2010.02.16 13:00 - Smells like dream spirals

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Sometimes when several people ask questions at the same time, no one gets answered - at least not straightaway! Sadly this happened several times in this session. My apologies if you were there and didn't feel answered. I suspect we may have kept getting swept away in the flow of the often many threads of conversation.

Apologies also for the apparently insane title, a combination of a song and some of our topics!*** ;-)

Bertram Jacobus: helo storm and zon ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Bertram
Storm Nordwind: Hello Zon
Bertram Jacobus: nice to see you ! ...
Storm Nordwind smiles

Health and happiness.

Bertram Jacobus: are you both well today ?
Zon Quar: nods...and u
Bertram Jacobus: ty. yes :-)
Storm Nordwind: If not well, at least I'm happy :)
Bertram Jacobus: how does that work ? not well but happy ?
Zon Quar: thats the important thing
Zon Quar: be happy
Storm Nordwind: Being well and being happy are independent for me. How about you?
Bertram Jacobus: ah. now i see. okay
Zon Quar: u mean u can be physically ill but happy ?
Bertram Jacobus: in german that´s mixed up sometimes or even often
Storm Nordwind: Yes that's what I mean
Zon Quar: unless u have a toothache
Bertram Jacobus: hello bleu ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: I do have toothache Zon! :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Bleu
Zon Quar: oh
Zon Quar: i couldnt be happy then lol
Zon Quar: a flu..yes
Zon Quar: but not a ttohache
Zon Quar: tooth
Zon Quar: hi bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
Bertram Jacobus: helllo agatha ! ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: It's the one and only Agatha Macbeth. Welcome!
Agatha Macbeth: Hey stormy
Bleu Oleander: hey Agatha
Zon Quar: hi agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bleu, Zon
Bertram Jacobus: (few mins afk sry brb)
Storm Nordwind: So far we have no topic, unless anyone wants to develop what we've talked about already (about being well and being happy as independent)
Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, I missed that :(
Storm Nordwind: You can start it up again if you wish Agatha! :)
Agatha Macbeth: Er...
Storm Nordwind: hehe!
Zon Quar: happiness is a ggod one
Zon Quar: oh, gtg, be bacl alter, c u
Agatha Macbeth: Depends what makes you happy
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon
Storm Nordwind: There he was, gone
Storm Nordwind: Would you like to say more Agatha?
Agatha Macbeth: About what, sorry?
Bertram Jacobus: backk
Agatha Macbeth: WB Bert
Storm Nordwind: You said "Depends what makes you happy" ... and it seemed to be leading to something! :)
Bertram Jacobus: ty
Agatha Macbeth: Er, well..it does, I think
Agatha Macbeth: Different things make different people happy, no?
Bertram Jacobus: what makes you happy agatha ? :o)
Agatha Macbeth: That would be telling ;-)
Storm Nordwind: If was true that different things make different people happy, then I guess it would be theoretically impossible for everyone to be happy at the same time! :)
Agatha Macbeth: You can't make all the people happy all of the time ;-)
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: may be one could differ the relative and the so called absolute realm ...
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bolo
Bertram Jacobus: heyy bolle ! :o))
Bolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)
Storm Nordwind: Hey Bolo
Bleu Oleander: hi bolo
Bertram Jacobus: long time no see :-)
Storm Nordwind: What did you mean about relative and absolute realms Bertram? :)
Agatha Macbeth: I wondered too :)

Happiness and enlightenment.

Bertram Jacobus: i mean, that relatively different things make people happy. and "absolute" - if the buddha said the truth ... enlightenment makes all people "happy" ...
Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Are enlightenment and happiness the same thing?
Storm Nordwind: Good question Agatha! What does anyone think?
Bolonath Crystal: i can be happy without enlightenment
Bertram Jacobus: i would state that enlightenment is an happy state :o)
Bertram Jacobus: heyy mick ! :-)
Storm Nordwind: Yes me too Bolo, and I'm not sure I would classify myself as enlightened yet!
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Mick :)
Storm Nordwind: Hullo Mick
Bolonath Crystal: namaste mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya folks
Bleu Oleander: hi mick
Bertram Jacobus: you are not sure storm !? really remarkable times, these times ... :-)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Storm Nordwind: hehe Bertram!
Storm Nordwind: I would classify myself as happy all the time though. Maybe I have a bit to go!
Bleu Oleander: how will you know when you have reached enlightenment?
Agatha Macbeth: Why are you happy though Storm?
Bertram Jacobus: as i said - remarkable times ...
Bertram Jacobus: there seem to be some in such states ...
Bertram Jacobus: and may be getting more, quite fast

Enlightenment and nirvana.

Bolonath Crystal: vedic teachings speak about a state called 'ananda', which is often translated as 'happyness', but actually describes a very ecstatic feeling, more than happiness
Agatha Macbeth: What is Nirvana then?
Bertram Jacobus: playing with words ?
Bolonath Crystal: nirvana is the opposite of samsara
Bertram Jacobus: ("bliss") ...
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, what is Samsara? :)
Agatha Macbeth: (Don't say the opposite of Nirvana!)
Bertram Jacobus: a perspective
Bolonath Crystal: samsara is the dualistic world which we experience at the moment. samsara is only happening in the mind
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bleu Oleander: dualistic?
Bertram Jacobus: we ?
Bolonath Crystal: 'relative' as bert would say
Storm Nordwind: (To answer your earlier question Bleu, people may have different ideas of how to tell wther you've reached enlightenment. I think there will be a level of awareness that would imply no more learning.)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe :-)
Agatha Macbeth: So what would the opposite of that be?
Bleu Oleander: don't think that is a possible goal ... no more learning
Bertram Jacobus: unity agatha
Bertram Jacobus: re zon
Bolonath Crystal: what we experience as 'reality' is a mental modell. our reality consists of perceptions
Bolonath Crystal: that is samsara
Bolonath Crystal: 'think-world'
Storm Nordwind: I think I would treat it as an effect rather than a goal Bleu
Mickorod Renard: Hi Zon
Bolonath Crystal: nirvana is the be-world
Zon Quar: everyone happy now ?
Agatha Macbeth: WB Zon
Storm Nordwind: Yes, Zon, even with you here! ;)

Nirvana and seeing.

Agatha Macbeth: So is Nirvana 'un-reality'?
Bolonath Crystal: reality is what we think it is
Bolonath Crystal: if we think, samsara is real, we are not enlightened
Zon Quar: should we aim at nirvana or at happiness ?
Bertram Jacobus: no agatha. supra reality
Agatha Macbeth: is clueless
Bertram Jacobus: wonderful ! :o)
Bleu Oleander: not clueless, just not enlightened
Agatha Macbeth: Well, yeah
Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: rastaman vibrations yeah positive
Agatha Macbeth: Put the ganja away Bert
Bolonath Crystal: in hinduism the absolute and the relative realm (or nirvana and samsara) is symbolised by the deities shiva and shakti. but enlightenment here isn't to leave shakti behind and reach a 'shiva#state'. enlightenment means the merging of shiva and shakti
Bertram Jacobus: don´t need any anymore
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, that makes more sense Bolo :)
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Enlightenment is clear seeing, with a non-conceptual mind, what is real and what is not. Some traditions outline series of gradual steps to that. Others say it is sudden.
Agatha Macbeth: Right

Seeing and dreaming.

Mickorod Renard: can you elaborate on 'non conceptual mind' please?
Zon Quar: how do u know what u r seeing is clear, what if ur eyes fail ?
Mickorod Renard: I see clearer now that I am almost deaf
Storm Nordwind: A non-conceptual mind can understand or realize its object or focus directly. Most times we have concepts getting in the way
Mickorod Renard: ty
Bertram Jacobus: we ?
Storm Nordwind: Or perhaps you don't Bertram?
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t know who not possibly
Zon Quar: what if we r dreaming that we percieve things
Mickorod Renard: its dificult to remove concepts that we have become attached to over a lifetime
Bleu Oleander: doubt it's possible to understand or realize directly without concepts
Zon Quar: isnt understanding mind stuff ?
Bertram Jacobus: so many words ...
Bolonath Crystal: i like the dream-concept (as long as concepts are neccessary)
Storm Nordwind: When we dream, we can find out that things are not true.
Zon Quar: how
Storm Nordwind: When we wake, we see they are not true
Zon Quar: what if we wake up in antother dream
Storm Nordwind: You mean nested dreams?
Zon Quar: yes
Agatha Macbeth: False awakening?
Zon Quar: we dearm in night
Zon Quar: then we wake up
Zon Quar: and start thinking
Zon Quar: which is dreaming witheyes open

Dreaming and fractals.

Agatha Macbeth: A Mandelbrot fractal?
Storm Nordwind: Would you like to tell us more about what a fractal universe is Bolo?
Bolonath Crystal: yes, that mandelbrot stuff
Zon Quar: isnt it like a hlogram ?
Mickorod Renard: yes, I am interested in fractal universes
Zon Quar: in every little part is the whole
Bolonath Crystal: if the universe would be fractal, then the pattern of the structures would be repeated e.g. in all levels of size
Zon Quar: mm
Zon Quar: as above so below...
Bolonath Crystal: for a while that might happen, but at the end there is this funny relation, that heisenberg found out (don't know the english name of heisenbergs unschärferelation)
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps we just need a wider view. Are there subatomic particles around a nucleus. Are there star systems or galaxies spinning around similarly?
Bolonath Crystal: things can't be smaller than a certain size. that's the end of fractals
Bertram Jacobus: hey ara ! :-))
Storm Nordwind: Hi ara!
Bolonath Crystal: namaste ara
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :)
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
Zon Quar: hi ara
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
Bleu Oleander: hi ara
Bolonath Crystal: i think it is not very realistic to imagine electrones as little balls flying around protons
Zon Quar: i think in each drop of water is the essence of ocean
Mickorod Renard: I still believe that having some thoughts on a fractal existence may be helpful
Bolonath Crystal: zon, i agree. but that's not an argument for fractality, but for entanglement
Zon Quar: hm ?
Storm Nordwind: Between what and what Bolo?
Zon Quar: yes..lol
Bolonath Crystal: between everything
--BELL--
Zon Quar: but every is not a thing
Bolonath Crystal: the universe was very small in the beginning. it was a quantum universe. things grew bigger since, but still are entangled
Zon Quar: is ur point that there is no repetition, Bolo ?
Bolonath Crystal: right. some things look like repetition, but it is a spiral rather than a circle
Zon Quar: nods
Agatha Macbeth: Uh huh
Zon Quar: and fractals repeat ?
Bolonath Crystal: yes
Zon Quar: agreed

Fractals and dots.

Agatha Macbeth: Does chaos Theory come into this anywhere?
Zon Quar: what does it say
Mickorod Renard: I suspect we are still some way off knowing what the universe is like
Agatha Macbeth: Something about a butterfly flapping its wings?
Zon Quar: perhaps its a mix
Agatha Macbeth: Causes a ripple effect which affects all things
Zon Quar: of repetition and chaos
Zon Quar: in balance
arabella Ella: that is Heisenberg's theory of indeterminancy I think Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: So balance is the key element?
arabella Ella: which is used for meterology
Agatha Macbeth: nods to Ara
Mickorod Renard: meterology is now being looked at from a fractal perspective
Storm Nordwind remembers playing for hours with the "Fractint" program some 20 years ago and wonders if it's still going
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Does anyone remember SIRDs?
Zon Quar: ?
arabella Ella: no
Mickorod Renard: I recall them,,but am not too up on it
Agatha Macbeth: They were kind of pictures made up of dots
Agatha Macbeth: created by computer
arabella Ella: oh yes i think i remember them too
Agatha Macbeth: But I could never see any pictures in them! :)
arabella Ella: the ones you push up to your nose?
arabella Ella: i could not either i must admit
Agatha Macbeth: Well I used to hold them at arm's length and move them in gradually
Agatha Macbeth: It didn't work tho :(
Storm Nordwind: An ability to go cross-eyed helps ;)
Agatha Macbeth: Stereograms
Agatha Macbeth: I think they were caleed that too
Agatha Macbeth: called
Storm Nordwind: I had a program for creating them once, yes
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Bolonath Crystal: i never pushed any pictures up my nose... but i remember these early 3d-picture booklets
Bertram Jacobus: i couldn´t a long time, too. but then i said like the buddha : i look now so long on it until i it happens - and then - it worked ... :-)
Mickorod Renard: I was quite succesful in doing them,,well seeing the pattern,,but I am colour blind and that may help
Agatha Macbeth: You don't know what you missed Bolo :)
Agatha Macbeth: Could be Mick
Bolonath Crystal: i'll try it next life, agatha ;)
Agatha Macbeth: grins
Bertram Jacobus: these pictures are amazing
Agatha Macbeth: Which pictures Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: but one can have the same impressions with the 3d glasses and movies
Bertram Jacobus: tehse 3d pictures
Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes, I know
Zon Quar: hm but fractals r not similar,,they r not linear,, ?
Bolonath Crystal: hehe, would be a funny thing if it turns out, that the universe consists of dots close to our noses
arabella Ella smiles
arabella Ella: one never really knows
Mickorod Renard: well,, it may do
Bolonath Crystal: yes :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Agatha Macbeth: The big bang in reverse...
Zon Quar: so unverse is a big nose surrounded by dots...
Mickorod Renard: sounds painful
Bertram Jacobus: bang bang bang
Agatha Macbeth: Dot dot dot
Bertram Jacobus: yess :-)

Dots and holograms.

Storm Nordwind: If you want to read an interesting article about stuff like that: "Data indicates we may be living in a cosmic hologram of sorts" http://bit.ly/cjvweA
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: That's good Storm :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,the source of the holographic projection has been predicted
Storm Nordwind whispers that the full article here: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...html?full=true

Holograms and play.

Agatha Macbeth: Eat your heart out Arnold Rimmer :0
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Mickorod Renard: and some place in Germany I think have detected the tell tale signature of a holographic projection
Agatha Macbeth: Oh smeg
Mickorod Renard: Rimmer,,that ois an unfortunate name
arabella Ella: please illuminate me?
Agatha Macbeth: So is Arnold if you ask me...
arabella Ella: i am lost here
Agatha Macbeth: Red Dwarf? no?
Agatha Macbeth: (No)
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bertram Jacobus: me so often ara
Zon Quar: ara..u r not alone lost
Storm Nordwind: It's a cultural thing Agatha
arabella Ella: me too Bert so you are not alone
arabella Ella smiles
Agatha Macbeth: Must be :)
Bertram Jacobus: we are already three ! :-)
arabella Ella: must be something typically british?
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Storm Nordwind: When the height of humour is Cheers for some people, what can you expect Agatha? ;)
Agatha Macbeth: Obviously never got sold abroad
Mickorod Renard: we may be able to include Irish too
Agatha Macbeth: I liked Cheers!
Mickorod Renard: thinking of Zon
Agatha Macbeth: Especially when Shelley Long was in it
arabella Ella: second request ... please illuminate us Barbarians please?
Zon Quar: what did i do
Storm Nordwind: It's a SciFi TV comedy
Mickorod Renard: sorry,,its Zen that Irish
Agatha Macbeth: That's a rugby team Ara
arabella Ella: now this makes it all more confusing
Storm Nordwind: Ran to many many series 80s onwards
Zon Quar: ah..no wonder...
Mickorod Renard: got my Zons and Zens mixed
Zon Quar: dont understnd rugby
arabella Ella: a TV comedy, a rugby team, Zen is irish ... complex stuff u Brits
Storm Nordwind: One of the lead characters was a hologram called Arnold Rimmer
Agatha Macbeth: This is true
Zon Quar: now its late, bye all u rugby fans
arabella Ella: what was the series called?
arabella Ella: nite Zon
Mickorod Renard: bye Zon
Agatha Macbeth: Red Dwarf, Ara
Bolonath Crystal: nite zon
Storm Nordwind: Red Dwarf 1, 2, 3, 4 etc
Bleu Oleander: bye zon
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon
Bertram Jacobus: nite zon
Storm Nordwind waves
arabella Ella: ah ... heard the name but dont know it
Agatha Macbeth: Actually, think I will go too, I want to check out Fael's new wings...
Mickorod Renard: bye Agatha
Bolonath Crystal: byeagatha
Storm Nordwind waves
Bleu Oleander: bfn everyone
arabella Ella: bye Agatha ... nice new look ... again!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye all!
arabella Ella: wings tomorrow?
Storm Nordwind: Bye Bleu
arabella Ella: bye Bleu
Bertram Jacobus: bye agatha
Bertram Jacobus: bye bleu
Bolonath Crystal: how did we come from heisenberg to cheers?
arabella Ella: he he

Play as Being.

arabella Ella: oh some news ... there will be another retreat in Malta in January 2012
arabella Ella: so mark your diaries!
Storm Nordwind: Well we started with happiness Bolo!
Storm Nordwind: yay ara!
arabella Ella: i must be crazy ... but still sounds good and shows i was not put off
Mickorod Renard: I will ask my work for the time off now,,then they will have had pleanty of warning
arabella Ella smiles
arabella Ella: last week of January 2012 for 5 days
Storm Nordwind: You ARE crazy ara... but you're one of the happy sorts! ;) (Dilbert quote)
arabella Ella: i dont mind being crazy at all Storm
arabella Ella: it's fun
Bolonath Crystal: i hope i can make it to stuttgart in october
arabella Ella: yes me too i am planning to go to Stuttgart too
Bertram Jacobus: i try to be there too
Bolonath Crystal: :)
arabella Ella: great
arabella Ella: anyone here going to the SF one?
Mickorod Renard: not me
Bertram Jacobus: not me sry :-/
Storm Nordwind: I will be in Crestone, sorry
Bolonath Crystal: what is this?
arabella Ella: there is a list of retreats on the PaB web Bolo
arabella Ella: one in SF in April
Storm Nordwind: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Retreats
arabella Ella: one in CO later
arabella Ella: one in Holland too
Bolonath Crystal: oh... sf = san francisco
arabella Ella: oh and Canada
Bolonath Crystal: now i got it
arabella Ella: apologies
Bolonath Crystal: nm
arabella Ella: oh apologies again i thought you were from the USA
arabella Ella: but obviously you are not
Storm Nordwind: There's an empowerment in Crestone this April that overlaps with the PaB retreat, so I had to choose
Bolonath Crystal: thank you :)
arabella Ella: :)
Bolonath Crystal: i won't be around in april
Bolonath Crystal: i have my own retreat then
arabella Ella: ah
arabella Ella: cool
Bolonath Crystal: beach yoga in thailand :)
arabella Ella: how lovely
arabella Ella: may we join you?
Bolonath Crystal: of course :)
arabella Ella: (only joking but would be lovely)
arabella Ella: just wishful thinking
Bolonath Crystal: i'm sick of winter and need some tropical sun
Storm Nordwind: I get sunburnt in the winter sun here!
Bolonath Crystal: here? where are you, storm?
Storm Nordwind: Colorado, Bolo
Bolonath Crystal: oh, great
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: at 1700m above sealevel
arabella Ella: some people got a bit sunburnt at the Malta retreat too ... frekles etc
Mickorod Renard: like me
Mickorod Renard: :)
Storm Nordwind: The air is so clear that you can always see 100km - unless it's snowing! So the sun is much stronger (Though some say it's just closer to the sun!;)
arabella Ella: yes i meant your frekles Mick from Malta ... have they gone yet?
arabella Ella: oh and Yaku too
Bolonath Crystal: dots close to the nose *ggg* some universal freckles
arabella Ella: he he

...

Bolonath Crystal: i'm off to bed... bfn, om shanti :)
Bertram Jacobus: nachti bolo
arabella Ella: nacht Bolo
Mickorod Renard: bye bolo
Bertram Jacobus: oommmmm (?) :-)
arabella Ella: :0
arabella Ella: :)
Bertram Jacobus: om or not om - could that be a question ? ;-)
Storm Nordwind smiles
arabella Ella: i guess it could Bert
Bertram Jacobus: a serious one ara ?
arabella Ella: always serious Bert :)
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: hm. don´t believe that. sry. bad believer ;-)
Mickorod Renard: ok folks,,I am off home
arabella Ella whispers ... why dont people believe Ara??!!!
Bertram Jacobus: what could be the motivation of such a serious question ?
Bertram Jacobus: and the other thing : that´s normal ara - many people have such experiences. again and again. and then less perhaps. and then more again. and then less again ... until ... that topic "ends" ...
arabella Ella: yes true ...
arabella Ella: but i take their dis belief in good nature
Bertram Jacobus: oh - was bedeutet das bitte ?
arabella Ella: ah
Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
arabella Ella: auf deutche
Bertram Jacobus: sry please
Bertram Jacobus: wäre toll ! ;-)
arabella Ella: ich verstehe dich mit meine gute meinung?
arabella Ella: (sort of)
arabella Ella: bad german sorry
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm
arabella Ella: i know you said it with good intention not bad ones
Bertram Jacobus: ah ! ty :-)
arabella Ella smiles
arabella Ella: must go now
arabella Ella: nite Bertram nite Storm
Storm Nordwind waves
Bertram Jacobus: bye ara
Storm Nordwind: Time for me to go too Bert
Bertram Jacobus: nite
Bertram Jacobus: bye storm
Storm Nordwind: Sleep well!
Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)

*** For those who have read this far and still don't know what the title was about, "Smells like teen spirit" was an oddly named but very popular 1991 song by a band called Nirvana. Nirvana was a topic in this session. Dream, rhyming (slightly) with teen, was a sub-topic for a while. Spirals, rather than spirit, came in with galaxies and repetition. Not really very funny, when you have to explain it, eh? :)