2010.02.04 01:00 - Communication and Lojong Study

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Calvino and I had a discussion about various Buddhist-related topics.

We started by talking about koan study.

    Zen Arado: Hi Cal:)
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm well - once I get rezzed :) And you?
    Zen Arado: I'm well too
    Zen Arado: I was just studying a koan in the book of equanimity
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the koan?
    Zen Arado: I have been through the book but have gone back to the start
    Zen Arado: so I am looking at the first one
    Zen Arado: "One day, the World-Honored One ascended to the rostrum. Manjusri struck the table with the gavel and said, "Contemplate clearly the Dharma of the Dharma-King! The Dharma of the Dharma-King is like this." Thereupon, the World-Honored One descended"
    Zen Arado: I have a very good commentary by Gerry Shishin Wick
    Zen Arado: but I am trying to write something about each case
    Zen Arado: makes you think more
    Zen Arado: though that is maybe not the way to 'get' koans
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the way to "get" them?
    Zen Arado: sometimes they say 'penetrate'
    Zen Arado: you can meditate on them is one way
    Zen Arado: but just holding them in your mind and thinking about them for a time is all that is needed I guess

I introduced the topic of a retreat I attended last weekend. Most of the discussion centred around a communication activity we performed at the retreat that Cal had also experienced somewhere else. The discussion gave me more insight into the meaning of the activity.

 Zen Arado: I was at a little retreat last weekend
    Calvino Rabeni: What would you like to say about it?
    Zen Arado: but maybe you have heard enough about retreats ?:)
    Zen Arado: the retreat?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK then speak as if you had the perfect listener
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zen Arado: it was quite low key because it was a first one for this group
    Zen Arado: so we wrer allowed to talk and there were exercises in communication and sharing etc
    Zen Arado: I wrote a short piece in my blog if you want to see a photo?
    Calvino Rabeni: What is a communication exercise consist of?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, please
    Zen Arado: ah...you sit opposite someone and take turns becoming aware of them
    Calvino Rabeni: is there more ?
    Zen Arado: funny thing is I had done this exercise in SL one time facing another avatar at the Skeptical Buddhists group
    Zen Arado: well...you report to the group how you felt about the process
    Calvino Rabeni: But nothing more specific about "communication"
    Zen Arado: hmmm...no it is about how you feel about not speaking and kind of feeling another persons presence
    Zen Arado: I felt more uncomfortabpe about invading someone elses privacy that having them look at me
    Calvino Rabeni: something to be aware of and then report
    Zen Arado: four of the women were asked to share how they came to Buddhism
    Calvino Rabeni: When I did such things, I wanted to "see" them without - at first- being seen that I was seeing them
    Zen Arado: yes I guess - I'm not sure what you are suppose to get from the exercise Cal
    Zen Arado: http://johnhtaylor.wordpress.com/
    Zen Arado: one or two of the group burst out laughing - couldn't stop
    Calvino Rabeni: it happens :)
    Zen Arado: perhaps to relieve their tension
    Calvino Rabeni: they were letting go of a light fear
    Zen Arado: I am now wondering why it felt so uncomfortable
    Calvino Rabeni: When I did that exercise, part of the idea was, if I am aware of you being aware of me being aware of you, we are then communicating
    Calvino Rabeni: Why you felt uncomfortable?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Can't remember it?
    Zen Arado: kind of like an idea of wanting to keep separate
    Zen Arado: it is easy with someone you are close to already
    Calvino Rabeni: My experience is, it is a deep experience, and can be complex
    Zen Arado: especially someone you are in a relationship with
    Calvino Rabeni: I can remember various things to be uncomfortable about
    Zen Arado: yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: judgments, for example - like first impressions of someone I don't know
    Zen Arado: yes - I don't know the members of this group very well
    Zen Arado: when the women shared I got quite a shock
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, they might have a sour expression or a worried one, and I'd imagine they aren't easy to relate
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe there's an attraction, I find some chemistry there, but don't know them
    Calvino Rabeni: and don't want the contact complicated by "all that"
    Zen Arado: the teacher gave us an exercise in releasing tension in our face muscles
    Calvino Rabeni: just want to look, like as if I was behind a one way mirror - but of course, another person is conscious, not an object, they look right back
    Calvino Rabeni: UNlike SL, by the way, where you can "stare" at an avatar as much as you want, and they never notice it
    Calvino Rabeni: SL is so much less contact-ful in that way
    Calvino Rabeni: You can be as detached as you want
    Calvino Rabeni: whereas face to face it takes concerted effort to maintain "the mask"
    Zen Arado: yes - but it's funny that I felt the av I looked at in that way seemed very restless - full of restless energy
    Zen Arado: they shold try it in one of the meetings here

Interesting what Cal says here about how much we project and surmise about the persons represented by SL avatars. I think I have learned from hard experience to be a little wary and cautious in this area.

 Calvino Rabeni: The avs wiggle automatically, and then we project upon them
    Calvino Rabeni: I have looked into the avs eyes and it is a little uncanny
    Zen Arado: the av I looked at was clicking on things I think
    Zen Arado: you see that in SL meditation groups
    Calvino Rabeni: Avs look at their screen, not at the sl world - it is kind of misleading
    Zen Arado: you know when an AV is doing things because their head moves
    Zen Arado: projections - interesting Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the avs could be designed to look more enlightened I suppose :)
    Zen Arado: harder to make projections of ppl in SL I think
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I think it's almost mandatory, otherwise there is little to go on :)
    Zen Arado: I mean I konw so little about you for instance
    Calvino Rabeni: That being so, most of what you surmise is a projection
    Zen Arado: I have thought some ppl around were female and found out only latelt that they were male
    Calvino Rabeni: Or a guess, a similar act of imagination
    Zen Arado: but in RL you can tell so much from appearance
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, one SL old timer, who lives next door, told me that 2/3 of the female avatars are actually males in RL
    Zen Arado: though as you say, it is often wrong and misleading
    Calvino Rabeni: I would have guessed a little less - perhaps half
    Zen Arado: depends on which groups you go to as well
    Calvino Rabeni: So I could be a female in RL, but it would be statistically pretty unlikely
    Zen Arado: people use stereotypes to deal with others
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they use stereotypes to deal with *everything*
    Zen Arado: I find I am now stereotyped as old and disabled
    Zen Arado: and get talked down to by shop assistants etc
    Zen Arado: well reminds us not to do it to others ourselves
    Zen Arado: stay open and learn and expect surprises

Cal opens a discussion on the Tibetan Lojong teachings.

    Calvino Rabeni: I've been enjoying reading the Lojong proverbs from the WOK class
    Zen Arado: I satudied them last year for a spell
    Zen Arado: they are great teching
    Zen Arado: Pema Chodron is good on them
    Calvino Rabeni: "When something unexpected happens, in that very moment, treat it as a meditation"
    Calvino Rabeni: "Don't be consistent"
    Zen Arado: a woman friend on Facebook posted one evry day for a while and got lots of comments
    Calvino Rabeni: "take all the blame to yourself"
    Calvino Rabeni: "Understand your attachments, your aversions, and your indifference, and love them all"
    Zen Arado: that's a hrd one
    Zen Arado: do you have Pema chodrons book on them?
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a web site with 7 different books translations
    Zen Arado: oh? have you got the URL?
    Calvino Rabeni: just a sec
    Zen Arado: I should look at them again
    Zen Arado: they are an ongoing practice
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.lojongmindtraining.com/Co...or=1&proverb=1
    Calvino Rabeni: You can browse other authors and proverbs from that one - it is author 1 on proverb 1
    Zen Arado: thanks Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: "Cultivate the white seeds, not the black ones"
    Calvino Rabeni: "Exclude nothing from your acceptance practice: train with a whole heart"
    Calvino Rabeni: "Free yourself by first watching, then analyzing"
    Zen Arado: Norman Fischer has a series of talks on lojong
    Zen Arado: http://www.everydayzen.org/index.php...=audio-747-524
    Zen Arado: though he is a Zen teacher

......and the benefits and disadvantages of reading commentaries rather than thinking for yourself and writing..

Calvino Rabeni: I have a practice that consists of not reading commentaries :)
    Zen Arado: ok :)
    Zen Arado: I depend on them too much
    Calvino Rabeni: Not until I have a strong personal relationship
    Calvino Rabeni: with the material
    Calvino Rabeni: The attempt is to renounce second-hand knowledge
    Zen Arado: perhaps better to read the commentaries first though and then develop your own interpretation?
    Calvino Rabeni: No, that would not be correct
    Zen Arado: you can be critical of commentaries too
    Calvino Rabeni: they are too biased
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but without a grounding first, the criticism would be unfounded
    Zen Arado: they can fill in background that you would not get though?
    Calvino Rabeni: No, as they say, don't follow the sages, seek what they sought
    Zen Arado: zen koans contain a lot of Japanese mythology that would mystify me for instance
    Calvino Rabeni: Now that you mention it, there's one lojong item - "Don't put the yak's head on the cow"
    Zen Arado: what does that mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure if it refers to the more familiar saying "rat's head, ox's neck"
    Zen Arado: we should start taking one teaching and write about it and compare interpretations
    Calvino Rabeni: And that saying, in a way, reflects my earlier statement about not reading commentaries
    Zen Arado: I have a desire to write lately
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, next WOK, we're starting with #1, "First, train in the preliminaries"
    Zen Arado: I have been too passive with teachings
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems like a good place to start
    Zen Arado: yes ok
    Calvino Rabeni: Passivity includes reading without active thinking, as writing encourages, is that what you mean?
    Zen Arado: ha ha I wouldn't know where to start without a commentary
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: You start with the book of your life :)
    Zen Arado: writing helps clarify your thoughts
    Zen Arado: yes my 'Genjokoan'
    Zen Arado: that is the most difficult one :)
    Zen Arado: my Zen teacher asked me to write a capping verse for each of the lojong teachings
    Zen Arado: but I never got around to doing it
    Zen Arado: so maybe I will think about it now
    Calvino Rabeni: I am willing to participate in a group like WOK that has more intensive out-of-class work, like writing the verses you were assigned by your zen teacher

WOK and leaderless groups problems. 

Zen Arado: what is WOK >
    Calvino Rabeni: The Ways Of Knowing workshop at Kira.
    Zen Arado: ah it is at an awkward time for me
    Zen Arado: I go to a RL meditation group Thurs nights
    Zen Arado: and don't get home in time for the start
    Calvino Rabeni: It meets now, Sundays at 9amSLT - I suppose that is awkward
    Zen Arado: oh? no I could make that I think
    Zen Arado: 5pm for me I think
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, that sounds a pretty easy time slot
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: It will be interesting to see what happens, now that it is a peer group
    Zen Arado: what do you mean'peer group'?
    Zen Arado: no leader?
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, no designated teacher / leader, since Stim left
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Although there are members who have depth
    Zen Arado: hmmm...my meditation group is like that
    Calvino Rabeni: It could suffer from "SL newbie chat syndrome"
    Zen Arado: depends on the participants - how mature they are
    Zen Arado: it works for us in RL - most of the time
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, some are mature, and they could carry it, especially if there is some "out of session" work.
    Calvino Rabeni: But material with the depth of Lojong assumes a great deal of background anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not at all sure it's anything like "explainable" in an SL chat
    Zen Arado: I suppose that ultimately we have to teach ourselves anyway
    Calvino Rabeni: That leaves reading, offline study as a necessity to reach any depth with it
    Zen Arado: it is the exploration that is important
    Calvino Rabeni: Study, including contemplation
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: The proverbs would have to be carried at length, and revisited, over time
    Zen Arado: they are nicely divided up for class work I think
    Calvino Rabeni: They are about as far away from "information" or even "concepts" as you can get :)
    Zen Arado: yes but interesting to hear other's take on them
    Zen Arado: and stimulating
    Zen Arado: especially applied to ppl's lives
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, you ideally want a "take" that is a result of a real study
    Zen Arado: I will try to get to the WOK on Sunday
    Zen Arado: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: You have a background relationship to that already, so it would be a good addition
    Zen Arado: I should go back over things more often too instead of always looking for new teachings
    Zen Arado: more depth needed

Short discussion about a book Cal told me about: "The Book of Not Knowing..."  http://3.ly/XQaz    

Zen Arado: I ordered that book you told me about BTW
    Zen Arado: Peter Ralston
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I am sometimes tempted by that same thing
    Calvino Rabeni: I got it in the mail yesterday, haven't had time to start it yet
    Zen Arado: It is a large book too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: big thick book, kind of intimidating - it is a book one must just relax and take a long time with
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: anyway I better go and do my RL meditation Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: A friend ordered another one I recommended, and read the first sentence, and then thought - that is great! and put the book down immediately
    Calvino Rabeni: One sentence per week, no hurry :)
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, Zen, I will do likewise :)
    Zen Arado: that IS slow :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good talking to you, take care. :)
    Zen Arado: you too :)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: bye