2010.01.09 19:00 - Revisiting dreams

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

This session began a bit slowly but gathered interest as we began to talk about dreams and dreaming.  As often occurs the session went well beyond the hour mark when I had to leave.

Maxine Walden: Hi, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Maxine
Maxine Walden: How are you?
Calvino Rabeni: Very well, thanks.
Calvino Rabeni: How's your self and world?
Maxine Walden: Myself and the world or in the world are good, thanks.
Maxine Walden: You have been very active lately in PaB, from the chatlogs and seeing your participation; seems to be interesting you a lot?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's fair to say...
Maxine Walden: glad to hear it
Calvino Rabeni: Involvements often go in familiar patterns, don't you think?
Maxine Walden: How do you mean?
Calvino Rabeni: For me, it has come to a second stage past the initial one, where there is familiarity and knowledge of what is involved.
Calvino Rabeni: Experience progresses
Maxine Walden: evolutions,,,
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: It does evolve, usually in familiar patterns.
Maxine Walden: Often in familiar patterns, but sometimes in my experience, very unanticipated things can happen...which is part of the intrigue
Calvino Rabeni: Usually it's possible to know the backdrop, the lay of the land so to speak, but not the specific things that emerge.
Maxine Walden: But perhaps that is not your experience
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed it is
Calvino Rabeni: I think there are some universals but also, one's unique world of experience is a major provider of perspectives on what happens.
Maxine Walden: Indeed, it seems to me that our expectations often shape our perceptions.
Calvino Rabeni: So I'm curious about others' perspectives, I like the mix that happens when people can bring it into the discussion.
Maxine Walden: One reason I came into the PaB was to see 'beyond my discipline' that is via new perspectives, but yes I bring a certain set of lenses
Maxine Walden: hi, Eden
Eden Haiku: Hi Maxine ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: :) Eden
Maxine Walden: We are talking about our lenses and how they impact our perceptions and perhaps our expectations
Eden Haiku: Hi!
Eden Haiku: Ah, thanks.
Maxine Walden: Calvino was wondering about my lens, which has been shaped by lot of years studying different aspects of the mind, the psyche
Maxine Walden: And I was just trying to get some thoughts togehter.
Maxine Walden: hi Steve
Eden Haiku: hello Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maxine, cal and Eden
Calvino Rabeni: I've gathered, Maxine, you work with the public in a helping capacity
Eden Haiku: You have been giving a workshop on dreams I believe Maxine. The dream realm must be part of your way of seeing maybe?
Maxine Walden: Yes, I try to help others in the area of understanding the mind, maybe the hidden parts of the mind, the psyche, those aspects which are not in our awareness
--BELL--

We begin to talk about dreams.

Maxine Walden: Yes, dreams are one aspect I have a lot of interest in.
Calvino Rabeni: You have a private practice, or via a service organization, Maxine?
Maxine Walden: I do both, private practice and teach
Maxine Walden: others about the unconscious aspects of the mind
Calvino Rabeni: And your clients, are they individuals who are there on their own accord to work with personal issues?
Calvino Rabeni: Or do groups and somewhat unwilling clients also figure in?
Calvino Rabeni: As might happen in family therapy?
Maxine Walden: All the people I work with come voluntarily, out of interest, curiosity about themselves or because there seems to be 'something not quite right' in their own experience
Calvino Rabeni: Ah
Calvino Rabeni: Do you teach in an academic setting, or a professional training organization?
Maxine Walden: Both, the university and several psychoanalytic institutes
Calvino Rabeni: BTW it feels "nosy" to ask questions like this online somehow, but I think it would be pretty easy at a casual social setting
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Maxine Walden: Wondering about our turning our attention to some PaB issues, questions; I would be happy to give my thoughts...along with others
stevenaia Michinaga: Wonders if anyone in the group has dreamed a PaB meditation?
Eden Haiku: Nope, not me
Eden Haiku: Hello Archmage!
stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose we can imagine such as dream as easilly as we can Ys Bs, Dream sees
Eden Haiku: ;)
Maxine Walden: interesting idea, Steve: Dream sees
Archmage Atlantis: Listening to Lady Gaga
Maxine Walden: I think that the dream which comes from the unconscious sometimes sees more clearly than our consciously seeing selves
Archmage Atlantis: Not quite here yet
Eden Haiku: my cat is dreaming right not and she is making sounds...
stevenaia Michinaga: Is a dream, a "You See Dream", or just a dream you are in
Maxine Walden: And the dream can give guidance if we know how to receive it
stevenaia Michinaga: know how? are there ways?
Eden Haiku: Are you going to give the dream workshop again sometime Maxine? I would love to attend.
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, I am on the pillow that willl not let me sit as male
Maxine Walden: I think we each develop ways to 'listen' to our dreams or try to think about them. In my experience letting the dream sort of be there, until it makes sense is useful
stevenaia Michinaga: (probably a simplistic question)
Maxine Walden: yes, Eden, the dream workshop begins again this coming Tuesday 12th 1pm SL at the Kira Cafe
stevenaia Michinaga: Ways of Knowing, Ways of Dreaming
Maxine Walden: yes, Steve
Archmage Atlantis: I dream...
Archmage Atlantis: Those of power always dream
Eden Haiku: Oh nice, but I won't be able to make it this week unfortunately. is it ok to attend on week 2?
Maxine Walden: oh, course, Eden, any time it works for you
Archmage Atlantis: Those who are to lead see the futures
Eden Haiku: Thanks!
Archmage Atlantis: And chose amoung them
Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in that area too Maxine, so I think I'll stop by.
stevenaia Michinaga: The logs are Posted Eden, on the kira website
Maxine Walden: Perhaps, Arch, but in my experience we best grasp the dream when we are feeling humble and trying to understand, not to have power
Maxine Walden: oh, good, Calvino
Archmage Atlantis: I did not sat to have power
Eden Haiku: Oh, thank you Steve. I wasn't aware of these logs..
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: Humble = willing to accept
Maxine Walden: ah, sorry if I misunderstood, Arch
Archmage Atlantis: Accepting to lead, that is very humbling
Archmage Atlantis: Very painful

We consider dreams as providing important functions for our conscious selves

stevenaia Michinaga: Maxine, I take short naps (less than 20 minutes) in the afternoon sometimes resulting in vivd images and bursts of stories, can dreams occure in such a sort time
Maxine Walden: One point, Steve, were you mentioning the logs of the dream workshop? If so, just need to say that there are not any posted logs; we decided early on not to post logs out of privacy for the dreams shared in the workshop
Calvino Rabeni: Dreams can occur while at a traffic light, Steve
Maxine Walden: Oh, yes, Steve, often very significant dreams occur in such times
stevenaia Michinaga: awww, these must be older logs then
Maxine Walden: I often find that I 'have to have a dream' to move forward and often do so via a nap in the afternoon as you suggest
Maxine Walden: yes, there were some early logs that were posted.
Eden Haiku: Akashik logs then, posted on ether!
Calvino Rabeni: Same with me - I'm not a big sleeper, but often I go to bed just to dream
Calvino Rabeni: Theres a "have to have a dream" feeling I am familiar with
Maxine Walden: Yes, that feeling of needing 'help' to think about something...often leads to a dream as the helper
Maxine Walden: I find that fascinating, and have come to view the dream as coming from some deep, very deep intelligence
Archmage Atlantis: E tells in a song to me "I will always love you"
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes there is some kind of "trouble" brewing - maybe about someone else's problems
Calvino Rabeni: Agree, Maxine
Calvino Rabeni: I consider it a major intelligence
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders what it is doing "down there" so deeply
Maxine Walden: Did not fully understand, Arch
Eden Haiku: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Two reasons, shadow and distance
Archmage Atlantis: "we will rise up together"
Calvino Rabeni: That feels right Arch
Archmage Atlantis: "to the end of time"
Maxine Walden: You know, I have come to wonder whether the intelligence of the dream may be akin to aspects of Being, something bigger than we are, but intimately linked to us
Maxine Walden: Still trying to do some thinking about this but it is intriguing
stevenaia Michinaga: was thinking something similar just now
Maxine Walden: oh, Steve? Interesting
Archmage Atlantis: "rock-aby,,,,the city, the land, we are more"
stevenaia Michinaga: being comes from (is seen from) that place dreams comes from
stevenaia Michinaga: big B
Eden Haiku: Thinking about the Oversoul of the Urantia Cosmology...Not remembering exactly what I read, years ago
Maxine Walden: yes, Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: googling that one
Maxine Walden: Ah, Eden, not familiar with Urantia
Calvino Rabeni: This might or might not come under the same idea - but when we do an oracle like the I Ching, I think of it as a dream like query into reality
Maxine Walden: yes, deserves a google
Maxine Walden: interesting, Calvino
stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book
stevenaia Michinaga: is that it, Eden?
Calvino Rabeni: A form of active dreaming
Calvino Rabeni: Max Crashed

Indeed I had crashed, returning as soon as I could

stevenaia Michinaga: wb Maxine
Eden Haiku: Yes, I'm reading it. Thanks!
Maxine Walden: yes, crashed...
Archmage Atlantis: An example of human knowledge
Archmage Atlantis: It crashes
Archmage Atlantis: How do we make it more "crashproof"
Eden Haiku: Can't see the oversoul I was remembering though, but I read it in French so..It was something like a Soul that connected many souls, a kind of intermediary between Being and us.
Maxine Walden: (wondering what happens to the first chatlog when I crashed, as I am goc. will it come to me as well as this one? Anyone know?)
Eden Haiku: Yes, it will Maxine, I,m pretty sure,
Maxine Walden: thanks, Eden
stevenaia Michinaga: you will let us know, check the weblink and see if it appears in tack now
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise
Maxine Walden: hi, Paradise
Archmage Atlantis: Brian Henegen, Piano in the Night, Pachabel - Canon Variations
Eden Haiku: Hello Paradise!
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve .. arch .. cal .. maxine ..eden
Paradise Tennant: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Paradise
Maxine Walden: I am going to have to go, as the hour is over. Nice to see everyone. Hope to see you all again soon.
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps Dreams, Concept of Being that tell us something about reality have a common place within us, a dream is a dream, no matter who has them
Eden Haiku: Thnak you Maxine,
Paradise Tennant: have a good nite maxine ... sweet dreams :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye Max
Maxine Walden: bye all
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Maxine
Archmage Atlantis: The future. Maxie
Archmage Atlantis: Good luck
stevenaia Michinaga: suppose I was getting into neuroscience
Eden Haiku: yes?
Calvino Rabeni: Identities are very fluid in dreams - they don't hold the same boundaries
stevenaia Michinaga: places in the brain
Calvino Rabeni: That's definitely up Fox's street, wish she were here
Archmage Atlantis: There is no separation between neuroscience and dreams and indentity
stevenaia Michinaga: exactly, and I know so little about those things
Eden Haiku: According to the Urantia Book, each of us is limked to a Thought Adjster that leads our soul.
stevenaia Michinaga: but I suspect the neuroscientists don;t either
Archmage Atlantis: Because science is to them a religion
Archmage Atlantis: And that is not a bad thing
Paradise Tennant: huston smith wrote a great book autobiography called tales of wonder captures many moment of awe where the boundaries .. have shifted in the course of ordinary life
Calvino Rabeni: It is more interesting to me to focus on the interdisciplinary scientists, compared to the dogmatic ones
Paradise Tennant: was curled up reading it ealier tonight
Eden Haiku: Tales of Wonder. looking it up...
Paradise Tennant: what is the urantia book?
Archmage Atlantis: Someone has to do the data collection
Archmage Atlantis: To lead is to love
Eden Haiku: http://www.harpercollins.ca/books/9780061154263/Tales_of_Wonder/index.aspx?AA=index_authorIntro_9210
Eden Haiku: Steve gace us the link earlier. Something in the conversation about dreams and Being reminded me this book I read years ago.
Eden Haiku: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Urantia_Book
Paradise Tennant: ;) often thinks dreaming is like eating dessert really .. another layer of experience that is an added treat
Eden Haiku: Yes ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Usually like that - fun - but sometimes disturbing also
Paradise Tennant: thank you eden looks interesting
Paradise Tennant: yes .. can be disturbing
Paradise Tennant: do you remember your dreams cal
Archmage Atlantis: I go home, some will be invited
Eden Haiku: I'm looking at the video about 'Tales of Wonder', very interesting!
Paradise Tennant: have a lovely evening arch :)
Eden Haiku: Goodnite Arch!
stevenaia Michinaga: video?
stevenaia Michinaga: is there a link?
Paradise Tennant: yes he has a lead a very rich interesting lie
Paradise Tennant: life
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: @para, yes I usually remember dreams if I want to
Eden Haiku: Yes Steve, the link is up in the chat. Have a good evening everyone! Bye for now.
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eden
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Eden
Calvino Rabeni: Everyy life has uncontrolled factors
Calvino Rabeni: These enter by dreams oftimes
Paradise Tennant: nite nite eden
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: For example, a friend's illness - nothing I can do about it - becomes an occasion for dream
Paradise Tennant: what happened in the dream
Calvino Rabeni: It was interesting - the main idea is that I had her medical condition and she did not
Calvino Rabeni: Reversal
stevenaia Michinaga: empathy?
Calvino Rabeni: You could interpret in various ways
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was thinking empathy,
Calvino Rabeni: But it could also be fear of having it,
stevenaia Michinaga: or seeing what they see/feel
Calvino Rabeni: One thing I believe about dreams is they *always* merge multiple meanings together
stevenaia Michinaga: whch could also be fear
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: And perhaps, that is one reason they have to be dreams
Calvino Rabeni: Because the awake mind can't handle multiple meanings as easily
Paradise Tennant: hmmm
Paradise Tennant: well maybe just easier to really see in dreams our sense of self is asleep .. grins
Calvino Rabeni: But it really isnt - the dream mind is what gives meaing to every day life
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Paradise Tennant: blinks
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Calvino Rabeni: In other words, (seems to me) the dream mind is awake during the day, rather then the awake mind being asleep at night
stevenaia Michinaga: or jsut a doorway to feed things in for the dream to work on...later
Paradise Tennant: ;) kind of you say tomato i say tomato because we would need to define sleep and awke
Paradise Tennant: awake
Paradise Tennant: not sure that can be done
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, the normal waking state, with the body walking around and doing things
Paradise Tennant: hmm yes
Calvino Rabeni: And the subconscious mind is also active
Calvino Rabeni: But for the main part, unnoticed
Paradise Tennant: but we walk around and do things in dreams too . and what is to say that it is less real
Calvino Rabeni: However, giving meanings and shadings of significance to what happens
Calvino Rabeni: even doing the main work in figuring out what is going on.
Calvino Rabeni: I usually don't use the world "real" for that reason
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Calvino Rabeni: Just as "real",but not "the same thing"
Calvino Rabeni: For people to understand dreams, it helps to invest them with some "reality"
Calvino Rabeni: In order to take them more seriously
Calvino Rabeni: I think pheno does that
Calvino Rabeni: It tries to "play fair" to level the playing field for different types of experiences
Paradise Tennant: what is pheno
Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, "phenomenology", the philosophical interest of Pema
stevenaia Michinaga: (I'm not spelling it)
Paradise Tennant: lol
Calvino Rabeni: It would be a lot more popular, with a better spelling
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: "awareness of your experience"
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: the more I work on my awareness ..the more often I get the sensation that regardless of circumstance .. everything is just as ti should be :)
stevenaia Michinaga: were you expecting something else?
Calvino Rabeni: Well often people play favorites
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: yes very often we play favourites
Paradise Tennant: we indulge our preferences
Paradise Tennant: learning to drop them ..is exhilerating
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, that is where we feel power, or usefuless, or driven there by fear, or whatever
Calvino Rabeni: Lots of reasons for preferences, no?
Calvino Rabeni: Culture tells what is important,what isn't.
Paradise Tennant: yes our identity .. is sort of a blankie :)
Calvino Rabeni: With so many demands on attention, it's hard to know where to put it
Paradise Tennant: to create it .. we .. need to fabricate ..
Paradise Tennant: yes
Calvino Rabeni: So a lot of times, to go beyond those patterns, is like imagining a bridge over a chasm, and then walking across that bridge.
Calvino Rabeni: Getting the right reinforcement from others seems very important
Paradise Tennant: hmm no
Paradise Tennant: more like settling into .. your true self .. like becoming a pool where the ripples ..slowly become still and then you really know what being a pond is like :)
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Calvino Rabeni: For me, that is the raw material, but putting it into creative new forms takes an act of faith
Calvino Rabeni: I dip into the pool you are talking about
Calvino Rabeni: Then take it out
Paradise Tennant: Your true self ... in new forms :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go
Calvino Rabeni: It might be a limitation of individual consciousness, but it feels like the "I" dips into the beyond-personal, pulls it through a channel, and puts it back out into the beyond-personal
Paradise Tennant: nite nite steve ..gtsy :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye steve
Paradise Tennant: often I think I sole purpose is simply to observe creation .. be a witness to the beauty
Paradise Tennant: *our
Calvino Rabeni: I also must go now, I have dinner to attend. Great talking to you Paradise.
Calvino Rabeni: I like that perspective
Paradise Tennant: nite nite cal :)
Paradise Tennant: enjoy your dinner :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good night