2010.01.22 19:00 - Complaining

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello genesis

    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Calvino

    genesis Zhangsun: Hows it going?


    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Things are good in my part of the universe, how about you?

    genesis Zhangsun: can't complain

    genesis Zhangsun: there has been a lot of rain but really again can't complain

    genesis Zhangsun: have you been working with the PaB explorations?

    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, good. I think you probably *could* complain! I managed it today, with a special effort, so I know it can be done :)

    genesis Zhangsun: you made an effort to complain, sounds like an interesting game to play :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a little like that! And I did it for a friend of mine.

    genesis Zhangsun: why is that?

    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, it helped him suffer a little less, to have the complainer role taken up by ME for a while.

    genesis Zhangsun: is he a chronic complainer?

    Calvino Rabeni: No. But a chronic sufferer.

    genesis Zhangsun: ah I see

    genesis Zhangsun: yes I suppose there are some good exceptions for complaining

    Calvino Rabeni: And probably *feels* like complaining, and holds it under control other times.

    genesis Zhangsun: what is your friend suffering from

    genesis Zhangsun: what type of ailment?

    Calvino Rabeni: Hard to say - fatigue, pain, weakness,indigestion, insominia, anxiety, as a start

    Calvino Rabeni: General disabilities

    genesis Zhangsun: wow quite a combination

    genesis Zhangsun: really general disability?

    genesis Zhangsun: do many people suffer from this combination

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure numbers, but I don't think it rare

    Calvino Rabeni: He takes care his mother, who is worse

    genesis Zhangsun: I have a friend who is suffering from something similar

    genesis Zhangsun: with combination of chronic headache

    genesis Zhangsun: many people tell her that it is "in her head"

    genesis Zhangsun: even doctors

    genesis Zhangsun: that must be quite painful for her

    genesis Zhangsun: though of course it is possible it is "in her head" but I don't think anyone really understands what that means

    Calvino Rabeni: These are recognized by health companies as a "syndrome" not a "disease"

    Calvino Rabeni: Which stops short of denial

    Calvino Rabeni: but it doesn't fit the narrow definitions about what medical practice can handle

    genesis Zhangsun: yes the pratice of medicine is certainly still quite stunted in the west

    Calvino Rabeni: People are very confused in the USA

    Calvino Rabeni: politics

    genesis Zhangsun: what do you think contributes to this confusion?

    Calvino Rabeni: politics


    Calvino Rabeni: and money

    genesis Zhangsun: is there an extra element in the states which makes people particularly confused?

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, capitalism and moneyed agendas control thinking and the media

    genesis Zhangsun: I think it is ignorance

    genesis Zhangsun: the level of education is really poor compared to other civilized nations

    Calvino Rabeni: so when they say "healthcare" they really mean "insurance industry"

    genesis Zhangsun: "civilized"

    Calvino Rabeni: I think the education is fine, it just doesn't do any good

    genesis Zhangsun: and the lack of education, critical thinking prevents people from questioning whether those two should be synonymous

    genesis Zhangsun: really? you think the education is fine?

    Calvino Rabeni: I've seen those plywood boxes before - do you know what they are?

    genesis Zhangsun: here in California- the richest state, one of the biggest economies, and our education system is 48th in the country

    genesis Zhangsun: hey Storm

    genesis Zhangsun: I think there is something wrong there

    Storm Nordwind: I'll go fix it - I see

    genesis Zhangsun: education is not a priority

    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, that is about values

    genesis Zhangsun: yes there is something missing in the values I would say

    Calvino Rabeni: And the agendas are set by people with education

    genesis Zhangsun: the values haven't been defined

    genesis Zhangsun: yes but not in the spirit of educating, rather manipulating with their education

    genesis Zhangsun: which again shows a lack of values

    genesis Zhangsun: anyway I could rant about the lack of values but maybe that won't help anyone

    genesis Zhangsun: and is probably pretty dull so maybe we should turn to experience

    Calvino Rabeni: Are you in the education field as a vocation?

    genesis Zhangsun: well sort of

    Calvino Rabeni: (listens)

    genesis Zhangsun: though I wasn't about to talk about my teaching experience

    genesis Zhangsun: rather the way we could "experience" the lack of values

    Calvino Rabeni: I have a PaB topic in mind, then.

    genesis Zhangsun: sure

    Calvino Rabeni: Name two times recently where something surprised you

    genesis Zhangsun: surprised me :)

    genesis Zhangsun: difficult to say...somehow things are less and less surprising to me

    genesis Zhangsun: don't get me wrong I can still get excited about things

    genesis Zhangsun: but not necessarily suprised

    genesis Zhangsun: I recently got offered a job that initially surprised me

    genesis Zhangsun: so perhaps I could call that my most recent surprise

    Calvino Rabeni: How about an immediate surprise - something small - is what I was aiming at

    Calvino Rabeni: a kind of sho-shin experience

    genesis Zhangsun: like being startled by someone you didn't expect to see there?

    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps, or something, that was just unexpected and you didn't "already" know what to make of it.


    Calvino Rabeni: Might have been something new - or a gap in perceptual world - or something that didn't conform to expectations - a crack in the cosmic egg - an exception to the "usual story"

    Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't have to have any great significance

    Calvino Rabeni: surprise at reality

    genesis Zhangsun: honestly I can say then that everything suprises me and nothing at the same time

    Calvino Rabeni: pretty much the same way all the time then?

    genesis Zhangsun: no there are some things which of course at first glance look "positive" or "negative"

    genesis Zhangsun: but I am working with seeing through my preference

    genesis Zhangsun: I am not trying to make this question more difficult then it is

    Calvino Rabeni: normally everything is filtered through "story" and concepts - occasionally some aspect of reality doesn't go along with that, and appears with different force]

    genesis Zhangsun: so if you want me to choose two instances I certainly can but I honestly live my life (unless I am extraordinarily stressed which of course happens)

    genesis Zhangsun: as a sort of constant surprise

    genesis Zhangsun: or a constant knowing

    genesis Zhangsun: hence surprises and no surprises at the same time

    genesis Zhangsun: but I do want to see where you are going with this so if you like I can choose a couple of instances where I felt "surprised" perhaps something more "extraordinary"

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, something not accounted for by the filter of habit, perhaps

    Calvino Rabeni: A mature mind creates a pretty stable filter

    Calvino Rabeni: This might vaguely be related to epoche, but I'm fishing for simple things where perception is unpatterned

    Calvino Rabeni: It's a kind of awareness exercise

    Calvino Rabeni: There's the fundamental illusion that everything is understood, in a "given" kind of way

    Calvino Rabeni: But "not knowing" on the level of immediate experience is what I'm considering

    genesis Zhangsun: when I was doing my meditation today I realized after sitting for 10 minutes that there were ants crawling all around me

    genesis Zhangsun: but initially I didn't see them

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    genesis Zhangsun: and then once I did see them I decided I would just let them be

    genesis Zhangsun: didn't seem appropriate in that moment to swat them away

    Calvino Rabeni: that seems like it might be an example

    Calvino Rabeni: I have been surprised in similar ways

    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps that was the moment they also decided to let you be ;)

    genesis Zhangsun: maybe :)

    genesis Zhangsun: I don't particularly like ants but in that moment it just felt sort of cozy

    Calvino Rabeni: One time during a meditation by a stream, I all of a sudden noticed many red crayfish walking around under the surface - they had been there all along

    Calvino Rabeni: but it surprised me

    genesis Zhangsun: there I was thinking I was alone and in fact I was surrounded :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, by other life forms

    genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed there is life everywhere

    Storm Nordwind: http://www.sleepbot.com/morgan/card/surround.html

    genesis Zhangsun: another time I was contemplating a rock for a mahamudra exploration

    genesis Zhangsun: and I realized that the rock was actually in the process of becoming a rock still


    Calvino Rabeni: thanks storm for the link... and the rock surprised also

    Calvino Rabeni: Today I was passing a place I've passed hundreds of times

    Calvino Rabeni: which hardly look at much anymore

    Calvino Rabeni: There was a flag pole, and hung on the flag pole, a small guitar

    Calvino Rabeni: which could be hoisted up and down for some signalling purpose I can only surmise

    Calvino Rabeni: but it surprised me - a significant and interesting detail leaping out of a static picture

    Calvino Rabeni: like the ants

    genesis Zhangsun: yes its a nice point Calvino

    genesis Zhangsun: I appreciate it

    genesis Zhangsun: I must be going now

    genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you both

    Calvino Rabeni: And I too - thanks for playing :)

    Storm Nordwind: You too

    genesis Zhangsun: good night

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye gen :)

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