2010.01.04 01:00 - The darkness does not always need the light

Tarmel Udimo was on call, the comments are hers... When I arrived Nymf and Calvino were already there.

Nymf Hathaway: Good evening Tarmel :)

 

Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Tarmel

 

Tarmel Udimo: Hi Calvino & Nymf, sorry to be late:)

 

Tarmel Udimo: I have started a wonderful book, (again) called "The Light Inside the Dark"

 

Calvino Rabeni: The author?

 

Tarmel Udimo: do either of you know it?

 

Tarmel Udimo: John Tarrant

 

Nymf Hathaway: No... please tell us :)

 

Calvino Rabeni: What does this book bring to you ?

 

Tarmel Udimo: Well he's set up the idea that the soul and spirit are in fact different or can be used to nominate different aspects of the inner life

 

Tarmel Udimo: Its a rather nice idea because he suggests that the spirit is always turned to the light and yearning for 'home" however the 'soul' is the aspect that enjoys the day to day world

 

Tarmel Udimo: and it's a nice way to describe the pull that one always feels on the spiritual path

 

Tarmel Udimo: to be alive in the moment but also yearning to transcend it

 

Unfortuantley Nymf had to leave… but then Zon showed up and we got down ot a lovely chat about light and darkness...

Nymf Hathaway: (leaves quietly :( )

 

Calvino Rabeni: At first I thought I knew - it is the similar idea that I have been studying with a mythologist

 

Tarmel Udimo: oh that's interesting

 

Calvino Rabeni: http://mosaicstore.org/index.php?mai...a4793b36f83830

 

Calvino Rabeni: It is called "the light inside dark times"

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes looking now

 

Tarmel Udimo: sounds very similar

 

Tarmel Udimo: I wonder whose book came first?:)

 

Calvino Rabeni: It is a recorded thing - he is a speaker - I go to see his workshops

 

Tarmel Udimo: listening to the UTube now

 

Calvino Rabeni: He does some good work with "first nation" native american people, and other groups

 

Tarmel Udimo: OK, that's interesting

 

Tarmel Udimo: and you?

 

Calvino Rabeni: I have been learning about that issue for a while.

 

Calvino Rabeni: Maybe 3 years or so

 

Tarmel Udimo: soul & spirit?

 

Tarmel Udimo: of working with first nation people

 

Tarmel Udimo: *or

 

Calvino Rabeni: soul & spirit

 

Calvino Rabeni: I don't work with first nation people but sometimes have interactions and hope to learn a little

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods

 

Tarmel Udimo: I think for me looking at the pull I always feel towards spirit, but knowing I need to also engage with soul makes things easier

 

Zon Quar: hi guys

 

Calvino Rabeni: Hello Zon

 

Zon Quar: quiet...

 

Tarmel Udimo: Hi Zon:)

 

Tarmel Udimo: I don't think we have met before?

 

Zon Quar: hi Tarmel, no i dont think so, nice to meet u Tarmel Udimo: Likewise:)

 

Zon Quar: r u new here ?

 

Tarmel Udimo: we are discussing spirit, & soul and mythology

 

Tarmel Udimo: no I have been in PaB for about a year, if not a little longer

 

Calvino Rabeni: Soul is harder for people to think about in modern times

 

Zon Quar: ah..perhaps different time zone then..lol

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes….

 

Zon Quar: hm soul

 

Zon Quar: difference between soul and spirit is ?

 

Tarmel Udimo: and yet Calvino, John talks about the soul being the doorway to being more fully engaged

 

Tarmel Udimo: in the modern world

 

Calvino Rabeni: There is also a catholic / celtic philosopher who talks about it more from the christian side

 

Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/John-ODonohue/.../ref=sr_tc_2_0

 

Calvino Rabeni: http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.o...ue/index.shtml

 

Tarmel Udimo: this is what triggered the discussion we are having Zon

 

Calvino Rabeni: Depending on your background, different approaches may be helpful to the topic

 

Calvino Rabeni: At one time I could not make the distinction - I was mostly scientific

 

Zon Quar: what does it tell about Tramel ?

 

Calvino Rabeni: I had the same question - what is the difference?

 

Calvino Rabeni: Actually I couldn't distinguish either, never mind the difference

 

Tarmel Udimo: http://www.spiritualityandpractice.c...ks.php?id=1920

 

Tarmel Udimo: a review of the book

 

Zon Quar: i think the christian doctrine doesn’t make that difference clear

 

Calvino Rabeni: That's a good web site, I like their movie reviews

 

Zon Quar: soul- spirit

 

Calvino Rabeni: spirit is a high and light energy, wants to transcend

 

Calvino Rabeni: soul is a deep, dark, slow energy, in which many things are hidden

 

Calvino Rabeni: like the womb

 

Calvino Rabeni: it is a source and safekeeping of things

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes this is the approach the book takes

 

Zon Quar: the book sounds interesting

 

Calvino Rabeni: soul is yin, spirit is yang

 

Zon Quar: ive been thinking about darkness too lately

 

Zon Quar: the inevitability of it

 

Calvino Rabeni: yes, most of the universe is dark

 

Zon Quar: and the way it is interlinked to light

 

Zon Quar: part of the same pulse

 

Calvino Rabeni: dark is the background out of which light arises

 

Calvino Rabeni: the insides of things are dark

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes its like looking at the play of shadows and knowing that they are created by light

 

Calvino Rabeni: the soul has depth

 

Calvino Rabeni: the spirit, insofar as it is associated with light, focuses more on surfaces

 

Tarmel Udimo: and the spirit doesn't have depth?

 

Zon Quar: so souls is the attraction of matter..

 

Calvino Rabeni: height?

 

Calvino Rabeni: The soul does not mind permeating matter -

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods

 

Calvino Rabeni: it is willing to be present no matter what

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods agree

 

Zon Quar: and as there is no matter..it’s a force

 

Tarmel Udimo: agree

 

Calvino Rabeni: the soul safeguards treasures

 

Tarmel Udimo: I think it’s also about being able to hold two states of being at the same time

 

Calvino Rabeni: soul often seems less personal to people, more universal, more shared

 

Calvino Rabeni: but that might be about people's habits, not about the nature of sould

 

Tarmel Udimo: we can experience both

 

Tarmel Udimo: what do you think Zon?

 

Zon Quar: there r many definitions of soul

 

Zon Quar: one might be

 

Zon Quar: spirit is common to all

 

Zon Quar: one spirit exists only

 

Calvino Rabeni: The modern times emphasize spirit over soul, for various reasons, it is somewhat imbalanced

 

Zon Quar: and we r souls

 

Zon Quar: sparks

 

Zon Quar: of that spirit

 

Zon Quar: that way souls could be regarded as separate higher ego, a kind of higher personality, separate from spirit

 

Zon Quar: but it depends, on how we want to define it

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods

 

Tarmel Udimo: ultimately it comes down to an experience of reality

 

Calvino Rabeni: Many cultures mythologize soul as underworld, under the earth, and spirit as overworld, up in the sky

 

Tarmel Udimo: a way to deal with existing

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes they do Calvino, I guess I am enjoying Tarrents approach because it doesn't say one is dark and the other light…

 

Calvino Rabeni: It depends on "what it is" as well as "how we want to define it"

 

Tarmel Udimo: well yes

 

Tarmel Udimo: sure

 

Calvino Rabeni: what else to you get from Tarrent about this, tarmel?

 

Tarmel Udimo: we can keep defining or we can engage in a discussion about our experiencesJ

 

Calvino Rabeni: no more defining, please :)

 

Tarmel Udimo: tks:)

 

Tarmel Udimo: I think most people on the path go through a stage, where to be spiritual means to only be in 'spirit'

 

Calvino Rabeni: In your experience, what do you *do* to be more in touch with soul, or to have more, or whatever?

 

Zon Quar: nods

 

Tarmel Udimo: the pull to solitude, the pull to aloneness with spirit

 

Zon Quar: nods again

 

Calvino Rabeni: It seems easier, at a certain stage, to do "spirit" work

 

Tarmel Udimo: the pull towards the source

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods

 

Zon Quar: natural development on the path

 

Calvino Rabeni: People who are afraid of the dark inside themselves, will prefer spirit

 

Tarmel Udimo: but perhaps it is about pulling spirit down into the mundane

 

Zon Quar: i think at first...

 

Tarmel Udimo: I agree Zon, but so hard to do:)

 

Zon Quar: u should be pulled by spirit

 

Calvino Rabeni: After they have done some growth, they will feel ok to explore there

 

Tarmel Udimo: darkness of self Calvino?

 

Zon Quar: only that way u get the perspective

 

Calvino Rabeni: yes

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods

 

Calvino Rabeni: or of others

 

Zon Quar: but then

 

Zon Quar: when u r strong enough

 

Zon Quar: u face that darkness

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes, and then?

 

Zon Quar: then u smile

 

Tarmel Udimo: :))))))))))

 

Zon Quar: u see it is a play of hide and seek

 

Zon Quar: and u start to enjoy it

 

Tarmel Udimo: do you - enjoy it?

 

Zon Quar: I’m learning

 

Zon Quar: lol

 

Zon Quar: not always

 

Tarmel Udimo: hehehe

 

Zon Quar: lol

 

Zon Quar: and when not

 

Zon Quar: its good to go to spirit again

 

Zon Quar: lol

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes well it’s the final moment isn't it

 

Zon Quar: hm

 

Zon Quar: I’m not sure of the finality

 

Tarmel Udimo: the final breath

 

Zon Quar: i don’t think there is an end

 

Tarmel Udimo: well you and I and Calvino will cease to exist

 

Zon Quar: no

 

Zon Quar: we have been here before

 

Zon Quar: we will be here after

 

Zon Quar: on and on

 

Zon Quar: and on

 

Tarmel Udimo: Perhaps an aspect of the life spark will be, but not you or I or Calvino as we know ourselves now

 

Zon Quar: nods...

 

Zon Quar: but who r we

 

Tarmel Udimo: I no longer have answers for the question of who are we?

 

Tarmel Udimo: what do you think Calvino?

 

Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about how, not so much about ultimates like that

 

Calvino Rabeni: Carl Jung was wise about these themes

 

Calvino Rabeni: He was not afraid to look at soul, unlike others of his time

 

Zon Quar: yes the question of how is more interesting

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods

 

Calvino Rabeni: One Junq quote is: ‘Enlightenment is not imagining figures of light but making the darkness conscious.’

 

Calvino Rabeni: Jung made it ok to go INTO the dark to study soul

 

Calvino Rabeni: I used to believe that approach

 

Calvino Rabeni: Now I think, it favors "light" too much.

 

Calvino Rabeni: There are many who read Jung as saying - we should shine a light into every dark corner

 

Calvino Rabeni: I don't believe that any more

 

Calvino Rabeni: There are aspects of the dark that do not want to be disturbed

 

Calvino Rabeni: They are fertile places

 

Calvino Rabeni: Like, the dark soil, where seeds must germinate

 

Calvino Rabeni: They could not grow, if they were not sheltered there first

 

Calvino Rabeni: Only later parts of the plant reach out of the dark into the light

 

Calvino Rabeni: But plants are half in the dark always.

 

Calvino Rabeni: I think this metaphor is true for all living things

 

Tarmel Udimo: interesting point

 

Tarmel Udimo: and can we relate that to us humans, we don't need to dig as much as we do?

 

Tarmel Udimo: we should keep aspects of ourselves in darkness?

 

Zon Quar: to me life is interaction between light and dark, so darkness must always be there, but the relationship changes all the time

 

Calvino Rabeni: I think, yes

 

Tarmel Udimo: or is it about trust?

 

Calvino Rabeni: yes that too, but what do you have in mind?

 

Tarmel Udimo: well perhaps we need to trust ourselves, our instincts more without the need for knowing,

 

Zon Quar: i think we cant hold things in darkness ultimately ..they will pop up

 

Tarmel Udimo: just a thought

 

Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense Tarmel

 

Zon Quar: eventually

 

Zon Quar: we can prolong it

 

Zon Quar: but not stop

 

Tarmel Udimo: I don't mean hiding things away,

 

Calvino Rabeni: Coming back to personal experience - may I ask, what do you do to become more soulful or more aware of it?

 

Tarmel Udimo: I mean allowing things to unfold without needing to know (ie light them up)

 

Calvino Rabeni: How would you make use of knowledge of soul, in practice?

 

Zon Quar: i look at my dark sides

 

Calvino Rabeni: I agree trust is part of it

 

Zon Quar: as i trust there is nothing wrong in me

 

Tarmel Udimo: and are they really dark Zon

 

Zon Quar: no

 

Zon Quar: but when they come to light

 

Calvino Rabeni: That is an enabling assumption zon

 

Zon Quar: they disappear

 

Calvino Rabeni: not to make it wrong

 

Calvino Rabeni: And what if they don't disappear? Must every dark thing yield to light?

 

Zon Quar: yes

 

Zon Quar: if u light the light

 

Zon Quar: the darkness disappears

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes that is a nice statement: trusting there is nothing wrong with oneself:)

 

Zon Quar: try it in a room

 

Zon Quar: switch on the lamp

 

Calvino Rabeni: In my understanding, I would say that is a preference

 

Calvino Rabeni: preference for light, which I think is a modern bias

 

Tarmel Udimo: do you think it is a 'trained' preference

 

Calvino Rabeni: my own practice is, not to play favorites

 

Zon Quar: to me its not a preference

 

Calvino Rabeni: I think its taught by culture

 

Zon Quar: its the way things are

 

Calvino Rabeni: Interesting difference

 

Tarmel Udimo: yes very

 

Calvino Rabeni: In the USA, there were a lot of christian churches that "sanitized" their bibles, hymn books, and language

 

Tarmel Udimo: it seems that way because the light (day) always follows the night

 

Calvino Rabeni: they wanted to take out all the darkness

 

Zon Quar: nods

 

Zon Quar: that is a bias

 

Calvino Rabeni: It made a "feel-good" approach, but I don't think it served people well in being part of reality

 

Zon Quar: i dont mean that

 

Zon Quar: but more like a law of nature like gravity

 

Zon Quar: we can use these laws

 

Calvino Rabeni: so they had some preference - I'm not saying I think you do zon

 

Zon Quar: but they exist

 

Tarmel Udimo: I find fundamentalism of any kind self serving

 

Calvino Rabeni: they wanted everything more light and easy

 

Calvino Rabeni: It seemed like a kind of fundamentalism I suppose Tarmel

 

Zon Quar: I’m thinking of the play of night and day.....when sunlight comes darkness disappears.. the night comes again...

 

Zon Quar: later

 

Calvino Rabeni: it moves from one to the other and back again

 

Zon Quar: yes

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods

 

Zon Quar: but following certain laws

 

Calvino Rabeni: Often times people who have a preference for light over dark, act like they also think gravity and friction are bad things in some way

 

Tarmel Udimo: nods..

 

Tarmel Udimo: once again this has been a wonderful chat

 

Tarmel Udimo: I must go and have dinner

 

Zon Quar: me to ..back to work

 

Tarmel Udimo: I have claimed the log, but pls feel free to continue

 

Zon Quar: bye all

 

Tarmel Udimo: nice to meet you Zon

 

Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, both of you :)

 

Zon Quar: ty

 

Tarmel Udimo: and tks for the in-depth chat:)

 

Tarmel Udimo: see you all next time

 

Calvino Rabeni: YVW Tarmel :)