2010.01.02 01:00 - Consciousness

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Kely :)
    KeLy Socke: hello
    Nymf Hathaway: Good morning Scathach :)
    Nymf Hathaway: and to you both HAPPY NEW YEAR :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: good morning Nymf:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: and Happy new Year to you too:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello kely, have you been here before, if I may ask?
    KeLy Socke: yes before 5 month ago
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Stevenaia and Bertrum :) happy new year :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Everyone.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah ok, then you know these chats are recorded and posted on a wiki?
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello steve, Bertrum:)
    KeLy Socke: no i wan't konw
    KeLy Socke: wasn't*
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, they are, so I have to ask if you give permission to be included in the logs?
    Scathach Rhiadra: so KeLy, do you give permission for your name and comments to be included?
    KeLy Socke: i don't know what u talkin about
    KeLy Socke: i'm sorry
    Zon Quar: heya
    Nymf Hathaway: Scath is telling you that everything we discuss will be placed on a website... would you like her to remove your name and words or not?
    Scathach Rhiadra: we record these discussions and post the logs toa a public wiki
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Zon :)
    KeLy Socke: it ok
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah ok, thank you
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Zon:)
    Nymf Hathaway: Are you Dutch Zon?
    Zon Quar: nope
    Nymf Hathaway: You know what Zon means?
    Zon Quar: yes- sun..lol
    Nymf Hathaway: oke :) nice
    Zon Quar: my dutch freinds have told me
    Scathach Rhiadra: so, has anyone a topic they would like to discuss?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'm in a 4:00 am listening mode for now
    Nymf Hathaway: :))
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Zon Quar: the importance of sleep ?
    Nymf Hathaway: hehhe
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'm sure I will undersatnd that shortly
    Zon Quar: lol
    Nymf Hathaway: :)
    Zon Quar: i have an interest..but its a tough one
    Zon Quar: consciousness
    stevenaia Michinaga: what's that..smiles
    Zon Quar: yes..that is waht i have been wondering about lately
    Zon Quar: what is that
    Nymf Hathaway: Being aware?
    stevenaia Michinaga: which also begs the question , what is Being without it?
    Zon Quar: does it require an object ?
    Zon Quar: and subject ?
    Zon Quar: both ?
    Nymf Hathaway: It just needs a brain
    stevenaia Michinaga: does Being require a "thing (us)(object) to be a thing (non-object) (subjet)
    Zon Quar: waht is brain ?
    Zon Quar: receiver ot emitter
    Nymf Hathaway: a part of being aware... or being a sleep
    stevenaia Michinaga: .....(loves talking in his sleep)
    Zon Quar: lol
    Nymf Hathaway: hehehhe
    Zon Quar: i told this is diddicult...
    Scathach Rhiadra wishes I could talk so well in her sleep
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Zon Quar: perhaps if we go on Steve will fall in sleep...
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, please help me
    Zon Quar: ok, here is one definition, tell me what u think
    stevenaia Michinaga: but I warn you, the fingers may still type
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: sleep typing
    Zon Quar: Consciousness is the capacity to relate self and other
    Scathach Rhiadra nods, interesting definition
    Zon Quar: wide isnt it
    stevenaia Michinaga: so animals have, birds have it, bugs have it?
    Zon Quar: nod, according to this definition
    stevenaia Michinaga: why not?
    Zon Quar: so u would have 3 factors in it
    Zon Quar: self
    Zon Quar: other
    Zon Quar: relation
    stevenaia Michinaga: ants form communities
    Zon Quar: they have certain kind of consciousness sure
    stevenaia Michinaga: communicate through language of sents
    stevenaia Michinaga: or bees through dance
    Zon Quar: or bacteria
    Nymf Hathaway: I am all for believing animals, plants and trees are aware... but I do not think you need to interact to be aware
    Zon Quar: hm
    Zon Quar: can u be aware without some kind of interaction ?
    Zon Quar: seeing
    Zon Quar: hearing
    Zon Quar: noticing
    Scathach Rhiadra: do we have to be self-conscious to be conscious?
    Nymf Hathaway: sensing
    Zon Quar: yes
    Zon Quar: what happens in sensing
    Zon Quar: self and other meet
    Zon Quar: via senses
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but do we have to know we are self concious?
    Zon Quar: hm
    stevenaia Michinaga: there may be things we are that we simply cannot see
    Zon Quar: according to that definition
    Zon Quar: there can be diffrent kind of relations
    Zon Quar: some clear
    Zon Quar: som vague
    Zon Quar: but a relation should be there
    Zon Quar: self and othere
    Zon Quar: in selc consciouness
    Zon Quar: who is aware of who
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps our perception of conciousness only touched on somethng
    stevenaia Michinaga: we just can;t see it
    stevenaia Michinaga: yet
    Nymf Hathaway: Thinking longer about your definition Zon... and I think you are right... when we would put a person into a white room without any contact with humans, plants or animals he would go crazy within a month
    Zon Quar: or start hallusinating
    Nymf Hathaway: yes
    Zon Quar: creating objects
    Zon Quar: talking to himself
    Zon Quar: like he would be the other
    Nymf Hathaway: yes... looking from that perspective I agree
    Nymf Hathaway: we need impressions... in one way or the other
    Zon Quar: but that was an intristing question..what is self consciousness ?
    Nymf Hathaway: Bertrum already fell a sleep :) just Steve and you are done Zon :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: are dreams a form of conciousness or something we do when uncoucious?
    stevenaia Michinaga: as I type in my sleep
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Zon Quar: according to that definition u cna have various degrees of consciousness
    Zon Quar: so in dreaming
    Zon Quar: u r conscious of ur dreams
    Zon Quar: but think them as real
    Zon Quar: so ur consciousness is not bright
    Zon Quar: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: so consciousness is both real and imagined?
    Nymf Hathaway: for a sleepy person you seem extremely awake Steve :))
    Zon Quar: well lets not take reality in discussion..its another dificult one..lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: freightening, trust me
    stevenaia Michinaga: then they aren;t related?
    Zon Quar: but dreams happen to u in ur state of consciousness so they msut be a real phenonenom
    stevenaia Michinaga: reality and consciousness
    Bertrum Quan: Need to log off. Happy New Year everyone!
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Bert
    Zon Quar: ditto Bert ã‹¡
    Scathach Rhiadra: the same to you Bertrum, have a good night:)
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye Bertrum :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: so Zon, are you saying something imagined is real?
    Nymf Hathaway: I hope not
    Zon Quar: a dream happens...so it is real as a dream
    Nymf Hathaway: oke
    stevenaia Michinaga: (whatever imagined it)
    Zon Quar: tha fact of dreamin
    stevenaia Michinaga: I deal in making the imagined real
    stevenaia Michinaga: daily
    stevenaia Michinaga: but yes, that;s another subject, I think
    Zon Quar: so u r creating objects of consciousness
    Nymf Hathaway: so what about schizofrenia?
    Zon Quar: i think its a natural state of human being
    stevenaia Michinaga: not I am tranforming ideas to physical objects
    stevenaia Michinaga: *no
    Zon Quar: ideas r also objects of self
    Zon Quar: not only physical objects
    Zon Quar: u think a thought
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Zon Quar: or notice one
    Zon Quar: there is u = self
    Zon Quar: thought = other than u
    Zon Quar: and thinking = relation
    Scathach Rhiadra: you could say there is an inward-facing consciousness and an out-ward facing consciousness, maybe just the same but appears different
    Zon Quar: can u elaboret ?
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Vertigo :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Vertigo
    Zon Quar: hi Vertigo
    Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
    stevenaia Michinaga: so is there a relationship between reality and consciousness/
    Scathach Rhiadra: the sense consciousnesses are outward facing, we sense things as though they are outside of our 'self'
    Vertigo Ethaniel: dont think ive met you guys yet, nice to meet you all
    Zon Quar: ditto Vertigo ã‹¡
    Nymf Hathaway: Nice meeting you Vertigo
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Vertigo
    Scathach Rhiadra: I think I have seen you here before Vertigo...
    Vertigo Ethaniel: and no - conciousness is our subjective experience of reality, based on input through our senses
    Vertigo Ethaniel: reality exists whether our conciousness detects it or not
    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds right but how do we know?
    Vertigo Ethaniel: we can never know whether what we experience is reality
    Zon Quar: Vertigo we have been discussion on a ceratin definition of consciousness
    Zon Quar: let me find it for u
    Zon Quar: Consciousness is the capacity to relate self and other
    Zon Quar: waht do u think ?
    Vertigo Ethaniel: hmmm
    Vertigo Ethaniel considers
    Zon Quar: so it all depends how we difen things..lol
    Zon Quar: define
    Vertigo Ethaniel: i think conciousness is more the sense of self, a state of self awareness
    Vertigo Ethaniel: it does not depend on outside factors
    Zon Quar: who is aware of who in self awareness ?
    Vertigo Ethaniel: whoops, missed that silence
    Vertigo Ethaniel: :)
    Zon Quar: me to,sry
    Nymf Hathaway: It only says you are into the topic :)
    Zon Quar: i have always wondered the self awareness
    Zon Quar: hpw kna subject be the object
    Zon Quar: and what is it if there is neither
    Zon Quar: is it awareness
    Zon Quar: or something else
    Zon Quar: words fail here...
    Vertigo Ethaniel: you have me thinking about the definition of god now
    Vertigo Ethaniel: whether its some elaborate program, and we are just data structures
    Vertigo Ethaniel: the sense of touch could just be a set of rules that define that sense
    Vertigo Ethaniel: ultimately, it is something we just cannot discover
    Zon Quar: and we r not selves at all ?
    Zon Quar: but parts of a larger self
    Zon Quar: or god
    Vertigo Ethaniel: well, perhaps, if you want to call it that
    Vertigo Ethaniel: i tend to believe that we are the universe poking a finger through reality to experience itself subjectively
    Vertigo Ethaniel: and the universe has many fingers :)
    Zon Quar: still..the fact we r conscious of this...is the most amazing thing in life to me
    Zon Quar: i am therfore i wonder
    Vertigo Ethaniel: of course
    Vertigo Ethaniel: we are imaginative and curious entities
    Zon Quar: which means to me the whole unversum is
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonder, as destroyers, that makes us defective
    Zon Quar: in away conscious
    Zon Quar: of itself
    Vertigo Ethaniel: maybe some part of the universe desires to experience destruction
    stevenaia Michinaga: opps, saw Avatar tonight, probably influencing my thoughts
    Zon Quar: destruction of old is needed to create new
    stevenaia Michinaga: stars do it w/o the benifit of consciousness
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Zon Quar: hm
    Nymf Hathaway: we think Steve... we do not really know
    Zon Quar: if all is conscious
    Zon Quar: depends on our definition that too
    Nymf Hathaway: The human brain is arrogant
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is part of the same system
    Zon Quar: if universe created human brain
    Zon Quar: it must be more intellignet
    Vertigo Ethaniel: no, i dont believe that the human brain is arrogant
    Vertigo Ethaniel: it is the individual conciousness that is arrogant, or not
    stevenaia Michinaga: so there is "something" dsigning the universe for a brain to exist?
    stevenaia Michinaga: or a star?
    stevenaia Michinaga: *designing
    Zon Quar: it exists
    Zon Quar: it has benn formed
    Zon Quar: its a fact
    Zon Quar: tha something can be defined as universe itself or god or emptyiness, but a brain si formed
    stevenaia Michinaga: are we too limiited so see... by who? simply because "it" hides or we cannot see
    Nymf Hathaway: (re-define: the humans who claim animals, universe etc isn't intelligent.. these are arrogant)
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders where the formulas for consciousness are?
    stevenaia Michinaga: we are busy defining the universer's workings
    Zon Quar: we r trying to do what cant be done..lol
    Zon Quar: bit it can be fun
    stevenaia Michinaga: and Iwas hoping to be asleep by now
    Zon Quar: hm..perhaps we should change the subject
    Zon Quar: what bores u steven most ?
    Vertigo Ethaniel: if we can figure this out, we have done better than all of science, ever
    Scathach Rhiadra nods, and it is our perceptions of its workings, maybe rather limited by our self-consciousness?
    stevenaia Michinaga: a lulliby
    Nymf Hathaway: Pema said... to get us to the next level...we just need to experience things from a different point of view.... think thats the case with this subject as well Zon
    Zon Quar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t894eGoymio
    Zon Quar: her is to steven
    Zon Quar: sleep well
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx ZOn
    Zon Quar: ã‹¡
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Steve, sleep well:)
    Zon Quar: yes..we r using intellect by using words
    Nymf Hathaway: My "have a good sleep, Stve" got lost in cyberspace :(
    Zon Quar: and it takes a bit more to experience
    Zon Quar: consciousness
    Vertigo Ethaniel: interesting discussion, im sorry i cant stay longer
    Vertigo Ethaniel: good night to you all, i must go
    Zon Quar: must run too
    Zon Quar: bye all
    Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye bye :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Namaste:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, have a good day nymf:0
    Nymf Hathaway: Wishing you the same :)

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