2010.02.16 13:00 - Smells like dream spirals

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

    Sometimes when several people ask questions at the same time, no one gets answered - at least not straightaway! Sadly this happened several times in this session. My apologies if you were there and didn't feel answered. I suspect we may have kept getting swept away in the flow of the often many threads of conversation.

    Apologies also for the apparently insane title, a combination of a song and some of our topics!*** ;-)

    Bertram Jacobus: helo storm and zon ... :-)
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Bertram
    Storm Nordwind: Hello Zon
    Bertram Jacobus: nice to see you ! ...
    Storm Nordwind smiles

    Health and happiness.
    Bertram Jacobus: are you both well today ?
    Zon Quar: nods...and u
    Bertram Jacobus: ty. yes :-)
    Storm Nordwind: If not well, at least I'm happy :)
    Bertram Jacobus: how does that work ? not well but happy ?
    Zon Quar: thats the important thing
    Zon Quar: be happy
    Storm Nordwind: Being well and being happy are independent for me. How about you?
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. now i see. okay
    Zon Quar: u mean u can be physically ill but happy ?
    Bertram Jacobus: in german that´s mixed up sometimes or even often
    Storm Nordwind: Yes that's what I mean
    Zon Quar: unless u have a toothache
    Bertram Jacobus: hello bleu ... :-)
    Storm Nordwind: I do have toothache Zon! :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Bleu
    Zon Quar: oh
    Zon Quar: i couldnt be happy then lol
    Zon Quar: a flu..yes
    Zon Quar: but not a ttohache
    Zon Quar: tooth
    Zon Quar: hi bleu
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
    Bertram Jacobus: helllo agatha ! ... :-)
    Storm Nordwind: It's the one and only Agatha Macbeth. Welcome!
    Agatha Macbeth: Hey stormy
    Bleu Oleander: hey Agatha
    Zon Quar: hi agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bleu, Zon
    Bertram Jacobus: (few mins afk sry brb)
    Storm Nordwind: So far we have no topic, unless anyone wants to develop what we've talked about already (about being well and being happy as independent)
    Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, I missed that :(
    Storm Nordwind: You can start it up again if you wish Agatha! :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Er...
    Storm Nordwind: hehe!
    Zon Quar: happiness is a ggod one
    Zon Quar: oh, gtg, be bacl alter, c u
    Agatha Macbeth: Depends what makes you happy
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon
    Storm Nordwind: There he was, gone
    Storm Nordwind: Would you like to say more Agatha?
    Agatha Macbeth: About what, sorry?
    Bertram Jacobus: backk
    Agatha Macbeth: WB Bert
    Storm Nordwind: You said "Depends what makes you happy" ... and it seemed to be leading to something! :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty
    Agatha Macbeth: Er, well..it does, I think
    Agatha Macbeth: Different things make different people happy, no?
    Bertram Jacobus: what makes you happy agatha ? :o)
    Agatha Macbeth: That would be telling ;-)
    Storm Nordwind: If was true that different things make different people happy, then I guess it would be theoretically impossible for everyone to be happy at the same time! :)
    Agatha Macbeth: You can't make all the people happy all of the time ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: may be one could differ the relative and the so called absolute realm ...
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bolo
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy bolle ! :o))
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hey Bolo
    Bleu Oleander: hi bolo
    Bertram Jacobus: long time no see :-)
    Storm Nordwind: What did you mean about relative and absolute realms Bertram? :)
    Agatha Macbeth: I wondered too :)

    Happiness and enlightenment.
    Bertram Jacobus: i mean, that relatively different things make people happy. and "absolute" - if the buddha said the truth ... enlightenment makes all people "happy" ...
    Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
    Agatha Macbeth: Are enlightenment and happiness the same thing?
    Storm Nordwind: Good question Agatha! What does anyone think?
    Bolonath Crystal: i can be happy without enlightenment
    Bertram Jacobus: i would state that enlightenment is an happy state :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy mick ! :-)
    Storm Nordwind: Yes me too Bolo, and I'm not sure I would classify myself as enlightened yet!
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Mick :)
    Storm Nordwind: Hullo Mick
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya folks
    Bleu Oleander: hi mick
    Bertram Jacobus: you are not sure storm !? really remarkable times, these times ... :-)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Storm Nordwind: hehe Bertram!
    Storm Nordwind: I would classify myself as happy all the time though. Maybe I have a bit to go!
    Bleu Oleander: how will you know when you have reached enlightenment?
    Agatha Macbeth: Why are you happy though Storm?
    Bertram Jacobus: as i said - remarkable times ...
    Bertram Jacobus: there seem to be some in such states ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and may be getting more, quite fast

    Enlightenment and nirvana.
    Bolonath Crystal: vedic teachings speak about a state called 'ananda', which is often translated as 'happyness', but actually describes a very ecstatic feeling, more than happiness
    Agatha Macbeth: What is Nirvana then?
    Bertram Jacobus: playing with words ?
    Bolonath Crystal: nirvana is the opposite of samsara
    Bertram Jacobus: ("bliss") ...
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, what is Samsara? :)
    Agatha Macbeth: (Don't say the opposite of Nirvana!)
    Bertram Jacobus: a perspective
    Bolonath Crystal: samsara is the dualistic world which we experience at the moment. samsara is only happening in the mind
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Bleu Oleander: dualistic?
    Bertram Jacobus: we ?
    Bolonath Crystal: 'relative' as bert would say
    Storm Nordwind: (To answer your earlier question Bleu, people may have different ideas of how to tell wther you've reached enlightenment. I think there will be a level of awareness that would imply no more learning.)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe :-)
    Agatha Macbeth: So what would the opposite of that be?
    Bleu Oleander: don't think that is a possible goal ... no more learning
    Bertram Jacobus: unity agatha
    Bertram Jacobus: re zon
    Bolonath Crystal: what we experience as 'reality' is a mental modell. our reality consists of perceptions
    Bolonath Crystal: that is samsara
    Bolonath Crystal: 'think-world'
    Storm Nordwind: I think I would treat it as an effect rather than a goal Bleu
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Zon
    Bolonath Crystal: nirvana is the be-world
    Zon Quar: everyone happy now ?
    Agatha Macbeth: WB Zon
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, Zon, even with you here! ;)

    Nirvana and seeing.
    Agatha Macbeth: So is Nirvana 'un-reality'?
    Bolonath Crystal: reality is what we think it is
    Bolonath Crystal: if we think, samsara is real, we are not enlightened
    Zon Quar: should we aim at nirvana or at happiness ?
    Bertram Jacobus: no agatha. supra reality
    Agatha Macbeth: is clueless
    Bertram Jacobus: wonderful ! :o)
    Bleu Oleander: not clueless, just not enlightened
    Agatha Macbeth: Well, yeah
    Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: rastaman vibrations yeah positive
    Agatha Macbeth: Put the ganja away Bert
    Bolonath Crystal: in hinduism the absolute and the relative realm (or nirvana and samsara) is symbolised by the deities shiva and shakti. but enlightenment here isn't to leave shakti behind and reach a 'shiva#state'. enlightenment means the merging of shiva and shakti
    Bertram Jacobus: don´t need any anymore
    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, that makes more sense Bolo :)
    Storm Nordwind: Enlightenment is clear seeing, with a non-conceptual mind, what is real and what is not. Some traditions outline series of gradual steps to that. Others say it is sudden.
    Agatha Macbeth: Right

    Seeing and dreaming.
    Mickorod Renard: can you elaborate on 'non conceptual mind' please?
    Zon Quar: how do u know what u r seeing is clear, what if ur eyes fail ?
    Mickorod Renard: I see clearer now that I am almost deaf
    Storm Nordwind: A non-conceptual mind can understand or realize its object or focus directly. Most times we have concepts getting in the way
    Mickorod Renard: ty
    Bertram Jacobus: we ?
    Storm Nordwind: Or perhaps you don't Bertram?
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t know who not possibly
    Zon Quar: what if we r dreaming that we percieve things
    Mickorod Renard: its dificult to remove concepts that we have become attached to over a lifetime
    Bleu Oleander: doubt it's possible to understand or realize directly without concepts
    Zon Quar: isnt understanding mind stuff ?
    Bertram Jacobus: so many words ...
    Bolonath Crystal: i like the dream-concept (as long as concepts are neccessary)
    Storm Nordwind: When we dream, we can find out that things are not true.
    Zon Quar: how
    Storm Nordwind: When we wake, we see they are not true
    Zon Quar: what if we wake up in antother dream
    Storm Nordwind: You mean nested dreams?
    Zon Quar: yes
    Agatha Macbeth: False awakening?
    Zon Quar: we dearm in night
    Zon Quar: then we wake up
    Zon Quar: and start thinking
    Zon Quar: which is dreaming witheyes open

    Dreaming and fractals.
    Agatha Macbeth: A Mandelbrot fractal?
    Storm Nordwind: Would you like to tell us more about what a fractal universe is Bolo?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, that mandelbrot stuff
    Zon Quar: isnt it like a hlogram ?
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I am interested in fractal universes
    Zon Quar: in every little part is the whole
    Bolonath Crystal: if the universe would be fractal, then the pattern of the structures would be repeated e.g. in all levels of size
    Zon Quar: mm
    Zon Quar: as above so below...
    Bolonath Crystal: for a while that might happen, but at the end there is this funny relation, that heisenberg found out (don't know the english name of heisenbergs unschärferelation)
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps we just need a wider view. Are there subatomic particles around a nucleus. Are there star systems or galaxies spinning around similarly?
    Bolonath Crystal: things can't be smaller than a certain size. that's the end of fractals
    Bertram Jacobus: hey ara ! :-))
    Storm Nordwind: Hi ara!
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste ara
    Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Zon Quar: hi ara
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
    Bleu Oleander: hi ara
    Bolonath Crystal: i think it is not very realistic to imagine electrones as little balls flying around protons
    Zon Quar: i think in each drop of water is the essence of ocean
    Mickorod Renard: I still believe that having some thoughts on a fractal existence may be helpful
    Bolonath Crystal: zon, i agree. but that's not an argument for fractality, but for entanglement
    Zon Quar: hm ?
    Storm Nordwind: Between what and what Bolo?
    Zon Quar: yes..lol
    Bolonath Crystal: between everything
    Zon Quar: but every is not a thing
    Bolonath Crystal: the universe was very small in the beginning. it was a quantum universe. things grew bigger since, but still are entangled
    Zon Quar: is ur point that there is no repetition, Bolo ?
    Bolonath Crystal: right. some things look like repetition, but it is a spiral rather than a circle
    Zon Quar: nods
    Agatha Macbeth: Uh huh
    Zon Quar: and fractals repeat ?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes
    Zon Quar: agreed

    Fractals and dots.
    Agatha Macbeth: Does chaos Theory come into this anywhere?
    Zon Quar: what does it say
    Mickorod Renard: I suspect we are still some way off knowing what the universe is like
    Agatha Macbeth: Something about a butterfly flapping its wings?
    Zon Quar: perhaps its a mix
    Agatha Macbeth: Causes a ripple effect which affects all things
    Zon Quar: of repetition and chaos
    Zon Quar: in balance
    arabella Ella: that is Heisenberg's theory of indeterminancy I think Agatha
    Agatha Macbeth: So balance is the key element?
    arabella Ella: which is used for meterology
    Agatha Macbeth: nods to Ara
    Mickorod Renard: meterology is now being looked at from a fractal perspective
    Storm Nordwind remembers playing for hours with the "Fractint" program some 20 years ago and wonders if it's still going
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Does anyone remember SIRDs?
    Zon Quar: ?
    arabella Ella: no
    Mickorod Renard: I recall them,,but am not too up on it
    Agatha Macbeth: They were kind of pictures made up of dots
    Agatha Macbeth: created by computer
    arabella Ella: oh yes i think i remember them too
    Agatha Macbeth: But I could never see any pictures in them! :)
    arabella Ella: the ones you push up to your nose?
    arabella Ella: i could not either i must admit
    Agatha Macbeth: Well I used to hold them at arm's length and move them in gradually
    Agatha Macbeth: It didn't work tho :(
    Storm Nordwind: An ability to go cross-eyed helps ;)
    Agatha Macbeth: Stereograms
    Agatha Macbeth: I think they were caleed that too
    Agatha Macbeth: called
    Storm Nordwind: I had a program for creating them once, yes
    Agatha Macbeth: :)
    Bolonath Crystal: i never pushed any pictures up my nose... but i remember these early 3d-picture booklets
    Bertram Jacobus: i couldn´t a long time, too. but then i said like the buddha : i look now so long on it until i it happens - and then - it worked ... :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I was quite succesful in doing them,,well seeing the pattern,,but I am colour blind and that may help
    Agatha Macbeth: You don't know what you missed Bolo :)
    Agatha Macbeth: Could be Mick
    Bolonath Crystal: i'll try it next life, agatha ;)
    Agatha Macbeth: grins
    Bertram Jacobus: these pictures are amazing
    Agatha Macbeth: Which pictures Bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: but one can have the same impressions with the 3d glasses and movies
    Bertram Jacobus: tehse 3d pictures
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes, I know
    Zon Quar: hm but fractals r not similar,,they r not linear,, ?
    Bolonath Crystal: hehe, would be a funny thing if it turns out, that the universe consists of dots close to our noses
    arabella Ella smiles
    arabella Ella: one never really knows
    Mickorod Renard: well,, it may do
    Bolonath Crystal: yes :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Agatha Macbeth: The big bang in reverse...
    Zon Quar: so unverse is a big nose surrounded by dots...
    Mickorod Renard: sounds painful
    Bertram Jacobus: bang bang bang
    Agatha Macbeth: Dot dot dot
    Bertram Jacobus: yess :-)

    Dots and holograms.
    Storm Nordwind: If you want to read an interesting article about stuff like that: "Data indicates we may be living in a cosmic hologram of sorts" http://bit.ly/cjvweA
    Agatha Macbeth: That's good Storm :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,the source of the holographic projection has been predicted
    Storm Nordwind whispers that the full article here: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...html?full=true

    Holograms and play.
    Agatha Macbeth: Eat your heart out Arnold Rimmer :0
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Mickorod Renard: and some place in Germany I think have detected the tell tale signature of a holographic projection
    Agatha Macbeth: Oh smeg
    Mickorod Renard: Rimmer,,that ois an unfortunate name
    arabella Ella: please illuminate me?
    Agatha Macbeth: So is Arnold if you ask me...
    arabella Ella: i am lost here
    Agatha Macbeth: Red Dwarf? no?
    Agatha Macbeth: (No)
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Bertram Jacobus: me so often ara
    Zon Quar: ara..u r not alone lost
    Storm Nordwind: It's a cultural thing Agatha
    arabella Ella: me too Bert so you are not alone
    arabella Ella smiles
    Agatha Macbeth: Must be :)
    Bertram Jacobus: we are already three ! :-)
    arabella Ella: must be something typically british?
    Agatha Macbeth: Yep
    Storm Nordwind: When the height of humour is Cheers for some people, what can you expect Agatha? ;)
    Agatha Macbeth: Obviously never got sold abroad
    Mickorod Renard: we may be able to include Irish too
    Agatha Macbeth: I liked Cheers!
    Mickorod Renard: thinking of Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Especially when Shelley Long was in it
    arabella Ella: second request ... please illuminate us Barbarians please?
    Zon Quar: what did i do
    Storm Nordwind: It's a SciFi TV comedy
    Mickorod Renard: sorry,,its Zen that Irish
    Agatha Macbeth: That's a rugby team Ara
    arabella Ella: now this makes it all more confusing
    Storm Nordwind: Ran to many many series 80s onwards
    Zon Quar: ah..no wonder...
    Mickorod Renard: got my Zons and Zens mixed
    Zon Quar: dont understnd rugby
    arabella Ella: a TV comedy, a rugby team, Zen is irish ... complex stuff u Brits
    Storm Nordwind: One of the lead characters was a hologram called Arnold Rimmer
    Agatha Macbeth: This is true
    Zon Quar: now its late, bye all u rugby fans
    arabella Ella: what was the series called?
    arabella Ella: nite Zon
    Mickorod Renard: bye Zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Red Dwarf, Ara
    Bolonath Crystal: nite zon
    Storm Nordwind: Red Dwarf 1, 2, 3, 4 etc
    Bleu Oleander: bye zon
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon
    Bertram Jacobus: nite zon
    Storm Nordwind waves
    arabella Ella: ah ... heard the name but dont know it
    Agatha Macbeth: Actually, think I will go too, I want to check out Fael's new wings...
    Mickorod Renard: bye Agatha
    Bolonath Crystal: byeagatha
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Bleu Oleander: bfn everyone
    arabella Ella: bye Agatha ... nice new look ... again!
    Agatha Macbeth: Bye all!
    arabella Ella: wings tomorrow?
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Bleu
    arabella Ella: bye Bleu
    Bertram Jacobus: bye agatha
    Bertram Jacobus: bye bleu
    Bolonath Crystal: how did we come from heisenberg to cheers?
    arabella Ella: he he

    Play as Being.
    arabella Ella: oh some news ... there will be another retreat in Malta in January 2012
    arabella Ella: so mark your diaries!
    Storm Nordwind: Well we started with happiness Bolo!
    Storm Nordwind: yay ara!
    arabella Ella: i must be crazy ... but still sounds good and shows i was not put off
    Mickorod Renard: I will ask my work for the time off now,,then they will have had pleanty of warning
    arabella Ella smiles
    arabella Ella: last week of January 2012 for 5 days
    Storm Nordwind: You ARE crazy ara... but you're one of the happy sorts! ;) (Dilbert quote)
    arabella Ella: i dont mind being crazy at all Storm
    arabella Ella: it's fun
    Bolonath Crystal: i hope i can make it to stuttgart in october
    arabella Ella: yes me too i am planning to go to Stuttgart too
    Bertram Jacobus: i try to be there too
    Bolonath Crystal: :)
    arabella Ella: great
    arabella Ella: anyone here going to the SF one?
    Mickorod Renard: not me
    Bertram Jacobus: not me sry :-/
    Storm Nordwind: I will be in Crestone, sorry
    Bolonath Crystal: what is this?
    arabella Ella: there is a list of retreats on the PaB web Bolo
    arabella Ella: one in SF in April
    Storm Nordwind: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Retreats
    arabella Ella: one in CO later
    arabella Ella: one in Holland too
    Bolonath Crystal: oh... sf = san francisco
    arabella Ella: oh and Canada
    Bolonath Crystal: now i got it
    arabella Ella: apologies
    Bolonath Crystal: nm
    arabella Ella: oh apologies again i thought you were from the USA
    arabella Ella: but obviously you are not
    Storm Nordwind: There's an empowerment in Crestone this April that overlaps with the PaB retreat, so I had to choose
    Bolonath Crystal: thank you :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Bolonath Crystal: i won't be around in april
    Bolonath Crystal: i have my own retreat then
    arabella Ella: ah
    arabella Ella: cool
    Bolonath Crystal: beach yoga in thailand :)
    arabella Ella: how lovely
    arabella Ella: may we join you?
    Bolonath Crystal: of course :)
    arabella Ella: (only joking but would be lovely)
    arabella Ella: just wishful thinking
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm sick of winter and need some tropical sun
    Storm Nordwind: I get sunburnt in the winter sun here!
    Bolonath Crystal: here? where are you, storm?
    Storm Nordwind: Colorado, Bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: oh, great
    Storm Nordwind: at 1700m above sealevel
    arabella Ella: some people got a bit sunburnt at the Malta retreat too ... frekles etc
    Mickorod Renard: like me
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Storm Nordwind: The air is so clear that you can always see 100km - unless it's snowing! So the sun is much stronger (Though some say it's just closer to the sun!;)
    arabella Ella: yes i meant your frekles Mick from Malta ... have they gone yet?
    arabella Ella: oh and Yaku too
    Bolonath Crystal: dots close to the nose *ggg* some universal freckles
    arabella Ella: he he


    Bolonath Crystal: i'm off to bed... bfn, om shanti :)
    Bertram Jacobus: nachti bolo
    arabella Ella: nacht Bolo
    Mickorod Renard: bye bolo
    Bertram Jacobus: oommmmm (?) :-)
    arabella Ella: :0
    arabella Ella: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: om or not om - could that be a question ? ;-)
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    arabella Ella: i guess it could Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: a serious one ara ?
    arabella Ella: always serious Bert :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hm. don´t believe that. sry. bad believer ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: ok folks,,I am off home
    arabella Ella whispers ... why dont people believe Ara??!!!
    Bertram Jacobus: what could be the motivation of such a serious question ?
    Bertram Jacobus: and the other thing : that´s normal ara - many people have such experiences. again and again. and then less perhaps. and then more again. and then less again ... until ... that topic "ends" ...
    arabella Ella: yes true ...
    arabella Ella: but i take their dis belief in good nature
    Bertram Jacobus: oh - was bedeutet das bitte ?
    arabella Ella: ah
    Bertram Jacobus: ;-)
    arabella Ella: auf deutche
    Bertram Jacobus: sry please
    Bertram Jacobus: wäre toll ! ;-)
    arabella Ella: ich verstehe dich mit meine gute meinung?
    arabella Ella: (sort of)
    arabella Ella: bad german sorry
    Bertram Jacobus: hmmm
    arabella Ella: i know you said it with good intention not bad ones
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ! ty :-)
    arabella Ella smiles
    arabella Ella: must go now
    arabella Ella: nite Bertram nite Storm
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Bertram Jacobus: bye ara
    Storm Nordwind: Time for me to go too Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: nite
    Bertram Jacobus: bye storm
    Storm Nordwind: Sleep well!
    Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)
    *** For those who have read this far and still don't know what the title was about, "Smells like teen spirit" was an oddly named but very popular 1991 song by a band called Nirvana. Nirvana was a topic in this session. Dream, rhyming (slightly) with teen, was a sub-topic for a while. Spirals, rather than spirit, came in with galaxies and repetition. Not really very funny, when you have to explain it, eh? :)
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