2010.01.06 01:00 - real - more real

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

    The question about what is truth - finally solved ;))

        Bolonath Crystal: namaste flux
        Flux Constantine: namaste
        Bolonath Crystal: how r u this morning?
        Flux Constantine: pretty good... you?
        Bolonath Crystal: thx. still alive *g*
        Bolonath Crystal: any new experiences with YSBS?
        Flux Constantine: not sure. one thing I notice, though, is that I tend to notice the 15-minute intervals almost automatically
        Bolonath Crystal: great. the power of rehearse :)
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal
        Calvino Rabeni: namaste bolo and flux
        Flux Constantine: hello
        Flux Constantine: can I switch my av's sitting posture?
        Calvino Rabeni: If you click the pillow it changes
        Flux Constantine: ah, thanks
        Flux Constantine: Calvino, what is the thing that says 'Being As Play' above your head? some kind of tag?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is a hover text
        Calvino Rabeni: A script object

     it started with a song...

        Bolonath Crystal: any special themes today?
        Flux Constantine: "everything you said was true, but I couldn't prove it"
        Calvino Rabeni: I did a theme session earlier today, but now I feel like following what happens
        Bolonath Crystal: maybe you like to tell something about your quote, flux. at the moment i can't make much of it, i'm afraid
        Flux Constantine: just a song I was playing in another window... regina spektor
        Bolonath Crystal: oic
        Bolonath Crystal: do you think, truth can always be proved?
        Calvino Rabeni: Not according to logic, I've heard
        Flux Constantine: no...
        Flux Constantine: but maybe trying, even though it's impossible, is important somehow
        Bolonath Crystal: i'm not even really sure what 'truth' is
      Zon Quar: heya
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste zon


    definitions of truth

        Flux Constantine: beauty is truth, and truth beauty... that is all ye know on earth and all ye need to know :)
        Mei Yiyuan: truth cannot be definitive anyway. There will always be a new consideration to change its meaning
        Calvino Rabeni: smart
        Bolonath Crystal: that means, truth is what we think it is...
        Calvino Rabeni: Flux runs off to catch Mei
        Qt Core: hi all
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste qt
        Calvino Rabeni: Hi Qt,Zon
        Zon Quar: Truth can have a variety of meanings, from the state of being the case, being in accord with a particular fact or reality, being in accord with the body of real things, events, actuality, or fidelity to an original or to a standard. In archaic usage it could be fidelity, constancy or sincerity in action, character, and utterance.[1] The term has no single definition about which a majority of professional philosophers and scholars agree, and various theories and views of truth continue to be debated.
        Zon Quar: ops
        Zon Quar: so what is truth, asked Pilates form Jesus
        Calvino Rabeni: One thing seems true, that truth isn't what it used to be.
        Zon Quar: one could say truth is what works
        Zon Quar: or truth is what is permanent
        Zon Quar: hm..im lost
        Calvino Rabeni: Which is nothing?
        Bolonath Crystal: that's about what indian philosophy says about truth, zon
        Zon Quar: which one ?
        Zon Quar: permant ?
        Bolonath Crystal: truth is what is permanent
        Zon Quar: makes sense
        Bolonath Crystal: things which exist temporarily don't exist at all
        Zon Quar: even dreams r real, but not always very lasting
        Zon Quar: i think they exist
        Zon Quar: but only short time
        Zon Quar: lol
        Bolonath Crystal: well, indian philosophers came to the conclusion that 'being' - or 'brahman - is the only true thing
        Zon Quar: nods...it is permanent
        Calvino Rabeni: That seems to make the word more or less useless
        Zon Quar: but thislife we live is true too in a sense
        Zon Quar: if i hit my toe on a rock
        Zon Quar: the hurt is really there
        Zon Quar: try it
        Zon Quar: but only little while
        Bolonath Crystal: only if the perception is not an illusion...
        Zon Quar: it is there..but it is not waht it seems to be..i think
        Zon Quar: bit it is
        Bolonath Crystal: it might be like watcheing a movie. the movie is there, but the contents of the movie are illusion
        Zon Quar: nods
        Calvino Rabeni: why make such a distinction?
        Bolonath Crystal: just like real life *g*
        Zon Quar: An illusion is a distortion of the senses, revealing how the brain normally organizes and interprets sensory stimulation.
        Bolonath Crystal: this distinction may be helpful to find out about the nature of 'being', cal
        Calvino Rabeni: why make the distinction of "being" then :)
        Bolonath Crystal: *smile* why not, cal? that's part of the 'divine play'
        Zon Quar: nods
        Zon Quar: its the nature of things
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste zen
        Calvino Rabeni: Just for fun, so, there could be arbitrary levels created
        Zen Arado: namaste
        Zon Quar: nods..i guess so
       Zen Arado: Hi all
        Zon Quar: hi zen
        Calvino Rabeni: So why say the contents are less "real" than the movie?
        Calvino Rabeni: Why not be an "equal opportunity" ontologist?
        Bolonath Crystal nods to calvino
        Zon Quar: we make the distinction temporary - permanent
        Bolonath Crystal: things are real for us, if they have the same 'reality level' as we have
        Zon Quar: in our mind
        Zon Quar: real - more real
        Zen Arado: we make our own reality
        Bolonath Crystal: that's exactly what i think, zen
        Bolonath Crystal: we create universes


    realism vs. anti-realism

        Zen Arado: you know the realism - anti_realism debate in philosophy?
        Zon Quar: no
        Bolonath Crystal: not really
        Zon Quar: tell please
        Zen Arado: anti-realists say there is no mind independent reakity
        Calvino Rabeni: A friend of mine went to a new-age movie and came back saying that. I asked - ok, walk off a cliff, don't fall down, can you make that reality? He said - well, in principle, but my faith is not strong enough
        Zen Arado: realists say there is an objective reakkity i=our there
        Zon Quar: word game...
        Zen Arado: ot's a scale
        Zen Arado: I am somewhere in tne middle
        Zon Quar: what do we really know ?
        Bolonath Crystal: what about: there is an objective reality, and this is emptiness
        Zen Arado: reality is always changing anyway
        Zon Quar: i know there is consciousness
        Zon Quar: that i know
        Zen Arado: you can't pin it down
        Calvino Rabeni: Really... I could not say that
        Zen Arado: Descartes Zon?
        Zon Quar: someone is conscious right now
        Zon Quar: not thinking
        Zon Quar: conscious
        Zen Arado: cogito
        Zon Quar: being first
        Zon Quar: then comes thinking
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it still seems like a "must accept", even to modern neurophysiologists
        Zon Quar: there is being and consciousness..can we all agree on that
        Calvino Rabeni: Sorry
        Calvino Rabeni: Depending on several definitional factors maybe,
        Zen Arado: hmmmm
        Zon Quar: im not sure of things around me
        Calvino Rabeni: but in the way I think is common, probably not
        Zon Quar: waht they really r
        Zen Arado: hard to find those foundations


    something is ... or maybe not

        Bolonath Crystal: hm... if everything is an illusion, then nobody would be there to experience the illusion
        Zon Quar: yes
        Zon Quar: so we are
        Zon Quar: and we know that
        Zon Quar: in some sense
        Calvino Rabeni: The sense of self is a construction, full of holes
        Calvino Rabeni: The continuity of awareness, probably also
        Zon Quar: no self yet
        Zon Quar: just being
        Zon Quar: and awareness of it
        Zon Quar: that must be true
        Calvino Rabeni: Awareness - an illusion
        Zon Quar: ?
        Zen Arado: ah I think there is awareness
        Zon Quar: i thnk we cannot logically deny it
        Zen Arado: have to have something:)
        Calvino Rabeni: I'm playing devil's advocate, but basically, I don't believe in a transcendent seer or seat of consciousness
        Zon Quar: it si not a question of believ i thinl
        Zon Quar: i am expereincing it
        Zon Quar: now
        Calvino Rabeni: Take away all the pieces, there is nothing
        Zon Quar: something is
        Zen Arado: but there is something here even if only a bunch of processes
        Zon Quar: and that somethingis aware
        Calvino Rabeni: No screen for the movie to project upon
        Calvino Rabeni: Sure, there could be a bunch of proceses
        Calvino Rabeni: that themselves have no "self"
        Zon Quar: self is a word
        Calvino Rabeni: But working all together, one appears to itself
        Zen Arado: agree
        Zen Arado: no self in them
        Zen Arado: ah awareness could be a self sneaking in?
        Calvino Rabeni: Not from anywhere however
        Calvino Rabeni: It wasn't "lurking" outside
        Zon Quar: there is isness, that doesnt require self ?
        Calvino Rabeni: I don't see how "isness" could be independent of things that "is"
        Zon Quar: things arise in it
        Calvino Rabeni: So "isness" is what we say interpreting things
        Calvino Rabeni: It is a concept
        Zon Quar: no...pure isnes...before concepts arises
        Qt Core: time to go, bye all
        Zen Arado: bye Qt
        Zon Quar: bye qt
        Calvino Rabeni: :) qt
        Bolonath Crystal: sorry, but i also have to leave
        Bolonath Crystal: om shanti
        Zon Quar: so i cant agree that there is not anything
        Calvino Rabeni: Oh, leaving the state of existence in dispute :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Ok, thanks
       Zen Arado: bye Bolo
        Zen Arado: but the anything gets to sound like a self
        Calvino Rabeni: I could be persuaded I suppose. I used to be a transcendentalist, but now I'm an ex-transcendentalist
        Zen Arado: what is a transcendentalist?
        Calvino Rabeni: I sort of like that last statement zen,
        Calvino Rabeni: Not sure exactly what it means ...
        Calvino Rabeni: But it sounds like getting a free pass to the movies
        Zen Arado: :)
        Zon Quar: there is something which word do not touch, but it is "something" out of wich things arise, u can call it no thingness or isness or absulolute, but it is
        Zen Arado: well..I get in cheap
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        Zen Arado: pensioner:)
        Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I worked in the projection booth for a while
        Zen Arado: ah so maybe difficulty is separating ourself from that?
        Zon Quar: yes its arbitrary
        Calvino Rabeni: Here is a doubt though - a lot of the transcendentalist philosophies may have been based on experiential states rather than solid philosophy
        Calvino Rabeni: and those states may have been not what they seemed to be
        Zon Quar: what is solid then ?
        Zen Arado: tends to think expereience is better
        Zen Arado: not sure abot ;solid'
        Calvino Rabeni: In that case, the "materialists" might have been more correct
        Zon Quar: i dont think so
        Zon Quar: materialstic way leaves something out
        Calvino Rabeni: I do a lot of meditation, but it doesn't prove to me, that there is being or anythign like that
        Calvino Rabeni: Sure, it's a partial theory
        Zen Arado: how can you prove these things?
        Zon Quar: how can anything be prooved
        Zen Arado: philosophy is based on logic but there are always assumptions in there
        Zon Quar: only u cna decide
        Calvino Rabeni: Nothing can be proved
        Calvino Rabeni: Only me, little me without any help?
        Zen Arado: always has to be a starting assumption
        Zon Quar: not little me
        Calvino Rabeni: That is a lot of responsibiility Zon, I don't think I want it
        Zon Quar: something in that little me
        Zon Quar: isness itself
        Zon Quar: which we r part of
        Zen Arado: no me - just a particular of a giant ...something
        Calvino Rabeni: If every human was responsible for the existence of their world, it would be pretty burdensome - human race would basically crack up
        Zon Quar: says..this feels true
        Zen Arado: like waves in an ocean
        Calvino Rabeni: If "me" is in doubt, then how can "my" notion of "isness" not also be in doubt?
        Zon Quar: cause we think we r separate waves really and independent of teh ocean
        Zen Arado: just one particular manifestation
        Zen Arado: unique and different but still part of a whole
        Zon Quar: but the sea is there
        Calvino Rabeni: Take away the water, no sea is there
        Zon Quar: waves r transitory
        Zon Quar: sea and waves exist
        Calvino Rabeni: the sea is an emergent property of the water
        Zon Quar: its just the way u look at it
        Zen Arado: just a label we give the body of water
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Zon Quar: or the waves look ta eachothers and the sea
        Zon Quar: but without the sea existing, this discussion of the waves would not take place
        Calvino Rabeni: So the mind body philosophers are still duking it out
        Zen Arado: anyway - having sussed out the universe I better go do my shopping :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Have a grand time :)
        Zon Quar: lunch time
        Zen Arado: bye
        Calvino Rabeni: Bye
        Zon Quar: c u guys

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