2010.02.12 07:00 - Fault Lines and Illusions

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    Zen and I chatted about cold remedies, illusions, belief, and fault-consciousness. :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Like your tag ;-)
    Zen Arado: I am lazy with tags - I ust have the last one that I used
    Zen Arado: how are you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Quite Well, thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: You?
    Zen Arado: I have a cold
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, bummer
    Zen Arado: so a bit tired and headachy
    Zen Arado: but nearly over I think
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, good. When I feel a cold coming on, a few times a day I drink a certain concoction
    Zen Arado: I am finding I lose so much energy when I have a cold now
    Zen Arado: what's that?
    Eliza Madrigal: orange juice + water + emergen-C (usually raspberry)...
    Eliza Madrigal: Also, ginger ale and ginger tea :)
    Eliza Madrigal: ginger is anti-inflammatory
    Zen Arado: might help - at least the placebo effect might
    Eliza Madrigal: so helps the body's natural capabilities to work smoothly
    Zen Arado: tried some hot wkiskey but no effect
    Eliza Madrigal: Usually the best thing is sleep :)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: let your body fight it
    Eliza Madrigal nods

    From dreams, to fear, to illusions...

    Eliza Madrigal: flu dreams are often quite interesting for some reason, too...
    Zen Arado: you still get colds in Florida?
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe because your body is truly just 'off'
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, of course
    Zen Arado: those kind of dreams can be very bad too!
    Eliza Madrigal: well, if bad they are still interesting...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: I got a kind of panic attack the other night
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh... no fun
    Eliza Madrigal: during sleep?
    Zen Arado: yes and when I woke up at about 3am
    Zen Arado: hard to describe
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes that is a sugar dive... (hah, guess I'm in medical mode this morning)
    Eliza Madrigal: or sometimes one is driving over a flimsy bridge!
    Eliza Madrigal: hah
    Zen Arado: I worry I won't be able to get up
    Eliza Madrigal: that sounds frightening
    Zen Arado: makes you feel so helpless
    Zen Arado: that's why I don't want to get flu in case it weakens me
    Eliza Madrigal: worrying about the flu may weaken one too

    Meditation helps with this...

    Zen Arado: meditation helps with this
    Eliza Madrigal: does it?
    Zen Arado: it helps with nightmares too - you know it is only thoughts
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Zen Arado: helps me get over them quicker
    Eliza Madrigal: do you have nightmares often?
    Zen Arado: no - pretty rarely
    Zen Arado: thank fully
    Eliza Madrigal: yes me too.. even the darker dreams don't really seem like nightmares...
    Eliza Madrigal: there isn't 'fear' in them
    Eliza Madrigal: prob. a result of meditation practice... you're right
    Zen Arado: we confront our fears more often than others maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm told there is a point where one doesn't really dream... where dreams and so-called 'waking life'
    Zen Arado: I'm generalizing again :)
    Eliza Madrigal: are kind of open and blended
    Zen Arado: it's all a kind of dream I guess
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and yet it is and sounds silly to say things are just illusions, too
    Zen Arado: are problems illusions?
    Zen Arado: we were talking about this before
    Eliza Madrigal: because well, if all things are illusions, then what are illusions...
    Zen Arado: hmmmmm....
    Eliza Madrigal: and if all things are doorways what are doorways...
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: keeps unfolding
    Zen Arado: assumes some things are 'real'
    Zen Arado: you know this issue in philosophy?
    Eliza Madrigal: the challenge is that we are responsible to work 'with' things
    Eliza Madrigal: go on?
    Zen Arado: realism vs anti -realism
    Eliza Madrigal: (if we are real and working with fantasy/illusion, then there is no connection... also visa versa)
    Zen Arado: some assume there is an objective reality out there
    Zen Arado: others say we create our own reality
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... the first time someone said that to me, I was in a treehouse... I still remember it....
    Eliza Madrigal: I was 16
    Zen Arado: but there is a scale between the two
    Zen Arado: I am somewhere closer to the anti realist view
    Zen Arado: everyone's 'reality' is different
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm closer to a 'both' view... almost always
    Zen Arado: Buddhism tends to anti realism I think
    Eliza Madrigal: I remember when my friend said to me "you create your own reality" I thought, "Wow... yes!"...and... "No"
    Eliza Madrigal: meaning little 'you' can't really create anything... can it?
    Eliza Madrigal: someone described buddhism as mystical atheism just the other day, and I felt the same
    Zen Arado: think of a painting - you reconstruct a landscape out of little daubs of paint
    Zen Arado: I don't like that label 'atheism'
    Eliza Madrigal: or hm... does the space construct it?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I know where he was coming from, because he'd been asked a question framed in terms of 'belief'
    Zen Arado: but your brain creates a 3D landscape that isn't there
    Eliza Madrigal: however it sparked a clarification
    Zen Arado: on a 2D flat surface
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I see what you are saying
    Eliza Madrigal: dimension
    Eliza Madrigal: the dimension is 'given by' the painter?
    Zen Arado: and we take that for granted because we have been conditioned to do it
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: the painter is conditioned how to create the illusion
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Zen Arado: aerial perspective etc
    Eliza Madrigal: or to be a vehicle for the illusion
    Zen Arado: making hills blue and figures in the foreground larger
    Eliza Madrigal: I dabble in modern art sometimes..functional sculpture. One thing I made is a magnetic 'field of infinite possibilities' board for the kids to stick things too... fortune cookies, poems, etc... events, dreams :)
    Zen Arado: so we do the same when we reconstruct the infromation received by our eyes about what is out there
    Zen Arado: interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes that's completely fascinating... how our mechanics work to interpret, form... get ahold of things

    Noticing general thinking...

    Zen Arado: I am sensitive to how much I prefer generalities lately
    Eliza Madrigal: judgements?
    Eliza Madrigal: like 'this is bad, that is good" ?
    Zen Arado: no- just talking about gthings in general instead of specifics
    Eliza Madrigal: hm
    Eliza Madrigal: I guess I do too... try to cast a wide net
    Zen Arado: how everyone or we do things instead of how I do things
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh
    Zen Arado: it's safer :)
    Eliza Madrigal: well, what goes on generally gives us pointers as to what we're doing... AND visa versa
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: also a way to avoid thinking of our own faults maybe
    Zen Arado: you see?
    Zen Arado: generalising again :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: Most people are all too aware of their faults...
    Zen Arado: hmmm...not so sure of that Eliza
    Zen Arado: we hide them from ourselves and notice them in others
    Zen Arado: project them to others
    Eliza Madrigal: if aware of faults/weaknesses/etc but no real feel of being able to address them, then that seems how to be 'stuck'
    Zen Arado: good way to find your own defects is to notice what you don't like in others I think
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I do agree there...
    Zen Arado: phone sec
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes dealing with someone 'what IS IT that is bothering me here?"
    Zen Arado: wrong number :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: that question usually brings me back to impatience
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm trying to get somewhere... and they aren't going....
    Eliza Madrigal: or aren't going fast enough...
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Zen Arado: yes me too
    Zen Arado: impatience with myself too
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
    Zen Arado: not getting enough done
    Zen Arado: as if it matters much...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, why am I fretting over not going faster.... because I feel inadequate to 'make up' for something

    Funny when things come up again so clearly...

    Zen Arado: but maybe we are blind to our worst faults
    Zen Arado: we should ask others...
    Eliza Madrigal: Did you see the chat log about "How do I present?"
    Zen Arado: no?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh... we talked about bindspots a bit...
    Zen Arado: ok I'll check it
    Zen Arado: so many logs.....
    Eliza Madrigal: and about an exercize Storm did which is just that question you asked...
    Eliza Madrigal: what are others seeing?
    Zen Arado: good
    Zen Arado: scary to ask others to tell us our faults ..
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, you don't just ask anyone :)
    Zen Arado: pandora's box :)
    Eliza Madrigal: If I go to my friend who is perfectionistic/micro-managing about her house and kids, and ask her what my faults are, she will probably tell me I'm not perfectionistic/micro-managing enough with my house and kids :)
    Zen Arado: ha ha yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Zen Arado: you want YOUR faults not hers!
    Zen Arado: see a danger there
    Eliza Madrigal giggles... I donno... some things I considered weaknesses for a long time, turned out to be strengths....
    Eliza Madrigal: so what do I know? :)
    Zen Arado: maybe should just for get this and do our best with what comes up
    Eliza Madrigal: YES
    Eliza Madrigal: That's just it :)
    Zen Arado: there is a right time for these things
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... and now I'm off to lunch with my perfectionistic friend. Heh, wish me luck :)
    Zen Arado: a time when we can face them
    Zen Arado: ok don't ask her whatever you do!
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    Eliza Madrigal: I may have to now...
    Eliza Madrigal: just for fun
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: C you later Zen :)
    Zen Arado: you too
    Zen Arado: bye

    Note that my friend and I did not discuss faults. :) We were joined by two other friends, and discussed Authenticity. :) 

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