2010.01.04 01:00 - The darkness does not always need the light

    Table of contents
    No headers

    Tarmel Udimo was on call, the comments are hers... When I arrived Nymf and Calvino were already there.



    Nymf Hathaway: Good evening Tarmel :)


    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Tarmel


    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Calvino & Nymf, sorry to be late:)


    Tarmel Udimo: I have started a wonderful book, (again) called "The Light Inside the Dark"


    Calvino Rabeni: The author?


    Tarmel Udimo: do either of you know it?


    Tarmel Udimo: John Tarrant


    Nymf Hathaway: No... please tell us :)


    Calvino Rabeni: What does this book bring to you ?


    Tarmel Udimo: Well he's set up the idea that the soul and spirit are in fact different or can be used to nominate different aspects of the inner life


    Tarmel Udimo: Its a rather nice idea because he suggests that the spirit is always turned to the light and yearning for 'home" however the 'soul' is the aspect that enjoys the day to day world


    Tarmel Udimo: and it's a nice way to describe the pull that one always feels on the spiritual path


    Tarmel Udimo: to be alive in the moment but also yearning to transcend it



    Unfortuantley Nymf had to leave… but then Zon showed up and we got down ot a lovely chat about light and darkness...


    Nymf Hathaway: (leaves quietly :( )


    Calvino Rabeni: At first I thought I knew - it is the similar idea that I have been studying with a mythologist


    Tarmel Udimo: oh that's interesting


    Calvino Rabeni: http://mosaicstore.org/index.php?mai...a4793b36f83830


    Calvino Rabeni: It is called "the light inside dark times"


    Tarmel Udimo: yes looking now


    Tarmel Udimo: sounds very similar


    Tarmel Udimo: I wonder whose book came first?:)


    Calvino Rabeni: It is a recorded thing - he is a speaker - I go to see his workshops


    Tarmel Udimo: listening to the UTube now


    Calvino Rabeni: He does some good work with "first nation" native american people, and other groups


    Tarmel Udimo: OK, that's interesting


    Tarmel Udimo: and you?


    Calvino Rabeni: I have been learning about that issue for a while.


    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe 3 years or so


    Tarmel Udimo: soul & spirit?


    Tarmel Udimo: of working with first nation people


    Tarmel Udimo: *or


    Calvino Rabeni: soul & spirit


    Calvino Rabeni: I don't work with first nation people but sometimes have interactions and hope to learn a little


    Tarmel Udimo: nods


    Tarmel Udimo: I think for me looking at the pull I always feel towards spirit, but knowing I need to also engage with soul makes things easier


    Zon Quar: hi guys


    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Zon


    Zon Quar: quiet...


    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Zon:)


    Tarmel Udimo: I don't think we have met before?


    Zon Quar: hi Tarmel, no i dont think so, nice to meet u Tarmel Udimo: Likewise:)


    Zon Quar: r u new here ?


    Tarmel Udimo: we are discussing spirit, & soul and mythology


    Tarmel Udimo: no I have been in PaB for about a year, if not a little longer


    Calvino Rabeni: Soul is harder for people to think about in modern times


    Zon Quar: ah..perhaps different time zone then..lol


    Tarmel Udimo: yes….


    Zon Quar: hm soul


    Zon Quar: difference between soul and spirit is ?


    Tarmel Udimo: and yet Calvino, John talks about the soul being the doorway to being more fully engaged


    Tarmel Udimo: in the modern world


    Calvino Rabeni: There is also a catholic / celtic philosopher who talks about it more from the christian side


    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/John-ODonohue/.../ref=sr_tc_2_0


    Calvino Rabeni: http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.o...ue/index.shtml


    Tarmel Udimo: this is what triggered the discussion we are having Zon


    Calvino Rabeni: Depending on your background, different approaches may be helpful to the topic


    Calvino Rabeni: At one time I could not make the distinction - I was mostly scientific


    Zon Quar: what does it tell about Tramel ?


    Calvino Rabeni: I had the same question - what is the difference?


    Calvino Rabeni: Actually I couldn't distinguish either, never mind the difference


    Tarmel Udimo: http://www.spiritualityandpractice.c...ks.php?id=1920


    Tarmel Udimo: a review of the book


    Zon Quar: i think the christian doctrine doesn’t make that difference clear


    Calvino Rabeni: That's a good web site, I like their movie reviews


    Zon Quar: soul- spirit


    Calvino Rabeni: spirit is a high and light energy, wants to transcend


    Calvino Rabeni: soul is a deep, dark, slow energy, in which many things are hidden


    Calvino Rabeni: like the womb


    Calvino Rabeni: it is a source and safekeeping of things


    Tarmel Udimo: yes this is the approach the book takes


    Zon Quar: the book sounds interesting


    Calvino Rabeni: soul is yin, spirit is yang


    Zon Quar: ive been thinking about darkness too lately


    Zon Quar: the inevitability of it


    Calvino Rabeni: yes, most of the universe is dark


    Zon Quar: and the way it is interlinked to light


    Zon Quar: part of the same pulse


    Calvino Rabeni: dark is the background out of which light arises


    Calvino Rabeni: the insides of things are dark


    Tarmel Udimo: yes its like looking at the play of shadows and knowing that they are created by light


    Calvino Rabeni: the soul has depth


    Calvino Rabeni: the spirit, insofar as it is associated with light, focuses more on surfaces


    Tarmel Udimo: and the spirit doesn't have depth?


    Zon Quar: so souls is the attraction of matter..


    Calvino Rabeni: height?


    Calvino Rabeni: The soul does not mind permeating matter -


    Tarmel Udimo: nods


    Calvino Rabeni: it is willing to be present no matter what


    Tarmel Udimo: nods agree


    Zon Quar: and as there is no matter..it’s a force


    Tarmel Udimo: agree


    Calvino Rabeni: the soul safeguards treasures


    Tarmel Udimo: I think it’s also about being able to hold two states of being at the same time


    Calvino Rabeni: soul often seems less personal to people, more universal, more shared


    Calvino Rabeni: but that might be about people's habits, not about the nature of sould


    Tarmel Udimo: we can experience both


    Tarmel Udimo: what do you think Zon?


    Zon Quar: there r many definitions of soul


    Zon Quar: one might be


    Zon Quar: spirit is common to all


    Zon Quar: one spirit exists only


    Calvino Rabeni: The modern times emphasize spirit over soul, for various reasons, it is somewhat imbalanced


    Zon Quar: and we r souls


    Zon Quar: sparks


    Zon Quar: of that spirit


    Zon Quar: that way souls could be regarded as separate higher ego, a kind of higher personality, separate from spirit


    Zon Quar: but it depends, on how we want to define it


    Tarmel Udimo: nods


    Tarmel Udimo: ultimately it comes down to an experience of reality


    Calvino Rabeni: Many cultures mythologize soul as underworld, under the earth, and spirit as overworld, up in the sky


    Tarmel Udimo: a way to deal with existing


    Tarmel Udimo: yes they do Calvino, I guess I am enjoying Tarrents approach because it doesn't say one is dark and the other light…


    Calvino Rabeni: It depends on "what it is" as well as "how we want to define it"


    Tarmel Udimo: well yes


    Tarmel Udimo: sure


    Calvino Rabeni: what else to you get from Tarrent about this, tarmel?


    Tarmel Udimo: we can keep defining or we can engage in a discussion about our experiencesJ


    Calvino Rabeni: no more defining, please :)


    Tarmel Udimo: tks:)


    Tarmel Udimo: I think most people on the path go through a stage, where to be spiritual means to only be in 'spirit'


    Calvino Rabeni: In your experience, what do you *do* to be more in touch with soul, or to have more, or whatever?


    Zon Quar: nods


    Tarmel Udimo: the pull to solitude, the pull to aloneness with spirit


    Zon Quar: nods again


    Calvino Rabeni: It seems easier, at a certain stage, to do "spirit" work


    Tarmel Udimo: the pull towards the source


    Tarmel Udimo: nods


    Zon Quar: natural development on the path


    Calvino Rabeni: People who are afraid of the dark inside themselves, will prefer spirit


    Tarmel Udimo: but perhaps it is about pulling spirit down into the mundane


    Zon Quar: i think at first...


    Tarmel Udimo: I agree Zon, but so hard to do:)


    Zon Quar: u should be pulled by spirit


    Calvino Rabeni: After they have done some growth, they will feel ok to explore there


    Tarmel Udimo: darkness of self Calvino?


    Zon Quar: only that way u get the perspective


    Calvino Rabeni: yes


    Tarmel Udimo: nods


    Calvino Rabeni: or of others


    Zon Quar: but then


    Zon Quar: when u r strong enough


    Zon Quar: u face that darkness


    Tarmel Udimo: yes, and then?


    Zon Quar: then u smile


    Tarmel Udimo: :))))))))))


    Zon Quar: u see it is a play of hide and seek


    Zon Quar: and u start to enjoy it


    Tarmel Udimo: do you - enjoy it?


    Zon Quar: I’m learning


    Zon Quar: lol


    Zon Quar: not always


    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe


    Zon Quar: lol


    Zon Quar: and when not


    Zon Quar: its good to go to spirit again


    Zon Quar: lol


    Tarmel Udimo: nods


    Tarmel Udimo: yes well it’s the final moment isn't it


    Zon Quar: hm


    Zon Quar: I’m not sure of the finality


    Tarmel Udimo: the final breath


    Zon Quar: i don’t think there is an end


    Tarmel Udimo: well you and I and Calvino will cease to exist


    Zon Quar: no


    Zon Quar: we have been here before


    Zon Quar: we will be here after


    Zon Quar: on and on


    Zon Quar: and on


    Tarmel Udimo: Perhaps an aspect of the life spark will be, but not you or I or Calvino as we know ourselves now


    Zon Quar: nods...


    Zon Quar: but who r we


    Tarmel Udimo: I no longer have answers for the question of who are we?


    Tarmel Udimo: what do you think Calvino?


    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about how, not so much about ultimates like that


    Calvino Rabeni: Carl Jung was wise about these themes


    Calvino Rabeni: He was not afraid to look at soul, unlike others of his time


    Zon Quar: yes the question of how is more interesting


    Tarmel Udimo: nods


    Calvino Rabeni: One Junq quote is: ‘Enlightenment is not imagining figures of light but making the darkness conscious.’


    Calvino Rabeni: Jung made it ok to go INTO the dark to study soul


    Calvino Rabeni: I used to believe that approach


    Calvino Rabeni: Now I think, it favors "light" too much.


    Calvino Rabeni: There are many who read Jung as saying - we should shine a light into every dark corner


    Calvino Rabeni: I don't believe that any more


    Calvino Rabeni: There are aspects of the dark that do not want to be disturbed


    Calvino Rabeni: They are fertile places


    Calvino Rabeni: Like, the dark soil, where seeds must germinate


    Calvino Rabeni: They could not grow, if they were not sheltered there first


    Calvino Rabeni: Only later parts of the plant reach out of the dark into the light


    Calvino Rabeni: But plants are half in the dark always.


    Calvino Rabeni: I think this metaphor is true for all living things


    Tarmel Udimo: interesting point


    Tarmel Udimo: and can we relate that to us humans, we don't need to dig as much as we do?


    Tarmel Udimo: we should keep aspects of ourselves in darkness?


    Zon Quar: to me life is interaction between light and dark, so darkness must always be there, but the relationship changes all the time


    Calvino Rabeni: I think, yes


    Tarmel Udimo: or is it about trust?


    Calvino Rabeni: yes that too, but what do you have in mind?


    Tarmel Udimo: well perhaps we need to trust ourselves, our instincts more without the need for knowing,


    Zon Quar: i think we cant hold things in darkness ultimately ..they will pop up


    Tarmel Udimo: just a thought


    Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense Tarmel


    Zon Quar: eventually


    Zon Quar: we can prolong it


    Zon Quar: but not stop


    Tarmel Udimo: I don't mean hiding things away,


    Calvino Rabeni: Coming back to personal experience - may I ask, what do you do to become more soulful or more aware of it?


    Tarmel Udimo: I mean allowing things to unfold without needing to know (ie light them up)


    Calvino Rabeni: How would you make use of knowledge of soul, in practice?


    Zon Quar: i look at my dark sides


    Calvino Rabeni: I agree trust is part of it


    Zon Quar: as i trust there is nothing wrong in me


    Tarmel Udimo: and are they really dark Zon


    Zon Quar: no


    Zon Quar: but when they come to light


    Calvino Rabeni: That is an enabling assumption zon


    Zon Quar: they disappear


    Calvino Rabeni: not to make it wrong


    Calvino Rabeni: And what if they don't disappear? Must every dark thing yield to light?


    Zon Quar: yes


    Zon Quar: if u light the light


    Zon Quar: the darkness disappears


    Tarmel Udimo: yes that is a nice statement: trusting there is nothing wrong with oneself:)


    Zon Quar: try it in a room


    Zon Quar: switch on the lamp


    Calvino Rabeni: In my understanding, I would say that is a preference


    Calvino Rabeni: preference for light, which I think is a modern bias


    Tarmel Udimo: do you think it is a 'trained' preference


    Calvino Rabeni: my own practice is, not to play favorites


    Zon Quar: to me its not a preference


    Calvino Rabeni: I think its taught by culture


    Zon Quar: its the way things are


    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting difference


    Tarmel Udimo: yes very


    Calvino Rabeni: In the USA, there were a lot of christian churches that "sanitized" their bibles, hymn books, and language


    Tarmel Udimo: it seems that way because the light (day) always follows the night


    Calvino Rabeni: they wanted to take out all the darkness


    Zon Quar: nods


    Zon Quar: that is a bias


    Calvino Rabeni: It made a "feel-good" approach, but I don't think it served people well in being part of reality


    Zon Quar: i dont mean that


    Zon Quar: but more like a law of nature like gravity


    Zon Quar: we can use these laws


    Calvino Rabeni: so they had some preference - I'm not saying I think you do zon


    Zon Quar: but they exist


    Tarmel Udimo: I find fundamentalism of any kind self serving


    Calvino Rabeni: they wanted everything more light and easy


    Calvino Rabeni: It seemed like a kind of fundamentalism I suppose Tarmel


    Zon Quar: I’m thinking of the play of night and day.....when sunlight comes darkness disappears.. the night comes again...


    Zon Quar: later


    Calvino Rabeni: it moves from one to the other and back again


    Zon Quar: yes


    Tarmel Udimo: nods


    Zon Quar: but following certain laws


    Calvino Rabeni: Often times people who have a preference for light over dark, act like they also think gravity and friction are bad things in some way


    Tarmel Udimo: nods..


    Tarmel Udimo: once again this has been a wonderful chat


    Tarmel Udimo: I must go and have dinner


    Zon Quar: me to ..back to work


    Tarmel Udimo: I have claimed the log, but pls feel free to continue


    Zon Quar: bye all


    Tarmel Udimo: nice to meet you Zon


    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, both of you :)


    Zon Quar: ty


    Tarmel Udimo: and tks for the in-depth chat:)


    Tarmel Udimo: see you all next time


    Calvino Rabeni: YVW Tarmel :)






    Tag page (Edit tags)
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core