2010.02.12 01:00 - Spinoff, or Belief in bad in oneself

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    Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session, in which I received some welcome and much-needed comfort and encouragement.


    Liza Deischer: hi wol
    Wol Euler: hello liza
    Liza Deischer: you're eh......different
    Wol Euler grins. Not dressed entirely in black, you mean?
    Liza Deischer: something like that
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Liza Deischer: but you're waiting for spring to set in
    Wol Euler: exactly.
    Wol Euler: it's still snowing and below zero here :(
    Liza Deischer: yes, about the same here
    Liza Deischer: not really snowing today, but still cold
    Liza Deischer: and there is still some snow on my window :-)
    Liza Deischer: how are you today?
    Wol Euler: pretty well, thnaks. More cheerful than last time we met
    Wol Euler: and yourself?
    Liza Deischer: that's good to hear
    Liza Deischer: yes, me too
    Wol Euler: retreats should come with a health advisory warning, and aftercare.
    Liza Deischer: ah
    Liza Deischer: you were suffering from some spinoff?
    Wol Euler: I was.
    Wol Euler: and am, but it is lessening
    Liza Deischer: it certainly can have that effect on you
    Wol Euler: part of the severity of the shock was that it was unexpected, and need not have been
    Wol Euler: hello calvino, star
    Liza Deischer: hi star, he cal
    Liza Deischer: what do you mean, need not have been
    Stargate Tone: hello Wol, Liza, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi all!
    Wol Euler: well, I think I would have been less deeply shocked and dismayed if I'd known that shock and dismay were possible results :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What is that, Wol?
    Wol Euler admires Calvino's "Bruce Willis" look
    Liza Deischer: ah, I understand
    Calvino Rabeni: :) hearts and all
    Wol Euler: well, I went into a bit of a tailspin after the retreat
    Wol Euler: and am slowly figuring out why, and dealing with it
    Wol Euler: it'll be interesting to see what hte others say on the 27th...
    Liza Deischer: yes, it will
    Liza Deischer: I don't think you're the only one
    Stargate Tone: may star be curious, what shall happen then ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you explain the Why in a nutshell what happens?
    Wol Euler: Star, ten of us met in Malta for a RL retreat two weeks ago. We each reported immediately after on what happened & what we felt there.
    Stargate Tone: *
    Wol Euler: And there will be a followup session, 2 hrs long, on the 27th where we report on what has happened *since* then
    Stargate Tone: *
    Wol Euler: Calvino, to answer your question briefly: I fell into a nearly bottomless pit of self-loathing and despair.
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Sorry
    Wol Euler: something to do with waking from a state of cognitive dissonance, I think.
    Liza Deischer: yes, you probably opened up something
    Wol Euler grins and nods ruefully
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, it has caused you to dress more colorfully :)
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Wol Euler: the outfit is an excuse to wear this hat, which I love dearly.
    Wol Euler: makes me feel like Audrey Hepburn
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Liza Deischer: :-)


    Stargate Tone: there's often this phrase on the path of opening/enlightment, in which the fear to know more rises...
    Stargate Tone: it truly would be good for one then to remember, that all one has forgottan, one has made own choice to do so
    Wol Euler nods
    Stargate Tone: when strong (old) spirits meet, they always strengthen more the knowledge of each other's spirit....


    Gaya and Bertram had both said (in e-mail) that they knew of others who had had the same experience after a retreat, so I asked the group. 

    Wol Euler: may I ask you more experienced retreatists: did anyhting like this happen to you?
    Liza Deischer: oh yes
    Wol Euler: say more?
    Liza Deischer: yest I'm trying too, but need to remember it
    Liza Deischer: because sometimes you forget about the really rough parts
    Liza Deischer: later on I mean
    Stargate Tone: oh gosh...
    Liza Deischer: but as I remember it
    Liza Deischer: it can go bothways
    Stargate Tone: now star starts to look for her inventory....
    Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to remember the specifics of it, emotionally
    Liza Deischer: but I always needed time to 'recover'
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I can recall that
    Liza Deischer: because things are happening on a level that is 'hard to get'
    Stargate Tone: hm
    Stargate Tone: feels like you was talking now of the 'Forssträm syndroma'....
    Liza Deischer: and probably you shouldn't be trying to do so
    Stargate Tone: somebody wanna know what that is ?
    Liza Deischer: I don't know that syndorma
    Wol Euler: please, google doesn't help
    Stargate Tone: ah sure it does not, as it's named after my friend, who's go that huge strongly; the 'exellent example' of that....
    Wol Euler: aaaah :)
    Stargate Tone: the issue is this;
    Stargate Tone: 'belief in bad in oneself'
    Stargate Tone: such people who sees aura, has teached me to understand that,,,as so many of them has got frightened seing me the first time
    Stargate Tone: and I've been curious that why
    Stargate Tone: as they have seen how I see
    Stargate Tone: and got scared that I 'find' the bad in them....
    Stargate Tone: so...that is syndroma, cuz specially such people, who's got no reason to think so
    Stargate Tone: feels that
    Stargate Tone: like to you Wol; it 'fits' very well
    Stargate Tone: cuz your so beautiful person too


    A nice interweaving of related ideas.

    Liza Deischer: I think there can be another reason
    Liza Deischer: and maybe that refers to your story Star
    Stargate Tone: sure...but this is one
    Liza Deischer: but opening up things, means we start to stare ourselfs right in the face
    Liza Deischer: we try to cover up things during the day
    Wol Euler nods.
    Liza Deischer: but taking time and just sitting down gives us a glimps of what we are struggeling with
    Stargate Tone: normally that's urgent to do/happen
    Calvino Rabeni: The basic thing - the illusion of the self is that it has things under control
    Liza Deischer: and we all have fear in us
    Stargate Tone: that's to be human being...
    Calvino Rabeni: mostly by not seeing
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: and to take the lid off shows a great vulnerability
    Liza Deischer: that in the end refers to be afraid of life itself
    Calvino Rabeni: And even positive experiences can open things up
    Stargate Tone: and all them fears we know, we can deal with; those are them probs that we r not aware
    Liza Deischer: yes Cal
    Liza Deischer: as I have esperienced lately :-
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The fear of not being able to "source" one's own positive experience
    Liza Deischer: I think that too Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps a lot does come from "grace"
    Liza Deischer: gives another perspective
    Calvino Rabeni: but some is self generated
    Calvino Rabeni: And people are not "fair" with their self assessment
    Liza Deischer: true


    Liza Deischer: it also gives room to patterns you're holding on to
    Stargate Tone: well...what star searched from her inventory...found now...
    Liza Deischer: or better: it breaks those paterns down
    Stargate Tone: as there is this Johny who often takes part to the Hikari meeting....
    Stargate Tone: and with him we went through such conversation that I asked if I may 'use'...'quote'....
    Stargate Tone: cuz it was so meaningfull
    Stargate Tone: may I now copy and paste that to you here ?
    Liza Deischer: sure
    Stargate Tone: ok
    Wol Euler: um, no
    Wol Euler: send it to us as a notecard
    Wol Euler: we should not publish it without his permission!
    Stargate Tone: ok; so shall tell a bit backround
    Liza Deischer: true
    Stargate Tone: ah; I asked his permission, but good thing wol
    Stargate Tone: so; he's just a bit backround before you read the note card
    Stargate Tone: as that had been chat (partly joking) that if Johny would need to buy the rat as the pet to get enlightened
    Stargate Tone: as this Johny is enlightened :)***
    Stargate Tone: ok: shall give the note card to you now
    Stargate Tone: it's 'uncleaned'....that's why I thought if to copy and paste the essential


    Another visitor arrives while we read. 

    Wol Euler: hello sitar, have you been here before?
    Sitar Ishelwood: yes, thanks wol, i remember your profile
    Wol Euler: ok, sorry :)
    Sitar Ishelwood: its ok, you're still a good dog
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember Sitar
    Sitar Ishelwood: hi calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello
    Liza Deischer: hi Sitar
    Sitar Ishelwood: hi liza, and good to see you star
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Stargate Tone: good to see you too
    Sitar Ishelwood: is there a topic?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes a positive experience can have an emotional backlash, I recall from the past
    Stargate Tone: might we've been speaking of fear to know more and of human mind's skill to forget
    Wol Euler: yes, specifically the despair that can follow from a good retreat experience
    Calvino Rabeni: And sometimes I found it about making comparisons between myself and others
    Sitar Ishelwood: wow alot of stuff. my question is
    Calvino Rabeni: Comparing their strengths with my weaknesses - rather unfair :)
    Sitar Ishelwood: is the retreat causal?
    Wol Euler: true, calvino.
    Stargate Tone: ah well...that's also the way of thinking...that what one takes to be weakness...


    An interesting thought from Calvino, worth meditating on in a future session. 

    Calvino Rabeni: Being more truly "seen" can be challenging too, even if it appears to be with unconditional positive regard on the side of others
    Sitar Ishelwood: of course
    Calvino Rabeni: Today at a workshop I played with this in a small way, and noticed the tendencies at work
    Wol Euler: seeing others' lifestyles can be revealing too. One lives mostly in a fog of habit and convenience, so many things go unnoticed even while we think we are being observant
    Wol Euler: say more?
    Calvino Rabeni: These situations may go fishing in my unconscious - may catch an eel, probably not a whale
    Liza Deischer: :-) yes
    Sitar Ishelwood: yes, and i believe this is why retreat is important
    Calvino Rabeni: One exercise, is, your partner tells you, everything positive and true and "appreciating the appearance of you"
    Calvino Rabeni: and you listen and take it in
    Calvino Rabeni: simple
    Calvino Rabeni: and the facilitator asked - well how was it to hear all that appreciation
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people found it hard - they said - no that's not how it is :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It connected with their low feelings about self
    Calvino Rabeni: or they resisted the appreciation because it might do that
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Stargate Tone: (fear to be healed)



    Liza Deischer: we missed an important word today
    Wol Euler: all change provokes fear, even good changes :)
    Liza Deischer: and that is compassion
    Calvino Rabeni: I have done a fair amount of "shadow work", and I think because of this, I accept the appreciations
    Calvino Rabeni: and enjoy them, and the facilitator said it indicated a self-esteem
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Sitar Ishelwood: the graciousness and humility of just smiling and saying thanks is so important, and such good practice
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it was a great workshop to practice that - appreciation and gratitude
    Sitar Ishelwood: and now that i know, that is the skillful action, i can just do it, and the self appreciation follows
    Sitar Ishelwood: from the body in, rather than from the mind out
    Calvino Rabeni: It is different than "positive thinking" or "pep talk" yes
    Stargate Tone: star need to go quickly...but wanna 'leave' these words still,,,as I've often have asked the person to thank her/himself for her/his choices, cuz they make the base to one to be what one is
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Stargate Tone: wishing good time to all
    Wol Euler: thank you star, take care
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Liza Deischer: thanks star
    Stargate Tone: love you all
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_
    Liza Deischer: see you
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Sitar Ishelwood: namaste
    Stargate Tone: _/|\_


    Being taught to modestly turn aside praise.

    Wol Euler: y'know, I think I remember as a child being taught the opposite of that, calvino. I am sure I was taught to say "no, it was nothing special" when complimented
    Liza Deischer: as a lady should do :-)
    Wol Euler: right.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, "don't let it go to your head"
    Sitar Ishelwood: ah, the trouble with being born to unenlightened parents
    Wol Euler giggles
    Calvino Rabeni: and in unenlightened society
    Sitar Ishelwood: good thing we get a chance to parent ourselves now
    Sitar Ishelwood: bingo!


    Calvino is on a roll: a third wonderful sentence starts us on the effect of our parents.

    Wol Euler: we (society) had such fear of individuality then, I think
    Calvino Rabeni: it's never too late to have a happy childhood
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Sitar Ishelwood: good people my folks, but not buddhas
    Wol Euler: Cal, what a marvellous statement.
    Wol Euler: that may be our title :)   // but alas, it was not to be.
    Calvino Rabeni: There was a period of "blaming parents" - luckily passed
    Calvino Rabeni: It used to be a fashion I think :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And there are levels and more of it
    Calvino Rabeni: The "positive shadow" is harder to shake
    Liza Deischer: or the first symptoms of understanding that you get molded i a way
    Sitar Ishelwood: well, there are still some negative patterns that run in our minds, that have been passed down for generations
    Liza Deischer: then takig up responsibility for yourself
    Calvino Rabeni: Because positive shadow does not seem like a suffering and negative emotion
    Sitar Ishelwood: coming back to compassion, what i've found helps alot, is knowing that my parents suffered greatly from the same issues
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is said, you don't really "have yourself" while your parents are alive
    Liza Deischer: true cal, it is the poison of attraction


    Wol Euler smiles at the collection of wisdom in these last lines.
    Calvino Rabeni: Children naturally respect their parents - it is hard for them to "surpass" them
    Wol Euler: and hard to be surpassed too.
    Wol Euler: takes a great spirit to welcome that when it happens
    Wol Euler: phone, brb
    Calvino Rabeni: except around obviously broken things of course
    Calvino Rabeni: But we "imprint" on parents
    Liza Deischer: but when that happens, you're in big trouble
    Calvino Rabeni: and the early learning is all about that imprint
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a deeper learning than study or thinking
    Sitar Ishelwood: and we emulate their behavior in an attempt to fit in and gain love
    Liza Deischer: because you need to be loved as a child for even being able to live
    Sitar Ishelwood: the need for love is very strong
    Sitar Ishelwood: i agree liza
    Calvino Rabeni: not just for that - we emulate because this is the powerful model of what it is to be human
    Sitar Ishelwood: love is the key
    Calvino Rabeni: it is not for gain or for anything
    Calvino Rabeni: it is just because this is the appearance of humanity
    Liza Deischer: actually meaning that cal
    Sitar Ishelwood: does survival count as gain?
    Wol Euler: back
    Calvino Rabeni: they are the form of it - like a god image to a child
    Calvino Rabeni: it is deeper than survival, since a child has an innocent mind driven by love
    Liza Deischer: I guess it depends on the survival :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: and it works on a level that is not problematical
    Calvino Rabeni: at the beginning, before the distresses and illusions start to be created
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe some are fundamental, but lots are learned
    Liza Deischer: or get formed, because I think they are alreadt there
    Liza Deischer: for a part
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: my sister wanted to be a child psychologist, her first internship drove that from her mind
    Liza Deischer: but could be taken with you form previous lives
    Calvino Rabeni: your grandparents and ancestors soul materials are imprinted on you when very young and unaware
    Liza Deischer: that is if you believe that
    Sitar Ishelwood: soul materials?
    Wol Euler: when she saw that in 99.3% of cases it was the parents that needed therapy, not the kid, but she wasn't allowed to say that
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I mean their strengths, weaknesses, character
    Sitar Ishelwood: and that just comes in through the cosmos?
    Calvino Rabeni: A kind of karma perhaps - dunno I'm not buddhist - but it is experiences taken from the lives of the ancestors
    Liza Deischer: that;s very sad wol
    Liza Deischer: that's how it looks like (that is for me)
    Wol Euler: perhaps; she would have been very good at it. But she is happier than she would have been.
    Sitar Ishelwood: yup, my mom works with l.d. kids, and she says its like that all the time


    Addiction and families.

    Calvino Rabeni: The child is scapegoat - and a misguided attempt to be a healer
    Liza Deischer: somtimes you can't fight the system
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't know if europe has the A A 12-step addiction treatment groups?
    Calvino Rabeni: But they are getting wiser too
    Sitar Ishelwood: they are all over the world
    Wol Euler: calvino, i agree with your comment about the presence of our grandparents in our lives, imprinted early on. Certainly true for me
    Liza Deischer: not really
    Calvino Rabeni: And dealing with the teenagers who have addictions
    Liza Deischer: i mean the aa 12 steps
    Wol Euler: AA is in germany, yes, and I think they'd have the same program
    Liza Deischer: I know them, because I've been there
    Calvino Rabeni: the parents can't "fix" them, unless they attend the meetings themselves in a devoted fashion
    Liza Deischer: but it is not as common as in the states
    Calvino Rabeni: and then they will learn their "part" of it
    Wol Euler nods.
    Calvino Rabeni: The common wisdom is, "the parents always relapse first"
    Calvino Rabeni: in terms of falling back into the pattern that leads to addiction
    Sitar Ishelwood: ive never heard that
    Wol Euler: my dears, I must go, work is calling (literally :(
    Calvino Rabeni: The parents experience a healing
    Wol Euler: please continue, this is a fascinating discussion and I hope you will continue it!
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care - be well :)
    Liza Deischer: bye wol
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Sitar Ishelwood: yes, its been fun, thank you
    Liza Deischer: and thanks for sharing
    Wol Euler: I look forward to reading hte rest of hte log
    Wol Euler: thank you for your help and encouragement this morning, I needed it
    Liza Deischer: wel me too, because I'm going too
    Wol Euler: bye for now
    Liza Deischer: bye
    Liza Deischer: see you
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: I suppose I'll go now also


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