2010.02.10 13:00 - PaB As A Lab

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    The Guardian for this meeting was No Self - Since Fefonz couldn't get in world. The comments are by Fefonz.

    Liza Deischer: hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello liza!
    Wol Euler: hallo bert
    Liza Deischer: hi bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hi ladies ! ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: there are not many people who say that to me :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. okay. you know - my bad english ... .O)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: how are you today ? :-)
    Wol Euler: struggling a bit, to be honest
    Liza Deischer: how come?
    Bertram Jacobus: struggle with something special ?
    Wol Euler: hard to say. Unhappiness, feelings of futility
    Wol Euler: stuck in a rut of my own making
    Wol Euler: the usual :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah - youֲ´re not alone wol (!) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: i know this
    Liza Deischer: you call that usual :-)
    Wol Euler: hold that thought, sorry, I have to step out for a moment :(
    Bertram Jacobus: most may know - may be all ...
    Liza Deischer: yes, probably, and it tells us something that we classify that as usual
    Liza Deischer: while it refers to a deep feeling of unhappiness
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fael and yaku ! ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
    Bertram Jacobus: and bleu :-)
    Fael Illyar: hmm... I thought wol said something about coming to geek here.
    Liza Deischer: she was around
    Bleu Oleander: hi!
    Liza Deischer: hi Fael, Bleu
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bleu, welcome to the guardian group
    Liza Deischer: she was coming back, she said
    Bleu Oleander: thanks!
    Liza Deischer: yes, welcome bleu (now feeling the need to spell the name right from now on :-))
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know if you already got one of these :)
    Bleu Oleander: no i never did, ty!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but sometime´s if somebody says the magic words it´s usefull, wol gave it to me when i became a guardian :P
    Bleu Oleander: thanks!
    Fael Illyar: ah, looks like I need to go :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: haven´t seen the sillyness before that :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi and bye :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye fael
    Bleu Oleander: bye
    Liza Deischer: bey fael
    Liza Deischer: a little late
    Bleu Oleander: how is the time workshop going Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s still a confusing book for me, but pema is a good moderator.
    Bleu Oleander: it's rather confusing for me too
    Bertram Jacobus: what is confusing about it ?
    Bertram Jacobus: hello ara ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: You should really join that workshop as well bleu since you read the book.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
    Liza Deischer: hey ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: missed you at TSK
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Bleu Oleander: i'll try ... the time is hard for me
    arabella Ella: oh was TSK today? Oh noooo
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya Bleu welcome as a Guardian!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, it was 4 am for pema :)
    Bleu Oleander: thanks Ara
    arabella Ella: owwww poor Pema
    Yakuzza Lethecus: since he´s in japan again
    Bleu Oleander: harder for him!
    arabella Ella: only tough though if you need to get up early for morning appointments or meetings
    Liza Deischer: nice glasses ara
    arabella Ella whispers ... thanks Liza!
    Liza Deischer: i try to figure out who should be claiming the log
    Liza Deischer: but I'm not handy in finding it :-)
    arabella Ella: I think Wed is generally Fef but I have no idea if there were any changes
    Liza Deischer: wb wol
    Wol Euler: ty
    Bleu Oleander: hi Wol
    Wol Euler: hello bleu, welcome!
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino Hi Wol
    Bleu Oleander: ty!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Helo Ara :)
    Liza Deischer: hi cal
    Bertram Jacobus: hi cal :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: re wol :-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: whatever.
    arabella Ella: Hey everyone we are so quiet here tonight ... any topics?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Can we make conjectures, hypotheses about what Being could be, and play with those in our day-to-day life? What happens when we do?"
    Calvino Rabeni: (from PaB web site)
    arabella Ella: intruiging
    Calvino Rabeni: My question is - do you do "experiments"?
    arabella Ella: and ... 'should' we make conjectures hypothesis etc ... or should be just let Being be?
    Calvino Rabeni: "Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. "
    Wol Euler: hello lawrence
    Wol Euler: have you been here before?
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy lawrence - nice to meet you again (!) ... :-))
    Liza Deischer: hi Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi. I've been here once.
    Wol Euler: ah, that answers my wquestion :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, everyone.
    Wol Euler: so you know about the website and publishing the meeting?
    arabella Ella: Hi Lawrence
    Lawrence Vyceratops: I am aware.
    Bertram Jacobus: (but we met at the buddha land) ... ;-)
    Wol Euler: good, ty :)
    Liza Deischer: Are you asking for being or playing?
    Wol Euler: hello TH
    Liza Deischer: hi TH
    Bertram Jacobus: hello th ... :-)
    TH Ordinary: hello!
    Bleu Oleander: hey TH
    Liza Deischer: brb
    Yakuzza Lethecus sneakes into his warm bed, night everyone!
    Calvino Rabeni: My question was - do you "experiment"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye yakusan
    Bleu Oleander: nite Yaku
    Wol Euler: night yaku, schlaf gut
    Calvino Rabeni: What are the barriers to "experiment", if it is difficult in some way?
    arabella Ella: do you think it is difficult to 'experiment' Calvino?
    Lawrence Vyceratops: What is the topic of discussion?
    Calvino Rabeni: Let's say you encounter a friend unexpectely, then remember the 9-second idea, and use it, then look at it as an opportunity
    Calvino Rabeni: The meeting with your friend is your life, and right then it becomes your "laboratory"
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: So do you make a hypothesis, make an experiment, try something new, see if it works out as expected ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Or is there some difficulty?
    Bertram Jacobus: seems to be the pab practise law ...
    arabella Ella: nite Yaku
    Calvino Rabeni: Which would also be part of the experiment :)
    Wol Euler: oh, I think I get it. You are asking whether the word "experiment" is appropriate for using mindfulness to examine our lives?
    Wol Euler: hello mick
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Sorry, I was late... What is the experiment?
    arabella Ella: I think there is a lot more to PaB than simply the 9 sec pause
    arabella Ella: there are all the APA, etc
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya
    arabella Ella: (cant remember all the names right now)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm asking - do you actually do "experiments" and what do they consist of - what is your experience with doing such experiments
    Bertram Jacobus: hi mick ! ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: hi mick
    Calvino Rabeni: Any lab reports ? :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, "the experiment" is the 9 second micro meditation all 15 minutes lawrence ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Play as Being is a radical concept and as so, I think one is justified in expecting a fair amount of "resistance"
    TH Ordinary: if you are 'practicing beeing' are you being?
    Liza Deischer: minfulness to me is something different then experimenting. But experiments can come into play. But if I think I can harm someone, I always check my motivation
    Mickorod Renard: I guess its about what we may find out about our daily lives through taking time to observe
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of PlayAsBeing - at least originally - has a very experimental - that is active - component
    arabella Ella: yes Calvino we discussed this a bit at the Malta retreat
    Calvino Rabeni: that is ... what do you *do* with your awareness in your life?
    Liza Deischer: to me mindfulness is an activity
    arabella Ella: but i think a lot of PaB involves mindfulness as part of the experiement
    Liza Deischer: and can give very different results then you expected
    Bleu Oleander: we try to look "at" what we normally look "through"
    arabella Ella: like the one 'Being Seeing'
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is the first bit of "equipment" for the experiment - mindfulness
    Calvino Rabeni: The challenge is - can mindfulness open any real doors in your real life experience
    Mickorod Renard: then there are different perspectives than just the routine that we get trapped in
    Calvino Rabeni: The door handle can be grasped, turned, opened
    Wol Euler: or licked...
    Liza Deischer: mindfulness can be a trigger to do things differently, because you can learn that your approach is only based on patterns, not on openess
    Calvino Rabeni: And so I'm curious, what experiments have been done?
    Calvino Rabeni: And then what happened?
    Calvino Rabeni: The practice is not just a concept, a possibility
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a doing in a place and a time
    arabella Ella: all the experiments done here with Pema are recorded in various places on the web, mainly on Kira wiki I guess
    Liza Deischer: ah, now I understand you
    Calvino Rabeni: And in one's daily life - "Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. "
    Mickorod Renard: much is self discovery,,and as such private other than what is shared here
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to be a little "fundamentalist" here
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes privacy is worth respecting
    Lawrence Vyceratops: Have to go... Hope to join the group again... Good Day! :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The question then is - do you do experiments "in private" even if you don't want to report them :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Law
    Liza Deischer: bye lawrence
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Lawrence
    Liza Deischer: oh yes
    arabella Ella: Well Calvino, there are a number of experiments many of which we used to do with Pema here some months back
    Mickorod Renard: personally, I do them daily,,and find that they now form part of my routine
    Bleu Oleander: like what Ara?
    arabella Ella: and many of them may be described as different variants of either mindfulness or phenomenology
    Liza Deischer: i think I know what youre asking for, but it is hard to get personal about that
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I mean real experiments - you become aware, look at your life around you, then say "now what"?
    Liza Deischer: because most of them are
    arabella Ella: but you dont look at 'your life around you' that would be too generalistic ... you need to be more specific
    Calvino Rabeni: The resistance to doing the experiments - and the resistance to not being "private" - are related?
    Calvino Rabeni: Ara, that is exactly my point
    Liza Deischer: no, not to me
    arabella Ella: like looking at a strong emotion that arises or looking at something that attracts your attention when outdoors or what
    Wol Euler: hello laura, born today :) welcome to SL
    Mickorod Renard: I do feel there is a limit that I have reached that I would like to overcome
    Bertram Jacobus: hello laura
    Laura Blackcinder: hi
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Laura
    Liza Deischer: hi Laura
    Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduction in IM so we don't disturb the others
    TH Ordinary: hi Laura
    Bleu Oleander: hi laura
    Laura Blackcinder: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: LImits are a way to notice the structure, and get a handle on it - that is halfway to formulating an "experiment"
    Liza Deischer: somehow this setting doesn't give me the opportunity to get into that
    Liza Deischer: and its not about the people
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, maybe a mpre private setting would
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    arabella Ella: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, I can say - yes, I do the experiments
    Liza Deischer: I think it is more about environment
    Calvino Rabeni: And then, I have some resistance to specifying the particulars
    Liza Deischer: you need to get to that place
    arabella Ella: and your question Calvino is then ... what do the experiments do for me?
    Liza Deischer: and not just you, but everyone
    Calvino Rabeni: Is "that place" an external thing, or a state of mind, Liza
    Liza Deischer: state of mind
    Liza Deischer: but you need to be able to share that
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Liza Deischer: and sometimes it is here
    arabella Ella: ok i could try to use a simple example from today Calvino
    Liza Deischer: I don't feel it is here today
    arabella Ella: of Being seeing
    Liza Deischer: please do ara
    Mickorod Renard: some experiments have been rewarding in revealing results that I have been satisfied with,,,but that often opens up more possibilities
    arabella Ella: i went for a walk in the countryside today on my own ... nice and peaceful
    arabella Ella: and it was raining
    arabella Ella: and at one point i stopped to watch spinklers on a small patch (field) sprinkling water in the rain and the spray flying around ... all on a small scale
    arabella Ella: and i focussed on Being seing
    arabella Ella: and let my mind play with that idea
    arabella Ella: and it was all very serene and peaceful and in my humble opinion ...
    Bleu Oleander: do these experiments reveal anything other than how the mind seems first personally?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have seen, it is hard for people to share their "experments here" - but important to do them - and sometimes sharing helps others as well as oneself
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, Ara
    arabella Ella: it helps us to get better 'grip' (?) on our thinking and gives us more serenity both for ourselves and others around us
    Liza Deischer: true
    Liza Deischer: thanks ara
    Liza Deischer: serenity is not the goal
    Calvino Rabeni: And there's a kind of "meta" or bigger experiment - one's life is such an experiment
    arabella Ella: it actually involves dropping everything else except the specific experience (or emotion) which one is focussing on
    Calvino Rabeni: Serenity could be the experiment's observable
    Mickorod Renard: thats true Calvino,,but some of us here have revealed lots in earlier sessions,,maybe a year back, and now feel that we would be repeating old hat
    arabella Ella: what is the goal Liza?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not a goal in the "big" experiment, but in the small one, yes
    Liza Deischer: to me it is for now to become a better human being,
    arabella Ella: ok possibly
    Liza Deischer: to myself and others
    Liza Deischer: it is about compassion
    arabella Ella: or perhaps to make the world a better place for all ... altho that may sound rather bland
    Liza Deischer: especially when I or somebody els is struggeling
    Liza Deischer: it is easy to give space to good, serene feelings, but not very hard when they are not
    arabella Ella: true Liza ... if I understood what you said :)
    Calvino Rabeni: @mick, is it possible to "run out" of new experiments and then risk repetition?
    Liza Deischer: it is nice to be nice to someone, but hard when you realize somebody needs something else
    arabella Ella: but i think it is all a matter of practice and building up skill in 'dropping'
    Liza Deischer: that's a good start
    Calvino Rabeni: @liza, I think it fine to have a purpose or goal for what to do with the knowledge gained in the experiment
    arabella Ella: @Liza it is even harder when you find out someone else is trying to manipulate you with deception!
    Mickorod Renard: without sounding selfish, I find that I can articulate well being better when my own sense of well being is good and I can therefore see more clearly
    Calvino Rabeni: It is like applied science, R & D
    Liza Deischer: *but very hard when they are not (made a mistake a fel lines back)
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand, Mick
    arabella Ella: yes Calvino that is precisely how Pema described it ... applied science
    arabella Ella: (thought so)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, very scientific,as Pema framed it up
    arabella Ella: yes
    Liza Deischer: yes are, for example
    Calvino Rabeni: And theories need testing :)
    arabella Ella: Pema also has a you tube video with similar ideas
    Liza Deischer: I think I now what you mean Mick, but to me feeling good doesn't make things clear
    Calvino Rabeni: Or vice versa,necessarily
    Liza Deischer: but if you say sense of well being, then it sounds like something is growing inside, that gives you another and more clear perspective on yourself
    Mickorod Renard: it helps to be able to see through things when one isnt clouded by issues
    Calvino Rabeni: But, I think one can cultivat clear state of mind, or at least, see the presence of such as an opportunity
    Liza Deischer: or to look at the issue that is in front of you
    Calvino Rabeni: But a bigger freedom is to see through whatever is the present case, clear or cloudy
    arabella Ella: yes Calvino and here this may link with the I Ching too
    Liza Deischer: true, but you need to start somewhere
    arabella Ella: and change is always there somewhere
    Mickorod Renard: I often do it for collegues, other than myself,,when they are at a wits end,,stepping back from an issue to reavaluate is simple and productive
    Liza Deischer: yes, it is
    Calvino Rabeni: That's a useful maneuver Mick
    Liza Deischer: yes, it is :-)
    Wol Euler nods.
    Liza Deischer: but how do you do that when you are full of anger?
    Calvino Rabeni: PaB practice could be a quick way to draw back like that, and then "re-enter" with extra resources
    arabella Ella would just like to say excuse me Pema if I have explained it all incorrectly :)
    Liza Deischer: or feel completely unhappy
    Mickorod Renard: dropping is easier under some circumstances than others
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember - dropping can be partial
    Calvino Rabeni: You drop just enough to free up some attention
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and then leap back into the fray
    arabella Ella: We have discussed those with Pema here Liza ... emotions ... and stopping ... and dropping ... and somehow taking on a different perspective through dropping time too
    Calvino Rabeni: or maelstrom, or cauldron :)
    Liza Deischer: okay
    Calvino Rabeni: WIth "multilevel" attention that now has more than one perspective
    Calvino Rabeni: additional freedom that wasn't there before
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: Another exercise which Pema sometimes suggests is seeing life like a movie, frame by frame
    Calvino Rabeni: It is not practical to go to the monastery, and come back in several years when no longer angry
    Bertram Jacobus: frame by frame = picture by picture ?
    Mickorod Renard: and also watching ourselves as like a parent watching a child
    Liza Deischer: the only thing I try to say is that clearing your mind is not always an easy thing to do
    arabella Ella: yes Bert
    Liza Deischer: and not always peaceful
    Bertram Jacobus: ty :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The difficult situation is the arena of practice
    Bleu Oleander: like a detached observer
    Liza Deischer: yes mick, that is where the compassion comes in
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: detached AND fully engaged
    arabella Ella: well Liza I doubt whether it is easy for those who have been practising for years and years either
    Mickorod Renard: we can be very forgiving for our own children
    Liza Deischer: that is easy to sat Cal, but how do you do that?
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fogtenk
    Calvino Rabeni: and forgiving of one's own internal children
    Liza Deischer: and we should also do so for ourselfs and others
    Mickorod Renard: also there is the story
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think it's difficult in many cases, Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you think it is difficult "in general"?
    Bertram Jacobus: iֲ´ll jump away - ty as always, have a good time - bfn ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: it's the few others cases that matters most, most of the time
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bert
    Mickorod Renard: the story can lead in may directions,,but we can choose to some extent which path to buy into
    Liza Deischer: bi bert
    arabella Ella: nite Bert!
    Wol Euler: bye bert, take care
    Bleu Oleander: bye bert'
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: bye bert
    TH Ordinary: bye
    Liza Deischer: but maybe I should shut up :-)
    Wol Euler: certainly not, liza
    Calvino Rabeni: No Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Liza Deischer: because I have a feeling it sounds harsher, then I mean
    arabella Ella: please dont shut up Liza I think we can all identify with what you are describing
    Mickorod Renard: dont u dare shut up Liza {)
    Wol Euler: clarification is always good :)
    Liza Deischer: okay, I won't
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler grins.
    Calvino Rabeni: Liza is usefully looking at the experience, I believe valuably
    Liza Deischer: (she said a bit.....eh...insecure)
    arabella Ella: well when very strong emotions arise in our selves like when someone deliberately does something to wind us up or hurt us, then it is not easy to deal with, but according to Pema, not impossible
    Mickorod Renard: I feel so ambarrassed inside myself, when I know all these idea's and yet at times cannot find the effort to manage my own anger
    Liza Deischer: yes, indeed, and I think Cal's questiong is (but I'm not sure) is how we experiment with that
    Bleu Oleander: bye everybody :)
    TH Ordinary: bye all, thanks!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bleu
    Liza Deischer: It would be my question
    Liza Deischer: be th
    Wol Euler: bye bleu, bye th
    Liza Deischer: bye gleu
    Calvino Rabeni: Experiments with Anger
    Liza Deischer: Bleu
    arabella Ella: well IMHO when for example we get very angry ... we need to stop, pause and ask ... why am i angry ... what can i do about this ... what if i let this simply be?
    Mickorod Renard: bye bleu
    Calvino Rabeni: or depression, or fear, just to name a few emotions
    Liza Deischer: somehow I don't seem to be albe to write the name Bleu right
    Wol Euler: :)
    Liza Deischer: fear is a diffecult one
    Wol Euler nods to Mick. That's the core of it, yes, applying what we know to ourselves
    Liza Deischer: but I think you're right ella
    arabella Ella: and we could then realise that there is absolutely nothing we could do cos our anger is the anger of others ... not really ours
    Calvino Rabeni: all very compelling aspects of experience
    arabella Ella: so simply ... Let it Be
    Calvino Rabeni: and tend to cover up "awareness"
    arabella Ella: why?
    Liza Deischer: no, but that anger can trigger our anger
    Calvino Rabeni: People sometimes hope these will "go away" if ignored or dropped
    Liza Deischer: it did, because otherwise we wouldn't become angry
    Calvino Rabeni: But they come back to bite, if they are pushed into a shadow area
    Liza Deischer: yes, but I think you say soething valuable there cal
    arabella Ella: exactly Liza ... so if our anger is triggered by others ... what is it really?
    Liza Deischer: dropped or ignored
    arabella Ella: should it be there at all?
    Liza Deischer: that is a big difference
    Liza Deischer: and how do we make the distinction between those two
    Liza Deischer: are we really dropping
    Liza Deischer: or are we ignoring
    Mickorod Renard: not buying into someone elses story is something one needs to understand
    Liza Deischer: the it is your anger
    Liza Deischer: then
    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, good questions
    arabella Ella: not ignore ... it is there
    arabella Ella: just put it into perspective then 'drop'
    arabella Ella: due to the futility
    Calvino Rabeni: A shallow "drop" will buy a little free attention
    Liza Deischer: there is another techniec that is doing the opposite
    Calvino Rabeni: A deeper "drop" may be more permanent
    Mickorod Renard: it helps me to view others as living their own story,,I have my own,,in that way there is some seperation that allows self determination
    Liza Deischer: (not being able to shut up anyway) yes, but 'giving' it back is opening the way of not looking what is going on with you
    arabella Ella: no one said 'giving it back' .... just realising that someone else wishes it on you ... but why should you take it on?
    Calvino Rabeni: Any story is true and also misleading, since it puts you in a perspective from which some things are accessible and others are hidden
    Liza Deischer: you already did by getting angry
    Liza Deischer: to me it is more interesting to see why it makes me angry
    Liza Deischer: what is it triggering in me
    Mickorod Renard: that is a good point Liza
    Liza Deischer: even if I fully understand that the angers initially comes from somebody else
    Mickorod Renard: and we often bundle emotions into one angry catagory
    arabella Ella: anger or other emotions are often triggered due to a mis match (dissonance) between what we expect and what actually happens
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I think Liza is suggesting a kind of experimental approach - with one objective is to get insight
    Calvino Rabeni: even if it is at the cost of not immediately "resolving" or bringing "peace"
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Or do I misinterpret somewhat?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe some anger can be depleted by seeing it as say,,,,frustration or sadness
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they can be related Mick
    Liza Deischer: if you let anger get the better of it
    Liza Deischer: sometimes frustration comes up
    Liza Deischer: or sadness
    Calvino Rabeni: Anger is sometimes called a "secondary" emotion
    Liza Deischer: anger is never going to stay
    arabella Ella: for myself ... the irony is the HUGE difference in perceiving anger in others ... and perceiving it in our own selves (obejctive and subjective perspetvies)
    Liza Deischer: nor any other emotion
    Calvino Rabeni: Meaning there is something "underneath" it
    Liza Deischer: to see it moving around is interesting
    Mickorod Renard: anger can cause self damage,,thats what we want to avoid
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Liza Deischer: you don't get angry t there is nothing to be angry about
    Mickorod Renard: Wrath on the other hand is managable
    Calvino Rabeni: you don't want to be a masochist
    Liza Deischer: if you don't feel it
    Calvino Rabeni: Wrath is outer-directed
    Calvino Rabeni: Sadism is unhealty outer-directed
    Liza Deischer: I understand what you mean ara, and yes that is hard
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Calvino Rabeni: The level of sadism / masochism is a lower consciousness state of anger
    Liza Deischer: yes anger can couse damage
    Liza Deischer: good point
    Liza Deischer: but that is when you try to ignore it
    Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully more awareness would raise it to a constructive level
    Liza Deischer: or become anger
    Mickorod Renard: I work in a school,,wrath is everywhere,,but it doesnt seem to effect the heart of those needeing to use it
    arabella Ella whispers ... nite all must go now :)
    Liza Deischer: bye ara, mick
    Wol Euler: bye ara, bye mick
    Mickorod Renard: I need to get home guys,,it was and is good chatting
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Liza Deischer: that was fast ara :-)
    Mickorod Renard: yikes
    arabella Ella: he he
    arabella Ella: cant TP
    Calvino Rabeni: Come back soon :)
    Liza Deischer: mick was having problems also
    Wol Euler: I too must go, my dears.
    Wol Euler: business to attend to
    Wol Euler: bye for now, take care
    Liza Deischer: okay wol, see you
    Calvino Rabeni: Was good 2 have you here Wol :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Liza Deischer: I think I need to read this log :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a lot in it - and even more lurking just nearby
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: The "penumbra"
    Liza Deischer: but it also makes me insecure talking like this :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Learning to go easy :)
    Liza Deischer: I'm not so outgoing
    Liza Deischer: normally :-)
    Liza Deischer: oenumbra?
    Liza Deischer: penumbra
    Calvino Rabeni: That is the partly lighted area around a planetary body during an eclipse
    Calvino Rabeni: the metaphor of the light and the partial shadow
    Calvino Rabeni: there are always many more implicit, unspoken things that get attracted around any conversation or idea
    Liza Deischer: ah, ok
    Liza Deischer: the attraction of the body
    Liza Deischer: planet what ever
    Liza Deischer: you crashed
    Calvino Rabeni: oops - sorry :)
    Liza Deischer: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: The nature of what happens here in the group, is very influenced by the relationships the members have with each other
    Liza Deischer: how does it feel right now?
    Calvino Rabeni: understanding and /or trust
    Calvino Rabeni: It feels, there is always a gray zone near the penumbra
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: being energized, maybe some fear
    Calvino Rabeni: a dynamic mix between excitement and fear, like characteristic of "risky" sports for example
    Liza Deischer: yes, but that is the fear most want to leave out
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure they do, they for the main part stay comfortable\
    Liza Deischer: and this kind of fear is very interesting
    Liza Deischer: because you just stepped over you boundary
    Calvino Rabeni: Except, there are people that enjoy different levels of risk
    Liza Deischer: I have the same feeling about myself tonight
    Calvino Rabeni: and all boundaries are flexible, and change somewhat when waked near
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: some people don't understand fear
    Liza Deischer: so they look for it
    Calvino Rabeni: Athletes know it in physical areas of experience
    Liza Deischer: to at least get the excitement from it
    Calvino Rabeni: Fear + consciousness often becomes excitement
    Calvino Rabeni: And in one sense, those are not actually separate "emotions"
    Liza Deischer: yes but that is the spinooff from the fear
    Calvino Rabeni: just labels that say something about how resourced one is when encountering the experience
    Liza Deischer: hi Quin
    Quin Maven: hi
    Liza Deischer: you've been here before?
    Quin Maven: i have
    Liza Deischer: you know that we are still recording?
    Quin Maven: no
    Liza Deischer: it means that what you say is going to be recorded and placed on a website
    Liza Deischer: unless you don't want that
    Quin Maven: no i don't want that
    Liza Deischer: then maybe it is better not to stay
    Liza Deischer: or only listen
    Liza Deischer: he has been here before
    Calvino Rabeni: Usually visitors say OK to that issue
    Liza Deischer: explained how it works
    Calvino Rabeni: You have seem Quin here?
    Liza Deischer: but keep coming back :-)
    Liza Deischer: I think so
    Liza Deischer: yes, though some do leaf
    Liza Deischer: but then they leaf :-)
    Liza Deischer: leave
    Liza Deischer: as you would expect
    Liza Deischer: that's why I asked to be certain he understands
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I'm expecting a RL phone call pretty soon, now is a good time to get ready for it
    Calvino Rabeni: GTG Liza, see you later :)
    Liza Deischer: see you later
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