2010.02.06 13:00 - Our extraordinary duckiness (Paradise reports on Malta)

Wol Euler recovered this page from the autologging database.

 

 

Paradise Tennant: hiya wol :) nice to see you !

Liza Deischer: hi Wol, Paradise

Wol Euler: hello paradise, lovely to see you again.

Wol Euler: how was italy?

Paradise Tennant: hiya liza

Paradise Tennant: it was fun!

Paradise Tennant: warmer than malta but driving in the Sicilian hills was an experience :) very very very steep inclines in Taormina :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone

Liza Deischer: hi Yaku

Wol Euler: :)

Paradise Tennant: hiya yaku :)

Wol Euler: hello liza, yaku

Paradise Tennant: :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: does canada also suffer from the snow ?

Wol Euler: um, paradise, I thought you weren't going to be here today? didn't I claim the session?

Paradise Tennant: no really cold today but sunny and dry

Paradise Tennant: hmmm

Wol Euler: let me check my e-mail ...

Paradise Tennant: I thought this was the one I was suppose to do on the retreat theme no ?

Paradise Tennant: smiles

--BELL--

Wol Euler: oh, I see!

Wol Euler: ok, now I've got it.

Wol Euler: sharon assumed htat she would be GoC but can't make it. but you asumed you would post your own review. ok

Wol Euler: heheh

Paradise Tennant: no worries if you want to post it :)

Paradise Tennant: sorry for the confusion

Wol Euler: no, I feel no need to post any more logs :)

Paradise Tennant: nods

Wol Euler: I was just helping out

Paradise Tennant: ok this session was to focus on some of the topics explored in our 4 day malta retreat :) and three of the retreatees are here :)

Paradise Tennant: the one I found myself puzzling on the most was Pema's discussion on a concept of " no time "

Liza Deischer: hi ara

arabella Ella: Hiya Paradise! Hiya everyone!

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara :) !

Paradise Tennant: hugs arabella :)

arabella Ella hugs Paradise too!!!!!

Wol Euler: hello ara

arabella Ella: Hiya Wol ... hugz to you and Yaku and Liza too!

Pema Pera: hi everybody, hi Paradise!

Liza Deischer: hi Pema

arabella Ella: Hiya Pema!

Wol Euler: hello pema

Yakuzza Lethecus: wb pema :)

Pema Pera: How was your Italy trip, Paradise?

Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eos

Paradise Tennant: great :) lots of fun .. sicily is beautiful :)

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Yak

Liza Deischer: hi Eos

Paradise Tennant: hiya eos :)

arabella Ella: Hiya Eos!

Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pemal, Liza, Paradise,Wol

Pema Pera: you must have so many impressions stored up now, of the last two weeks . . . .

Eos Amaterasu: Ara

Paradise Tennant: yes many moments and images that I will remember for a long time :)

Paradise Tennant: I was saying before you arrived one of the themes we discussed at the retreat which I have been puzzling over was your talk of " no time " pema :)

Pema Pera: yes, Paradise?

Paradise Tennant: still blinking on a world where appearances change but time really does not exist

Pema Pera: well, it exists in a relative way, like everything else . . . .

Pema Pera: but you have the freedom to shift out from that kind of illusion, to something like timeles time

Wol Euler: hello calvino

Paradise Tennant: but not in a fundamental way

Paradise Tennant: yes

Pema Pera: (for lack of a better word)

Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :)

Pema Pera: and *then* you can appreciate both!

arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino!

Pema Pera: at the same time

Calvino Rabeni: hey everyone !

Yakuzza Lethecus: good ,,morning" cal :)

Liza Deischer: hi cal

Calvino Rabeni: :)

Pema Pera: would you like to get started, Paradise?

Paradise Tennant: so time is part of the relative illusion of appearances

Paradise Tennant: yes

Pema Pera: yes

Paradise Tennant: perhaps I would start by focusing on some of the ideas I later struggled with .. one being the relative illusion of time

Pema Pera: sure!

Paradise Tennant: the second being how causality works in PAB

Paradise Tennant: so if time is not independent of appearance just a relative .. marker of sorts what of future and past ?

--BELL--

Pema Pera: it is all given together

Pema Pera: in Buddhism it is called "co-dependent arising" -- appearances appear ("arise") as a package deal, subject and object and time and causality, they all appear (to exist) together, but they are all relative, none of those ingredients is more "real" in any way, nor are "you"

Paradise Tennant: if we achieve a perceptual awareness of no time what does that really mean

Pema Pera: cannot explained in words :-)

Pema Pera: but we can use words to point to it

Pema Pera: "dropping attachments to what appears"

Pema Pera: "letting go"

Pema Pera: "penetrating appearances relentlessly", etc.

Pema Pera: we have no choice but working with the story we find ourselves in, of this relative realm, right here :)

Pema Pera: but like watching a movie, you can fall into the movie, yet remain aware on some deep level that nobody really dies in/on the screen, even though your emotions are fully into it

Paradise Tennant: so once you see it as a story it is possible to disregard all the relative co-dependent arisings and dwell in the present moment or the no time :)

Pema Pera: well . . . something like that . . . you can be aware of both to some extent, like while watching a movie -- many options: you can fall deeply into it, or be more aware of the theater -- but these metaphors don't even begin to capture what this is . . . . .

Liza Deischer: the story defines the time

Paradise Tennant: yes liza :) it structures it

Pema Pera: perhaps you can describe your experiences in exploring "no-time". Paradise?

Paradise Tennant: lol

Paradise Tennant: not sure I have actually got to no time :)

Pema Pera: or your feelings when you try, even when it's just groping in the dark?

Pema Pera: opening for a kind of eternal now?

Paradise Tennant: I think I was closer to it as a child because I can remember moments - where time seemed to be still so to speak

Pema Pera: were there somewhat similar moments during the retreat?

Paradise Tennant: on the retreat my favourite day was the silent day .. sitting out in the sunshine looking at the valley - sort of embracing its beauty - not exactly no time but slower indeend

Liza Deischer: hi stim

arabella Ella: Hiya Stim

Wol Euler: hello stim

Paradise Tennant: hiya stim ... a pleasure to meet you :)

arabella Ella: Hiya Bertram

Stim Morane: hi everyone. Just dropping in for a few minutes.

Paradise Tennant: hiya betram )

Bertram Jacobus: hello ... :-)

Bertram Jacobus: similar here may be (as stim) ...

Paradise Tennant: :)

Paradise Tennant: did anyone else here .. find moments of no time during the retreat :) ?

Liza Deischer: hi bert

arabella Ella: i think time definitely took on a different perspective for me ... I did not wear a watch and that helped

Bertram Jacobus: i even don't think about such feelings then paradise - may be ? ... ;-)

Wol Euler nods. Time as a way of viewing the world pretty well stopped for me that week

arabella Ella: i think some of us just let time 'be'

Paradise Tennant: that is a great way to phrase it arabella :)

Paradise Tennant: just let time be :)

arabella Ella smiles

Eos Amaterasu: perhaps letting _all_ of time be is timeless time

--BELL--

Pema Pera: yes :)

Eos Amaterasu: appreciating the entire contextuality of our presence in Malta

Paradise Tennant: can you say more eos ..what was the entire contextuality for you in malta :)

Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to appreciate the appearance of the word "contextuality" :)

Eos Amaterasu: all of us coming from various parts of the globe, the deep sense of history there, of coincidence (Godwin having put that picture up), our soon to be return to our "normal" lives, etc

Paradise Tennant: :) cal

Paradise Tennant: yes there was synchronicity there from the get go :)

arabella Ella: the various intertwining threads of the whole tapestry Eos?

Eos Amaterasu: yes... lots of interdependencies, as Pema says, and also all of that suspended, something perhaps appreciable in sudden flashes

Eos Amaterasu: but please go on with your story, Paradise!

Paradise Tennant: lol

Paradise Tennant: well I came away with many impressions ... and questions .. and perhaps a sense of oneness :) of shared resonance of shared contextuality :)

Eos Amaterasu: :-)

Pema Pera: :)

Paradise Tennant: being able to spend time in person .. sharing thoughts and sometimes just being .. gave those days a certain shine :)

Paradise Tennant: a kind of luminosity :)

Paradise Tennant: and perhaps there was no surprise to how compatible the group was :) - the mix of ideas attitudes .. all in balance in a way

Paradise Tennant: the second question I came away with .. was how causality works in pab ... in buddism there is karma .. an interdependence and sometimes long reaching impact of our thoughts and actions ....

Bertram Jacobus: did you find an answer to that question paradise ?

Paradise Tennant: looks hopefully to pema :)

Pema Pera: hehehe, it's your session, Paradise

Pema Pera is learning from Eos !

Paradise Tennant: :)

Paradise Tennant: well logically .. it gets sticky

Paradise Tennant: causality is co dependent with time

Paradise Tennant: can there be a realm where our thoughts and actions do not have consequence

Pema Pera: of course it would be strange to deny what we see around us, the *appearance* of causality, in all its many details

Pema Pera: yet there may be a kind of orientation that sees through the relative "truth" of causality

Pema Pera: BUT that doesn't mean that you can keep "you" and "things" and "world" but suddenly all those players without causality

--BELL--

arabella Ella: i think you had told us Pema that there is nothing necessary in causality, not sure if that is a correct interpretation?

Wol Euler: I think it depends how you want to measure it all, Paradise. In terms of the next 150 thousand years, it surely makes no difference at all if you smack that child or not. But for you and the kid, it matters a lot. IMHO

Paradise Tennant: ;)

Pema Pera: Paradise, living in this world without causality might be a bit like retaining Donald Duck while doing away with the magazine, "liberating" Donald Duck from the confines of the paper, and letting him walk around on the street -- that's not the meaning of "Donald Duck not being ultimately real" . . . .

Pema Pera: causality is clearly happening, apparently, but *all* elements of the story can "at the same time" be seen in their emptiness aspect

Pema Pera now trying to shut up :-)

Paradise Tennant: blinks

Bertram Jacobus: good luck pema ! :o)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Pema Pera: :)

arabella Ella: Pema would it be possible to 'drop' your silence and to give us an example of seeing all elements of the story in their emptiness aspect ... besides the Donald Duck example ... please?

Stim Morane: :)

Liza Deischer: :D

Pema Pera: hehehe

Pema Pera: perhaps Stim or Eos or someone else can give a different angle?

Stim Morane: sorry, still laughing too much

Liza Deischer: I wonder if there is a good example (except for Donald Duck :-))

Pema Pera: (we can try Mickey Mouse!)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Paradise Tennant: donald duck would have to have some extraordinary duckiness that was not captured in the confines of the comic book the pages the ink :)

Liza Deischer: it is so hard to imagine what it means

arabella Ella: is it like when you describe looking at one frame at a time in a movie?

arabella Ella: frame by frame?

Eos Amaterasu: appreciating presence of appearance does not mean that the patterns and rules and cause/effect chains of appearance disappear

Eos Amaterasu: they are part of appearance

Eos Amaterasu: part of what we appreciate: birth/life/death

Liza Deischer: emptiness is the non existing of all elements, but yet the elements are there

Eos Amaterasu: !

Liza Deischer: how those two insides relate to each other is the big question

Bertram Jacobus: sry - have to leave again - disappear fast so that i don't disturb the flow here too much ...

Pema Pera: (sorry, RL calling -- have to leave now -- thanks a lot Paradise, for plunging in here after two weeks away!!)

arabella Ella: bye Pema and thanks!

Liza Deischer: bye Bert, Pema

Wol Euler: bye pema, take care

Pema Pera: (Ara, Para, and all: Eos will answer *all* your questions, I

Paradise Tennant: smiles have a great day pema and bert thanks for joining us

Pema Pera: am sure!

Paradise Tennant: :)

Pema Pera: bfn

Eos Amaterasu: bye Bert, Pema (heh heh to answering all questions)

Liza Deischer: you start with realising that everything is not going to stay here forever

Liza Deischer: not us, not PaB, not even the world

Liza Deischer: so if that is true, what is left

Paradise Tennant: :)

Liza Deischer: what is real

Paradise Tennant: our extraordinary duckiness :)

Wol Euler: right

Stim Morane: :)

Eos Amaterasu: the strawberry tastes no less sweet

arabella Ella: change is real, transience is real

Liza Deischer: and yet we are sitting here, talking, trying to understand

Wol Euler: because it is quite extraordinary that we are (seem to be) here, and duck-ish

Paradise Tennant: lol

Liza Deischer: is that true Ara

--BELL--

arabella Ella: ah Liza I wish i knew

Liza Deischer: so do I?

Liza Deischer: :-)

Liza Deischer: :-) Wol

Wol Euler wakes up and looks around. Yes?

Paradise Tennant: :)

Liza Deischer: and if we don't find a good AO we surely walk like a duck :-)

Wol Euler: proven!

Paradise Tennant: lol

arabella Ella quacks ... (in an attempt to understand more perhaps?)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Paradise Tennant: :)

Eos Amaterasu: if a cartooon duck runs into a cartoon wall it quacks up

Liza Deischer: but it is extra-ordinary that we seem to be here

Liza Deischer: and that is something we can work with

Paradise Tennant: yes

Liza Deischer: we have a body, we think, communicate

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Paradise Tennant: our awareness

Liza Deischer: it is all there, even if it is not going to stay

Stim Morane: On that note, must go ...

arabella Ella: bye Stim

Liza Deischer: bye stim

Wol Euler: bye stim, enjoy your saturday

Stim Morane: Thanks, everyone.

Paradise Tennant: bye stim thanks for joining us

Eos Amaterasu: Bye Stim

Stim Morane: sorry about the abrupt introduction, Paradise. Sent you an IM.

Stim Morane: :)

arabella Ella waits for Eos to start answering questions (as Pema said he would ...)

Wol Euler: :)

Eos Amaterasu: ah ah, it's the questions that are better worth posing....

Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni slips out - bye all

Liza Deischer: bye Cal

arabella Ella: bye Calvino

Wol Euler: bye cal, take care

Eos Amaterasu: ~ ~

Paradise Tennant: waves take care cal

Eos Amaterasu: Paradise, what did you find difficult at the retreat?

Eos Amaterasu: (other than timeless ducks)

Paradise Tennant: besides the no time and causality

Paradise Tennant: found the rest pretty easy

Paradise Tennant: comfortable

Paradise Tennant: fun :)

Paradise Tennant: what did you find difficult eos ;)

Eos Amaterasu: tune in... :-)

Eos Amaterasu: I think I had some worries about the silent day, especially after Pema and I were gone on a long hike

arabella Ella: yes?

arabella Ella: why?

Wol Euler: did you think we'd cheat?

Eos Amaterasu: :-)

arabella Ella: i was gonna say ... did we not seem trustworthy?

Eos Amaterasu: was wondering if we were abandoning you :-)

arabella Ella: ah

Wol Euler: ah

Eos Amaterasu: but everyone seemed pretty relaxed, and very appreciative of the day, of silence opening things up

Wol Euler: it did feel a bit perilously loose, unstructured, unwrapped at first

Wol Euler: but that didn't last

Paradise Tennant: interesting watching structure emerge from being :)

Eos Amaterasu: trust the space

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: must duck out :-)

Wol Euler: quack!

Liza Deischer: it is interesting to feel unstructured, unwrapped

Eos Amaterasu: bye gang!

Paradise Tennant: take care eos

Eos Amaterasu: Thanks para

Liza Deischer: that's where things start

Paradise Tennant: :)

Liza Deischer: bye eos

Wol Euler: I shall have to leave as well, I'm really tired.

Paradise Tennant: yes liza I think with dropping .... it removes a lot fo the wrapping

Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care. Thanks Paradise, it was great to see you again

Paradise Tennant: thanks for joining us wol :) sweet dreams

arabella Ella: nite Wol take care too

Liza Deischer: bye wol

Liza Deischer: sleep well

Liza Deischer: it is opening up spaze

Liza Deischer: space

arabella Ella: I must go too its late here

Liza Deischer: bye ara

arabella Ella: lovely to have seen you again Paradise and thanks!

Paradise Tennant: nite nite arabella

arabella Ella: nite all

Paradise Tennant: lovely to see you again

Paradise Tennant: big hug

arabella Ella: hug to u too!

Liza Deischer: nice to have met you paradise and thanks for your story

Liza Deischer: see you

Paradise Tennant: take care liza :) a pleasure to have met you too :)

Liza Deischer: thanks

Paradise Tennant: how have you been yaku :) good trip back ?

Paradise Tennant: going to have to scoot take care yaku .. catch in the metaverse soon :)