2010.01.11 01:00 - Avatars want to be Human

 The Guardian for this session was Tarmel Udimo.

Tarmel Udimo: just you and the birds?
Calvino Rabeni: Just those birds and myself
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.
Tarmel Udimo: so all quiet:)
Tarmel Udimo: I'm curious as a scientist do you think that Sl starts to affect the naturel brain aptterns?
Calvino Rabeni: In a normal learning kind of way
Tarmel Udimo: I guess I am wondering about long term effects
Calvino Rabeni: If I had to guess, I would say, an unhealthy effect would result from overexposure to SL
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Tarmel Udimo: and what do you think they maybe:)
Tarmel Udimo: have you expereinced any?
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps.
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Calvino Rabeni: But long term, I think would include developmental effects
Calvino Rabeni: As would happen to children, or to adults with long term use
Calvino Rabeni: if it were out of proportion to more natural activities
Calvino Rabeni: I think people underestimate the subtle effects of media
Tarmel Udimo: yes its so prevelant that we almost forget how much it shapes us
Calvino Rabeni: It shapes in many ways, from more physical to more conceptual
Calvino Rabeni: The mind can project a lot into a small interface, but the entire mind/body dynamic is altered
Tarmel Udimo: you mean as in SL?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes for instance, or even TV
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Calvino Rabeni: virtual reality is very little like our normal world, what we evolved to live in
Tarmel Udimo: I think TV has been around long enough that people no longer fall under its spell as much as they used to - I hope!
Tarmel Udimo: I agree about virtual reality, but some AV's try very hard to replicate
Tarmel Udimo: very few use it to explore new horizons
Tarmel Udimo: (replicate reality)
Calvino Rabeni: AV stands for ?
Tarmel Udimo: avatar
Tarmel Udimo: Calvino and tarmel
-- BELL --
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, the little man in the box
Tarmel Udimo: yes those two
Tarmel Udimo: Tarmel has developed a strong personality without my even meaning to
Calvino Rabeni: What about "Tarmel" do you consider strong?
Tarmel Udimo: well lets see
Tarmel Udimo: She is very staright ahead
Tarmel Udimo: she's not so much into a social scene
Tarmel Udimo: she prefers to know that a male AV represents and a amle person and not a female even though she understands the need for experimentation
Tarmel Udimo: she doesn't buy dresses
Tarmel Udimo: etc etc etc
Tarmel Udimo: what about calvino?
Calvino Rabeni: not into a social scene, compared to the one who operates tarmel?
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Tarmel Udimo: I think the one who oprates Tarmel is a little more outgoing:)
Calvino Rabeni: OK, interesting - I hear others say the opposite
Calvino Rabeni: As for calvino, probably no difference in sociality
Tarmel Udimo: what that their AV is freer than they are?
Calvino Rabeni: They imagine so
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Calvino Rabeni: People who have physical disabilities or social ones sometimes find their SL "selves" more manageable in their SL "world"
Tarmel Udimo: yes I can see that applaud that, I think its great that this exists
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I acknowledge that
Calvino Rabeni: There are many opportunities - I think most of them are conceptual
Tarmel Udimo: well you know I had some friends over recently that were dying to know about SL, so i let them chat
Tarmel Udimo: with a few friends, but because they were not me, Tarmel was behaving and saying things Tarmel would not normally and it really effected me
Tarmel Udimo: much more than I thought it would
Calvino Rabeni: SL is a bit of a dream state
Calvino Rabeni: In dreams, the physical body is inhibited
Tarmel Udimo: OK
Calvino Rabeni: and mental projections construct a lot, including "alter egos"
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Tarmel Udimo: I was surpised
Tarmel Udimo: after all I know Tarmel doesn't exist
Calvino Rabeni: Tarmel is an alter ego of you the human
Calvino Rabeni: in a shared dream
Calvino Rabeni: that is sufficient real for lots of drama to emerge
Tarmel Udimo: nods, understand
Tarmel Udimo: but I think she is a different 'alter ego', aspect of myself, to the one that I have in RL
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, conditions are different, the rules are different, so tarmel is accordingly appropriate to that
Tarmel Udimo: and Calvino, is he like your alter ego?
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino is an alter ego of me-the-human
-- BELL --
Calvino Rabeni: I like your curiousity about this topic
Tarmel Udimo: why is that?
Calvino Rabeni: because sharing an interest with someone is enticing to me, probably to most people
Calvino Rabeni: Humans have natural curiousity
Tarmel Udimo: yes but I guess I was curious about why you like my curiosty about the 'topic'
Tarmel Udimo: are you curious about the difference between you and your AV?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes a bit, but more than that, I am curious about your intelligence
Calvino Rabeni: As a dynamic thing
Calvino Rabeni: This is what gets people into SL to begin with I think
Tarmel Udimo: that's an interesting idea
Tarmel Udimo: SL+intelligence
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's the real reason to be here
Calvino Rabeni: If I thought Tarmel were run by an AI, I would lose interest pretty quickly
Tarmel Udimo: to exaimine intelligence
Calvino Rabeni: Because it could only reflect myself, and I'd find that too limiting
Tarmel Udimo: well she might be a better speller (where is spell check when you need it?):)
Calvino Rabeni: SL puts way too much emphasis on language, unbalancing humans
Tarmel Udimo: yes except in a way I wonder whether we spend most of our reflecting back ourselves byt the people and situations we choose?
Tarmel Udimo: *time
Calvino Rabeni: People don't want to live in a mirror world
Tarmel Udimo: they don't but we do often...
Tarmel Udimo: we surround ourselves with safe options
Calvino Rabeni: And seek beyond it constantly
Tarmel Udimo: some do, true
Calvino Rabeni: everyone does
Calvino Rabeni: some don't know how to do it effectively perhaps
Tarmel Udimo: I would say - hope for - not realising its up to them to do it, so i guess we are saying the same thing
Calvino Rabeni: Humans are restless creatures - the restlessness expresses a desire for "something more"
Tarmel Udimo: but not always 'better'
Calvino Rabeni: Hard to say, isn't it? How do you discriminate?
Tarmel Udimo: yes being human being alive is such a uniqely personal sexpereince
Calvino Rabeni: A freudian slip :)
Calvino Rabeni: But it's correct in a way
Tarmel Udimo: hahaha yes I guess so, i was going to comment but thought I'd wait to see if you noticed:)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: The principle of Eros drives the world at many levels
Calvino Rabeni: any creation of something new, any curiosity or desire to explore new territiories, to go beyond boundaries
Tarmel Udimo: true, which really represents the hope of true emersion in another human
Tarmel Udimo: that we are not alone, that we can really join in union with another
Tarmel Udimo: I beleive this is at the center of it all
Tarmel Udimo: which is of course a spiritual hunger for emersion in the life force
Calvino Rabeni: Yes.
-- BELL --
Calvino Rabeni: The soul - whatever you want to call it, flows into SL as into other areas for that purpose. It finds different conditions in SL and takes different forms.
Calvino Rabeni: I could make a list of good things and bad things about SL
Calvino Rabeni: Can't really compare.
Tarmel Udimo: good point about the soul
Calvino Rabeni: Or weigh them against the other
Calvino Rabeni: However, I think, users of SL should learn to beware of the unhealthy aspects and so something about it
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: agree
Calvino Rabeni: So they won't be subject to the negative effects.
Tarmel Udimo: I think its very easy for instance to get very emotionl in SL
Calvino Rabeni: I have arranged to handle the negative effects as well as I can
Tarmel Udimo: emotional
Tarmel Udimo: arranged?
Calvino Rabeni: Well, that's complicated
Tarmel Udimo: how can you do this?
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, emotionality in SL is complicated
Calvino Rabeni: :) which first, emotionality or my "arrangements"?
Tarmel Udimo: ahh and how have you arranged to handle negative effects?
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
Calvino Rabeni: Imagine, if you took a normal person, but made it impossible to move their head, and made them watch the world through a small square, and with one eye (no depth), and everything they saw was a fake replica of real things, and they coudn't reach out and touch anything, or have physical contact, or look into someone's eyes, etc, or move all their body at once, or ....
Calvino Rabeni: Do you see what I'm getting at about the thinness of the SL world?
Calvino Rabeni: Our mind/body is evolved to fill space, move constantly, touch, respond, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: So it's extremely restrictive to be in SL
Calvino Rabeni: And you don't have the sound of other humans voices
Tarmel Udimo: yes exactly thats why people get so emotional
Calvino Rabeni: (unless perhaps by voice, which we don't use here)
Tarmel Udimo: there is nothing to anchor them at all
Calvino Rabeni: Nothing to be part of to participate to ground them
Calvino Rabeni: except little images and words
Calvino Rabeni: too much language
Calvino Rabeni: The human voice is expression of the soul, the eyes are a window to the soul
Calvino Rabeni: missing here
Tarmel Udimo: yes I find it most frustrating sometimes, which is way tarmel tends to be very staright ahead
Calvino Rabeni: Even more, everything we think we know about another being here
Tarmel Udimo: as possible, :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Calvino Rabeni: is a projection of our idea from their language use
Tarmel Udimo: true
Calvino Rabeni: And people get scared, when they have to totally trust their own interpretation
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Calvino Rabeni: It's like a dog, gets scared left alone, because they are pack animals
Calvino Rabeni: No one should have one dog and leave it alone at home
Calvino Rabeni: It makes them crazy
Tarmel Udimo: well not quite the right analogy but....:)
Calvino Rabeni: But suggestive I hope
Tarmel Udimo: yes;)
Calvino Rabeni: The straight-aheadness may be due to frustration
Calvino Rabeni: Or due to you knowing that the subtleties will not work
Tarmel Udimo: good point
Calvino Rabeni: And being emotional involves a whole cycle of experience, which SL does not completely support
Calvino Rabeni: so naturally people may get "stuck" at one aspect of it
Calvino Rabeni: If you look at the specific quality of the emotionality it probably gives a clue
Calvino Rabeni: Emotion is a cycle of connection with people
Calvino Rabeni: If your body wants to do that, and it can't, then the process will be frustrated
Tarmel Udimo: humm, yes... still curious about :Calvino Rabeni: I have arranged to handle the negative effects as well as I can
Calvino Rabeni: Yes. I was hoping to get back to that.
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
Calvino Rabeni: If I did not have opportunities to counter SL's effects, I would refuse to use it
Calvino Rabeni: It wouldn't be worth the side effects
-- BELL --
Calvino Rabeni: I don't have a recipe, but I look for opportunites to do the things my body/mind wants to do that aren't possible in SL
Calvino Rabeni: So, ways of being in contact with humans for example
Calvino Rabeni: I spend lots of time with people who are willing to be present
Calvino Rabeni: willing for example to use their voices very expressively, to express emotions
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Calvino Rabeni: I can look into their eyes and get a sense of someone "really here"
Calvino Rabeni: We tell stories with our voices
Calvino Rabeni: Do movement things together
Calvino Rabeni: Doing creative movement is another important thing
Tarmel Udimo: yes I very much agree
Calvino Rabeni: Or just to get out in nature, walk around, see it in its complete depth
Tarmel Udimo: and you try to bring these ways of being into SL?
Calvino Rabeni: Watch the subtleties of the play of light on everything
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: you live in the country I beleive?
Calvino Rabeni: No not really, it doesn't support it. I do it in RL to make up for that it can't be done in SL
Tarmel Udimo: ahh OK
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But my environment is not highly urban
Tarmel Udimo: I would much rather use voice, if one didn't have post the log
Calvino Rabeni: FOr instance, "Calvino" cannot look into "Tarmel"'s eyes and see the human soul
Tarmel Udimo: that's nice to be connected to nature
Calvino Rabeni: There is a simulation there, but it is robotic
Tarmel Udimo: no, espacially since I keep replacing them with new ones:)
Calvino Rabeni: it doesn't truly express the mind of the human
Tarmel Udimo: that aspect is fun
Calvino Rabeni: The av's eyes are very nice, along with the glasses, but not a human reality
Tarmel Udimo: no only tarmel's :)
Calvino Rabeni: And so all I could see there are my projections - that is the lonely thing about SL - that it doesn't afford a true contact
Calvino Rabeni: Humans truly need the gaze of other humans
Tarmel Udimo: ad tks for the compliment:)
Calvino Rabeni: Very esthetic your're welcome
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Calvino Rabeni: It is uncanny to imagine that they are real
Tarmel Udimo: yes...
Calvino Rabeni: But humans don't actually fool themselves very deeply by the fantasy
Tarmel Udimo: well I always make a point of looking at the faces to whom I am talking and not just seeing tarmel from behind
Tarmel Udimo: some do i think
Tarmel Udimo: fool themselves
Calvino Rabeni: In spite of all the "you create your own reality" ideas, humans really need to see the Other, and see the Other gazing back at them, in order to feel "real"
Tarmel Udimo: true
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I do that maneuver in SL also
Calvino Rabeni: because it activates the natural responses that would be present in RL contacts with people
Tarmel Udimo: I guess most people do or perhaps they just look at themselvs:)))))))))))
Calvino Rabeni: I move the view around a lot
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Another thing about handling the negative effects, is, deep meditation
Tarmel Udimo: yes? have you been doing it for a while?
Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe I should say, from-surface-to-deep meditation
Calvino Rabeni: (to the log readers - Tarmel appears to have crashed or otherwise suddenly disappeared)
-- BELL --
Calvino Rabeni: WB
Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.
Tarmel Udimo: Hi there: crashed:0
Calvino Rabeni: Hit C-Q?
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino is basically a klutz compared to me-the-human
Tarmel Udimo: hahahaha
Calvino Rabeni: The calvino body is numb, stumbles around SL, can't pick things up nimbly, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: All movements pretty much are automatisms
Tarmel Udimo: my favourite coming up
Tarmel Udimo: love that
Calvino Rabeni: When your av-eyes are looking up, they are looking at your inventory list at the top of your screen
Calvino Rabeni: what is that gesture called?
Tarmel Udimo gave you ****Howlzzz****.
Tarmel Udimo: yes I am looking at an inventory or whatever... but looking yes
Tarmel Udimo: shift F6 makes it work
Tarmel Udimo: there you go
Tarmel Udimo: nice wolf call
Calvino Rabeni: heheh
Tarmel Udimo: hehe, too bad we can't change the call sound
Calvino Rabeni: Well, I think it is technically possible
Tarmel Udimo: yes you are right just don't know how
Calvino Rabeni: Something to look into
Tarmel Udimo: how that for being supple
Calvino Rabeni: Very impressive
Tarmel Udimo: opps tarmel's breaking out:)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Tarmel Udimo: well on that note, I gues I will head back to the real world!
Tarmel Udimo: nice talking to you Calvino:)
Calvino Rabeni: I must remember to unhook my cam from Tarmel
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I enjoyed - fun, thanks for the interesting talk
Tarmel Udimo: yes that happens to me sometimes... and then before you know it I'm up in the air following someone
Tarmel Udimo: what was that hand gesture? I missed it...:)
Calvino Rabeni: it is "/ pointme"
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Calvino Rabeni: Hey!
Tarmel Udimo: nice one'
Calvino Rabeni: Boo!
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Tarmel Udimo: nice
-- BELL --
Calvino Rabeni: yawn, is a good one
Tarmel Udimo: is that what she's doing?
Tarmel Udimo: its meant to be smoking:(
Calvino Rabeni: oh
Tarmel Udimo: opps missed that one
Tarmel Udimo: heheheh
Tarmel Udimo: what's it like standing?
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Calvino Rabeni: It would be fun to have a few more
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Calvino Rabeni: like - laughing head off
Calvino Rabeni: it would fall off
Calvino Rabeni: and head flipping over - "flip your lid"
Tarmel Udimo: yes that would be great..., you have me laughiing for real...
Calvino Rabeni: Steam out of ears
Calvino Rabeni: head just rotating around a few times
Tarmel Udimo: yeah
Tarmel Udimo: ok, one last one howl, ready on the count of three
Calvino Rabeni: or going up about 2 feet, then dropping back
Calvino Rabeni: OK what was the ****Howlllzzzzzzzz**** trigger again
Calvino Rabeni: ****Howlllzzzzzzzz****
Calvino Rabeni: Get lost!
Calvino Rabeni: Get lost!
Calvino Rabeni: ****Howlllzzzzzzzz****
Tarmel Udimo: sorry, I pressed the wrong one
Tarmel Udimo: looking deperately for the shift key
Calvino Rabeni: if you say the word, it woks
Tarmel Udimo: for the howl...:)
Calvino Rabeni: yes say "howl"
Tarmel Udimo: ****Howlllzzzzzzzz****
Tarmel Udimo: tks
Tarmel Udimo: night Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: good night :)