2010.01.09 19:00 - Revisiting dreams

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    This session began a bit slowly but gathered interest as we began to talk about dreams and dreaming.  As often occurs the session went well beyond the hour mark when I had to leave.

    Maxine Walden: Hi, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Maxine
    Maxine Walden: How are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Very well, thanks.
    Calvino Rabeni: How's your self and world?
    Maxine Walden: Myself and the world or in the world are good, thanks.
    Maxine Walden: You have been very active lately in PaB, from the chatlogs and seeing your participation; seems to be interesting you a lot?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's fair to say...
    Maxine Walden: glad to hear it
    Calvino Rabeni: Involvements often go in familiar patterns, don't you think?
    Maxine Walden: How do you mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: For me, it has come to a second stage past the initial one, where there is familiarity and knowledge of what is involved.
    Calvino Rabeni: Experience progresses
    Maxine Walden: evolutions,,,
    Calvino Rabeni: It does evolve, usually in familiar patterns.
    Maxine Walden: Often in familiar patterns, but sometimes in my experience, very unanticipated things can happen...which is part of the intrigue
    Calvino Rabeni: Usually it's possible to know the backdrop, the lay of the land so to speak, but not the specific things that emerge.
    Maxine Walden: But perhaps that is not your experience
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed it is
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there are some universals but also, one's unique world of experience is a major provider of perspectives on what happens.
    Maxine Walden: Indeed, it seems to me that our expectations often shape our perceptions.
    Calvino Rabeni: So I'm curious about others' perspectives, I like the mix that happens when people can bring it into the discussion.
    Maxine Walden: One reason I came into the PaB was to see 'beyond my discipline' that is via new perspectives, but yes I bring a certain set of lenses
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eden
    Eden Haiku: Hi Maxine ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Eden
    Maxine Walden: We are talking about our lenses and how they impact our perceptions and perhaps our expectations
    Eden Haiku: Hi!
    Eden Haiku: Ah, thanks.
    Maxine Walden: Calvino was wondering about my lens, which has been shaped by lot of years studying different aspects of the mind, the psyche
    Maxine Walden: And I was just trying to get some thoughts togehter.
    Maxine Walden: hi Steve
    Eden Haiku: hello Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maxine, cal and Eden
    Calvino Rabeni: I've gathered, Maxine, you work with the public in a helping capacity
    Eden Haiku: You have been giving a workshop on dreams I believe Maxine. The dream realm must be part of your way of seeing maybe?
    Maxine Walden: Yes, I try to help others in the area of understanding the mind, maybe the hidden parts of the mind, the psyche, those aspects which are not in our awareness

    We begin to talk about dreams.

    Maxine Walden: Yes, dreams are one aspect I have a lot of interest in.
    Calvino Rabeni: You have a private practice, or via a service organization, Maxine?
    Maxine Walden: I do both, private practice and teach
    Maxine Walden: others about the unconscious aspects of the mind
    Calvino Rabeni: And your clients, are they individuals who are there on their own accord to work with personal issues?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or do groups and somewhat unwilling clients also figure in?
    Calvino Rabeni: As might happen in family therapy?
    Maxine Walden: All the people I work with come voluntarily, out of interest, curiosity about themselves or because there seems to be 'something not quite right' in their own experience
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you teach in an academic setting, or a professional training organization?
    Maxine Walden: Both, the university and several psychoanalytic institutes
    Calvino Rabeni: BTW it feels "nosy" to ask questions like this online somehow, but I think it would be pretty easy at a casual social setting
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Maxine Walden: Wondering about our turning our attention to some PaB issues, questions; I would be happy to give my thoughts...along with others
    stevenaia Michinaga: Wonders if anyone in the group has dreamed a PaB meditation?
    Eden Haiku: Nope, not me
    Eden Haiku: Hello Archmage!
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose we can imagine such as dream as easilly as we can Ys Bs, Dream sees
    Eden Haiku: ;)
    Maxine Walden: interesting idea, Steve: Dream sees
    Archmage Atlantis: Listening to Lady Gaga
    Maxine Walden: I think that the dream which comes from the unconscious sometimes sees more clearly than our consciously seeing selves
    Archmage Atlantis: Not quite here yet
    Eden Haiku: my cat is dreaming right not and she is making sounds...
    stevenaia Michinaga: Is a dream, a "You See Dream", or just a dream you are in
    Maxine Walden: And the dream can give guidance if we know how to receive it
    stevenaia Michinaga: know how? are there ways?
    Eden Haiku: Are you going to give the dream workshop again sometime Maxine? I would love to attend.
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, I am on the pillow that willl not let me sit as male
    Maxine Walden: I think we each develop ways to 'listen' to our dreams or try to think about them. In my experience letting the dream sort of be there, until it makes sense is useful
    stevenaia Michinaga: (probably a simplistic question)
    Maxine Walden: yes, Eden, the dream workshop begins again this coming Tuesday 12th 1pm SL at the Kira Cafe
    stevenaia Michinaga: Ways of Knowing, Ways of Dreaming
    Maxine Walden: yes, Steve
    Archmage Atlantis: I dream...
    Archmage Atlantis: Those of power always dream
    Eden Haiku: Oh nice, but I won't be able to make it this week unfortunately. is it ok to attend on week 2?
    Maxine Walden: oh, course, Eden, any time it works for you
    Archmage Atlantis: Those who are to lead see the futures
    Eden Haiku: Thanks!
    Archmage Atlantis: And chose amoung them
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in that area too Maxine, so I think I'll stop by.
    stevenaia Michinaga: The logs are Posted Eden, on the kira website
    Maxine Walden: Perhaps, Arch, but in my experience we best grasp the dream when we are feeling humble and trying to understand, not to have power
    Maxine Walden: oh, good, Calvino
    Archmage Atlantis: I did not sat to have power
    Eden Haiku: Oh, thank you Steve. I wasn't aware of these logs..
    Archmage Atlantis: Humble = willing to accept
    Maxine Walden: ah, sorry if I misunderstood, Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Accepting to lead, that is very humbling
    Archmage Atlantis: Very painful

    We consider dreams as providing important functions for our conscious selves

    stevenaia Michinaga: Maxine, I take short naps (less than 20 minutes) in the afternoon sometimes resulting in vivd images and bursts of stories, can dreams occure in such a sort time
    Maxine Walden: One point, Steve, were you mentioning the logs of the dream workshop? If so, just need to say that there are not any posted logs; we decided early on not to post logs out of privacy for the dreams shared in the workshop
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams can occur while at a traffic light, Steve
    Maxine Walden: Oh, yes, Steve, often very significant dreams occur in such times
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, these must be older logs then
    Maxine Walden: I often find that I 'have to have a dream' to move forward and often do so via a nap in the afternoon as you suggest
    Maxine Walden: yes, there were some early logs that were posted.
    Eden Haiku: Akashik logs then, posted on ether!
    Calvino Rabeni: Same with me - I'm not a big sleeper, but often I go to bed just to dream
    Calvino Rabeni: Theres a "have to have a dream" feeling I am familiar with
    Maxine Walden: Yes, that feeling of needing 'help' to think about something...often leads to a dream as the helper
    Maxine Walden: I find that fascinating, and have come to view the dream as coming from some deep, very deep intelligence
    Archmage Atlantis: E tells in a song to me "I will always love you"
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes there is some kind of "trouble" brewing - maybe about someone else's problems
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree, Maxine
    Calvino Rabeni: I consider it a major intelligence
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders what it is doing "down there" so deeply
    Maxine Walden: Did not fully understand, Arch
    Eden Haiku: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Two reasons, shadow and distance
    Archmage Atlantis: "we will rise up together"
    Calvino Rabeni: That feels right Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: "to the end of time"
    Maxine Walden: You know, I have come to wonder whether the intelligence of the dream may be akin to aspects of Being, something bigger than we are, but intimately linked to us
    Maxine Walden: Still trying to do some thinking about this but it is intriguing
    stevenaia Michinaga: was thinking something similar just now
    Maxine Walden: oh, Steve? Interesting
    Archmage Atlantis: "rock-aby,,,,the city, the land, we are more"
    stevenaia Michinaga: being comes from (is seen from) that place dreams comes from
    stevenaia Michinaga: big B
    Eden Haiku: Thinking about the Oversoul of the Urantia Cosmology...Not remembering exactly what I read, years ago
    Maxine Walden: yes, Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: googling that one
    Maxine Walden: Ah, Eden, not familiar with Urantia
    Calvino Rabeni: This might or might not come under the same idea - but when we do an oracle like the I Ching, I think of it as a dream like query into reality
    Maxine Walden: yes, deserves a google
    Maxine Walden: interesting, Calvino
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book
    stevenaia Michinaga: is that it, Eden?
    Calvino Rabeni: A form of active dreaming
    Calvino Rabeni: Max Crashed

    Indeed I had crashed, returning as soon as I could

    stevenaia Michinaga: wb Maxine
    Eden Haiku: Yes, I'm reading it. Thanks!
    Maxine Walden: yes, crashed...
    Archmage Atlantis: An example of human knowledge
    Archmage Atlantis: It crashes
    Archmage Atlantis: How do we make it more "crashproof"
    Eden Haiku: Can't see the oversoul I was remembering though, but I read it in French so..It was something like a Soul that connected many souls, a kind of intermediary between Being and us.
    Maxine Walden: (wondering what happens to the first chatlog when I crashed, as I am goc. will it come to me as well as this one? Anyone know?)
    Eden Haiku: Yes, it will Maxine, I,m pretty sure,
    Maxine Walden: thanks, Eden
    stevenaia Michinaga: you will let us know, check the weblink and see if it appears in tack now
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise
    Maxine Walden: hi, Paradise
    Archmage Atlantis: Brian Henegen, Piano in the Night, Pachabel - Canon Variations
    Eden Haiku: Hello Paradise!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve .. arch .. cal .. maxine ..eden
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Paradise
    Maxine Walden: I am going to have to go, as the hour is over. Nice to see everyone. Hope to see you all again soon.
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps Dreams, Concept of Being that tell us something about reality have a common place within us, a dream is a dream, no matter who has them
    Eden Haiku: Thnak you Maxine,
    Paradise Tennant: have a good nite maxine ... sweet dreams :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Max
    Maxine Walden: bye all
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Maxine
    Archmage Atlantis: The future. Maxie
    Archmage Atlantis: Good luck
    stevenaia Michinaga: suppose I was getting into neuroscience
    Eden Haiku: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: Identities are very fluid in dreams - they don't hold the same boundaries
    stevenaia Michinaga: places in the brain
    Calvino Rabeni: That's definitely up Fox's street, wish she were here
    Archmage Atlantis: There is no separation between neuroscience and dreams and indentity
    stevenaia Michinaga: exactly, and I know so little about those things
    Eden Haiku: According to the Urantia Book, each of us is limked to a Thought Adjster that leads our soul.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but I suspect the neuroscientists don;t either
    Archmage Atlantis: Because science is to them a religion
    Archmage Atlantis: And that is not a bad thing
    Paradise Tennant: huston smith wrote a great book autobiography called tales of wonder captures many moment of awe where the boundaries .. have shifted in the course of ordinary life
    Calvino Rabeni: It is more interesting to me to focus on the interdisciplinary scientists, compared to the dogmatic ones
    Paradise Tennant: was curled up reading it ealier tonight
    Eden Haiku: Tales of Wonder. looking it up...
    Paradise Tennant: what is the urantia book?
    Archmage Atlantis: Someone has to do the data collection
    Archmage Atlantis: To lead is to love
    Eden Haiku: http://www.harpercollins.ca/books/9780061154263/Tales_of_Wonder/index.aspx?AA=index_authorIntro_9210
    Eden Haiku: Steve gace us the link earlier. Something in the conversation about dreams and Being reminded me this book I read years ago.
    Eden Haiku: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book
    Paradise Tennant: ;) often thinks dreaming is like eating dessert really .. another layer of experience that is an added treat
    Eden Haiku: Yes ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Usually like that - fun - but sometimes disturbing also
    Paradise Tennant: thank you eden looks interesting
    Paradise Tennant: yes .. can be disturbing
    Paradise Tennant: do you remember your dreams cal
    Archmage Atlantis: I go home, some will be invited
    Eden Haiku: I'm looking at the video about 'Tales of Wonder', very interesting!
    Paradise Tennant: have a lovely evening arch :)
    Eden Haiku: Goodnite Arch!
    stevenaia Michinaga: video?
    stevenaia Michinaga: is there a link?
    Paradise Tennant: yes he has a lead a very rich interesting lie
    Paradise Tennant: life
    Calvino Rabeni: @para, yes I usually remember dreams if I want to
    Eden Haiku: Yes Steve, the link is up in the chat. Have a good evening everyone! Bye for now.
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eden
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Eden
    Calvino Rabeni: Everyy life has uncontrolled factors
    Calvino Rabeni: These enter by dreams oftimes
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite eden
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, a friend's illness - nothing I can do about it - becomes an occasion for dream
    Paradise Tennant: what happened in the dream
    Calvino Rabeni: It was interesting - the main idea is that I had her medical condition and she did not
    Calvino Rabeni: Reversal
    stevenaia Michinaga: empathy?
    Calvino Rabeni: You could interpret in various ways
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was thinking empathy,
    Calvino Rabeni: But it could also be fear of having it,
    stevenaia Michinaga: or seeing what they see/feel
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing I believe about dreams is they *always* merge multiple meanings together
    stevenaia Michinaga: whch could also be fear
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And perhaps, that is one reason they have to be dreams
    Calvino Rabeni: Because the awake mind can't handle multiple meanings as easily
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm
    Paradise Tennant: well maybe just easier to really see in dreams our sense of self is asleep .. grins
    Calvino Rabeni: But it really isnt - the dream mind is what gives meaing to every day life
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: blinks
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: In other words, (seems to me) the dream mind is awake during the day, rather then the awake mind being asleep at night
    stevenaia Michinaga: or jsut a doorway to feed things in for the dream to work on...later
    Paradise Tennant: ;) kind of you say tomato i say tomato because we would need to define sleep and awke
    Paradise Tennant: awake
    Paradise Tennant: not sure that can be done
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, the normal waking state, with the body walking around and doing things
    Paradise Tennant: hmm yes
    Calvino Rabeni: And the subconscious mind is also active
    Calvino Rabeni: But for the main part, unnoticed
    Paradise Tennant: but we walk around and do things in dreams too . and what is to say that it is less real
    Calvino Rabeni: However, giving meanings and shadings of significance to what happens
    Calvino Rabeni: even doing the main work in figuring out what is going on.
    Calvino Rabeni: I usually don't use the world "real" for that reason
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Just as "real",but not "the same thing"
    Calvino Rabeni: For people to understand dreams, it helps to invest them with some "reality"
    Calvino Rabeni: In order to take them more seriously
    Calvino Rabeni: I think pheno does that
    Calvino Rabeni: It tries to "play fair" to level the playing field for different types of experiences
    Paradise Tennant: what is pheno
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, "phenomenology", the philosophical interest of Pema
    stevenaia Michinaga: (I'm not spelling it)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be a lot more popular, with a better spelling
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: "awareness of your experience"
    Paradise Tennant: the more I work on my awareness ..the more often I get the sensation that regardless of circumstance .. everything is just as ti should be :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: were you expecting something else?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well often people play favorites
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes very often we play favourites
    Paradise Tennant: we indulge our preferences
    Paradise Tennant: learning to drop them ..is exhilerating
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, that is where we feel power, or usefuless, or driven there by fear, or whatever
    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of reasons for preferences, no?
    Calvino Rabeni: Culture tells what is important,what isn't.
    Paradise Tennant: yes our identity .. is sort of a blankie :)
    Calvino Rabeni: With so many demands on attention, it's hard to know where to put it
    Paradise Tennant: to create it .. we .. need to fabricate ..
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: So a lot of times, to go beyond those patterns, is like imagining a bridge over a chasm, and then walking across that bridge.
    Calvino Rabeni: Getting the right reinforcement from others seems very important
    Paradise Tennant: hmm no
    Paradise Tennant: more like settling into .. your true self .. like becoming a pool where the ripples ..slowly become still and then you really know what being a pond is like :)
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: For me, that is the raw material, but putting it into creative new forms takes an act of faith
    Calvino Rabeni: I dip into the pool you are talking about
    Calvino Rabeni: Then take it out
    Paradise Tennant: Your true self ... in new forms :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be a limitation of individual consciousness, but it feels like the "I" dips into the beyond-personal, pulls it through a channel, and puts it back out into the beyond-personal
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite steve ..gtsy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye steve
    Paradise Tennant: often I think I sole purpose is simply to observe creation .. be a witness to the beauty
    Paradise Tennant: *our
    Calvino Rabeni: I also must go now, I have dinner to attend. Great talking to you Paradise.
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that perspective
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite cal :)
    Paradise Tennant: enjoy your dinner :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night
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