2010.02.11 07:00 - How can we experience a peaceful world?

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

It is a bright winter's morning for me in real life. In the Play as Being pavilion, it is still dark though winter has passed. Lawrence and Archmage were there waiting on the hour, and a deep discussion is waiting unseen in the wings...

Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, Storm.
Storm Nordwind: Hello Lawrence
Archmage Atlantis: hello Storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi Arch
Lawrence Vyceratops: brown snake?
Archmage Atlantis: Iwill ask the animas to depart
Storm Nordwind: They are your familiars Arch
Archmage Atlantis: yes
Archmage Atlantis: they know what I know
Storm Nordwind: And do they not know what you do not know Arch? :)
Archmage Atlantis: yes

This is the first time I have spoken with Lawrence, so I ask the usual kinds of question.

Storm Nordwind: Lawrence, please excuse my asking, but have you been to meetings in this Play as Being pavilion before?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Once.
Storm Nordwind: Ah... good. Then I don't need to ask your permission again to publish your presence or anything you say! :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: No, it's fine. :)
Archmage Atlantis: He is Law
Storm Nordwind: Great thank you
Lawrence Vyceratops: Everyone says that. haha
Storm Nordwind: Better perhaps than saying Vice? ;)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, in RL, also.
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm, actually, new to SL.
Storm Nordwind: I see that from your birthday...
Archmage Atlantis: vyceratops was a great dinosaur
Lawrence Vyceratops: Haha
Storm Nordwind: but sometimes birthdays can be deceptive :)
Archmage Atlantis: Oncce thy ruled the earth with their laws
Storm Nordwind: I know very little about dinosaurs.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yeah, I don't know about the vyceratops...

I begin a conversation with Lawrence. What attracted him to PaB a second time?

Storm Nordwind: So Lawrence - you came once and still you came back! ;) There must have been something that interested you (?)
Lawrence Vyceratops: I enjoy talking to people who seem concerned with the state of things - human problems and such.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Not so concerned with ipods and touchscreens...
Storm Nordwind: wonderful :)
Archmage Atlantis: because , that and maybe....they are all L
Storm Nordwind: Some of us use these things as tools, but I for one have no obsession with them
Lawrence Vyceratops: Right, obsessed. Of course, tools are not something bad.
Storm Nordwind: They are mostly neutral, but they are sometimes designed not to be! :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes.

And what are his impressions of PaB itself so far?

Storm Nordwind: Did you get a chance to look at our Wiki, and find out about the 9 second practice?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I did.
Storm Nordwind: Good morning Widget
Widget Whiteberry: good morning
Archmage Atlantis: used not to be....they can also be used to be
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello, Widget.
Storm Nordwind: Did you come away with any particular impressions Lawrence? I'm interested because I may need to contribute to a content update, ensuring things are clear for example

Good honest answers - and subsequent questions, to which I try and give my own ideas in turn.

Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm still trying to figure it out... if there is something, aimed to be achieved from the practice.
Archmage Atlantis: Storm created these trees, the feet on the wisteria ... sometimes he snows us in
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: I think one way to look at that is to treat it as an experimental project Lawrence. A kind of "what would happen if". And then to share our findings with the rest of us here. People find some different things and some things in common.
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure I follow, completely...
Lawrence Vyceratops: What do you mean by, "what would happen if"?
Storm Nordwind: For example, you'll hear or read the idea that during the 9 seconds we can "drop what we have, in order to see what we are". What is left there when do that?
Storm Nordwind: And when we do do that, what effects does it have? How do we feel? What insights does it give us?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, but I think we do that all the time, perhaps, not realizing it.
Storm Nordwind: Can you say more about that? :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, like when you go to do a task, you sort of clear your mind, in order to complete the task.
Lawrence Vyceratops: You concentrate on it.
Archmage Atlantis: yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: You are not thinking of a bunch of different things.
Storm Nordwind: Do you find that clearing a relatively easy thing to do?
Lawrence Vyceratops: It seems...
Lawrence Vyceratops: I think we can make it complicated. :)
Archmage Atlantis: for us it was complicated
Archmage Atlantis: we had rules
Storm Nordwind: It seems that's a pragmatic approach! :)
Archmage Atlantis: none made sense

How about "starting at the end"?

Storm Nordwind: One of the ideas of Play as Being is "to start at the end". Did you read anything about that?
Lawrence Vyceratops: No. I tried to read some of the logs.
Lawrence Vyceratops: What's start at the end?
Storm Nordwind: The logs are very variable - we talk about the practice but we also talk about lots of (sometimes) related topics! ;)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, one I read seemed to be about the weather, I think?
Storm Nordwind: haha! hmmm yes ;)
Lawrence Vyceratops: :) haha
Storm Nordwind: It's unpredictable - like the weather I guess!
Storm Nordwind: Starting at the end...
Archmage Atlantis: The practice is a method of living
Storm Nordwind: let me suggest an example fo starting at the end...
Archmage Atlantis: one of many that are valid
Storm Nordwind: the name of the group is Play as Being and that gives us a simple illustration...
Storm Nordwind: So people might wonder what is "Being"...
Storm Nordwind: is it a state of awareness...
Storm Nordwind: is that what the group means? ...
Storm Nordwind: or does it refer to some abstract or real all-pervasive entity? ...
Storm Nordwind: or simply everything that "is"? ...
Storm Nordwind: so to find this out for ourselves...
Storm Nordwind: we experiment...
Storm Nordwind: we not only play at seeing what it's like simply to "be"...
Storm Nordwind: but we imagine, if there was such a thing, ...
Storm Nordwind: what it would be like to be Being...
Storm Nordwind: and we play with that notion, lightly, get a feel for it
Storm Nordwind: in a similar way that some meditation practices do
Storm Nordwind: Hard to do of course in just 9 seconds! ;)
Lawrence Vyceratops: I lost the part about the start at the end...
Storm Nordwind: It's like a short cut...
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: Hello Everyone :)
Storm Nordwind: because there are many practices that suggest to such a destination (of being Being) that you may want to take a step by step appraoch. Instead we started by saying "what would it be like if we were already at our destination?"
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello, Fael
Storm Nordwind: Hi Fael
Storm Nordwind: "How would it feel?"
Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, yes, I think I see what you are saying...
Fael Illyar: looks like SL doesn't want to rez me for myself... I'll relog. Brb
Lawrence Vyceratops: The obvious, right?
Lawrence Vyceratops: We are already being.

I draw a passing parallel to certain meditation practices (specifically, tantra, but I don't really want to get into discussing that if it's unfamiliar or irrelevant). We end up talking about Lawrence's view on meditation.

Storm Nordwind: yes... are you familiar with things like buddhist meditation? I ask because there is a parallel in certain techniques.
Lawrence Vyceratops: I suppose. Everyone has their own interpretations.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Interpretations as to what meditation is.
Storm Nordwind: I see. Of course. Do you have a working interpretation?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I suppose so. I see a couple different kinds...
Lawrence Vyceratops: I see one interpretation where I presume one is suppose to quieten the mind...
Lawrence Vyceratops: and one that is more contemplative.
Storm Nordwind: Interesting. Do you practise either of these?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I think we all do, naturally, perhaps, without realizing it.

Peaceful mind or quietened mind? And a peaceful world?

Storm Nordwind: Can I play devil's advocate for a moment then? ;) ...
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok.
Storm Nordwind: and suggest that if we all do a practice that quietens the mind, but without realizing it, wouldn't the wolrd be filled with happy peaceful people?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Why do you say that?
Archmage Atlantis: geez, i really dislike the phrase "devil's advocate"
Fael Illyar: Storm, that's assuming everyone would do it all the time :)
Storm Nordwind: Sure Fael! :)
Storm Nordwind: But I am playing devil's advocate here :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Why would the world be peaceful?
Storm Nordwind: Let me turn that round Lawrence. Why does the world appear to be unpeaceful to many people at the moment?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Because we are shouting, and fighting, and killing each other and we can see and feel that.
Archmage Atlantis: More important...why Should the world be peaceful?
Fael Illyar doesn't see anyone shouting, fighting or killing someone.
Storm Nordwind: Do you think that people who feel peaceful within themselves would be motivated to shout, fight, kill etc?
Lawrence Vyceratops: No, not here.
Archmage Atlantis: shout yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: But, how does quieting the mind for a moment make one peaceful?
Widget Whiteberry: Archmage?
Archmage Atlantis: fight perhaps
Lawrence Vyceratops: There has to be some kind of intention.
Archmage Atlantis: kill no, it is a law
Storm Nordwind: Ah... perhaps we are talking of slightly different things. I made an assumption - sorry...
Widget Whiteberry: I see people causing harm to others ....
Fael Illyar: (and to themselves)
Widget Whiteberry: that too, Fael
Storm Nordwind: So the ability to have a peaceful mind is perhaps what I meant. I had wrongly assumed you meant that with "quiet" Lawrence
--BELL--
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah, I'm sure quite a lot of confusion arises from those two understandings.
Lawrence Vyceratops: But what does it mean, to quieten the mind?
Storm Nordwind: That was your term... I was hoping you would explain! :))

There's meditation and meditation!

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I thought the practice was that, for 9 seconds, 90 seconds.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Are we talking about meditation?
Storm Nordwind: So many different kinds of meditation, or what people call meditation :) ...
Archmage Atlantis: i have a notecard to share
Widget Whiteberry nods to AM
Lawrence Vyceratops: Thank you.

This is a fascinating conversation but I'd like to hear other people's views as well.

Storm Nordwind: But for the 9 seconds practice, I would not necessarily use the term quieten the mind. Personally I would say a kind of friendly detachment from identifying with the thoughts that pass through the mind. Perhaps others would like to share their thoughts on that?
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, a kind of, watch the movements of the mind type of thing?
Widget Whiteberry: for me that friendly detachment is a time out from whatever emotions I attach to my thoughts
Widget Whiteberry: a kind of reset
Archmage Atlantis: Storm is a founder of this place
Storm Nordwind: Great description Widget! Thank you :)

Lawrence and I exchange views.

Lawrence Vyceratops: What happens, as I see it, is like when you ride in a car for a while, and then you come to a stop and you start to feel like you're rolling backwards.
Lawrence Vyceratops: It's like seeing a bright light and then looking away and seeing spots.
Storm Nordwind: I don't see it like that Lawrence, not like a zazen or vipissana kind of practice
Storm Nordwind: I see it as acknowledging that those things (including thoughts are there)...
Storm Nordwind: and then 'dropping' your attachment and identification with them...
Storm Nordwind: and seeing what ELSE is there
Storm Nordwind: What are you behind all that
Storm Nordwind: what IS there? :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Behind all identification?
Storm Nordwind: yes
Lawrence Vyceratops: Are you speaking of time?
Archmage Atlantis: do those words, from buddist thought, familiar to u Law?
Storm Nordwind: I wasn't (at the time!;) , but what would you like to say of time?

Two words that can cause trouble: "beyond" and "behind".

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm trying to understand the concept of "going beyond." That always gives me trouble.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Or seeing behind, as I've heard it put here.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Which words, Arch?
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps "beyond" would suggest a journey from where there isn't something to where there is. We are perhaps suggesting that there may be something worthwhile exploring right here and now, but dropping our attention to distractions might help us see the 'elephant in the room' that's already there
Lawrence Vyceratops: hold on... let me think about that...
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, the hindi tale of the blind men and the elephant
Storm Nordwind: no rush... we are here every 6 hours, day in, day out :))
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure what we are exploring...
--BELL--

Again, I'd like to hear others' views too.

Storm Nordwind: Perhaps a different voice than mine might be helpful :)
Fael Illyar: the nature of reality ... or perhaps the mind :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm not sure what is meant by "nature" either, at least not in a spiritual aspect. In a scientific aspect, I suppose it would be a recognizable pattern.
Lawrence Vyceratops: There is much I do not understand about spirituality, but I see that religion and spirituality seem to address very important issues.
Fael Illyar: PaB is not purely spiritual
Fael Illyar: nor purely scientific
Storm Nordwind: but I suggest it is very pragmatic!
Fael Illyar: Yes, quite pagmaic approach :)
Fael Illyar: pragmatic
Fael Illyar: my keyboard is eating my letters again :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles

Context could be important.

Lawrence Vyceratops: I think the biggest problem is context. It seems very important to be on the same ground, defining our terms and such.
Storm Nordwind: context is always important to understanding, I agree
Fael Illyar: yes, on this topic, getting the context to mach is ... perhaps the biggest part :)

Mulling over mulling!

Lawrence Vyceratops: So, what is meant by letting go of our attachments?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Are we meaning to not mull over the thoughts of them?
Storm Nordwind: That's my personal phraseology, and it comes from my buddhist background. I'm not speaking for others when I say that
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, we watch the movement of thought and feeling and perception in the mind as we sit quietly for 9 seconds or 90 seconds?
Storm Nordwind: You can do, if you choose. Some people do, yes.
Storm Nordwind: But coming back to PaB (the standard abbreviation for Play as Being here itseems) ...
Archmage Atlantis: ich bin ein berliner - did i say that grammatically?
Storm Nordwind: these might be your method to play with the experience of simply Being
Archmage Atlantis: It means to me the same as
Archmage Atlantis: We are the world
Storm Nordwind: and it would follow the meditation of certain of our Zen friends... though I do not do that :)
Storm Nordwind: If you choose to mull over thoughts, as I think you said, then can you do it whole heartedly and without distraction?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure what you mean...
Storm Nordwind: If instead, you simply choose to sit and be, can you watch thoughts arise and pass without following them while you sit and experience being?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I can do that.
Storm Nordwind: Then you are more fortunate than many to be able to do that naturally Lawrence. Blessed indeed. :)
Archmage Atlantis: I do not see a clouded mind, Storm
Lawrence Vyceratops: But, I don't see anything special in it.
Storm Nordwind: No... when something comes very naturally to us (and I can think of many things I can do from birth that are difficult for most people) we don't think they are special
Lawrence Vyceratops: I do think, however, that maybe some enjoy it, because it does have a sensation.

If we are peaceful, how can we tell? :)

Storm Nordwind: However, may I suggest an almost scientific test to see whether you really have the peacefulness of mind when you experience this?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok...
Widget Whiteberry pays close attention
Storm Nordwind: I'll just mention two things...
Archmage Atlantis: k i am also
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: time to go
Storm Nordwind: Firstly, check your physical body. When you are attuned to that peacefulness, the tension (if you have any) will start to drift from your body. (That's a fairly coarse indication, and not the best). Secondly, are you happy? Really! Because happiness spontaneously emerges from a peaceful mind. Always. If you can therefore always maintain a peaceful mind, you can always maintain a state of true happiness!
Archmage Atlantis: good luck with this
Storm Nordwind: Bye Arch
Fael Illyar: I need to go also. Have fun everyone :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye Fael
Widget Whiteberry: is there a third?
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps Widget! ;) But perhaps two are enough for now?
Widget Whiteberry: yes, a good start

But how about peace in the world?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I don't have a problem with that. I am more concerned with others, who are dividing and causing great conflict in the world.
Storm Nordwind: An understandable and laudable intention Lawrence!
Lawrence Vyceratops: As, I have divided, also, you see.
Widget Whiteberry: I will return ..
Lawrence Vyceratops: It is in the society, because it is in the individual.
Storm Nordwind: Bye Widget!
Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, Widget.
Storm Nordwind: Yes, I agree it is in the individual. If individuals change, then their societies change.

Any difference between "I" and "we"? If not, why not?

Storm Nordwind: What did you mean when you said: " I have divided, also"?
Lawrence Vyceratops: We divide when we belong to a group, or identify with an image.
Storm Nordwind: Sure. But you said "I" not "we" I believe?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I, we, not much difference.
Lawrence Vyceratops: People think we have personal experiences, but only superficially.
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps not to me, but I suspect there's a big difference between "I" and "we" for many people. Are you describing a particular philosophical viewpoint? Or a spiritual one?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I'm not sure... I suppose philosophical/scientific?...
Lawrence Vyceratops: For instance, you could take ten people from different parts of the world and put them together...
Lawrence Vyceratops: remove their skulls, and put their brains on a table...
Lawrence Vyceratops: They are all human brains and all function the same.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Body is the same way...
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, when you touch fire and I touch fire, we both burn the same, it is not a personal experience.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Similarly, when one loses a loved one and another does also, both experience sorrow, which is not personal, though it seems to be.

Can we be sure common experience really is common?

Storm Nordwind: Are you suggesting that our brains tap into a common 'something' that provides the experience?
Lawrence Vyceratops: What do you mean by "tap into"?
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: We experience things inside ourselves, do we not? I can in no way tell whether my experience is the same as yours when something happens to me. I can speculate, but I have no proof. So the only way that we could share something in common would be if there was something we could both access and know we experienced the same. Which is philosophically and scientifically tricky. Empirically it might be fine to say so, but no proof!
Lawrence Vyceratops: The experience may vary from person to person, and it is true that we can only experience ourselves (you can see and touch a tree, but cannot be a tree), but we are like machines - all built the same.
Storm Nordwind: Yet how does one person see something and find it attractive and pleasant, and another person find the same thing replusive? The object has no inherent goodness or badness it would seem. How does machine theory account for that?
Lawrence Vyceratops: That is what I meant by "superficial."
Lawrence Vyceratops: Superficial differences.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Is there a machine theory?
Storm Nordwind: It's a popular way of seeing things amongst some people. I don't know its actual name! :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah.

Fire is fire?

Lawrence Vyceratops: But, yes, it's like fire. Take two matches and strike them. Each have separate flames, but both are the "same" fire.
Storm Nordwind: If one was a magnesium flare instead, would they still be the same fire?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Provided, the matches are from the same box. ;)
Storm Nordwind: Ah ok!
Lawrence Vyceratops: back in 1.5 minutes...
Storm Nordwind: I will have to leave very soon actually
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok.
Storm Nordwind: The two fires may have the same qualities (or 'nature' as Fael said earlier), but are you considering them to be the same entity?
Lawrence Vyceratops: And the distinction is merely in the seperation in time and space?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, obviously, there is a distinction in the mind, between one fire and another.
Storm Nordwind: So what leads you to drop that separation? And potentially all other separations?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, the fact that the two fires are the same, or that two humans are the same, save for superficial differences.
Storm Nordwind: So it is, what you might feel is, a rational or logical deduction, rather than a result of some other practice?
--BELL--
Lawrence Vyceratops: Practice?
Storm Nordwind: I use the term very loosely! Could include anything that does not rely on linear or rational thought.

Does the same stimulus mean the same experience?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, when I touch fire, it seems to be a very personal experience; that is, to say, that it burns me and I feel that very intimately. However, when another is burned, surely, they experience the same pain. They respond similarly - they get away from the fire.
Storm Nordwind: Not necessarily
Lawrence Vyceratops: But the brain is designed the same.
Lawrence Vyceratops: As is the body.
Storm Nordwind: But the experience may be quite different
Lawrence Vyceratops: Sure, the superficial difference, which is, our likes and dislikes, our past personal experiences, and so on.
Storm Nordwind: More than that. It can hurt one and not the other. Even the same person in one lifetime. Take for instance the less burn of a chili pepper. I feel no pain with that now, though I did once, as a child. For some, that pain never mellows. For others it is not a burn to run away from even at the start. This is more than like or dislike surely?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, that is a tolerance that is built up to exposure. That would be a difference in experience, and also there are slight differences in each human body, but we all easily identify one another as human beings.
Lawrence Vyceratops: You would not call one of us a koala bear, unless metaphorically.
Storm Nordwind: I might call you a sentient being, whatever appearance you had. (Often a variable thing in Second Life!) :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok, so if we are sentient beings, we much have some things in common.
Lawrence Vyceratops: This identifies us as such.

So if there is commonality, how about the good stuff too?

Storm Nordwind: And how about the ability to be thoroughly peaceful and happy? If I can do it, how about everyone else? And why do they choose not to be? Is it simply that education is required?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Perhaps.
Lawrence Vyceratops: What can we do about that?
Storm Nordwind: If you know how, please teach people! :)
Storm Nordwind: And find ways to motivate them to listen :)
Storm Nordwind: And, of course, put into practice :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, that would be more productive than marking them up with tattoos! haha
Storm Nordwind missed the tattoo reference :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm a tattooer, by trade.
Storm Nordwind: Ah I see!

"Why do people not see things as I see them?"

Lawrence Vyceratops: Why are people not concerned with crises of the world?
Storm Nordwind: Why do you think?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I don't know. I talk to people every day and they seem so uninterested.
Storm Nordwind: Do you think perhaps they only have so much capacity to hurt on other people's behalf? Perhaps their attention is taken up by their own many woes?
Lawrence Vyceratops: People do tend to be concerned mainly with their own being...
Storm Nordwind: It is their world!
Lawrence Vyceratops: There doesn't seem to be much recognition of others, except what they see as themselves.
Lawrence Vyceratops: And, perhaps, it's that we don't see one another as we see ourselves.
--BELL--
Lawrence Vyceratops: Which, I think, is very similar.
Storm Nordwind: Most people don't even know how to solve their own problems. They haven't discovered or have not yet been taught. That kind of person (and i suspect they are in the majority) may naturally think "How could I help others when I can't even help myself?"
Storm Nordwind: It is not that these people are necessarily without compassion. It is that they are simply without the knowledge.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Communication, I think is a big problem. We each have our own concepts and understandings of concepts, it's very difficult to see eye-to-eye, or on the same ground.
Lawrence Vyceratops: If we could see more eye-to-eye, the knowledge would come more easily.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Too much confusion...

But with all that claimed commonality, how come?

Storm Nordwind: But, according to you, it should be easy to see eye-to-eye if the differences are only superficial (?)
Lawrence Vyceratops: It seems. haha ;)

We adjourn!

Lawrence Vyceratops: I have to go...
Lawrence Vyceratops: ...mark people up! :)
Storm Nordwind: OK. Delighted to chat with you. Please feel free to drop in another time
Lawrence Vyceratops: Thank you. I will.
Storm Nordwind: Wonderful. Bye for now!
Lawrence Vyceratops: Goodbye.
Storm Nordwind waves