2010.01.07 13:00 - signal and noise

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    In the end of the session we started talking about selective news and how we filter information and that the philosopher Thomas Nagel argued that there is not an objective perspective.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: good day eliza,mick
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya, Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza ,Yak
    Eliza Madrigal is happy WoK returns today :)
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaaaa
    Mickorod Renard: I like Wok
    Eliza Madrigal: I know we're not supposed to be attached, but I've missed it :)

    mick is reading several books at the same time, one of them: Space, time and knowledge, the book we discuss during the time workshop

    Mickorod Renard: I bought several books lately,,re stuff here
    Eliza Madrigal: really?
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Eliza Madrigal: Which books Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,space time and whatever,,and the wok one
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Mickorod Renard: and,,,the complete I ching
    Eliza Madrigal: space time and whatever... hm... have to find that one
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi lia
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lia :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello everybody ;)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi lia
    Eliza Madrigal: Which WoK one?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: have you been to the time workshop mick?
    Mickorod Renard: erm,,
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i can´t remember you seen you there, but if you read the book you did more then me :)
    Mickorod Renard: I have been to time workshop before
    Mickorod Renard: I am about a third way through
    Lia Rikugun: for me it is very difficult to understand :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've read the book once, but am going through it again and it is as though I haven't
    Mickorod Renard: but I read multiple books at the same time,,so I am doin well
    Lia Rikugun: but maybe it is not about understanding but letting it in :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Lia Rikugun: as maxine said in her email
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I was thinkin that what I have read so far seems to concrete what I have heard here and other sessions
    Lia Rikugun: hello agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Lia
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello all :)
    Mickorod Renard: hi Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Hey Mick
    Lia Rikugun: hello arabella
    Eliza Madrigal: yes Maxine wrote a beautiful email to the time group, and it seems several of us felt the same way about the book... that one has to get out of familiar settings or read in a 'different' kind of way....
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Eliza :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi ara
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello arabella
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone new
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello liza
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Liza :)
    Agatha Macbeth: And hello Liza
    Liza Deischer: hi all
    Mickorod Renard: hi liza

    Eliza, Liza, Lia... typos :) and Wol is joining us + cold everywhere except for Malta!

    Eliza Madrigal: (I always wait until I see Liza so I'm sure whether someone is saying hi to me via typo-haha)
    Eliza Madrigal: So Mick you aren't sure what the other book is titled?
    Lia Rikugun: :) (E)Liza
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Lia Rikugun: hello wol
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Wol :)
    Liza Deischer: yes can be confusing
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello agatha, liza, lia, eliza, mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
    arabella Ella: Hiya Wol
    Wol Euler waits to see who else is hiding behind the lag.
    arabella Ella: meeeee :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Wol Euler: heheheheh, hello ara.
    arabella Ella: Hiya Wol!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: chill time
    Agatha Macbeth: Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr!
    Mickorod Renard: it is here,,like minus 5
    Mickorod Renard: with snow everywhere
    Lia Rikugun: -3 or so here and snow..
    arabella Ella: and here still like summer ... is anyone snowed in?
    Lia Rikugun: big chaos, we are not used to
    Liza Deischer: somethingn like that here
    Mickorod Renard: at least i get extra days off

    we are all neighbors

    Liza Deischer: and Lia you're from.....?
    Mickorod Renard: although i like work
    Lia Rikugun: germany, aachen :)
    Lia Rikugun: near the border to the netherlands and belgium
    Liza Deischer: ah, not so far away from here
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Lia Rikugun: just 5 kilometers away in fact
    Lia Rikugun: and you liza
    Liza Deischer: Yes, I know Aachen
    Liza Deischer: Netherlands
    Liza Deischer: south
    Lia Rikugun: haha we are close neighbors
    Liza Deischer: Tilburg, if you happen to know it
    Lia Rikugun: hm no, but will look it up on google maps :)
    arabella Ella: is that close to Maastricht Liza?
    Agatha Macbeth: Not to be confused with Tilbury :)
    arabella Ella: or Eindoven?
    Liza Deischer: depends on the distance from where you looking from
    Liza Deischer: Eindhoven is more nearby
    Lia Rikugun: near eindhoven
    Lia Rikugun: yes :)

    Tilbury, Tutbury and Mary Queen of Scots and other Marys...

    Mickorod Renard: I was near a tutbury once
    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cal
    Liza Deischer: hi Cal
    Lia Rikugun: helloi calvino and zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Tutbury?
    Liza Deischer: tutbury?
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
    Wol Euler: hello calvino, zon
    Liza Deischer: hi Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: In Staffordshire?
    Zon Quar: heya
    arabella Ella: Hiya Zon
    Mickorod Renard: Hi calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone
    Mickorod Renard: Hi zon
    Mickorod Renard: yes Ahgatha
    Mickorod Renard: agatha*
    Liza Deischer: Well, it isn't near Tilburg :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :)
    Mickorod Renard: with a big A
    Agatha Macbeth: I seem to remember Mary Queen of Scots was imprisoned near there
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,she was imprisoned lots of places though
    Liza Deischer: tutbury
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: Sure was :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Bless her
    Liza Deischer: Wasn't she married to a Dutchman
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Calvino
    Mickorod Renard: Spanish I think
    Agatha Macbeth: You are probably thinking of William of Orange, Liza.
    Liza Deischer: yes, and it was a Mary
    Agatha Macbeth: He came later
    Liza Deischer: okay
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes he was married to a Mary I think
    Agatha Macbeth: Also of the Stuart bloodline
    Mickorod Renard: I think mary q of s was married to phillip of spain
    Liza Deischer: But I don't know the history of my country very well
    Liza Deischer: so I don't know which Mary :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: There were lots of Marys
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Especially catholic ones :)
    Liza Deischer: I suppose so, looking at the name
    Agatha Macbeth: Uh huh
    Agatha Macbeth: The second name is usually Bernadette :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Old joke
    Mickorod Renard: :)

    Michorod is very shy!

    Liza Deischer: shy that, doesn't sound catholic?
    Agatha Macbeth: Who's shy?
    Liza Deischer: oh :-)
    Liza Deischer: why
    Mickorod Renard: I am a bit
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah
    Agatha Macbeth: You bloody ain't Mick!
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Anyway what were we talking about?
    Mickorod Renard: yes I AM,,i AM VERY SHY
    Mickorod Renard: oops
    Agatha Macbeth: OK I BELIEVE YOU!
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: rubs her ear
    Mickorod Renard: I will be shy at the retreat
    Lia Rikugun: ah you are coming as well :)
    Wol Euler: we'll see about that.
    Lia Rikugun: yeah
    Agatha Macbeth: Why will you be going backwards? :)
    Mickorod Renard: well, I booked flights
    Mickorod Renard: not sure which way the plane goes
    arabella Ella: backwards of course :)
    arabella Ella: as always
    Zon Quar: beeing called..c u all
    Agatha Macbeth: If it's a bi-plane it goes both ways ;-)
    arabella Ella: nite Zon
    Lia Rikugun: bye zon
    Wol Euler: bye zon, take care
    Mickorod Renard: C U zon
    Liza Deischer: bye Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: C ya Zon
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Mickorod Renard: just saw the bit about bi plane
    Agatha Macbeth: Wake up Mick!
    Agatha Macbeth: You're slow tonight
    Agatha Macbeth: Must be the snow
    Mickorod Renard: its hypethermia
    arabella Ella: he's not slow he's shy he told you so
    Agatha Macbeth: He's slow AND shy evidently....
    Mickorod Renard: we visit hyperthermia dont we,,its in malta
    Agatha Macbeth: Come back Eliza!
    Wol Euler: poor mick, being picked on by the ladies+
    arabella Ella: if u wish ... we could visit
    Calvino Rabeni: No, maybe it is hypo-themia - the lack of topics
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,lets choose a subject
    Agatha Macbeth: It's a girl thing

    we start talking about a documentary that arabella is watching about how islam and hindu merge in india

    arabella Ella: i am watching a very good italian documentary about how islam and hindu merge together in india
    Agatha Macbeth: They do?
    Mickorod Renard: but do they merge?
    Wol Euler: I think that would be news to those on the border with Pakistan
    Mickorod Renard: I thought there was much friction
    Agatha Macbeth: Do they not usually try to kill each other most of the time?
    arabella Ella: well it is going back to the 15th century and describing the integration in many famous indian monuments including the taj mahal
    Wol Euler: "well, yeah, but apart from *that* ..."
    Agatha Macbeth: Mmmm
    arabella Ella: and don't forget

    selective news

    arabella Ella: we get very selective news here in the west
    arabella Ella: there are more than religious conflicts in those areas
    Mickorod Renard: do they have an islamic kama sutra?
    arabella Ella: more variables i mean
    arabella Ella: good question Mick
    arabella Ella: i dont have an answer
    Wol Euler: yes mick: remain fully clothed, upright, and separated by at least 30cm at all times.
    Agatha Macbeth: We have no way of really knowing tho Ara
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: or was that the bit about 'more variables'
    arabella Ella: we do Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: How so?
    arabella Ella: through internet access to newspapers in english from that area
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I return to computer to read "Come back Eliza!" hehe
    Agatha Macbeth: But do we know that we get the facts?
    Eliza Madrigal: It worked

    different newspapers point out different happenings, Al Jazeera and Haaretz

    arabella Ella: i am always amazed when i read some papers on emirates flights en route to or from dubai ... with so many different takes on what is happening
    Agatha Macbeth: WB Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: TY :)
    Wol Euler: that's true, it is useful to be able to compare Al Jazeera with Haaretz in English, the truth is usually somewhere in between
    arabella Ella: it is up to us to judge if we wish or assess and to decide what is credible and what is not
    Agatha Macbeth: It is? :)
    arabella Ella: try having a look at Gulf news for example
    Mickorod Renard: I think there is much seduction in the mystery..rather than the blatent
    arabella Ella: or bangkok times
    arabella Ella: and many more
    arabella Ella: Al Jaz poached many of Beep's people
    Agatha Macbeth: Beep?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, liiturature may be a better source than "news" for this purpose
    arabella Ella: literature too
    Mickorod Renard: I wonder sometimes how relevent anything is,,especially when we cannot ven decide whether we even exist
    arabella Ella: i love buying books from airports where you can get publishers (books) which are not mainstream in europe

    "it depends who you listen to"

    Agatha Macbeth: As always folks, it all depends on who you listen to
    arabella Ella: best to listen to as many sides as you possibly can
    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed :)
    arabella Ella: i was in india recently
    arabella Ella: and they dont talk against islam
    arabella Ella: but against their neighbouring country
    Mickorod Renard: but sometimes one attaches more truth to those who look important..or rich
    arabella Ella: because there are quite a few muslims in india who are indians
    Agatha Macbeth: 'Neighbouring country' being Pakistan?
    arabella Ella: yes Agatha
    arabella Ella: for many obvious reasons
    Mickorod Renard: for example,,would we take the word of Obama..or the word of the Iranian chap as the truth?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yes! :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Iranian chap?
    Mickorod Renard: I dont know his name
    arabella Ella: i dont think you can take 'all' they say and judge that Mick
    arabella Ella: you take concepts or policies or positions
    Agatha Macbeth: Neither do I Mick ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: you believe who you are conditioned to believe
    Eliza Madrigal: Amadinijad?
    arabella Ella: but today with internet we can explore so much more
    Agatha Macbeth: Could be
    Wol Euler: we have the chance and the chioce to become aware of our conditioning though.
    arabella Ella nods to Wol
    Mickorod Renard: indigestion Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,we can read the paper instead of trusting the tv
    arabella Ella: or search all sorts of international papers on the web Mick
    arabella Ella: get diverse slants
    arabella Ella: takes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, economic downturns actually reduce international news so have to be persistent...
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: I think the ones in power rely on the masses not to get that involved in the truths
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    arabella Ella: well there are many institutions that try to control our thinking ... but whether they do or not is up to us as mature thinking beings
    Eliza Madrigal: One might have to make a full time job in order to be actually 'fully informed'...
    arabella Ella: :)
    Lia Rikugun: yes...
    Lia Rikugun: hello bertram
    Agatha Macbeth: nods to Eliza
    arabella Ella: would be nice ... but time seems to be such a precious resource nowadays
    Liza Deischer: hi Bert
    arabella Ella: Hiya Bert
    Mickorod Renard: and how much voice do those who truly suffer have?
    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Berti!
    Bertram Jacobus: hi everybody ... :-)
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Bert
    Wol Euler: hello bert

    huge information on the web and platform to express our concerns

    arabella Ella: the web has given us such a huge platform to express our concerns ...
    Liza Deischer: Slowly I get less interested in news
    Liza Deischer: especially the political one
    arabella Ella: depends which news Liza
    arabella Ella: local political news is often boring
    Mickorod Renard: I think most of us here are lucky in being in countries where a balance is maintained,,,loosly fair
    Liza Deischer: it is not the boring part
    Bertram Jacobus: (lia told me what you are talkin about - ty again here) :-)
    arabella Ella: which is the boring part then for you?
    arabella Ella: :)
    Lia Rikugun: :) to bertram
    Liza Deischer: well, I guess it is about trust and what you can do
    Mickorod Renard: but many who live in area's where they cannot access computors are likely to be in an unfair area
    arabella Ella: could you say more Liza?
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Ara and Liza... yes there is potential to be focused and rather informed on things one decides to have a voice about, etc
    Liza Deischer: The more I get closer to myself

    TMI - too much information > information boycott?

    Calvino Rabeni: #TMI
    Liza Deischer: it seems that that means that I get further off from all the political arguments
    Bertram Jacobus: tmi ? cal ? what is that, please ? :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: You may find yourself to be more or less already fully fomed
    Calvino Rabeni: *formed
    Calvino Rabeni: TMI is an acronym for Too Much Information
    Liza Deischer: there is so many you can read on just one topic
    Mickorod Renard: there is much unfairness that goes on ,,even in my local area,,i feel bad that I am so inactive about it
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, perhaps less mired?
    Calvino Rabeni: You may want to join the information boycott
    Agatha Macbeth: Or Geoff Boycott
    Lia Rikugun: what is that?
    Eliza Madrigal: ?
    Mickorod Renard: how does that work cal?
    arabella Ella: but Calvino for me in life ... part of life is the learning curve ... and can you have learning with no information?
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Bertram Jacobus: mick ... i think ... one can never do "enough" ... so it´s not always correct to feel bad about that ...
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a matter of balance
    Mickorod Renard: experience?
    Calvino Rabeni: Most are flooded now with information
    Liza Deischer: Well, there is something in between no information and a lot of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes

    signal and noise - focusing on specific information

    Wol Euler points to the distinction between "signal" and "noise"
    Liza Deischer: but I think to me it is more: where are you focusing on?
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    arabella Ella nods to liza
    Eliza Madrigal: News can be an addiction... people can get wrapped up in every story...
    arabella Ella: i think balance is fine, one focuses of course ... but information boycott seems to be going too far
    Calvino Rabeni: Focusing is about who you are, not about the information
    Wol Euler: right.
    Mickorod Renard: its all very clever really,,too much information can be like disinformation,,then the information becomes useless
    Calvino Rabeni: Information sabbath then ? Occasional fast?
    arabella Ella: but let me give one example
    Liza Deischer: and about how you want to perceive information
    Calvino Rabeni: Just a little, to shake up the addiction
    Eliza Madrigal: agree
    arabella Ella: Storm gave us the link to a video in this session yesterday
    arabella Ella: and i watched it
    arabella Ella: but then it led to more and more links
    Calvino Rabeni: @ara :) ACCK, no more links please :)
    arabella Ella: but it does not always have to be an addiction, Calvino, because as Wol said, it is possible to distinguish between signal and noise and to filter information which interests us
    Mickorod Renard: so the proof of the cake is in the tasting?
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Ara.... yes! we can do things to not let that chain rule 'over' us... make active choices.
    Calvino Rabeni: You are not a machine, machines filter things
    arabella Ella: dont worry Calvino, no links from me
    Lia Rikugun: i think thats true calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: The world is also fully formed, not a noisy channel
    Mickorod Renard: well,,i am not so sure
    arabella Ella: but i was reading ... the trend for example is to move away from hard copy books ... towards e-books and consoles to read them on
    Eliza Madrigal followed a you tube chain link of mantras today... was quite nice actually :)
    arabella Ella: and just imagine how the next generation will perceive the printed word
    Wol Euler: wb aggers
    Mickorod Renard: one day I am sure I will see on the tv that we are in the end machines

    agatha suddenly went offline and came back after a few moments

    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry. Yas just fell over and turned me off!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Liza Deischer: wb Agatha
    Mickorod Renard: watz a yas?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yas is the Bratz doll who lives on top of my computer
    Wol Euler grins.
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh... I have tiny green aliens
    Agatha Macbeth: She's a regular anarchist sometimes
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: hah

    is information getting worse with so much of it? - filtering information

    arabella Ella: @ Calvino ... done we as humans filter information through our perception?
    Agatha Macbeth: Is it catching Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: it might be
    Mickorod Renard: I am actually disapointed that we may be percieved by science as nothing but mechanical blubber
    Calvino Rabeni: Ara, no I dont think so
    Agatha Macbeth: oooh I'll move then :)
    Eliza Madrigal: we're science too, Mick
    Liza Deischer: And you can ask yourself if the information is getting better now we have so many of it
    arabella Ella: @ Liza ... there is good and there is bad of course
    Eliza Madrigal: you may be far enough away Agatha.. but they may help tame your yas
    Calvino Rabeni: Partly I meant, boycott "informationthe concept" as a metaphor for what you do and what your mind is
    Liza Deischer: true Ara, I don't deny that
    arabella Ella: you dont think we filter information Calvino ... if we dont filter info we could not even take a decision to cross a busy road with so much 'noise'
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't mean so much, pull the plug on your computer
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods... can't pull the plug on the new collective unconscious ;-)
    arabella Ella: if we pulled out our PC or laptop plugs then none of us would be here

    "truth seems to depend on who's side is telling it"

    Mickorod Renard: I have often wanteed someone just to tell me the truth,,about the second world war,,or why there is conflict in the middle east,,yet the truth seems to depend on who's side is telling it
    arabella Ella: and laptops have long life batteries too :)
    Lia Rikugun: so truth is personel?
    Liza Deischer: exactly Mick, that's the whole point
    arabella Ella: perhaps you need to explore the concept of truth Mick
    Mickorod Renard: exactly
    Lia Rikugun: hm tahts intersting
    Calvino Rabeni: From doug's point of view, little currency symbols are running up the wire, into my laptop and coming out the pixels on the screen
    arabella Ella: IMHO truth is different perspectives
    Mickorod Renard: well,,who's truth is it anyway,,the polititians, comerce?
    Mickorod Renard: is it our truth,,for ordinary people
    arabella Ella: everyone ... and no one

    general truth?

    Lia Rikugun: is there a general truth?
    Eliza Madrigal: What a question :)
    Wol Euler: no (IMHO YMMV)
    Mickorod Renard: that would be told by an ordinary person,,and news isnt
    Wol Euler: many things are true, but The Singular Truth does not exist.
    arabella Ella nods to Wol
    Calvino Rabeni: About the "truth" of ordinary people - my mother read "This is Water" and said, do you think that's actually how people go around seeing others ?
    Wol Euler: the trouble with "what caused the war" is often that both explanations are true.
    Eliza Madrigal nods... and none of the explanations are true, too
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that how we think others perceive others?
    arabella Ella: but Wol, then niehter explanation it a complete one
    Wol Euler: but people want only one to be true, becuase they want "our side" to be in the right
    Mickorod Renard: I dont think we ever get to know the real truth,,its too ambarrasing
    Wol Euler: indeed, ara, that is why there is no Perfect Singular Truth
    Calvino Rabeni: Comparing is good, it might be less embarrasing the assumed
    Mickorod Renard: its about someone getting their pockets filled
    Eliza Madrigal must be going, thank you everyone!
    Calvino Rabeni: Or not
    Agatha Macbeth: 'There are three sides to every story: yours, theirs and the truth'
    Liza Deischer: what interest me more is why people are telling what they are telling
    Liza Deischer: what moves them?

    isnt it possible to see things from a general angle? or arent we trying to do this in PaB? (maybe I did not understand all of the conversation but I got a little confused at that point)

    Lia Rikugun: but arent we trying to loose a single perspective
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Eliza :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Can't know unless you actually ask and express
    arabella Ella: bye Eliza
    Liza Deischer: bye Eliza
    Lia Rikugun: and see things from a general angle
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
    arabella Ella: the problem sometimes is that some 'truths' are only half truths
    Calvino Rabeni: Seeing things from a general angle went out, with Picasso
    Lia Rikugun: i dont understand
    arabella Ella: and with Thomas Nagel too Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Now we see things from many angles at once
    Mickorod Renard: its now abstract
    Wol Euler: and James Joyce, for that matter
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Not abstract, it is more intricate than before
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry - was only a very short visit today - but i´m soo hungry - like to eat - cu later all - have a nice time ! :-)
    Liza Deischer: what is it you don't undestand Lia
    Bertram Jacobus: cu
    Wol Euler: bye bert, enjoy.
    Mickorod Renard: bye bert
    Lia Rikugun: bye bertram nice to see you
    Agatha Macbeth: Auf wiedersehen Berti
    Mickorod Renard: c u in a mom
    Bertram Jacobus: ty :-))
    arabella Ella: nite Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: :-))
    Liza Deischer: nite Bert
    Mickorod Renard: its nearly time for Wok
    Agatha Macbeth: The return of Zon!
    Lia Rikugun: what picasso or nagel or joyce did
    Zon Quar: lol
    arabella Ella: wb Zon
    Mickorod Renard: hi zon
    Zon Quar: ty.. i was doing some tai chi

    the view from nowhere bye Thomas Nagel

    arabella Ella: ok Nagel wrote a book called The View from Nowhere
    Agatha Macbeth: I take mine without sugar :)
    arabella Ella: where he argued that it is impossible to be objective
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Zon Quar: nods
    arabella Ella: every view is from a subjective perspective
    Wol Euler: and Calvino and I have an appointment with Pema to talk about the wiki
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I must go for some ways of knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: same same
    Zon Quar: if all is perceptions..what is objectivity ?
    Mickorod Renard: no answer
    arabella Ella: Nagel argues that there is no objectivity
    Liza Deischer: bye mick
    Agatha Macbeth: Have fun!
    arabella Ella: it is not possible from a human thinking perspective
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Zon Quar: what is objectivity by definition ?
    Calvino Rabeni: GTG, but I'd love to talk postmodernism and post-postmodernism later :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm off to Kira
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, bye
    Wol Euler: bye for now, my dears, take care
    Lia Rikugun: BYE
    Liza Deischer: bye Wol, Cal, Mick
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye all
    Zon Quar: whats on Kira ?
    Lia Rikugun: I think i will go there too
    Lia Rikugun: ways of knowing
    Yakuzza Lethecus: cya there
    Zon Quar: ah
    Liza Deischer: bye Yaku
    arabella Ella: bye to all those leaving
    Zon Quar: i think i go too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Agatha Macbeth: Night all, sleep well :)
    Zon Quar: bye
    Lia Rikugun: good night
    Lia Rikugun: bye ybe
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: suddenly quiet
    Liza Deischer: aahhhhhh
    arabella Ella: nite Lia
    Liza Deischer: nite Lia
    Lia Rikugun: not yet will go to WoK a little ;)
    Lia Rikugun: you take care!
    Lia Rikugun: bye
    Liza Deischer: okay, have ufun
    arabella Ella: oh enjooy wok then
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