2010.01.06 07:00 - No Need to BECOME Anything

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    I was joined for this session by Zon for a moment, Resting for a glimpse, then Zen and Bolonath for the longer stretch. We first talked about methods of online communication, then themes around YSBS, Non-Duality, Non-Locality, Upbringings, and Reading Too Much! 

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :)
    Zon Quar: heya
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting for SL to tell you, while logged in, that you can now log in :)
    Zon Quar: is there some kind of logging problem ?
    Eliza Madrigal: It seems that there was
    Eliza Madrigal: Now it is over... missed the turbulence I guess
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zon Quar: well. its good to remind ppl that they r here, lol
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Eliza Madrigal: Are you experienceing lag?
    Zon Quar: no, i just logged in
    Zon Quar: i must go to al cture, c u later ã‹¡
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Resting, Good Morning!
    Resting Thor: good morning
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for joining me :)
    Resting Thor: i can sit quietly :)
    Eliza Madrigal: while I ramble on?? (giggle)
    (snip ;-)
    Resting Thor: i'll be on my best behaviour then haha
    Eliza Madrigal: I really do enjoy hearing others online though... after so many months of text
    Resting Thor: i enjoy voice as well....easier than typing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, for me it is easier to articulate what I am experiencing via text...
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza, Resting
    Eliza Madrigal: most of the time.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen! :)
    Resting Thor: hi zen
    Zen Arado: ever try voice typing?
    Eliza Madrigal: I feel like voice exposes a lot... and especially if one doesn't quite know how to wrap their thoughts about something abstract..
    Eliza Madrigal: You mean text that translates itself to voice, Zen?
    Zen Arado: no, speaking into a prog that translates voice into text
    Eliza Madrigal: No, I haven't done that yet.
    Resting Thor: have not done that
    Zen Arado: I try it off and on because my typing is so slow
    Zen Arado: and inaccurate
    Eliza Madrigal: Stephen Hawking, I heard, did not/does not want to upgrade the technology which creates his voice....
    Zen Arado: but it makes a lot of mistakes too
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose he feels that is part of his identity
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I'd imagine... just like the SL translators
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: I will try it here if you like
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure
    Zen Arado: I usin it nw
    Zen Arado: you see the mistakes it makes, but it is better in Word
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohh, yes it would reduce you to phone texting quality
    Zen Arado: I use Drago naturally speaking

    Bolonath arrives...

    Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste Bolo! :)
    Zen Arado: it doesn't work so well in second life
    Zen Arado: Hi Bolo
    Zen Arado: and it is hopeless with names unless you teach it first
    Resting Thor: gotta go...RL :( ...later
    Eliza Madrigal: SL seems to have much 'catching up' to do... or maybe it will just wait and leap
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Rest :) Nice to see you
    Eliza Madrigal: Bolo, I was reading over the last YsEsBs session this morning...
    Zen Arado: bye rest
    Eliza Madrigal: I was intrigued by what you wrote... your perspective on the exercize
    Bolonath Crystal: ah... yes?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, it is difficult to form a question...
    Eliza Madrigal: what I want to ask is along the lines of whether you just 'stay' in non-locality thinking...
    Bolonath Crystal: non-locality thinking? i never thought about it this way... but i think that fits somehow
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose the way I heard you was in a kind of relative/absolute outline...
    Bolonath Crystal: imo all we perceive as 'outside' is a projection - as well as all we perceive as 'inside'. in fact there shouldn't be much difference
    Bolonath Crystal: some things we are projecting 'outside', others 'inside'
    Bolonath Crystal: but 'being' is neither outside nor inside - or maybe both as the same time
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, so it isn't that you are viewing 'from the absolute' and dismissing the relative as projection....
    Bolonath Crystal: the relative is the way, in which the absolute sees
    Eliza Madrigal: 'unity'
    Bolonath Crystal: yes
    Bolonath Crystal: in an absolute way there is nothing to see


    Eliza Madrigal: Nice overlap here in Zen, too... as koan practice can startle us out of being stuck in one view or another?
    Bolonath Crystal: i don't know much about zen buddhism. but if there is a unity of everything, and if the 'absolute' is this unity, there is nothing to be seen in the absolute. only in the relative there a 'different' things
    Bolonath Crystal: if we want to have perceptions, it must be relative
    Eliza Madrigal: For some reason I have imagery of a ladle... of Being scooping out of the soup of projections and perceptions...
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Zen Arado: "Insight can’t be found in sutras, commentaries, verbal expression, or —isms. Liberation and awakened understanding can’t be found by devoting ourselves to the study of the Buddhist scriptures. This is like trying to find fresh water in dry bones. Returning to the present moment, using our clear mind which exists right here and now, we can be in touch with liberation and enlightenment, as well as with the Buddha and the patriarchs as living realities right in this moment.
    Zen Arado: Thich Nhat Hanh
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... so let's discuss in terms of insight?? Insight, to me, would be the glimpses....
    Zen Arado: We always seem to be lookng for some formula or method
    Eliza Madrigal: Glimpses as exposures that there might be a clearer view or less stuckness...
    Eliza Madrigal: available
    Eliza Madrigal: Well methods are tools
    Eliza Madrigal: hints, sometimes tricks :)

    Bolo expresses what I was trying to ask...

    Bolonath Crystal: we seem to think, that it is somehow 'wrong' to see in a relative way


    For me, the Refreshing thing about PaB exercizes such as YSBS, "Dropping" and APAPB, is that they help one get comfortable with not pedestalizing or idealizing 'spirituality', but just relaxing into what is 'here' and 'everywhere' already.... the very material of our current life experience.


    Zen Arado: yes but we have it already and keep looking for it !
    Eliza Madrigal: yes! This is along the lines of what I was asking, Bolo
    Eliza Madrigal: haha Zen, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: That seems the trap, when we get more comfortable with 'absolute' or 'non-local' reality?.. that there can come a distance...
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe it is just pendulum swinging :)
    Zen Arado: "Is there really an inside and an outside? Or is that just another thought, another concept that comes and goes? Notice: sounds in the room come and go. Bodily feelings come and go. Thoughts come and go. None of these are 'inside' or 'outside'. They are just happenings. 'Inside' and 'outside' are just more labels that appear. 'Inside and outside' is just another story that comes and goes in this awareness. Just another happening.
    Eliza Madrigal: a kind of turbulence even, in the pendulum swinging...
    Zen Arado: from a non duality letter I got this morning
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... Swinging Door
    Zen Arado: yes
    Bolonath Crystal: we ARE eternal being, we ARE absolute awareness. maybe we don't know it yet, but there is no need to BECOME anything
    Zen Arado: yes true
    Eliza Madrigal: so not becoming, but becoming comfortable/confident... in a sense...
    Zen Arado: maybe we just like thinking about it too much?
    Eliza Madrigal: Confident enough to allow the hold of distinctions to drop?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, hm... thinking too much sometimes...
    Zen Arado: we have to drop our story of 'me'
    Eliza Madrigal: but playful thinking seems required... to get beyond the way we normally go about thinking
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes the story of me ... even the story of '"becoming enlightened, or selfless" 'me'
    Bolonath Crystal: thinking is a good way to start experiencing. it is not the goal, merely a tool
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: listening to Eckhart Tolle this morning
    Eliza Madrigal: So... if we dropped stories and goals... What might this conversation sound like/look like?
    Eliza Madrigal: just play... and it feels like that to me :)
    Zen Arado: we might have nothing to say !
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Zen Arado: just sit here silently
    Zen Arado: http://campaign.constantcontact.com/...hk2YpI_w%3D%3D
    Eliza Madrigal: I think words can be open...
    Zen Arado: sory about that long link - it is to a non duality newsletter that Bolo might be interested in
    Bolonath Crystal: *click*
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes and me too... the title sounds familiar "Life Without a Center"
    Zen Arado: a friend send me non duality links all the time
    Eliza Madrigal: No pinning down, non locality...
    Bolonath Crystal: oops... long text... i bookmark it and read it later
    Zen Arado: sure
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I just saved it
    Zen Arado: you don't have to read it
    Zen Arado: I only read some of the stuff
    Zen Arado: read too much
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... yes I have that affliction too...
    Bolonath Crystal: me too *g* especially when there are some pictures in the text ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: One of my resolutions is slowing down... in the middle of doing things like reading...
    Zen Arado: I have a bit more time to myself at the moment because my two art clubs and meditation groups are shut down for Christmas
    Eliza Madrigal: letting a book be read...
    Zen Arado: hungry ghost for books too
    Eliza Madrigal: : )
    Zen Arado: buy more than I can read
    Eliza Madrigal: Well... think of what you've already read in life...
    Zen Arado: and forgotten....
    Eliza Madrigal: if you 'learned' nothing else from this moment....
    Bolonath Crystal: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: read nothing else... prob what you'd read and have to work with is 'enough'
    Zen Arado: exactly
    Eliza Madrigal: I tell myself this... there is nothing 'needed' really....
    Zen Arado: more than enough

    Eckhart Tolle...

    Zen Arado: re listening to ET earlier
    Zen Arado: amazing what I missed before
    Zen Arado: perhaps you have to be ready fro some teacings
    Eliza Madrigal: His teachings are wonderful examples of overlaps in traditions... he truly does not worry about the compartments
    Bolonath Crystal: for me some writings change meaning every couple of years
    Eliza Madrigal nods, yes absolutely!
    Zen Arado: he has 'Westernized' and made teaching accessible
    Eliza Madrigal: there is an audio which I found through i-tunes of ET... about finding purpose... it is a treasure
    Zen Arado: but there is more depth there than we realize
    Zen Arado: I like 'In the presence of a great mystery'
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, for a while I thought that his teachings being on Oprah would really affect my mainstream 'mom' friends... everyone seemed to be listening... but it does seem that timing is a huge factor when it comes to hearing
    Zen Arado: yes ..it wears off again


    Eliza Madrigal: Bolo were you raised in a 'spiritual' way, or was there a life place that made the interest strong?
    Zen Arado: just realizing that so much of his teaching is about getting out of the mind and into the body awareness
    Bolonath Crystal: i wasn't raised in any way spiritual, eliza
    Bolonath Crystal: it developed somehow
    Eliza Madrigal: hm... just somehow? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And you Zen?
    Zen Arado: I had little spiritual upbringing too
    Bolonath Crystal: i was rather anti-spiritual for a long time, caught up in scientific thinking
    Zen Arado: parents sent me to Sunday School
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, guess we can't pin beginnings down either
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I think I've tried on a hundred paradigms... went through a few years of reading all the athiest books and such even ...
    Zen Arado: I became an evangelical Christian late 30's
    Zen Arado: sort of mid life crisis
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I tried that on too Zen :)
    Zen Arado: was disillusioned with materialism
    Eliza Madrigal: haha... well, I tried to try it on really....
    Eliza Madrigal: was thought of as 'rebellious'
    Zen Arado: lasted a long time with me
    Bolonath Crystal: being rebellious might have been my spiritual starting point
    Eliza Madrigal: !!
    Bolonath Crystal: for this life
    Zen Arado: I think it is curiousity with me
    Eliza Madrigal: I like that... maybe it takes a kind of rebelliousness to be willing to question
    Bolonath Crystal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: and really wrestle
    Zen Arado: 'what are we here for...what is the purpose of life'?
    Zen Arado: and the meaning of life
    Bolonath Crystal: i started meditating when i was 15, mainly because i liked david carradine in his kung fu films :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: hah so grasshopper :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Why not :)
    Zen Arado: I read a Buddhist book just before I became a Christian
    Eliza Madrigal: 15 does seem quite young to begin meditation without a family background
    Zen Arado: should have stuck with that
    Bolonath Crystal: but it is the best age to become a 'rebel', eliza ;)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: well yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, but it is all helpful Zen...
    Zen Arado: but so out of tune with culture of that time I N.Ireland
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm very grateful for the intense Christian focus I had for years...
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sure Zen
    Zen Arado: well....we still learned spiritual truths I guess
    Eliza Madrigal: When Christian, I used to secretly read Deepak Chopra books...
    Eliza Madrigal: wouldn't have told anyone :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: blasphemy !
    Eliza Madrigal: but I was never comfortable with that aspect of the teachings... of not listening to anything else... closing one's mind, etc
    Zen Arado: yes ...me neither
    Zen Arado: they wouldn't read a book about evolution unless it was christian author
    Zen Arado: so much fear
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Zen Arado: like clinging to an answer
    Eliza Madrigal: fear can be a trap for all of us... whether in a tradition or out
    Bolonath Crystal nods
    Zen Arado: and refusing to ever question it
    Eliza Madrigal: wanting so much to find something to hold onto... something that won't let us down
    Zen Arado: yes we have to be aware of that
    Zen Arado: could cling to Zen tradition too
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure!
    Zen Arado: though they warn you against it at least
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe it is about the heart place... of it being personal
    Zen Arado: 'if you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha!
    Bolonath Crystal: sorry, afk
    Eliza Madrigal: That's okay Bolo :)
    Zen Arado: sorry have to go
    Zen Arado: friend in RL just called
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen :) Have a lovely day
    Eliza Madrigal: or evening :)
    Zen Arado: bye

    I waited a little while...

    Eliza Madrigal: Bolo?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd hate to leave you sitting here alone... not a very good host thing to do...
    Eliza Madrigal: :) think I must though. It was wonderful that you could come today, Thanks and bye for now

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