2010.01.06 01:00 - real - more real

The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

The question about what is truth - finally solved ;))

    Bolonath Crystal: namaste flux
    Flux Constantine: namaste
    Bolonath Crystal: how r u this morning?
    Flux Constantine: pretty good... you?
    Bolonath Crystal: thx. still alive *g*
    Bolonath Crystal: any new experiences with YSBS?
    Flux Constantine: not sure. one thing I notice, though, is that I tend to notice the 15-minute intervals almost automatically
    Bolonath Crystal: great. the power of rehearse :)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal
    Calvino Rabeni: namaste bolo and flux
    Flux Constantine: hello
    Flux Constantine: can I switch my av's sitting posture?
    Calvino Rabeni: If you click the pillow it changes
    Flux Constantine: ah, thanks
    Flux Constantine: Calvino, what is the thing that says 'Being As Play' above your head? some kind of tag?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is a hover text
    Calvino Rabeni: A script object
    --BELL--

 it started with a song...

    Bolonath Crystal: any special themes today?
    Flux Constantine: "everything you said was true, but I couldn't prove it"
    Calvino Rabeni: I did a theme session earlier today, but now I feel like following what happens
    Bolonath Crystal: maybe you like to tell something about your quote, flux. at the moment i can't make much of it, i'm afraid
    Flux Constantine: just a song I was playing in another window... regina spektor
    Bolonath Crystal: oic
    Bolonath Crystal: do you think, truth can always be proved?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not according to logic, I've heard
    Flux Constantine: no...
    Flux Constantine: but maybe trying, even though it's impossible, is important somehow
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm not even really sure what 'truth' is
  Zon Quar: heya
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste zon

definitions of truth

    Flux Constantine: beauty is truth, and truth beauty... that is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know :)
    Mei Yiyuan: truth cannot be definitive anyway. There will always be a new consideration to change its meaning
    Calvino Rabeni: smart
    Bolonath Crystal: that means, truth is what we think it is...
    Calvino Rabeni: Flux runs off to catch Mei
    Qt Core: hi all
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste qt
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Qt,Zon
    --BELL--
    Zon Quar: Truth can have a variety of meanings, from the state of being the case, being in accord with a particular fact or reality, being in accord with the body of real things, events, actuality, or fidelity to an original or to a standard. In archaic usage it could be fidelity, constancy or sincerity in action, character, and utterance.[1] The term has no single definition about which a majority of professional philosophers and scholars agree, and various theories and views of truth continue to be debated.
    Zon Quar: ops
    Zon Quar: so what is truth, asked Pilates form Jesus
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing seems true, that truth isn't what it used to be.
    Zon Quar: one could say truth is what works
    Zon Quar: or truth is what is permanent
    Zon Quar: hm..im lost
    Calvino Rabeni: Which is nothing?
    Bolonath Crystal: that's about what indian philosophy says about truth, zon
    Zon Quar: which one ?
    Zon Quar: permant ?
    Bolonath Crystal: truth is what is permanent
    Zon Quar: makes sense
    Bolonath Crystal: things which exist temporarily don't exist at all
    Zon Quar: even dreams r real, but not always very lasting
    Zon Quar: i think they exist
    Zon Quar: but only short time
    Zon Quar: lol
    Bolonath Crystal: well, indian philosophers came to the conclusion that 'being' - or 'brahman - is the only true thing
    Zon Quar: nods...it is permanent
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems to make the word more or less useless
    Zon Quar: but thislife we live is true too in a sense
    Zon Quar: if i hit my toe on a rock
    Zon Quar: the hurt is really there
    Zon Quar: try it
    Zon Quar: but only little while
    Bolonath Crystal: only if the perception is not an illusion...
    Zon Quar: it is there..but it is not waht it seems to be..i think
    Zon Quar: bit it is
    Bolonath Crystal: it might be like watcheing a movie. the movie is there, but the contents of the movie are illusion
    Zon Quar: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: why make such a distinction?
    Bolonath Crystal: just like real life *g*
    Zon Quar: An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation.
    Bolonath Crystal: this distinction may be helpful to find out about the nature of 'being', cal
    Calvino Rabeni: why make the distinction of "being" then :)
    Bolonath Crystal: *smile* why not, cal? that's part of the 'divine play'
    Zon Quar: nods
    Zon Quar: its the nature of things
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste zen
    Calvino Rabeni: Just for fun, so, there could be arbitrary levels created
    Zen Arado: namaste
    Zon Quar: nods..i guess so
   Zen Arado: Hi all
    Zon Quar: hi zen
    Calvino Rabeni: So why say the contents are less "real" than the movie?
    Calvino Rabeni: Why not be an "equal opportunity" ontologist?
    Bolonath Crystal nods to calvino
    Zon Quar: we make the distinction temporary - permanent
    Bolonath Crystal: things are real for us, if they have the same 'reality level' as we have
    Zon Quar: in our mind
    Zon Quar: real - more real
    --BELL--
    Zen Arado: we make our own reality
    Bolonath Crystal: that's exactly what i think, zen
    Bolonath Crystal: we create universes

realism vs. anti-realism

    Zen Arado: you know the realism - anti_realism debate in philosophy?
    Zon Quar: no
    Bolonath Crystal: not really
    Zon Quar: tell please
    Zen Arado: anti-realists say there is no mind independent reakity
    Calvino Rabeni: A friend of mine went to a new-age movie and came back saying that. I asked - ok, walk off a cliff, don't fall down, can you make that reality? He said - well, in principle, but my faith is not strong enough
    Zen Arado: realists say there is an objective reakkity i=our there
    Zon Quar: word game...
    Zen Arado: ot's a scale
    Zen Arado: I am somewhere in tne middle
    Zon Quar: what do we really know ?
    Bolonath Crystal: what about: there is an objective reality, and this is emptiness
    Zen Arado: reality is always changing anyway
    Zon Quar: i know there is consciousness
    Zon Quar: that i know
    Zen Arado: you can't pin it down
    Calvino Rabeni: Really... I could not say that
    Zen Arado: Descartes Zon?
    Zon Quar: someone is conscious right now
    Zon Quar: not thinking
    Zon Quar: conscious
    Zen Arado: cogito
    Zon Quar: being first
    Zon Quar: then comes thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it still seems like a "must accept", even to modern neurophysiologists
    Zon Quar: there is being and consciousness..can we all agree on that
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry
    Calvino Rabeni: Depending on several definitional factors maybe,
    Zen Arado: hmmmm
    Zon Quar: im not sure of things around me
    Calvino Rabeni: but in the way I think is common, probably not
    Zon Quar: waht they really r
    Zen Arado: hard to find those foundations

something is ... or maybe not

    Bolonath Crystal: hm... if everything is an illusion, then nobody would be there to experience the illusion
    Zon Quar: yes
    Zon Quar: so we are
    Zon Quar: and we know that
    Zon Quar: in some sense
    Calvino Rabeni: The sense of self is a construction, full of holes
    Calvino Rabeni: The continuity of awareness, probably also
    Zon Quar: no self yet
    Zon Quar: just being
    Zon Quar: and awareness of it
    Zon Quar: that must be true
    Calvino Rabeni: Awareness - an illusion
    Zon Quar: ?
    Zen Arado: ah I think there is awareness
    Zon Quar: i thnk we cannot logically deny it
    Zen Arado: have to have something:)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm playing devil's advocate, but basically, I don't believe in a transcendent seer or seat of consciousness
    Zon Quar: it si not a question of believ i thinl
    Zon Quar: i am expereincing it
    Zon Quar: now
    Calvino Rabeni: Take away all the pieces, there is nothing
    Zon Quar: something is
    Zen Arado: but there is something here even if only a bunch of processes
    Zon Quar: and that somethingis aware
    Calvino Rabeni: No screen for the movie to project upon
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, there could be a bunch of proceses
    Calvino Rabeni: that themselves have no "self"
    Zon Quar: self is a word
    Calvino Rabeni: But working all together, one appears to itself
    Zen Arado: agree
    Zen Arado: no self in them
    Zen Arado: ah awareness could be a self sneaking in?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not from anywhere however
    Calvino Rabeni: It wasn't "lurking" outside
    Zon Quar: there is isness, that doesnt require self ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't see how "isness" could be independent of things that "is"
    Zon Quar: things arise in it
    Calvino Rabeni: So "isness" is what we say interpreting things
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a concept
    Zon Quar: no...pure isnes...before concepts arises
    Qt Core: time to go, bye all
    Zen Arado: bye Qt
    Zon Quar: bye qt
    Calvino Rabeni: :) qt
    Bolonath Crystal: sorry, but i also have to leave
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti
    Zon Quar: so i cant agree that there is not anything
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, leaving the state of existence in dispute :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, thanks
   Zen Arado: bye Bolo
    Zen Arado: but the anything gets to sound like a self
    Calvino Rabeni: I could be persuaded I suppose. I used to be a transcendentalist, but now I'm an ex-transcendentalist
    Zen Arado: what is a transcendentalist?
    Calvino Rabeni: I sort of like that last statement zen,
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure exactly what it means ...
    Calvino Rabeni: But it sounds like getting a free pass to the movies
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zon Quar: there is something which word do not touch, but it is "something" out of wich things arise, u can call it no thingness or isness or absulolute, but it is
    Zen Arado: well..I get in cheap
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Zen Arado: pensioner:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I worked in the projection booth for a while
    Zen Arado: ah so maybe difficulty is separating ourself from that?
    Zon Quar: yes its arbitrary
    Calvino Rabeni: Here is a doubt though - a lot of the transcendentalist philosophies may have been based on experiential states rather than solid philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: and those states may have been not what they seemed to be
    Zon Quar: what is solid then ?
    Zen Arado: tends to think expereience is better
    Zen Arado: not sure abot ;solid'
    Calvino Rabeni: In that case, the "materialists" might have been more correct
    Zon Quar: i dont think so
    Zon Quar: materialstic way leaves something out
    Calvino Rabeni: I do a lot of meditation, but it doesn't prove to me, that there is being or anythign like that
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, it's a partial theory
    Zen Arado: how can you prove these things?
    Zon Quar: how can anything be prooved
    Zen Arado: philosophy is based on logic but there are always assumptions in there
    Zon Quar: only u cna decide
    Calvino Rabeni: Nothing can be proved
    Calvino Rabeni: Only me, little me without any help?
    Zen Arado: always has to be a starting assumption
    Zon Quar: not little me
    Calvino Rabeni: That is a lot of responsibiility Zon, I don't think I want it
    Zon Quar: something in that little me
    Zon Quar: isness itself
    Zon Quar: which we r part of
    Zen Arado: no me - just a particular of a giant ...something
    Calvino Rabeni: If every human was responsible for the existence of their world, it would be pretty burdensome - human race would basically crack up
    Zon Quar: says..this feels true
    Zen Arado: like waves in an ocean
    Calvino Rabeni: If "me" is in doubt, then how can "my" notion of "isness" not also be in doubt?
    Zon Quar: cause we think we r separate waves really and independent of teh ocean
    Zen Arado: just one particular manifestation
    Zen Arado: unique and different but still part of a whole
    Zon Quar: but the sea is there
    Calvino Rabeni: Take away the water, no sea is there
    Zon Quar: waves r transitory
    Zon Quar: sea and waves exist
    Calvino Rabeni: the sea is an emergent property of the water
    Zon Quar: its just the way u look at it
    Zen Arado: just a label we give the body of water
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zon Quar: or the waves look ta eachothers and the sea
    Zon Quar: but without the sea existing, this discussion of the waves would not take place
    Calvino Rabeni: So the mind body philosophers are still duking it out
    Zen Arado: anyway - having sussed out the universe I better go do my shopping :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Have a grand time :)
    Zon Quar: lunch time
    Zen Arado: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    Zon Quar: c u guys