2010.01.02 01:00 - Consciousness

The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

Nymf Hathaway: Hello Kely :)
KeLy Socke: hello
Nymf Hathaway: Good morning Scathach :)
Nymf Hathaway: and to you both HAPPY NEW YEAR :))
Scathach Rhiadra: good morning Nymf:)
Scathach Rhiadra: and Happy new Year to you too:)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello kely, have you been here before, if I may ask?
KeLy Socke: yes before 5 month ago
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Stevenaia and Bertrum :) happy new year :)
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks
Bertrum Quan: Hi Everyone.
Scathach Rhiadra: ah ok, then you know these chats are recorded and posted on a wiki?
--BELL--
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello steve, Bertrum:)
KeLy Socke: no i wan't konw
KeLy Socke: wasn't*
Scathach Rhiadra: well, they are, so I have to ask if you give permission to be included in the logs?
Scathach Rhiadra: so KeLy, do you give permission for your name and comments to be included?
KeLy Socke: i don't know what u talkin about
KeLy Socke: i'm sorry
Zon Quar: heya
Nymf Hathaway: Scath is telling you that everything we discuss will be placed on a website... would you like her to remove your name and words or not?
Scathach Rhiadra: we record these discussions and post the logs toa a public wiki
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Zon :)
KeLy Socke: it ok
Scathach Rhiadra: ah ok, thank you
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Zon:)
Nymf Hathaway: Are you Dutch Zon?
Zon Quar: nope
Nymf Hathaway: You know what Zon means?
Zon Quar: yes- sun..lol
Nymf Hathaway: oke :) nice
Zon Quar: my dutch freinds have told me
Scathach Rhiadra: so, has anyone a topic they would like to discuss?
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm in a 4:00 am listening mode for now
Nymf Hathaway: :))
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Zon Quar: the importance of sleep ?
Nymf Hathaway: hehhe
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm sure I will undersatnd that shortly
Zon Quar: lol
Nymf Hathaway: :)
Zon Quar: i have an interest..but its a tough one
Zon Quar: consciousness
stevenaia Michinaga: what's that..smiles
Zon Quar: yes..that is waht i have been wondering about lately
Zon Quar: what is that
Nymf Hathaway: Being aware?
stevenaia Michinaga: which also begs the question , what is Being without it?
Zon Quar: does it require an object ?
Zon Quar: and subject ?
Zon Quar: both ?
Nymf Hathaway: It just needs a brain
stevenaia Michinaga: does Being require a "thing (us)(object) to be a thing (non-object) (subjet)
Zon Quar: waht is brain ?
Zon Quar: receiver ot emitter
Nymf Hathaway: a part of being aware... or being a sleep
stevenaia Michinaga: .....(loves talking in his sleep)
Zon Quar: lol
Nymf Hathaway: hehehhe
Zon Quar: i told this is diddicult...
--BELL--
Scathach Rhiadra wishes I could talk so well in her sleep
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
Zon Quar: perhaps if we go on Steve will fall in sleep...
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, please help me
Zon Quar: ok, here is one definition, tell me what u think
stevenaia Michinaga: but I warn you, the fingers may still type
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: sleep typing
Zon Quar: Consciousness is the capacity to relate self and other
Scathach Rhiadra nods, interesting definition
Zon Quar: wide isnt it
stevenaia Michinaga: so animals have, birds have it, bugs have it?
Zon Quar: nod, according to this definition
stevenaia Michinaga: why not?
Zon Quar: so u would have 3 factors in it
Zon Quar: self
Zon Quar: other
Zon Quar: relation
stevenaia Michinaga: ants form communities
Zon Quar: they have certain kind of consciousness sure
stevenaia Michinaga: communicate through language of sents
stevenaia Michinaga: or bees through dance
Zon Quar: or bacteria
Nymf Hathaway: I am all for believing animals, plants and trees are aware... but I do not think you need to interact to be aware
Zon Quar: hm
Zon Quar: can u be aware without some kind of interaction ?
Zon Quar: seeing
Zon Quar: hearing
Zon Quar: noticing
Scathach Rhiadra: do we have to be self-conscious to be conscious?
Nymf Hathaway: sensing
Zon Quar: yes
Zon Quar: what happens in sensing
Zon Quar: self and other meet
Zon Quar: via senses
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but do we have to know we are self concious?
Zon Quar: hm
stevenaia Michinaga: there may be things we are that we simply cannot see
Zon Quar: according to that definition
Zon Quar: there can be diffrent kind of relations
Zon Quar: some clear
Zon Quar: som vague
Zon Quar: but a relation should be there
Zon Quar: self and othere
Zon Quar: in selc consciouness
Zon Quar: who is aware of who
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps our perception of conciousness only touched on somethng
stevenaia Michinaga: we just can;t see it
stevenaia Michinaga: yet
Nymf Hathaway: Thinking longer about your definition Zon... and I think you are right... when we would put a person into a white room without any contact with humans, plants or animals he would go crazy within a month
Zon Quar: or start hallusinating
Nymf Hathaway: yes
Zon Quar: creating objects
Zon Quar: talking to himself
Zon Quar: like he would be the other
Nymf Hathaway: yes... looking from that perspective I agree
Nymf Hathaway: we need impressions... in one way or the other
Zon Quar: but that was an intristing question..what is self consciousness ?
Nymf Hathaway: Bertrum already fell a sleep :) just Steve and you are done Zon :)
stevenaia Michinaga: are dreams a form of conciousness or something we do when uncoucious?
stevenaia Michinaga: as I type in my sleep
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Zon Quar: according to that definition u cna have various degrees of consciousness
Zon Quar: so in dreaming
Zon Quar: u r conscious of ur dreams
Zon Quar: but think them as real
Zon Quar: so ur consciousness is not bright
Zon Quar: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: so consciousness is both real and imagined?
--BELL--
Nymf Hathaway: for a sleepy person you seem extremely awake Steve :))
Zon Quar: well lets not take reality in discussion..its another dificult one..lol
stevenaia Michinaga: freightening, trust me
stevenaia Michinaga: then they aren;t related?
Zon Quar: but dreams happen to u in ur state of consciousness so they msut be a real phenonenom
stevenaia Michinaga: reality and consciousness
Bertrum Quan: Need to log off. Happy New Year everyone!
stevenaia Michinaga: night Bert
Zon Quar: ditto Bert ã‹¡
Scathach Rhiadra: the same to you Bertrum, have a good night:)
Nymf Hathaway: Bye Bertrum :)
stevenaia Michinaga: so Zon, are you saying something imagined is real?
Nymf Hathaway: I hope not
Zon Quar: a dream happens...so it is real as a dream
Nymf Hathaway: oke
stevenaia Michinaga: (whatever imagined it)
Zon Quar: tha fact of dreamin
stevenaia Michinaga: I deal in making the imagined real
stevenaia Michinaga: daily
stevenaia Michinaga: but yes, that;s another subject, I think
Zon Quar: so u r creating objects of consciousness
Nymf Hathaway: so what about schizofrenia?
Zon Quar: i think its a natural state of human being
stevenaia Michinaga: not I am tranforming ideas to physical objects
stevenaia Michinaga: *no
Zon Quar: ideas r also objects of self
Zon Quar: not only physical objects
Zon Quar: u think a thought
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Zon Quar: or notice one
Zon Quar: there is u = self
Zon Quar: thought = other than u
Zon Quar: and thinking = relation
Scathach Rhiadra: you could say there is an inward-facing consciousness and an out-ward facing consciousness, maybe just the same but appears different
Zon Quar: can u elaboret ?
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Vertigo :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Vertigo
Zon Quar: hi Vertigo
Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
stevenaia Michinaga: so is there a relationship between reality and consciousness/
Scathach Rhiadra: the sense consciousnesses are outward facing, we sense things as though they are outside of our 'self'
Vertigo Ethaniel: dont think ive met you guys yet, nice to meet you all
Zon Quar: ditto Vertigo ã‹¡
Nymf Hathaway: Nice meeting you Vertigo
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Vertigo
Scathach Rhiadra: I think I have seen you here before Vertigo...
Vertigo Ethaniel: and no - conciousness is our subjective experience of reality, based on input through our senses
Vertigo Ethaniel: reality exists whether our conciousness detects it or not
stevenaia Michinaga: sounds right but how do we know?
Vertigo Ethaniel: we can never know whether what we experience is reality
Zon Quar: Vertigo we have been discussion on a ceratin definition of consciousness
Zon Quar: let me find it for u
Zon Quar: Consciousness is the capacity to relate self and other
Zon Quar: waht do u think ?
Vertigo Ethaniel: hmmm
Vertigo Ethaniel considers
Zon Quar: so it all depends how we difen things..lol
Zon Quar: define
--BELL--
Vertigo Ethaniel: i think conciousness is more the sense of self, a state of self awareness
Vertigo Ethaniel: it does not depend on outside factors
Zon Quar: who is aware of who in self awareness ?
Vertigo Ethaniel: whoops, missed that silence
Vertigo Ethaniel: :)
Zon Quar: me to,sry
Nymf Hathaway: It only says you are into the topic :)
Zon Quar: i have always wondered the self awareness
Zon Quar: hpw kna subject be the object
Zon Quar: and what is it if there is neither
Zon Quar: is it awareness
Zon Quar: or something else
Zon Quar: words fail here...
Vertigo Ethaniel: you have me thinking about the definition of god now
Vertigo Ethaniel: whether its some elaborate program, and we are just data structures
Vertigo Ethaniel: the sense of touch could just be a set of rules that define that sense
Vertigo Ethaniel: ultimately, it is something we just cannot discover
Zon Quar: and we r not selves at all ?
Zon Quar: but parts of a larger self
Zon Quar: or god
Vertigo Ethaniel: well, perhaps, if you want to call it that
Vertigo Ethaniel: i tend to believe that we are the universe poking a finger through reality to experience itself subjectively
Vertigo Ethaniel: and the universe has many fingers :)
Zon Quar: still..the fact we r conscious of this...is the most amazing thing in life to me
Zon Quar: i am therfore i wonder
Vertigo Ethaniel: of course
Vertigo Ethaniel: we are imaginative and curious entities
Zon Quar: which means to me the whole unversum is
stevenaia Michinaga: wonder, as destroyers, that makes us defective
Zon Quar: in away conscious
Zon Quar: of itself
Vertigo Ethaniel: maybe some part of the universe desires to experience destruction
stevenaia Michinaga: opps, saw Avatar tonight, probably influencing my thoughts
Zon Quar: destruction of old is needed to create new
stevenaia Michinaga: stars do it w/o the benifit of consciousness
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Zon Quar: hm
Nymf Hathaway: we think Steve... we do not really know
Zon Quar: if all is conscious
Zon Quar: depends on our definition that too
Nymf Hathaway: The human brain is arrogant
stevenaia Michinaga: it is part of the same system
Zon Quar: if universe created human brain
Zon Quar: it must be more intellignet
Vertigo Ethaniel: no, i dont believe that the human brain is arrogant
Vertigo Ethaniel: it is the individual conciousness that is arrogant, or not
stevenaia Michinaga: so there is "something" dsigning the universe for a brain to exist?
stevenaia Michinaga: or a star?
stevenaia Michinaga: *designing
Zon Quar: it exists
Zon Quar: it has benn formed
Zon Quar: its a fact
--BELL--
Zon Quar: tha something can be defined as universe itself or god or emptyiness, but a brain si formed
stevenaia Michinaga: are we too limiited so see... by who? simply because "it" hides or we cannot see
Nymf Hathaway: (re-define: the humans who claim animals, universe etc isn't intelligent.. these are arrogant)
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders where the formulas for consciousness are?
stevenaia Michinaga: we are busy defining the universer's workings
Zon Quar: we r trying to do what cant be done..lol
Zon Quar: bit it can be fun
stevenaia Michinaga: and Iwas hoping to be asleep by now
Zon Quar: hm..perhaps we should change the subject
Zon Quar: what bores u steven most ?
Vertigo Ethaniel: if we can figure this out, we have done better than all of science, ever
Scathach Rhiadra nods, and it is our perceptions of its workings, maybe rather limited by our self-consciousness?
stevenaia Michinaga: a lulliby
Nymf Hathaway: Pema said... to get us to the next level...we just need to experience things from a different point of view.... think thats the case with this subject as well Zon
Zon Quar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t894eGoymio
Zon Quar: her is to steven
Zon Quar: sleep well
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night
stevenaia Michinaga: thx ZOn
Zon Quar: ã‹¡
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Steve, sleep well:)
Zon Quar: yes..we r using intellect by using words
Nymf Hathaway: My "have a good sleep, Stve" got lost in cyberspace :(
Zon Quar: and it takes a bit more to experience
Zon Quar: consciousness
Vertigo Ethaniel: interesting discussion, im sorry i cant stay longer
Vertigo Ethaniel: good night to you all, i must go
Zon Quar: must run too
Zon Quar: bye all
Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
Nymf Hathaway: Bye bye :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Namaste:)
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, have a good day nymf:0
Nymf Hathaway: Wishing you the same :)