2010.01.27 13:00 - Detachment and the Boat

The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia.

SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Storm!
Storm Nordwind: Hi Sharon :)
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles at the seating arrangment
SophiaSharon Larnia: how are you?
Storm Nordwind: I'm well thank you. And you?
SophiaSharon Larnia: good! I volunteered to grab the log today, did you do so yet?
Storm Nordwind: No I decided to leave it you! :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks :)
Storm Nordwind: What topics are uppermost in your mind today?
SophiaSharon Larnia: well, the same ones.... comparing dropping in a PaB sense , to that of detachment in a buddhist sense, still working out what that means
SophiaSharon Larnia: but otherwise not really thinking of anything at all :)
Storm Nordwind: hehe!
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
Storm Nordwind: But the comparison is interesting. Have you reached any conclusions about it?
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Calvino
Storm Nordwind: Hello Calvino
SophiaSharon Larnia: no conclusions, just an evolving definition
Calvino Rabeni: Hello, SS and S
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: or devolving, as the case is sometimes
Storm Nordwind: To me they seem different, although I suspect one can facilitate the other
SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more about how they feel different to you?
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Storm Nordwind: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: we've shrunk
Zen Arado: somethings changed?
Storm Nordwind: I think I could PaB dropping fairly thoroughly and yet still have attachment to many things.
Calvino Rabeni: yes zen, guardians can change the circle layout
Storm Nordwind: On the other hand, the dropping might help work towards detachment. What do you think?
SophiaSharon Larnia: PaB dropping seems to me to be more of an intellectual process, in a way
Calvino Rabeni: Intellectual process in what way Sophia?
Zen Arado: what do you mean by 'dropping'?
SophiaSharon Larnia: pab ive associated with identifying preconceived notions, prejudices etc...which is a long ongoing process, identifying what creates 'what I have"

Storm Nordwind: The standard definition given by Pema: ""Drop what you have in order to see what you are". It's one of the very few pointers we give people.
SophiaSharon Larnia: for me had to id what i presumable had, first
Zen Arado: ok like 'letting go'
SophiaSharon Larnia: ID*, presumably*
Storm Nordwind: Letting go, yes Zen, but not in some meanings of the phrase!
Zen Arado: depends what you let of I guess
SophiaSharon Larnia: and 'unhitching the wagon' so to speak of such identifications feels like detachment
Storm Nordwind: It's like, Zen, dropping your baggage... what's left when you remove your personal history, your opinions, your identity, your persona?
Calvino Rabeni: do you like the feeling of detachment?
Zen Arado: not easy
Storm Nordwind: That sounds like an oxymoron to me Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: really?
Storm Nordwind: sure
SophiaSharon Larnia: when i succeed, in dropping emotional baggage
Calvino Rabeni: sure?
Calvino Rabeni: I was asking Sophia
Calvino Rabeni: who said "feels like detachment"
SophiaSharon Larnia: but that is a hard question to answer :)
Calvino Rabeni: about what detachment feels like
Zen Arado: more like disidentification I think
Storm Nordwind: My experience is that when I am truly detached, I do not have a feeling of detachment or even of being detached. It is a liberating things that allows me to trult feel in a much greater sense
SophiaSharon Larnia: im actually bringing this up because it feels sort of empty to be detached, and Im not sure thats healthy, or if Im escaping :)
Calvino Rabeni: maybe as hard as saying what "soup" tastes like :)
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good
Calvino Rabeni: not that it feels empty, but, it is a good question I mean :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Zen Arado: the thoughts are still there but they don't have so muc influence over you
Calvino Rabeni: Hello QT
Qt Core: hi all
Storm Nordwind: Hi there Qt
Zen Arado: Hi Qt
SophiaSharon Larnia: is rereading Storms sentence, yes, this is key :)
Calvino Rabeni: How does that feel Zen, for the thoughts not to have so much influence?
Zen Arado: feels more peaceful for a start
Calvino Rabeni: Then the thoughts were aggravating or something?
Zen Arado: oh yes ' many of them were
Calvino Rabeni: Yes of course, but aren't there peaceful thoughts when being peaceful?
Zen Arado: usually about things not going the way I wanted them to
Zen Arado: learning to accept things the way they are
Calvino Rabeni: Is that a different kind of thoughts?
Zen Arado: and not having angry thoughts about them when they don't
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza :)
Zen Arado: it is more a coming back to myself as awareness
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza:)
Qt Core: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon, Qt, Storm, Zen, and Calvino :)
Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Elza
Storm Nordwind: I don't think it is the thought that is peaceful or not. It is the way that one responds to them that is peaceful or not/
Zen Arado: yes Storm exactly
Zen Arado: just watching them
Zen Arado: in a way
Calvino Rabeni: Is there a preference - a belief that peaceful is "better"?
SophiaSharon Larnia: brb please, I will be gone for a short bit

Storm Nordwind: I find that happiness spontaneously arises from a peaceful mind. I would suspect that many would like that more than lack of happiness and would therefore think it 'better'!
Zen Arado: good question Cal
Eliza Madrigal: 'Better' might come after 'peaceful'? Like an add-on that takes something away... strangely.
Zen Arado: I think you have to be content with not being hapy too
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes in the chat medium, I get a sense of questions like that as being abrupt and pointed - I don't mean them that way
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind: Oh I wouldn't put up with that Zen! ;)
Zen Arado: no - I am used to that :)
Calvino Rabeni: It's just in RL the question would be smoothed with tone rhythm and eye contact
Calvino Rabeni: OK
Zen Arado: I used to go to philosophy forums for years
Zen Arado: they used to tear each other's arguments apart
Calvino Rabeni: Tough guy, eh ? :)
Zen Arado: no - just happy debating argumensts
Calvino Rabeni: Those are not my kind of place, I have avoided them.
Zen Arado: but not keen on 'ad hominem' stuff
Zen Arado: but I was studying philosophy and that was part of the course
Zen Arado: I get tired of endless debates too
Zen Arado: it can get like a game you try to win
Zen Arado: instead of trying to ncover new truths
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders what happens at PaB retreats in the dialogues there
Storm Nordwind: Only one way to find out for sure, Cal ;)
Calvino Rabeni: I have little desire to win at games
Zen Arado: me either
Calvino Rabeni: Well, I could ask you or Eliza about it also...
Eliza Madrigal would prob have spent more time in the philosophy forums if not for finding PaB :) Maybe one can think clearly/precisely and 'sharpen', without that ambition for the same of ambition, etc
Calvino Rabeni: I imagine it a luxury
Calvino Rabeni: Or would hope it to be so
Calvino Rabeni: to have the extra communication channels present
Zen Arado: in philosophy you can try arguing from both sides
Storm Nordwind: Eliza may be more erudite than me. But I would find it hard to give you a real sense of them, Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: (pardon the machine metaphor)
Eliza Madrigal: it does seem to some extent, impossible to convey...
Calvino Rabeni: A feeling, an emotional tone?
Storm Nordwind: Feeling: trust, well placed
Calvino Rabeni: calm? lively? fun? etc.
Eliza Madrigal: there is a sense of happy recognition
Storm Nordwind: All those you mention vary Cal. They are the fleeting side
Calvino Rabeni: like a reunion?
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm...
Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about the sometimes misunderstood word "detachment"
Eliza Madrigal: Let me say this... My heart leapt up at certain points...
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: in a kind of validation that what we experience here with one another
Eliza Madrigal: is authentic :)
Storm Nordwind: There was much expression of warmth and caring
Calvino Rabeni: sounds like perhaps a "giving"
Calvino Rabeni: and a "sharing"
Eliza Madrigal nods... and easily seeing beyond 'appearances' while still enjoying appearances enormously!
Calvino Rabeni: This is like, painting a tone picture with emotion words
Zen Arado: is there a leader? Pema?
Eliza Madrigal: For the little retreat Sharon and I were on, yes Pema led things :)
Storm Nordwind: You get together and you are not aware of people trying to fence with you. At least much less so. You can get straight to the reasons for being there.
Calvino Rabeni: (tempted by "reasons")
Storm Nordwind: That's why I planted it there ;)
Calvino Rabeni: Ok, I pour water on the seed
Calvino Rabeni: Now shining some warm sunlight on the ground containing the seed
Storm Nordwind: It varies from person to person, doesn't it. There are group reasons of course, a communal reason to be there, but beyond that it varies per individual
SophiaSharon Larnia: ohh so much to read thank you!
Eliza Madrigal: I was a bit frightened to go... can be very shy in person, but it was fine. Shyness and all :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: in nj Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: I was a bit frightened also, that I might 'change' the way things are for me here in SL... mess it up. Hah
SophiaSharon Larnia: you are just as eloquent in person as in text
Eliza Madrigal: (Did you write that before my last line?) he he
Storm Nordwind smiles at the lovely compliment to Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you though Sharon, and you are so funny/delightful
SophiaSharon Larnia: mm, doesnt change anything :)
Eliza Madrigal: We had a great time :)

Eliza Madrigal would like to meet everyone now
Calvino Rabeni: A person's reasons must be somewhat private - the soul part of oneself being a wild and shy creature
Zen Arado: sounds a bit different from a zen retreat
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Zen Arado: don't think I will ba able to make it to any retreats
Calvino Rabeni: Although I can say, doing things requires a confluence of many "reasons" together
Zen Arado: unless they are very accessible
Eliza Madrigal: True, Calvino
Storm Nordwind: London area near enough for you Zen?
Qt Core: i've found that in the days after a meeting with people i met online i'm quite less social than usual, like i have a limited supply of sociality ;-)
Zen Arado: I made it to London last year
Qt Core: (i had one of such meeting last saturday) ;-)
Zen Arado: but the venue itself need s accessibility
Storm Nordwind: You could volunteer to organize one yourself ;)
Zen Arado: I am going to one this weekend
Eliza Madrigal: Qt, what is funny, is that sometimes one can be in company that gives 'more' space, in a way....
Zen Arado: but it is in a retreat centre near me
Eliza Madrigal: so it isn't quite the same as feeling as though you've 'worked' to be social, which can be draining.
Eliza Madrigal: A zen retreat, Zen? formal?
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: silent
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Qt Core: is not a drain, during the meeting i had no problems, i just "satisfied" my sociality need for some days
Zen Arado: I feel really peaceful after them
Eliza Madrigal: Nice :)
Calvino Rabeni: It can be like that for introverts, it is natural
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see Qt... like me not eating when I came home... was so strange
Zen Arado: in zen retreats you get away from having to be sociable
Zen Arado: you have to face yourself without distractions
SophiaSharon Larnia: i understand what you mean QT, pab is like that for me, in a much smaller sense
Eliza Madrigal: Isen has given a few talks recently, on his very formal sesshin... quite interesting
Calvino Rabeni: Zen comes from a cultural background that values austerity
Zen Arado: and simplicity
Calvino Rabeni: It might change, imported into different cultures
Eliza Madrigal: I thought Tibetan buddhists were the heaviest chanters, but he describes chanting with everything, which was a surprise :)
Calvino Rabeni: And remain Zen
Zen Arado: we do chanting
Storm Nordwind: Has it changed much in the last century since being imported, do you know Zen?
Zen Arado: I do chant leader sometimes
Zen Arado: I read an article about a Japanese monastery lately
Zen Arado: and the regimes was very tough
Zen Arado: much tougher than in the West
Calvino Rabeni: One practice uses a bell along with the chanting
Zen Arado: we use bells and a mokugyo
Zen Arado: little drum
Calvino Rabeni: the bell - is it cylindrical with a handle, rung with one hand?
Zen Arado: no ust a singing bowl type
Zen Arado: usually 2 of them
Calvino Rabeni: There's another kind, hand held, and ringing it is like trying to pierce a stone
Calvino Rabeni: in terms of the concentration and feeling involved
Zen Arado: they have services 3 times per day and everything is performed very precisely
Calvino Rabeni: There's still a samurai feeling to japanese zen
Zen Arado: bowing and prostrations too
Calvino Rabeni: a feudalism
Zen Arado: well..samirai used zen
Zen Arado: developed concentration I think
Calvino Rabeni: almost the feeling you might need to commit seppuku
Calvino Rabeni: it's a cultural background I believe
Calvino Rabeni: then people from other cultures think "so this is zen?"
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) Eliza
Zen Arado: but I just do it without worrying about all that
Calvino Rabeni: Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Its a nice little setting... asks for a picture

SophiaSharon Larnia: she took a picture
Calvino Rabeni: I like the way zen has sort of permeated a variety of arts in Japan, and vice versa
Calvino Rabeni: And also the influences of Shinto
Zen Arado: I try to do 'shikantaza'
Calvino Rabeni: What does that word mean, Zen?
Zen Arado: "It is important to understand from the very outset of beginning practice that Shikantaza ("Just Sitting") Zazen is a radical, to-the-marrow, dropping of all need to attain, all "running after." And we work very very diligently to attain this "non-attaining!" Last time, I compared it to a foot race in which we keep on pushing forward for our whole lives, but knowing that each step-by-step of the race itself is perfectly "just running." No destination to "get to"... the trip itself is the destination."
Zen Arado: it's a kind of open awareness
Calvino Rabeni: I see, thanks
Zen Arado: the 'not trying to attain anything is very important
Zen Arado: other wise it is a kind of spiritual greed
Calvino Rabeni: it sounds like that would be compatible with virtually any activity
Eliza Madrigal: Open awareness... hm... love that phrasing....
Eliza Madrigal: can't help but think (full circle from my entrance to the conversation) [13:31] Storm Nordwind: I find that happiness spontaneously arises from a peaceful mind.
Zen Arado: other traditions use concentrative practices
Zen Arado: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Last night Bolo and I had this topic - you'll find it in the log at some point
Zen Arado: it what we have naturally when we can escape from the way our egoic mind clouds it , I think anyway
Eliza Madrigal: My meditation practice is many things... like to try things on :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Calvino Rabeni: That is reference to storm's statement about arising
Eliza Madrigal: I do try to 'just sit' at some point every day though
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Zon
Eliza Madrigal waves to Zon
Zen Arado: shikantaza is pretty similar to vipassana meditation I think
Zen Arado: Hi Zon :)
Zen Arado: on second thoughts maybe not
SophiaSharon Larnia: another reason why sl is good, i get to learn about these things, when otherwise it may have taken longer for me to be exposed to them
Zon Quar: heya
Eliza Madrigal looks forward to reading that log, Cal :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh very true Sharon
Calvino Rabeni: the practices have been called, a boat to cross a river
Calvino Rabeni: One may cross different rivers during the journey using different boats
Zen Arado: yes - you have to leave them behind at some point
Calvino Rabeni: Question - what river am I crossing now?
Calvino Rabeni: Right, the metaphor says, leave them
Zen Arado: the one designed for you :)
Eliza Madrigal: Can we leave the boat behind to start with?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Storm Nordwind needs to slip away and quietly does so with a cheery wave to all
Zon Quar: and we shouldt start worshipping the boat
Calvino Rabeni: Bye
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Storm!
Zen Arado: bye Storm
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Storm :)
Zon Quar: after it has done its job
Qt Core: bye storm
Eliza Madrigal: that's just a playful comment... I like boats :)
Qt Core: time to go for me too, bye all
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt :)
Zen Arado: bye Qt
Zon Quar: yes they r useful
Calvino Rabeni: Another question (for reflection) - where are you on your "journey"?
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Qt :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye QT
SophiaSharon Larnia: i fell off the boat
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
SophiaSharon Larnia: splash
Zon Quar: i am rowing
Zen Arado: Eliza is right - we are always at the other shore
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe you are at the end of a journey of becoming a mermaid
SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
Calvino Rabeni: Boats - who needs them :)
Zen Arado: but wwe think we need a boat
Zon Quar: it is comfortable and useful
Eliza Madrigal: yes, great fun
Zon Quar: like clothes we wear
Zen Arado: we get so attached to our boats
Eliza Madrigal: We can appreciate the boats.. take them lightly... let the breezes blow them around :)

Zon Quar: and enjoy the scenery passing by..
Eliza Madrigal smiles... and the company we enjoy it with
SophiaSharon Larnia: it is a difficult analogy, because the fact is, we are presently physical beings, and are traveling in the 'boat', or am i misunderstanding
Zon Quar: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: hehe.. well I think as the conversation has gone, we might be wearing the boats...
Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
Calvino Rabeni: Do you have any ritual or "power" objects? These are like "little boats" or maybe "oars"
SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
Zen Arado: maybe we are afraid of reaching the other shore
Zon Quar: is there another shore
Zen Arado: we prefer the comfort and security of our boat
Zen Arado: we think there is
Zon Quar: and how is it different from yhe one we left
Zen Arado: or we like to :
Zon Quar: or is there just a journey
Zen Arado: a journey to nowhere
SophiaSharon Larnia: the boat being a set of ideas, things that we take to be 'what we are'
Zen Arado: or always seeking
Zon Quar: journey to now here
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Zen Arado: we love the search
Zon Quar: yes
Zen Arado: yes Zon :)
Zon Quar: we r the search
Eliza Madrigal: To answer your question Cal, there are various objects and symbols to my practice, but wouldn't pretend to understand well enough to talk much about that :)
Eliza Madrigal: Words are boats, too
Calvino Rabeni: People make their own physical symbols and icons
Calvino Rabeni: altars or whatever
Eliza Madrigal nods... very true
SophiaSharon Larnia: is thinking over the question Calvino
Zen Arado: like supports we eventually don't need
Eliza Madrigal: Eden and Storm and I were talking about a visual symbol for pab pauses....
Eliza Madrigal: so she might have a reminder in India...
Calvino Rabeni: One can always have "reminders" without "needing" them
Calvino Rabeni: I like living in cultures that have a lot of spiritual art in the environment
Eliza Madrigal: yes that's when they are enjoyable perhaps, when one doesn't feel needy?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Zen Arado: yes seems true
Zon Quar: now i take this body of mine and put it on bed, nite all
Eliza Madrigal: I used to find heavily religious environments oppressive... funny how things turn that I find most of them nurturing now... maybe because don't feel 'trapped' there....
Eliza Madrigal: Night Zon, good to see you :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: night Zon :)
Zen Arado: nite Zon
Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, GTG - RL phone session. Thanks for the lovely chat all
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Calvino :)
Zen Arado: yes I better go too
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Calvino
Zen Arado: bye Cal :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen too :)
Eliza Madrigal: Sharon, have you met the cat?
SophiaSharon Larnia: me too...but I know what youre talking about Eliza
Zen Arado: bye
SophiaSharon Larnia: no! but i heard about it in the emails
Eliza Madrigal: I want to go pet her...
Eliza Madrigal: have another second? hah
SophiaSharon Larnia: is it the cat Arabella has on her plot?
Eliza Madrigal: Nooo... in the pub!
SophiaSharon Larnia: ok :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: ill go too lol
Eliza Madrigal: I think Ara named her cat already....
Eliza Madrigal smiles, great...
Eliza Madrigal: time to fly :)