2010.02.15 13:00 - Bulshytte (cushions and stories and love)

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.


    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey aga,liza

    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Yaku :)

    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Liza

    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku, Agatha

    Agatha Macbeth: Good, I didn't sit on anyone

    Liza Deischer: hi Cal

    Liza Deischer: hi Mick

    Agatha Macbeth: Here he is!

    Agatha Macbeth: Heya Mick

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick

    Mickorod Renard: Hiyaaaa

    Calvino Rabeni: The Men In Black

    Agatha Macbeth: And Cal too

    Mickorod Renard: dont worry, i am here

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: Hiya Mick

    Agatha Macbeth: Who's worried? :)

    Mickorod Renard: I bet u thought u would have to be guardian

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not black, it's my soul that shines through everything

    Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa,,well said Yaku

    Agatha Macbeth: For sure Yaku :)

    Liza Deischer: ah, that's what I feel :-)

    Mickorod Renard: so,,has everyone had a nice day?

    Agatha Macbeth: No complaints.....yet

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Mickorod Renard: I am on school hols

    Agatha Macbeth: Lucky you

    Mickorod Renard: although went in today to catch up

    Mickorod Renard: much better without kids

    Mickorod Renard: I have been exploring the method of not buying into stories

    Liza Deischer: ?

    Agatha Macbeth: Any particular stories?

    Mickorod Renard: are you all familiar with that idea?

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes

    Liza Deischer: ah, sorry, didn't understand, do now

    Mickorod Renard: well,,you know the sort where in life you are expected to get caught up in other peoples issues

    Zon Quar: hello all

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Zon

    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, them

    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zon

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zon

    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I thought you meant your stories

    Liza Deischer: hi Zon

    Mickorod Renard: them too

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Laurence

    Liza Deischer: hi lawrence

    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Mr Triceratops :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey lawrence

    Mickorod Renard: are you new here Laurence?

    Mickorod Renard: Lawrence

    Calvino Rabeni: I will vouch for Lawrence

    Mickorod Renard: ok thanks Cal

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello, everyone :) I've attended several meetings so far.

    Mickorod Renard: great,,thanks

    Agatha Macbeth: (He doesn't look like a dinosaur)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: But, if you look inside our skulls, you see something similar to a dinosaur. ;)

    Mickorod Renard: appearances can be deceptive

    Calvino Rabeni: Has, I think, a dragon peering out

    Agatha Macbeth: Ooooh!

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Our brains are very old :)

    Calvino Rabeni: :) Dragon gets the "oooh!" of approval

    Agatha Macbeth: Some of us more than others! ;-)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, we pretty much all have the same brain here. Only slightly different from that bird's.

    Agatha Macbeth: Which bird? Me?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, scientists say :)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: haha the whistling one. :)

    Agatha Macbeth: Oh

    Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, and not designed to do anything other than hunt, eat, sleep, reproduce, etc. :)

    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's a thrush

    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, what are we hunting today? ;)

    Agatha Macbeth: Good question!

    Calvino Rabeni: Caught a dragon, so far.

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Was that the intention? ;)

    Calvino Rabeni: No just blind luck

    Agatha Macbeth: There is no such thing as luck, young Jedi

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Use the force, Luke! I love Star Wars.

    Calvino Rabeni: Do, or do not. There is no try.

    arabella Ella: Hiya

    Agatha Macbeth: Don't we all? :)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hiya, arabella

    Zon Quar: hi ara ã‹¡

    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :)

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Ara

    Liza Deischer: hi Ara


    Agatha Macbeth: (Ah, the bespectacled beauty :))

    Calvino Rabeni: The candidate topic as I recall was "stories" of a certain variety. And then it got competition from "what is this primitive brain thing?"

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara

    Lawrence Vyceratops: What was being discussed of "stories?"

    Agatha Macbeth: What stories do we mean Mick?

    Bertram Jacobus: hello all ... :-)

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I was wonderin if anyone else practices the not buying into method?

    Liza Deischer: hi Bert

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hey, Bertram.

    Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Berti :)

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Bert

    Zon Quar: bert

    arabella Ella: Hiya Bertram

    Liza Deischer: trying :-)

    Mickorod Renard: I am becvoming mnuch better at it now

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Not buying into method?

    Agatha Macbeth: What, typing?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Hey, Zen.

    arabella Ella: what method Mick?

    Mickorod Renard: nooo

    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zen

    Liza Deischer: hi Zen

    Zon Quar: hi zen

    Zen Arado: Hi all

    Bertram Jacobus: hi zen :-9

    arabella Ella: Hiya Zen

    Mickorod Renard: the method of not buying into crap when its presented to you,,as in this is crap life come join

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen

    Lawrence Vyceratops: You mean, being skeptical?

    Calvino Rabeni: Ah that kind of story

    Mickorod Renard: :)

    Mickorod Renard: yes

    Agatha Macbeth: Still not with you Mick....

    Mickorod Renard: it happens all the time

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,

    Agatha Macbeth: Oh, I see

    arabella Ella: crap as in investments, changing providers or pyramid schemes?

    Mickorod Renard: let me start again

    Agatha Macbeth: You mean buulshit?

    Agatha Macbeth: Bullshit even

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,you get to work and all of a sudden you hear all sorts of rubbish and things to get worked up about

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, an everyday thing...

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,bull shytte sort of covers some

    Agatha Macbeth: Uh huh

    Mickorod Renard: yes

    Mickorod Renard: but then,,often we get drawn into it

    Mickorod Renard: but we have an option

    Mickorod Renard: we can say to ourselves,,hold on,,this is bull shyyte

    Lawrence Vyceratops: It's easy to get drawn in...

    Calvino Rabeni: Well I have a fondness for stories

    Zen Arado: any examoles?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Or we can be skeptical of it, perhaps?

    Calvino Rabeni: I like to get drawn in

    Agatha Macbeth: That's a good examole :)

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,drawn in is ok if you can play with it

    Calvino Rabeni: but I know the method you're talking about

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, for fun

    Zen Arado: examples :)

    Agatha Macbeth: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: i like emoles, too !

    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, you are saying, just to call it bullshit, before examining it?

    Mickorod Renard: keeping your own story line is important

    Agatha Macbeth: And garden moles ;-)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Guilty until proven innocent?

    Agatha Macbeth: Who is?

    Bertram Jacobus: hm. not sure

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok, I'm not following the story part of this...

    Agatha Macbeth: Give it time Laz....

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I was thinking that there are options trather than blind panic

    arabella Ella: yes how does the story come in to this?

    Bertram Jacobus: laz mole

    Agatha Macbeth: Him too

    Mickorod Renard: I give up,,maybe Cal can describe it better

    Agatha Macbeth: Elias Ash-mole?

    Zen Arado: I am a mole and I live in a hole

    Agatha Macbeth: On the dole

    Calvino Rabeni: if you have the freedom to move in and out of the story, you can play with it if you like

    Lawrence Vyceratops: We can take it slow, step by step...

    Mickorod Renard: or we cud talk about dino's

    Agatha Macbeth: Dino's what?

    arabella Ella: or Limos

    Calvino Rabeni: That can enliven people who seem to feel stuck in it

    Mickorod Renard: saurus

    Agatha Macbeth: Worcester saurus?

    Calvino Rabeni: Slow is good

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Wait.... I'm not caught up with the story part of this calling everything bullshit thingy...

    Bertram Jacobus: zon is sleeping

    Agatha Macbeth: You are?

    Zen Arado: we sure love our stories

    Agatha Macbeth: Are we speaking of a specific story Mick?

    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes we hate them

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I'm not clear on the "story" thing.

    Zen Arado: this is my story and you have to listen to it....

    Zen Arado: it is so tragic......

    Bertram Jacobus: or a joke

    Mickorod Renard: any old story in life that we get drawn into,,and maybe later regret getting involved in

    Zen Arado: we love the drama.....

    Calvino Rabeni: Remember, all the world's a stage

    Agatha Macbeth: You you're not speaking of a specific example?

    Mickorod Renard: no

    Calvino Rabeni: A specific example would be instructive

    Agatha Macbeth: Ah

    Bertram Jacobus: i prefere joy zen

    Lawrence Vyceratops: You mean story as in, I got to work, there is drama, that line of drama, whether it be an issue with someone or some group, you mean getting drawn into that kind of "story?"

    Zen Arado: or an examole

    Agatha Macbeth: I prefer Joy Division

    Calvino Rabeni: Law, I think that's kind of what Mick meant

    Agatha Macbeth: Shut up about moles already! :)

    Mickorod Renard: that sounds pretty good

    Bertram Jacobus: i'll youtube it now agatha

    Agatha Macbeth: What?

    Zen Arado: :)

    Mickorod Renard: the lawrence version

    Agatha Macbeth: TE Lawrence?

    Zen Arado: DH?

    Mickorod Renard: of arabia

    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, we are saying that when we get into a situation, there is a method whereby we assume that it is bullshit?

    Agatha Macbeth: That's the one ;-)

    Zen Arado: skepticism means you never really believe anything

    Zen Arado: I think

    Mickorod Renard: well,,we dont have to believe its bulshytte,,but we also dont need to think we have to become entangled in it

    Agatha Macbeth: Kinda

    Liza Deischer: you're turning it upside down Lawrence :-)

    Agatha Macbeth: stands on her head

    Lawrence Vyceratops: haha I'm just trying to see what is meant. :)

    Bertram Jacobus: scepticism is only the contrary of credulousness

    Calvino Rabeni: I think the method was more about the idea to not identify with being compelled to be a character in exactly the way proposed by the story


    Agatha Macbeth: Shhhhhhhhhhhh!

    Mickorod Renard: some sort of calm and seperate viewing of it is prefered I think

    Mickorod Renard: shhhhhh

    Agatha Macbeth: Shhhhhhhhhhhh! I said!

    Zon Quar: waves....

    Mickorod Renard: sh

    Agatha Macbeth: sighs and rolls eyes

    Lawrence Vyceratops: That bell.... it means something....

    Lawrence Vyceratops: How far have we gotten on this?

    Agatha Macbeth: Why does a psychic need a doorbell?

    Mickorod Renard: dont get too involved in the bell Lawrence

    Zen Arado: don't know

    Mickorod Renard: its only a sound

    Lawrence Vyceratops: just joking around ;)

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Bertram Jacobus: pab practise

    Lawrence Vyceratops: haha Yeah.

    Agatha Macbeth: But if nobody hears it does it make a noise?

    Zen Arado: no

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,u can imagine the sound

    Agatha Macbeth: Fair enough

    Lawrence Vyceratops: If my speakers are on...

    Agatha Macbeth: What if they're muted?

    Zen Arado: no hearer = no sound

    Mickorod Renard: mine are off,,but I still see the sound

    Agatha Macbeth: You do?

    Bertram Jacobus: i'm not sure about that zen

    Agatha Macbeth: Must be at a funny wavelength

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,it goes,,,BELLLLLLLLLLLLLL

    Agatha Macbeth: No, that was Quazimodo

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Right, the sound we hear is not the waves themselves, although the waves are there when no one is present to hear, there is no sound, subsequently.

    Mickorod Renard: I have a hunch about that

    Agatha Macbeth: What about the Doppler effect?

    Zen Arado: it takereceiver and originator

    Calvino Rabeni: Agatha, what about the doppler effect are you wondering about?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: waves plus receiver = sound

    Agatha Macbeth: Well, if you can't hear it and it's going away from you, can you still not hear it?

    Calvino Rabeni: How about - waves + receiver = story ?

    Agatha Macbeth: There is no spoon

    Bertram Jacobus: bye liza

    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liza

    Bertram Jacobus: have a good time

    Mickorod Renard: bye liza

    Liza Deischer: need to go

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Are you leaving or stretching your legs? haha

    Mickorod Renard: have fun

    arabella Ella: bye Liza night!

    Zen Arado: bye Liza

    Agatha Macbeth: We'll translate the log into Dutch for her ;-)

    Bertram Jacobus: we ?

    Agatha Macbeth: (She still won't understand it)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ouch!

    Agatha Macbeth: Never touched ya!

    Lawrence Vyceratops: haha

    Agatha Macbeth: Look I'm over here

    Zen Arado: doppler effect just means the pitch drops

    arabella Ella: Do you speak dutch Agatha?

    Agatha Macbeth: Tatty string

    Agatha Macbeth: 'Fraid not

    arabella Ella: ah

    Agatha Macbeth: :)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, the story thing...

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Why are we calling it a story?

    Agatha Macbeth: You mean the bullshit...

    Agatha Macbeth: Shyte

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Or, the buulshit.

    Agatha Macbeth: Indeed

    Calvino Rabeni: BS is an interpretation - the story is a mode of cognition

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Go on...

    Agatha Macbeth: Being Seeing?

    Mickorod Renard: well,,it cud be important,,but to get drawn into it may not be the best option

    Calvino Rabeni: I'd say sound = thought = story

    Agatha Macbeth: Not necessarily....

    Zen Arado: there is a kind of story in our society - kind of group consensus about things I think

    Calvino Rabeni: Answer one, you will see the others

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Right like if you show up to work and there is an office fire, it might be good to join in and help.

    Calvino Rabeni: what is a thought?

    Calvino Rabeni: A sound?

    Agatha Macbeth: What is a thing?

    Calvino Rabeni: Now a story is a conventional subset of these

    Agatha Macbeth: Aha

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Like, we can all see the cushions on the floor and we all agree that they are for sitting?

    Calvino Rabeni: the story is what it is called, when someone else makes it up, and we are pretty clear it isn't true, and it appears to have characters and a plot

    Bertram Jacobus: i agree

    Calvino Rabeni: But all that is true of the sound also

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Opinions and judgments.

    Calvino Rabeni: just harder to see

    Calvino Rabeni: If a tree falls in the forest, and makes a sound, then isn't it also a story?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: You are saying that there is a distinct difference between us all seeing what the cushion is and our own personal tastes regarding things like style and comfort?

    Agatha Macbeth: e = mc2

    Zen Arado: a culturally constructed reality

    Agatha Macbeth: 'Not a story coming from him but him coming from a story'

    Lawrence Vyceratops: You mean, "society?"

    Calvino Rabeni: The perceptions seem to appear already wrapped in story like particulars that are personal

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, are saying that we look at things in two different ways?

    Mickorod Renard: maybe

    Lawrence Vyceratops: One real and one imaginative?

    Agatha Macbeth: No, more than two!

    Calvino Rabeni: I think usually just one way

    Zen Arado: maybe there is no 'real'

    Mickorod Renard: I guess its easier for us to remember information in story form

    Calvino Rabeni: If a tree falls in the forest, it isn't just any tree and it isn't heard by just any person

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, for instance, we would all generally agree that the cushions we are sitting on are real, right?

    Calvino Rabeni: it comes in complete particulars

    Zen Arado: no they aren't


    Agatha Macbeth: Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (again)

    Zen Arado: what is real regarding cushions?

    Calvino Rabeni: If you address them, they are real

    Agatha Macbeth: If i throw one at you, you know it's real

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, we had better agree that we are sitting on cushions, otherwise, we are in for a difficult discussion...

    Agatha Macbeth: Ok, already, I agree

    Zen Arado: 'cushions' is just a concept

    Calvino Rabeni: We can agree on that, but without knowing just what they are

    Agatha Macbeth: Back to the story.....

    Calvino Rabeni: And if you want to say what they are, then that's a story

    Zen Arado: would it be a cushion to an alien from soace?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I hope that we can all agree that the cushions are real, at least as real as anything else...

    Calvino Rabeni: I would hope so

    Zen Arado: I don't sorry

    Agatha Macbeth: What galaxy is Soace in?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Zen, then, why did you choose to sit on one?

    Calvino Rabeni: Why play favorites with you criteria for what is real, Zen?

    arabella Ella: but life is all an illusion

    Zen Arado: conventiopn

    arabella Ella: isnt it?

    Agatha Macbeth: Second Life doubly so

    Calvino Rabeni: Aren't illusions real, Ara?

    Bertram Jacobus: how do you know ara ?

    arabella Ella: i read it today

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    arabella Ella: and i believe all i read

    arabella Ella: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: and you believe it ?

    Agatha Macbeth: Good answer Ara :)

    arabella Ella: of course

    Bertram Jacobus: oh

    Zen Arado: but if you look for a foundation it is only an agreed consensus - not 'real' is the point

    Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure that we have discussed illusion...

    Calvino Rabeni: Well that's a story Ara :)

    Agatha Macbeth: Do you believe stories tho?

    arabella Ella: it makes a lot of sense there is a song that says so too and i believe all i hear in songs like Let it Be

    arabella Ella: of course i believe stories

    Agatha Macbeth: When I find myself in times of trouble....

    arabella Ella: la la la

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok, then, can we at least agree that we are all sitting on cushions, whether real or illusion?

    arabella Ella: on pixels perhaps?

    Calvino Rabeni: Mick thinks its good to have a skill to "drop" stories at times

    Agatha Macbeth: What is it with the damn cushions Lawrence?

    Bertram Jacobus: i can agree law

    Lawrence Vyceratops: haha

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, *can*

    arabella Ella: go on anyway Lawrence was only pulling your leg

    Zen Arado: what is a cushion?

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Cushions are easy for us to identify without feelings and emotions.

    Mickorod Renard: I think we are in a story of our own,,and we can be distracted by others stories,,and they may not be that good

    Agatha Macbeth: He didn't touch my leg! :)

    arabella Ella: ah not the cushion i cuddle up to at night though :)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: It's not so easy in other areas of life, which causes us many problems that lead to violence and war.

    Bertram Jacobus: you don't ask that seriously no zen i hope ? ;-)

    Agatha Macbeth: Tell us more Ara ;-)

    arabella Ella: its private Agatha sorry

    Agatha Macbeth: Awwwwwww

    Agatha Macbeth: sulks

    Calvino Rabeni: It's a time honored technique to try to disconnect from all the stories that are emotionally compelling

    arabella Ella sends Ara a Hug

    arabella Ella: oh ... sends Agatha a hug ... he he

    Agatha Macbeth: Why are you hugging yourself?

    Agatha Macbeth: Oh thank you!

    arabella Ella: just imagining cushions

    Zen Arado: a cushion against inflation?

    Agatha Macbeth: But they aren't real!

    Agatha Macbeth: Are they?

    Calvino Rabeni: And it's interesting that Lawrence brings quite a moral dimension into what could be a matter of just seeing

    Lawrence Vyceratops: The cushions on the screen are not real, per se...

    Bertram Jacobus: cushions are real . tz pf

    Agatha Macbeth: Imagine the sound of one cushion clapping

    Mickorod Renard: but some stories are trivial,,or if not are not so relevent as they at first appear

    Zen Arado: :)

    Lawrence Vyceratops: But, yes, if we were actually here...

    Zen Arado: cushions the blow

    Agatha Macbeth: groans

    arabella Ella listens to Lawrence with more 'seriousness'' now

    Mickorod Renard: are they blow up?

    Calvino Rabeni: Good, Lawrence, because most of our live is lived *as if*

    Agatha Macbeth: Dolls?

    arabella Ella: baloons

    Agatha Macbeth: Her names's Daisy

    Lawrence Vyceratops: So, to me, I am interpreting this "story" as opinions that we have about things, perhaps even opinions about opinions....

    Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps

    Mickorod Renard: maybe

    Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps not

    Agatha Macbeth: Who knows?

    Mickorod Renard: or maybe they are stories that we dont need to even notice

    Calvino Rabeni: Not opinions, something deeper, a perspective with personal relevance

    Lawrence Vyceratops: I took the cushion as an example because we can generally agree that it is a cushion and does not need mystical qualities added to it to try and understand it. It's just a cushion.

    Agatha Macbeth: It is?

    Zen Arado: 'do not seek truth, just do not cherish opinions'

    arabella Ella: but there are trivial stories and serious stories which draw on our emotions or our responsibilities

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes.

    Agatha Macbeth: Just cushions

    Agatha Macbeth: Or stories

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Someone mentioned going to work and there are things to get drawn into... these stories...

    Calvino Rabeni: Whether the story is trivial or serious, is an aspect of another story

    arabella Ella: fiction perhaps too

    Agatha Macbeth: Don't mention Harry Potter

    arabella Ella: some people tend to add fiction to their RL stories

    Mickorod Renard: maybe it can be an observation,,as all stories can have a message

    Lawrence Vyceratops: The story could be some personal drama between coworkers, for instance, or the office could be on fire. One is based on psychological, one is based on reality.

    Zen Arado: we seem to need stories

    Calvino Rabeni: My story is like - hey, this is true, but the other guy's story at work was "just" a story

    arabella Ella: i must go to i ching workshop before the bell rings

    arabella Ella: bye all thanks for the chat

    Agatha Macbeth: Do you have fires in the office every day Lawrence?

    Zen Arado: they cushion reality for us

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, arabella.

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,me too,,hope you dont mind

    Calvino Rabeni: Anyone tried Improv Theater training?

    Zen Arado: bye Ara

    Agatha Macbeth: C ya Ara

    Mickorod Renard: not me

    Calvino Rabeni: You get to play with stories a lot

    Agatha Macbeth: hugs Arabella

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, no, thankfully! :)

    Calvino Rabeni: very instructive as a reality practice

    Mickorod Renard: sounds interesting Cal,,can u send me a note on it?

    Zen Arado: describe it Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: lots to learn for any person who has contemplative interests

    Mickorod Renard: cos i have to go now,,bye all thankyou

    Lawrence Vyceratops: I have a stricter schedule today. I have to go as well....

    Zen Arado: bye Mick

    Agatha Macbeth: Ta ta for now Mick

    Calvino Rabeni: I need to go - but it is a good continuation of the story inquiry

    Mickorod Renard: tat ta

    Zen Arado: bye Lawrence

    Lawrence Vyceratops: It was nice talking with you all.

    Agatha Macbeth: Yep, me too

    Calvino Rabeni: bye all !

    Zen Arado: bye Aga

    Calvino Rabeni: Likewise Lawrence

    Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, everyone!

    Agatha Macbeth: Thanks for the stoies, and the cushions

    Agatha Macbeth: strories

    Bertram Jacobus: bye ...

    Agatha Macbeth: bugger, bye all

    Zen Arado: give up Aga :)


    Bertram Jacobus: strange meeting this time ! ... ;-)

    Zen Arado: yes - a bit silly

    Zen Arado: I was anyway

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. gaga, or ... what was the name of this art form which didn't want to make too much sense ?

    Zen Arado: Da da

    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! :-))

    Zen Arado: but I was a bit serious some of it

    Bertram Jacobus: yes

    Zen Arado: Lawrence was trying to find a foundational assumption

    Zen Arado: about cushions

    Bertram Jacobus: yes

    Zen Arado: and assuming something is true as a start is dangerous

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. better be open

    Bertram Jacobus: neutral

    Zen Arado: if the starting assumption is wrong the whole structure of logic is also wrong

    Bertram Jacobus: you are not interested in the i ging workshop ?

    Zen Arado: where is it?

    Bertram Jacobus: we only had to ask one of the attendants, ara for example

    Bertram Jacobus: pila gives it

    Zen Arado: maybe Kira?

    Bertram Jacobus: may be - an assumption !? ;-)

    Zen Arado: :)

    Zen Arado: someone was IM ing me through the discussion too

    Bertram Jacobus: happens ...

    Zen Arado: awkward when they do that

    Bertram Jacobus: heyy wol ! ... :-))

    Wol Euler: hello zen, bert

    Zen Arado: Hi Wol

    Bertram Jacobus: happy to see you ! :-)

    Zen Arado: they've all gone but us

    Wol Euler nods.

    Wol Euler: too late today.

    Zen Arado: I ching?

    Bertram Jacobus: there is pilas - yes - i ging workshop now

    Zen Arado: discussion was a bit silly tonight

    Wol Euler: good :)

    Bertram Jacobus: very fast

    Zen Arado: but fun :)

    Bertram Jacobus: hello solivagus

    Zen Arado: Hi Solivagus

    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes i prefere less input ...

    Zen Arado: yes me too

    Zen Arado: I can't keep up

    Zen Arado: miss a lot

    Wol Euler: I usually open the chat history window and read from that

    Bertram Jacobus: good method

    Bertram Jacobus: so simple

    Wol Euler: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: i have it open, too, but not big enough - will change that next time

    Bertram Jacobus: but even that may not be enough sometimes

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Bertram Jacobus: on sessions like the last one may be for example

    Wol Euler: well, I'm getting curious to read it now.

    Bertram Jacobus: hehe :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: curiosity ... :-)

    Zen Arado: about cushions :)

    Bertram Jacobus: and stories

    Bertram Jacobus: and bullshit

    Wol Euler: ah :)

    Bertram Jacobus: sry. was only a quote

    Zen Arado: or stories :)

    Bertram Jacobus: wol - few days ago you took a photo here without the photo takin gesture - is that right ? and if yes, how can one do that, please ? :-)

    Wol Euler: you can disable it in the Advanced menu


    Wol Euler: ctrl-alt-d to get it active

    Wol Euler: then it's fifth or sixth in the menu

    Zen Arado: life is all just stories I am thiking

    Wol Euler: true,zen

    Bertram Jacobus: quiet snapshots to disk ? :-)

    Wol Euler: yep

    Zen Arado: dreams and illusions

    Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)

    Wol Euler: yw

    Bertram Jacobus: i don't know why some people deny reality

    Wol Euler: 42

    Zen Arado: you think there is an objective reality out there Bert?

    Bertram Jacobus: that seems quite popular these times ...

    Bertram Jacobus: i don't know

    Zen Arado: if we could only see it?

    Bertram Jacobus: then we only saw it

    Wol Euler: meta-snap

    Zen Arado: I don't

    Bertram Jacobus: you don't what please ?

    Zen Arado: only something that always changes

    Bertram Jacobus: ah " deny reality ? :-)

    Zen Arado: don't believe in a solid uunchanging reality

    Bertram Jacobus: ah.

    Bertram Jacobus: but thats a hughe difference

    Bertram Jacobus: reality and "a solid unchnaging reality" (!)

    Zen Arado: but that is what ppl think it is I think ?

    Zen Arado: Plato thought that

    Bertram Jacobus: some. may be. some in other ways i guess

    Zen Arado: he though where we are now is only an imperfect version of the 'real' reality

    Zen Arado: thought

    Bertram Jacobus: i try to get more simple

    Zen Arado: it is a very common view

    Bertram Jacobus: many views are simple as i seem to experience it

    Bertram Jacobus: many people live without such thoughts

    Bertram Jacobus: and it works (!) ;-)

    Wol Euler: sure

    Wol Euler: for certain people in certain lives

    Bertram Jacobus: many

    Wol Euler: if you take the world population, the vast majority don't have time or resources for mindfulness

    Zen Arado: we live with illusions

    Bertram Jacobus: even feel pressed to say : most

    Wol Euler: they re too busy not being murdered or starving to death

    Bertram Jacobus: yes

    Zen Arado: ah yes

    Bertram Jacobus: yes :-(

    Zen Arado: but they suffer too

    Zen Arado: I am reading a book about Montaignes

    Bertram Jacobus: but to get free from suffering, i would agree : good to see, that all is constantly changing . and not to cling on things

    Zen Arado: French philosopher

    Bertram Jacobus: but nevertheless i personally call it "reality"

    Bertram Jacobus: why not ?

    Wol Euler: indeed, a very clever chappie.

    Zen Arado: he believed it was best to live in the present moment

    Zen Arado: and he got it from Stoic philosophers

    Zen Arado: from about 400 BC

    Zen Arado: they taught the same things

    Bertram Jacobus: what is this "chappie", please ? :-)

    Wol Euler: Kerl

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. thx :-)

    Wol Euler: leicht schmeichelnd, verniedlichend

    Zen Arado: Montaigne?

    Wol Euler: yes,I was being facetious.

    Wol Euler: I discovered him recently through Alain de Botton

    Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Live-Mon...6272926&sr=8-1

    Zen Arado: he is fascinatin

    Zen Arado: very practical man

    Bertram Jacobus: fascinari is latin and means being or getting bound (!) ...


    Zen Arado: wrote about everyday things not lofty abstract philosophy

    Wol Euler: if you look for Alain de Botton on youtube, there is a series of episodes of a TV show he made, which was basically just reading chapters of his book "The consolations of philosophy"

    Zen Arado: I have that book

    Zen Arado: forgot it talked about Montaigne

    Bertram Jacobus: i don't find any consolation in philosophy ...

    Zen Arado: have to reread it :)

    Zen Arado: you have to look hard :)

    Wol Euler: well, people who find consolation in meditation probably don't need to look for it there :)

    Bertram Jacobus: i find it in religion, spirituality, meditation, karma yoga ...

    Zen Arado: I just got headaches

    Zen Arado: and no answers

    Zen Arado: just moe questions

    Bertram Jacobus: and in some everyday factors like nice talks, music, medicine against headache for example ... ;-)

    Zen Arado: zen is much better

    Wol Euler: ... but hopefully fresher and better ones.

    Wol Euler: (qiuestions)

    Zen Arado: it tells you not to search for answers

    Bertram Jacobus: and not to forget : love (!)

    Zen Arado: you get a lot of suffering from love too

    Bertram Jacobus: i prefere answers. but people are different

    Zen Arado: romantic love anyway

    Bertram Jacobus: i did not mean eros or philia zen, i meant agape

    Zen Arado: answers are only provisionally true....

    Bertram Jacobus: or better in our language : all including, not conditioned love

    Zen Arado: because of underlying impermanence

    Zen Arado: ok Bert

    Bertram Jacobus: and from that comes no suffering, as i understand it

    Wol Euler: in theory, it should do :)

    Bertram Jacobus: that is a quality of the highets level i can imagine

    Wol Euler: and it seems to work...

    Bertram Jacobus: words fail

    Zen Arado: sacrifice though

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. it works

    Zen Arado: selflessness

    Bertram Jacobus: i wanted to ask whether it is still difficult in your every day life after the retreat wol ?

    Wol Euler: it's getting slowly better,thank you.

    Wol Euler: talking about it was a great help.

    Bertram Jacobus: wonderful

    Zen Arado: great

    Wol Euler: funny how changes in perspective can work both ways :)

    Bertram Jacobus: and it's curious to me : i feel a lot of love in the last weeks - for you here for example - never said such things before

    Bertram Jacobus: but it happens to me again and agin

    Wol Euler smiles warmly.

    Wol Euler: Love is good.

    Bertram Jacobus: every few minutes i feel that

    Bertram Jacobus: i'm thankful and in love to feel such nice people as you and here ...

    Wol Euler: the mistake we make, the reason people are afraid of it, is that we assume that it must have consequences.

    Zen Arado: we fear the end of it

    Wol Euler: whereas surely the thing to do is simply to let it be, and to bask in its being.

    Zen Arado: it is hard when relationships break up

    Wol Euler: yes,surely.

    Bertram Jacobus: but sometimes expressing it is also very helpful. i expereince that in "both ways" - to me and from me

    Zen Arado: what is the best way to cope with the end of a relationship?

    Wol Euler: cry it out?

    Wol Euler: usually works for me.

    Zen Arado: men can't do that

    Wol Euler: O.O

    Wol Euler: who told you that?

    Zen Arado: :)

    Wol Euler: what are these things called "men" that you speak of?

    Zen Arado: it's the attachment and releasing it that is the problem

    Bertram Jacobus: and what you said about "masks" wol - or what was topic here the last days - i think - and radically teached in the spiritual teachings is, that we don´t have to do that. we must not. but also not hurt others with unnecessairily seemingly "open words" - sometimes silence is better. but one can feel free with that all i think ...

    Zen Arado: attachment


    Zen Arado: RL is so complicated sometimes

    Bertram Jacobus: my way of coping with problems is looking at them, contemplate about it, letting time work also, going as good ways as possible ... nad then, in the end all gets past ...

    Zen Arado: ultimately time is the answer I guess....

    Zen Arado: and having patience

    Bertram Jacobus: yes (?) but meditation is also a great help to me and can even be for everyone i think ...

    Zen Arado: and endurance...

    Bertram Jacobus: patience is also great *agree*

    Zen Arado: yes me too

    Wol Euler nods

    Zen Arado: acceptance so important

    Zen Arado: but so difficult sometimes.....

    Bertram Jacobus: so we know already a lot. the task now : to realize all that

    Wol Euler: :)

    Zen Arado: exactly

    Zen Arado: so many old habit patterns I have

    Bertram Jacobus: that's really a matter of time

    Bertram Jacobus: and practise

    Zen Arado: like a well worn groove I just slide into

    Wol Euler nods to zen.

    Zen Arado: so easiy....

    Wol Euler: like getting back into a warm bed...

    Bertram Jacobus: automatisms ...

    Zen Arado: good idea :)

    Bertram Jacobus: lol

    Bertram Jacobus: but we develop slightly new automatisms too i think, better ones

    Zen Arado: hopefully

    Bertram Jacobus: i'm sure

    Zen Arado: yes we do....

    Bertram Jacobus: :-)

    Zen Arado: anyway I better go do my meditation and go to bed

    Zen Arado: good nite Wol, Bert

    Bertram Jacobus: okay zen. appreciated this part of the meeting very much ! :o)

    Wol Euler: goodnight zen, take care. sleep well.

    Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)

    Zen Arado: me too :)

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