2010.01.27 13:00 - Detachment and the Boat

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia.


    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Storm!
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Sharon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles at the seating arrangment
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how are you?
    Storm Nordwind: I'm well thank you. And you?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good! I volunteered to grab the log today, did you do so yet?
    Storm Nordwind: No I decided to leave it you! :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks :)
    Storm Nordwind: What topics are uppermost in your mind today?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, the same ones.... comparing dropping in a PaB sense , to that of detachment in a buddhist sense, still working out what that means
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but otherwise not really thinking of anything at all :)
    Storm Nordwind: hehe!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Storm Nordwind: But the comparison is interesting. Have you reached any conclusions about it?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Calvino
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Calvino
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no conclusions, just an evolving definition
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, SS and S
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or devolving, as the case is sometimes
    Storm Nordwind: To me they seem different, although I suspect one can facilitate the other
    SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more about how they feel different to you?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi all
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Zen
    Zen Arado: we've shrunk
    Zen Arado: somethings changed?
    Storm Nordwind: I think I could PaB dropping fairly thoroughly and yet still have attachment to many things.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes zen, guardians can change the circle layout
    Storm Nordwind: On the other hand, the dropping might help work towards detachment. What do you think?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: PaB dropping seems to me to be more of an intellectual process, in a way
    Calvino Rabeni: Intellectual process in what way Sophia?
    Zen Arado: what do you mean by 'dropping'?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: pab ive associated with identifying preconceived notions, prejudices etc...which is a long ongoing process, identifying what creates 'what I have"
    Storm Nordwind: The standard definition given by Pema: ""Drop what you have in order to see what you are". It's one of the very few pointers we give people.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: for me had to id what i presumable had, first
    Zen Arado: ok like 'letting go'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ID*, presumably*
    Storm Nordwind: Letting go, yes Zen, but not in some meanings of the phrase!
    Zen Arado: depends what you let of I guess
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and 'unhitching the wagon' so to speak of such identifications feels like detachment
    Storm Nordwind: It's like, Zen, dropping your baggage... what's left when you remove your personal history, your opinions, your identity, your persona?
    Calvino Rabeni: do you like the feeling of detachment?
    Zen Arado: not easy
    Storm Nordwind: That sounds like an oxymoron to me Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: really?
    Storm Nordwind: sure
    SophiaSharon Larnia: when i succeed, in dropping emotional baggage
    Calvino Rabeni: sure?
    Calvino Rabeni: I was asking Sophia
    Calvino Rabeni: who said "feels like detachment"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but that is a hard question to answer :)
    Calvino Rabeni: about what detachment feels like
    Zen Arado: more like disidentification I think
    Storm Nordwind: My experience is that when I am truly detached, I do not have a feeling of detachment or even of being detached. It is a liberating things that allows me to trult feel in a much greater sense
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im actually bringing this up because it feels sort of empty to be detached, and Im not sure thats healthy, or if Im escaping :)
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe as hard as saying what "soup" tastes like :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good
    Calvino Rabeni: not that it feels empty, but, it is a good question I mean :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Zen Arado: the thoughts are still there but they don't have so muc influence over you
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello QT
    Qt Core: hi all
    Storm Nordwind: Hi there Qt
    Zen Arado: Hi Qt
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is rereading Storms sentence, yes, this is key :)
    Calvino Rabeni: How does that feel Zen, for the thoughts not to have so much influence?
    Zen Arado: feels more peaceful for a start
    Calvino Rabeni: Then the thoughts were aggravating or something?
    Zen Arado: oh yes ' many of them were
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes of course, but aren't there peaceful thoughts when being peaceful?
    Zen Arado: usually about things not going the way I wanted them to
    Zen Arado: learning to accept things the way they are
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that a different kind of thoughts?
    Zen Arado: and not having angry thoughts about them when they don't
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza :)
    Zen Arado: it is more a coming back to myself as awareness
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza:)
    Qt Core: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon, Qt, Storm, Zen, and Calvino :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Elza
    Storm Nordwind: I don't think it is the thought that is peaceful or not. It is the way that one responds to them that is peaceful or not/
    Zen Arado: yes Storm exactly
    Zen Arado: just watching them
    Zen Arado: in a way
    Calvino Rabeni: Is there a preference - a belief that peaceful is "better"?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb please, I will be gone for a short bit
    Storm Nordwind: I find that happiness spontaneously arises from a peaceful mind. I would suspect that many would like that more than lack of happiness and would therefore think it 'better'!
    Zen Arado: good question Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: 'Better' might come after 'peaceful'? Like an add-on that takes something away... strangely.
    Zen Arado: I think you have to be content with not being hapy too
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes in the chat medium, I get a sense of questions like that as being abrupt and pointed - I don't mean them that way
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: Oh I wouldn't put up with that Zen! ;)
    Zen Arado: no - I am used to that :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It's just in RL the question would be smoothed with tone rhythm and eye contact
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Zen Arado: I used to go to philosophy forums for years
    Zen Arado: they used to tear each other's arguments apart
    Calvino Rabeni: Tough guy, eh ? :)
    Zen Arado: no - just happy debating argumensts
    Calvino Rabeni: Those are not my kind of place, I have avoided them.
    Zen Arado: but not keen on 'ad hominem' stuff
    Zen Arado: but I was studying philosophy and that was part of the course
    Zen Arado: I get tired of endless debates too
    Zen Arado: it can get like a game you try to win
    Zen Arado: instead of trying to ncover new truths
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders what happens at PaB retreats in the dialogues there
    Storm Nordwind: Only one way to find out for sure, Cal ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: I have little desire to win at games
    Zen Arado: me either
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, I could ask you or Eliza about it also...
    Eliza Madrigal would prob have spent more time in the philosophy forums if not for finding PaB :) Maybe one can think clearly/precisely and 'sharpen', without that ambition for the same of ambition, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: I imagine it a luxury
    Calvino Rabeni: Or would hope it to be so
    Calvino Rabeni: to have the extra communication channels present
    Zen Arado: in philosophy you can try arguing from both sides
    Storm Nordwind: Eliza may be more erudite than me. But I would find it hard to give you a real sense of them, Cal.
    Calvino Rabeni: (pardon the machine metaphor)
    Eliza Madrigal: it does seem to some extent, impossible to convey...
    Calvino Rabeni: A feeling, an emotional tone?
    Storm Nordwind: Feeling: trust, well placed
    Calvino Rabeni: calm? lively? fun? etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a sense of happy recognition
    Storm Nordwind: All those you mention vary Cal. They are the fleeting side
    Calvino Rabeni: like a reunion?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm...
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about the sometimes misunderstood word "detachment"
    Eliza Madrigal: Let me say this... My heart leapt up at certain points...
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: in a kind of validation that what we experience here with one another
    Eliza Madrigal: is authentic :)
    Storm Nordwind: There was much expression of warmth and caring
    Calvino Rabeni: sounds like perhaps a "giving"
    Calvino Rabeni: and a "sharing"
    Eliza Madrigal nods... and easily seeing beyond 'appearances' while still enjoying appearances enormously!
    Calvino Rabeni: This is like, painting a tone picture with emotion words
    Zen Arado: is there a leader? Pema?
    Eliza Madrigal: For the little retreat Sharon and I were on, yes Pema led things :)
    Storm Nordwind: You get together and you are not aware of people trying to fence with you. At least much less so. You can get straight to the reasons for being there.
    Calvino Rabeni: (tempted by "reasons")
    Storm Nordwind: That's why I planted it there ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, I pour water on the seed
    Calvino Rabeni: Now shining some warm sunlight on the ground containing the seed
    Storm Nordwind: It varies from person to person, doesn't it. There are group reasons of course, a communal reason to be there, but beyond that it varies per individual
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ohh so much to read thank you!
    Eliza Madrigal: I was a bit frightened to go... can be very shy in person, but it was fine. Shyness and all :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in nj Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I was a bit frightened also, that I might 'change' the way things are for me here in SL... mess it up. Hah
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you are just as eloquent in person as in text
    Eliza Madrigal: (Did you write that before my last line?) he he
    Storm Nordwind smiles at the lovely compliment to Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you though Sharon, and you are so funny/delightful
    SophiaSharon Larnia: mm, doesnt change anything :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We had a great time :)
    Eliza Madrigal would like to meet everyone now
    Calvino Rabeni: A person's reasons must be somewhat private - the soul part of oneself being a wild and shy creature
    Zen Arado: sounds a bit different from a zen retreat
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Zen Arado: don't think I will ba able to make it to any retreats
    Calvino Rabeni: Although I can say, doing things requires a confluence of many "reasons" together
    Zen Arado: unless they are very accessible
    Eliza Madrigal: True, Calvino
    Storm Nordwind: London area near enough for you Zen?
    Qt Core: i've found that in the days after a meeting with people i met online i'm quite less social than usual, like i have a limited supply of sociality ;-)
    Zen Arado: I made it to London last year
    Qt Core: (i had one of such meeting last saturday) ;-)
    Zen Arado: but the venue itself need s accessibility
    Storm Nordwind: You could volunteer to organize one yourself ;)
    Zen Arado: I am going to one this weekend
    Eliza Madrigal: Qt, what is funny, is that sometimes one can be in company that gives 'more' space, in a way....
    Zen Arado: but it is in a retreat centre near me
    Eliza Madrigal: so it isn't quite the same as feeling as though you've 'worked' to be social, which can be draining.
    Eliza Madrigal: A zen retreat, Zen? formal?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: silent
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Qt Core: is not a drain, during the meeting i had no problems, i just "satisfied" my sociality need for some days
    Zen Arado: I feel really peaceful after them
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It can be like that for introverts, it is natural
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see Qt... like me not eating when I came home... was so strange
    Zen Arado: in zen retreats you get away from having to be sociable
    Zen Arado: you have to face yourself without distractions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i understand what you mean QT, pab is like that for me, in a much smaller sense
    Eliza Madrigal: Isen has given a few talks recently, on his very formal sesshin... quite interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen comes from a cultural background that values austerity
    Zen Arado: and simplicity
    Calvino Rabeni: It might change, imported into different cultures
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought Tibetan buddhists were the heaviest chanters, but he describes chanting with everything, which was a surprise :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And remain Zen
    Zen Arado: we do chanting
    Storm Nordwind: Has it changed much in the last century since being imported, do you know Zen?
    Zen Arado: I do chant leader sometimes
    Zen Arado: I read an article about a Japanese monastery lately
    Zen Arado: and the regimes was very tough
    Zen Arado: much tougher than in the West
    Calvino Rabeni: One practice uses a bell along with the chanting
    Zen Arado: we use bells and a mokugyo
    Zen Arado: little drum
    Calvino Rabeni: the bell - is it cylindrical with a handle, rung with one hand?
    Zen Arado: no ust a singing bowl type
    Zen Arado: usually 2 of them
    Calvino Rabeni: There's another kind, hand held, and ringing it is like trying to pierce a stone
    Calvino Rabeni: in terms of the concentration and feeling involved
    Zen Arado: they have services 3 times per day and everything is performed very precisely
    Calvino Rabeni: There's still a samurai feeling to japanese zen
    Zen Arado: bowing and prostrations too
    Calvino Rabeni: a feudalism
    Zen Arado: well..samirai used zen
    Zen Arado: developed concentration I think
    Calvino Rabeni: almost the feeling you might need to commit seppuku
    Calvino Rabeni: it's a cultural background I believe
    Calvino Rabeni: then people from other cultures think "so this is zen?"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) Eliza
    Zen Arado: but I just do it without worrying about all that
    Calvino Rabeni: Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Its a nice little setting... asks for a picture
    SophiaSharon Larnia: she took a picture
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the way zen has sort of permeated a variety of arts in Japan, and vice versa
    Calvino Rabeni: And also the influences of Shinto
    Zen Arado: I try to do 'shikantaza'
    Calvino Rabeni: What does that word mean, Zen?
    Zen Arado: "It is important to understand from the very outset of beginning practice that Shikantaza ("Just Sitting") Zazen is a radical, to-the-marrow, dropping of all need to attain, all "running after." And we work very very diligently to attain this "non-attaining!" Last time, I compared it to a foot race in which we keep on pushing forward for our whole lives, but knowing that each step-by-step of the race itself is perfectly "just running." No destination to "get to"... the trip itself is the destination."
    Zen Arado: it's a kind of open awareness
    Calvino Rabeni: I see, thanks
    Zen Arado: the 'not trying to attain anything is very important
    Zen Arado: other wise it is a kind of spiritual greed
    Calvino Rabeni: it sounds like that would be compatible with virtually any activity
    Eliza Madrigal: Open awareness... hm... love that phrasing....
    Eliza Madrigal: can't help but think (full circle from my entrance to the conversation) [13:31] Storm Nordwind: I find that happiness spontaneously arises from a peaceful mind.
    Zen Arado: other traditions use concentrative practices
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Last night Bolo and I had this topic - you'll find it in the log at some point
    Zen Arado: it what we have naturally when we can escape from the way our egoic mind clouds it , I think anyway
    Eliza Madrigal: My meditation practice is many things... like to try things on :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: That is reference to storm's statement about arising
    Eliza Madrigal: I do try to 'just sit' at some point every day though
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Zon
    Eliza Madrigal waves to Zon
    Zen Arado: shikantaza is pretty similar to vipassana meditation I think
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon :)
    Zen Arado: on second thoughts maybe not
    SophiaSharon Larnia: another reason why sl is good, i get to learn about these things, when otherwise it may have taken longer for me to be exposed to them
    Zon Quar: heya
    Eliza Madrigal looks forward to reading that log, Cal :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh very true Sharon
    Calvino Rabeni: the practices have been called, a boat to cross a river
    Calvino Rabeni: One may cross different rivers during the journey using different boats
    Zen Arado: yes - you have to leave them behind at some point
    Calvino Rabeni: Question - what river am I crossing now?
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, the metaphor says, leave them
    Zen Arado: the one designed for you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Can we leave the boat behind to start with?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind needs to slip away and quietly does so with a cheery wave to all
    Zon Quar: and we shouldt start worshipping the boat
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Storm!
    Zen Arado: bye Storm
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Storm :)
    Zon Quar: after it has done its job
    Qt Core: bye storm
    Eliza Madrigal: that's just a playful comment... I like boats :)
    Qt Core: time to go for me too, bye all
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt :)
    Zen Arado: bye Qt
    Zon Quar: yes they r useful
    Calvino Rabeni: Another question (for reflection) - where are you on your "journey"?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Qt :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye QT
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i fell off the boat
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: splash
    Zon Quar: i am rowing
    Zen Arado: Eliza is right - we are always at the other shore
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe you are at the end of a journey of becoming a mermaid
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Calvino Rabeni: Boats - who needs them :)
    Zen Arado: but wwe think we need a boat
    Zon Quar: it is comfortable and useful
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, great fun
    Zon Quar: like clothes we wear
    Zen Arado: we get so attached to our boats
    Eliza Madrigal: We can appreciate the boats.. take them lightly... let the breezes blow them around :)
    Zon Quar: and enjoy the scenery passing by..
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... and the company we enjoy it with
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it is a difficult analogy, because the fact is, we are presently physical beings, and are traveling in the 'boat', or am i misunderstanding
    Zon Quar: indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe.. well I think as the conversation has gone, we might be wearing the boats...
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you have any ritual or "power" objects? These are like "little boats" or maybe "oars"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Zen Arado: maybe we are afraid of reaching the other shore
    Zon Quar: is there another shore
    Zen Arado: we prefer the comfort and security of our boat
    Zen Arado: we think there is
    Zon Quar: and how is it different from yhe one we left
    Zen Arado: or we like to :
    Zon Quar: or is there just a journey
    Zen Arado: a journey to nowhere
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the boat being a set of ideas, things that we take to be 'what we are'
    Zen Arado: or always seeking
    Zon Quar: journey to now here
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Zen Arado: we love the search
    Zon Quar: yes
    Zen Arado: yes Zon :)
    Zon Quar: we r the search
    Eliza Madrigal: To answer your question Cal, there are various objects and symbols to my practice, but wouldn't pretend to understand well enough to talk much about that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Words are boats, too
    Calvino Rabeni: People make their own physical symbols and icons
    Calvino Rabeni: altars or whatever
    Eliza Madrigal nods... very true
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is thinking over the question Calvino
    Zen Arado: like supports we eventually don't need
    Eliza Madrigal: Eden and Storm and I were talking about a visual symbol for pab pauses....
    Eliza Madrigal: so she might have a reminder in India...
    Calvino Rabeni: One can always have "reminders" without "needing" them
    Calvino Rabeni: I like living in cultures that have a lot of spiritual art in the environment
    Eliza Madrigal: yes that's when they are enjoyable perhaps, when one doesn't feel needy?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Zen Arado: yes seems true
    Zon Quar: now i take this body of mine and put it on bed, nite all
    Eliza Madrigal: I used to find heavily religious environments oppressive... funny how things turn that I find most of them nurturing now... maybe because don't feel 'trapped' there....
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Zon, good to see you :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: night Zon :)
    Zen Arado: nite Zon
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, GTG - RL phone session. Thanks for the lovely chat all
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Calvino :)
    Zen Arado: yes I better go too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Calvino
    Zen Arado: bye Cal :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sharon, have you met the cat?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too...but I know what youre talking about Eliza
    Zen Arado: bye
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no! but i heard about it in the emails
    Eliza Madrigal: I want to go pet her...
    Eliza Madrigal: have another second? hah
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is it the cat Arabella has on her plot?
    Eliza Madrigal: Nooo... in the pub!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ill go too lol
    Eliza Madrigal: I think Ara named her cat already....
    Eliza Madrigal smiles, great...
    Eliza Madrigal: time to fly :)
    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags

    Files 1

    FileSizeDateAttached by 
    No description
    631.57 kB21:00, 9 Apr 2010elizaActions
    Viewing 2 of 2 comments: view all
    Originally written on 01:16, 28 Jan 2010
    Just replacing the ?????????????????????? with " and ... ")
    Posted 14:00, 9 Apr 2010
    Originally written on 23:08, 30 Jan 2010
    Thank you both!
    Posted 14:00, 9 Apr 2010
    Viewing 2 of 2 comments: view all
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core