2010.02.19 13:00 - meditation and life experiences

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: so you know that everything around here will be recorded ?
    Aztlan Foss: hehe interesting
    Aztlan Foss: yeah
    Aztlan Foss: been here a few times
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good :)
    Aztlan Foss: fun people
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, also very kind and openminded ones :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bu no special guru´s or somethig :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: do you have some meditation experiences you might be able to share ?
    Aztlan Foss: I don't realy meditate much. I've tried to and mainly I've tried to understand what meditation is
    Yakuzza Lethecus: this is for example the first place where i actually met ppl whom talk about meditation issues at all
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, exactly :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i still like to read about breathing meditation, eating meditation and othe techniques for mindfullness/awareness
    Aztlan Foss: like when I hear about the buddha meditation for like a week and him having those experiences of deamons and realising it's just him an dother things of the sort I think I'm not quiet getting it.
    Aztlan Foss: yeah see I'm still not sure what any of that means
    Aztlan Foss: like if someone tells me "be mindfull" I have no clue what that refers to
    Aztlan Foss: but I guess you can say that about most other "commansd" like "love your neighbor"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: never even heard of that, i just think that we all have meditation experiences by nature when we are very mindfull
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the rest is just words
    Aztlan Foss: I'm like "what does that mean?"
    Aztlan Foss: like "love your neighbor as your self"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i´m like ?
    Aztlan Foss: so now I'm having to figure out if I already love my self or if I'm not doing something right
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you´ll tell me :)
    Aztlan Foss: most of the time I'm not realy thinking how much I love me
    Aztlan Foss: and I'm quite passive about most people
    Aztlan Foss: it's not that I don't care I just think people are people
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sometimes i have the feeling that the meaning is just different from what i would have taken the words in the past
    Yakuzza Lethecus: loving myself would have sounded very negative and egoisic maybe they just mean to enjoy your own appearance and therefore been better able to communicate with others and share the appreciation
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not really good in talking about these topics
    Aztlan Foss: I understand what you mean
    Aztlan Foss: the saying are almost useless because they leave you to figure everything out on your own anyways
    Aztlan Foss: if you don't figure out life by your self you have to figure out what these people mean by what they say
    Aztlan Foss: and once you figure it out they might be wrong
    Aztlan Foss: but I guess any guess is at least moving in a direction
    Aztlan Foss: like when it comes to loving your self I've pretty much figured how to go easy on my self and therefore I should go easy on everyone else
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thats why i like this place, there ain´t no guru´s and its a totally free approach to share issues on our own experiences and or just chat :)
    Aztlan Foss: we all have faults and sometimes we punish our selves emotionally for it and then we punish others for the same.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, true
    Aztlan Foss: I forgot the name of the psychologist, could have been Jung or something. He said something about if we would understand the injustices we do to our selves we would be more careful to push those same injustices twards other people.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least for me it´s right now most important to appreciate life a bit more, especially when you fear of loosing your job and don´t know what securities you might really need
    Aztlan Foss: yeah it's difficult times. I have many friends who are unemployed right now
    Aztlan Foss: and others who don't know if they'll have a job the rest of the year
    Yakuzza Lethecus: everything is or was just running in some way as kind of a routine for me, so i try to understand the processes of my own motivation and the social processes better
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s tricky
    Aztlan Foss: yeah, have you figure out what you realy enjoy?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i think i like the idea of appreciating the moment more
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but it ain´t not working out well often
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i still intoxicate myself with watching american tv shows or what ever :)
    Aztlan Foss: hehehe
    Aztlan Foss: i just read an article yesterday about self control. The experiments showed that self control tends to work like something you can run out of
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but at least i continously try to stay in contact and elaborate on philosophical topics but i noticed that i have deficits in knowledge about the intellectual history
    Aztlan Foss: So, if you use up your self control you'll be more likely not to be able to have self control later on in the day
    Yakuzza Lethecus: like when somebody is mentioning ,,shadows in the cave" sure the person might now it´s from plato´s republic
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i think ,,good analogy" for some ppl that´s just common to know
    Aztlan Foss: oh yeah I know what you mean, it's hard for you to follow along
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but for me these things are relativly knew, so i also try to elaborate on the issue how history and philosophy might structure our mind better in providing us with a good set of metaphors and analogy´s
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
    Aztlan Foss: it's all a work in progress
    Aztlan Foss: sup calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Y & A
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so after i knew a few ppl better here, i noticed that there are even ppl aware of phenomenology, but i can´t make something like that a topic for myself since i still lack the language to talk about our noumenons and phenomena´s :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i even used "curious but incompetent" in my profile in order to sometimes been able just to sound like i would know about the things i would like to elaborate upon but seriously tell them ,,be aware that all i am saying might be wrong"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, it´s work in progress
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how are you cal ?
    Aztlan Foss: yeah the thing is it'll be hard for you to find anyone who is trully right. What we all talk about is just metaphors to communicate what we think and experience and what we deduce based on each ofour scopes
    Calvino Rabeni: Well thanks, it's a sunny day, good spirits
    Aztlan Foss: hey Wol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i gave up on finding ppl whom are truly right
    Wol Euler: hello calvino, yaku, aztlan
    Calvino Rabeni: that makes sense
    Yakuzza Lethecus: openminded and aware of the process that´s good
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wol
    Aztlan Foss: hehe that's a good thing to give up on
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
    Aztlan Foss: hi sophia
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
    Wol Euler: hello bolo, sharon
    Aztlan Foss: hey Bolonath
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bolo,sll
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ssl
    Wol Euler: hello zon
    Aztlan Foss: hey Zon
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zon
    Zon Quar: heya all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Zon
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste zon, bert :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: *gasps* Hi Bert
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bert
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for all newcomers:
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://logs.playasbeing.org/format.p...zza%20Lethecus
    Bertram Jacobus: kaltxì - ehm - sry : hello all (!) ... :-)
    Wol Euler: hehehehe
    Wol Euler: hallo bert
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks Yakuzza
    Bertram Jacobus: ty yaku. and hehe wol :o))
    Zon Quar: bert u look cool
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if Yaku is typing, or the UI is stuck
    Aztlan Foss: he looks calm on my end
    Wol Euler: he looks still to me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too
    Aztlan Foss: he's meditating
    Calvino Rabeni: OK now he types..
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i stopped typing a few minutes ago :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sure :)
    Aztlan Foss: ok Yakuzza so tell us the meaning and purpose of life already
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
    Bertram Jacobus: ty zon. i fell in love with the na´vi people from the movie avatar at the first look at them, especially also here in sl ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: In film, Yaku - what's your favorite
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles at Bert
    Calvino Rabeni: ... cliches, I guess ?
    Zon Quar: ah, havent seen the film yet
    Aztlan Foss: oh you should!
    Aztlan Foss: neat movie
    Calvino Rabeni: Most films have the same type of scenes
    Zon Quar: i have thought is more a question of special technique
    Aztlan Foss: I thought it was a parallel to the south american ayahuasca tribes
    Zon Quar: than a good story
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't see that one. Did it have good titles and opening sequence?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Alfred
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey alfred
    Zon Quar: but perhaps it must bee seen to be able to judge
    Wol Euler: hello alf
    Aztlan Foss: I thought the storie was fine
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i liked alf the series, but not the movie
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste alfred
    Aztlan Foss: most movies these days have heroes and vilains tied to a love story
    Alfred Kelberry: whoa! where did the pagoda go? :)
    Aztlan Foss: but it was also filled with current issues and, like I said, parallels with south american ayahuasca tribes
    Wol Euler: you're standing in front of it. SL is playing sillybuggers again, don't worry
    Aztlan Foss: ayahuasca is also a vine and that's how they communicate with their god forest and ansestors
    Zon Quar: american ayahuasca tribes ?
    Zon Quar: never heard
    Alfred Kelberry: i'll just sit here quietly
    Zon Quar: do they exist today ?
    Aztlan Foss: south american
    Aztlan Foss: I guess american too
    Aztlan Foss: yeah they do
    Aztlan Foss: there's groups of people that even take trip to south america to see what it's all about
    Calvino Rabeni: The vine creates - an effect that seems like telepathy?
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, you can do ayahuasca retreats
    Zon Quar: did the movie have any deeper story or was it just an adventure ?
    Bolonath Crystal: test onetwo onetwo
    Bolonath Crystal: omg, i'm lagging :(
    Aztlan Foss: as far as I can tell it had a very deep meaning
    Aztlan Foss: because I saw a lot of parallels that others didn't get which is the point of the movie
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too Bolo, aI couldnt even log onto Emerald this afternoon
    Aztlan Foss: that when you come from one culture you won't get the meaning and depth of other cultures
    Bertram Jacobus: same here
    Zon Quar: can u tell ur more ?
    Bolonath Crystal: brb
    SophiaSharon Larnia: listens
    Aztlan Foss: during the movie they are trying to negotiate with the Navi by giving them education and goods to move their home
    Aztlan Foss: the ones tryin gto move them want to give them what they think is valuable but the Navi don't find it valueable at all
    Bertram Jacobus: i would say zon, it is a about unity , also with nature ... (and about the possibilities of virtual worlds)
    Aztlan Foss: yeah
    Calvino Rabeni: Why is it about virtual worlds?
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, is it set in a virtual world?
    Aztlan Foss: I like how the protagnist does that prayer saying that the people who are coming killed their mother
    Bertram Jacobus: becuase people use avatars to be on that planet pandora ...
    Bertram Jacobus: while lying on benches, linked with their avatars
    Calvino Rabeni: The avatars are in a real not virtual world?
    Wol Euler: not just you, Bolo, I'm getting up to 9% packet loss :(
    Aztlan Foss: yeah they make avatars with your DNA and the DNA of the navi and they link you up to it so you move the avatar
    Bertram Jacobus: in a real movie world, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: but as avatars
    Calvino Rabeni: so you have 2 RL bodies, in that story
    Bertram Jacobus: like we here
    Calvino Rabeni: but nothing virtual
    Calvino Rabeni: Not like here, this world is virtual
    Calvino Rabeni: but the one in the movie is real
    Bertram Jacobus: but much more developed -
    Bertram Jacobus: it melts into each other
    Bertram Jacobus: "reality and virtuality" ...
    Bertram Jacobus: the old topic : what is illusion, what not (!`?) ... ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) that again ! - haven't we settled it ? :)
    Zon Quar: sounds interesting then...
    Zon Quar: we never settle that..
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i would be interested in that : what did you find out about that ? ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression : all one. and different. just like we look on it. and so much more (!) ...
    Aztlan Foss: huh?
    Bertram Jacobus: very nice play, of being ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: huh ? :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: What if, we are just the icing on the cake of Being?
    Aztlan Foss: hahahahaha
    Wol Euler: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Aztlan Foss: or the cheese on the pizza of being
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahah
    Bolonath Crystal: or the hair in the soup ;)
    Bertram Jacobus: then we´re just the icing on the cake of being
    Aztlan Foss: we are the cake that we eat and also have
    Aztlan Foss: lol
    Aztlan Foss: we are the booger in the nose of existence
    Calvino Rabeni: achooo !
    SophiaSharon Larnia wonders if consciousness is being, and if be-ing is consciousness, so before be-ing, there was pre-be
    Zon Quar: was there ever someting before being ?
    Bertram Jacobus: i play a na´vi character at the moment, accompanying the pab group - whether that can be bad ? ... ;-) (rhetorical)
    Aztlan Foss: yeah that's a good question, in an AI class we tried to figure that one out
    SophiaSharon Larnia wonders
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression is : being was already since ever
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Zon Quar: being is
    Aztlan Foss: one way to see it is if matter brings consiousness to life or if matter exists because of consiousness
    Bertram Jacobus: and a short time ago i heard : conciousness is a quality of being
    Aztlan Foss: I'd say first there was consiousness
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes matter arising because of consciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a play - a song and dance between doing and being - expressed in the esoteric words of the song - "Do Be Do Be Do"
    Bertram Jacobus: i´d say there is no "first"
    Aztlan Foss: so would that make consiousness immaterial?
    Zon Quar: which was first,,hen or egg ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and there are many things i don´t know ... can accept it . it´s fine . may be will be figured out may be not
    Zon Quar: can anything be first if all is always
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s it zon ! thought the same - and the answer is : none - my logic tells me ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you OK with the possibility - (1) it will never be known, (2) the question doesn't make sense
    Bertram Jacobus: none of both
    Zon Quar: both
    Aztlan Foss: i don't think i've figured out if the question is worth asking
    Aztlan Foss: but it's something to do
    Bertram Jacobus: there were always eggs and hens ... okay - for sometimes may be not in that special form , but as very real principles, material
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok with the possibility, that possibilities are probobilities, of which are infinite
    Calvino Rabeni: What would make that a worthwhile question the?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so somewhere thereis an answer lol
    Calvino Rabeni: *then?
    Aztlan Foss: hey take it easy my mind is blowing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: okies
    Zon Quar: hen annd egg were born at the same time
    Bertram Jacobus: i think it makes sense when one likes it. these questions and thinking, playing with it
    Zon Quar: like 2 sides of teh coin
    SophiaSharon Larnia likes to play with it :)
    Bertram Jacobus: :-))
    Aztlan Foss: yeah the playing bit works for me
    Wol Euler: wb yaku
    Calvino Rabeni: Hen and egg - "what is it about a life process, that a hen and an egg would come together"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (even if I'm wrong)
    Bertram Jacobus likes it in a special amount. not too much not too little ;-)
    Aztlan Foss: i could watch TV or I could figure out if consiusness brings matter in to existence
    Calvino Rabeni: Or both at once
    Bertram Jacobus: may be you never know aztlan - what, then ?
    Aztlan Foss: nah I can only do one at a time :(
    SophiaSharon Larnia: exactly my thought Aztlan
    Aztlan Foss: I'm not that smart
    Aztlan Foss: thinking is entertainment in and of it's self zbertram
    Zon Quar: talking i s like throwing koans in the air..nice game to palay
    Aztlan Foss: just as good as TV but probably more rewarding
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression is, we don´t find thyt out by thinkin
    Aztlan Foss: at least for me it's been.
    Bertram Jacobus: that*
    Aztlan Foss: someone here the other day was saying your brain does most of the thinking for you
    Aztlan Foss: what we're aware of is just a fraction of what's going on
    Aztlan Foss: which makes sense, sometimes I'll have a problem I'm tryin got solve so I leave it for later
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m a pragmatic type ... love results, experiences ...
    Aztlan Foss: and later on durring a dinner or something I'm tryin gto explain something totally unrelated to someone and there goes the answer flying in to view
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. such can happen. we all may know
    Aztlan Foss: which is very cool, It's like I got a secretary in my head doing my work
    Wol Euler nods.
    Bertram Jacobus: "but" - on which ways ever : isn´t feeling the most important ?
    Aztlan Foss: now how do I hook that part of to a computer so it'll do my work while I enjoy doing other things?
    Aztlan Foss: I'm thinking of enslaving that part of my brain
    Calvino Rabeni: If you did that, you'd just have more work added to your load
    Aztlan Foss: how? my work will be done for me by me, I could just enjoy what I usually enjoy anyways
    Calvino Rabeni: Your work depends on your capacity
    Zon Quar: being called, bye all
    Calvino Rabeni: if you raised your capacity in some way, your work would increase
    Wol Euler: bye zon
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    Aztlan Foss: bye Zon
    Bertram Jacobus: bye zon
    Wol Euler: take care
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Zon :)
    Aztlan Foss: I dunno, maybe. But most of my work involves problem solving and coding. If a part of my brain that I'm not a ware of can do it just as well as be being held up thinking about it and doing it then I can just delegate that work to that part of my brain and go snowboard or something.
    Calvino Rabeni: you would get the work of validating the result then
    Aztlan Foss: hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: and the load would increase exponentially, and you validating requirement along with it
    Bertram Jacobus: some say : one question solved - two new ones appear
    SophiaSharon Larnia: 'capacity' implies to me that you're born with a certain ability to raise your skill set.
    Aztlan Foss: I'd have to keep an eye on that part of the brain huh?
    Aztlan Foss: I'll end up being a manager
    Calvino Rabeni: Yep
    Calvino Rabeni: You'd be come a self-manager
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Yakuzza
    Aztlan Foss: bye Yakuzza
    Calvino Rabeni: which of course we already are :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Yaku-san
    Bertram Jacobus: nighty nite yaku :-)
    Aztlan Foss: damh Calvino, you brought me back to square one
    Bolonath Crystal: nite yak. i'm off, too
    Aztlan Foss: bye bolonath
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Bolonath
    Calvino Rabeni: no free lunch?
    Wol Euler: bye bolo, yaku
    Bertram Jacobus: nighty nite bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: bye all :) om shanti
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: See, "we" are in an ecology of mind
    Aztlan Foss: you know if consiousness is required existence can computer ever become consious?
    Aztlan Foss: or would we just have to create consiousness "gateways"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or is there a continuum?
    Aztlan Foss: what do you mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: Seeing through the eyes of other consciousnesses, maybe some partly artificial
    Calvino Rabeni: kind of a gateway, but also an expansion of own consciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps the movie suggested something like that
    Calvino Rabeni: You plug in to the bigger mind
    Calvino Rabeni: which is partly organic, partly artificial
    Calvino Rabeni: then "mind" is kind of a continuum
    Aztlan Foss: is anything realy artificial?
    Calvino Rabeni: as you can't say, where you and and it begins
    Aztlan Foss: we're natural so anything we do is natural
    Calvino Rabeni: Just as you can't say exactly, where is an "idea" located
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, a natural machine consciousness - maybe
    Aztlan Foss: yeah, like wher was that problem I was tryin gto solve when it got solved and where was the answer when I couldn' see it?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or even, where was it when you *could* see it
    Aztlan Foss: i don't know. maybe we're just storage devices for the universe
    Aztlan Foss: and when we die it's like the hard drive broke
    Calvino Rabeni: or projection fields for a hologram
    Aztlan Foss: who knows maybe eventually we can make an immortal mind and that's our purpose and that's why we're pushing AI
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow at the word "purpose"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Aztlan Foss: well I don't have a problem with purpose when we choose what we're aiming to do
    Aztlan Foss: I sometimes sit down to make music. The purpose for me to do that is entertainment
    Wol Euler: sure, that is true of you as a single person making a momentary choice.
    Calvino Rabeni: Purpose is a fine, handy, important concept :)
    Wol Euler: the word has a different flavour when you talk about something involving thousands of peopel and a few dozen years
    Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV
    Aztlan Foss: yeah like we build houses for the purpose of living in them
    Bertram Jacobus: "ok" - i´ll leave - have a good time all - and ty for the meeting !
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bert :)
    Wol Euler: bye bert, have a nice weekend
    Aztlan Foss: bye
    Bertram Jacobus: ty all, again ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    Aztlan Foss: but yeah I totally get that the universe as a whole most likely has no purpose so it's not like it has a plan for us
    Calvino Rabeni: It might have a purpose, from our point of view
    Aztlan Foss: well I have heard people suggest the universe it's self is thinks
    Aztlan Foss: or is consious
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, you mean, other then the evident way it thinks and is conscious through us?
    Aztlan Foss: and the argument is something like, if we're tiny balls of matter and we are consious why can't the universe as an enourmous ball of matter ben consious too
    Calvino Rabeni: The enormous ball might have some tiny conscious blobs
    Calvino Rabeni: called, sentient beings, which people maybe a subset
    Aztlan Foss: yeah like "we are the universe thinking" thing?
    Calvino Rabeni: yeah
    Aztlan Foss: yeah I like that one a lot
    Calvino Rabeni: it sees itself, throughy us
    Calvino Rabeni: a pretty amazing trick :)
    Aztlan Foss: I am the universe I feel so big :-)
    Aztlan Foss: how'd I squeeze my self in this little ball of flesh?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Aztlan Foss: it's like a magic trick
    Wol Euler: you and Walt Whitman :)
    Aztlan Foss: you know if I was a universe and was bored I'd probably figure out existence to entertain my self so it all makes sense now
    Aztlan Foss: what I still don't get is why this need of suffering?
    Calvino Rabeni: When you are *actually* bored, just what is going on at that time?
    Aztlan Foss: if I'm the universe I should be able to decide to just do away with that
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever discovered, boredom is an extremely interesting state of affairs?
    Wol Euler grins
    Wol Euler grins
    Aztlan Foss: when I was a kid it was torturous but it's realy been a long time since I was bored
    Alfred Kelberry: boredom can kill you
    Aztlan Foss: it's that bad?
    Alfred Kelberry: it can be
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I saw some of those studies Alfred
    Calvino Rabeni: Who is it, being bored?
    Calvino Rabeni: It takes a great amount of energy to be that unnatural
    Calvino Rabeni: lots of control
    SophiaSharon Larnia: http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/2010020...-kill-you.html
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Alfred Kelberry: see? :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Aztlan Foss: thanks!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'd like to get my hands on the data though, see what else is there
    Calvino Rabeni: One useful idea is that boredom is an emotional fixation
    Alfred Kelberry: wol is looking beautifuly black today :)
    Wol Euler: thank you, alf :)
    Aztlan Foss: you a scientist Sophia?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no
    Aztlan Foss: not even as a hobby?
    Calvino Rabeni: Your outfit Wol is suggestive
    Alfred Kelberry: of what?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, as a hobby, and had to take quite a few classes
    Wol Euler wonders what that means
    Alfred Kelberry: cal, do share :)
    Aztlan Foss: sounds like a pretty intense hobby
    SophiaSharon Larnia: on research methods etc
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, just to look at it - a black veil is symbolic of a funeral
    Wol Euler struggles valiantly against the chatlag monster :/
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ;/
    Alfred Kelberry: sophia, sorry, i was referring to cal and his suggestive comment :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and the fishnet and spikes symbolic of other things
    Alfred Kelberry: ah, a black widow
    Calvino Rabeni: all together, and interesting package
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, was answering Aztlan
    Wol Euler: how interesting, I didn't think of that at all.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, black widow
    Calvino Rabeni: Insect like appendages too
    Wol Euler grins.
    Calvino Rabeni: This black widow appears to be attracting a new mate, also
    Aztlan Foss: so is an unstopable thirst to try to figure things out genetic?
    Wol Euler: I saw it as life affirming, actually, didn't think of funerals at all.
    Alfred Kelberry: wol, that's the kind of comments i get on mark kozelek, as of him being depressing and sad. and i just don't see it this way :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting difference
    Wol Euler googles Mark Kozelek :)
    Alfred Kelberry: :P
    Calvino Rabeni: Things can be dark and life affirming at the same time
    Alfred Kelberry: he's a rather testament of life and its peculiarities in all forms for me
    Aztlan Foss: Mark Kozelek?
    Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Kozelek
    Wol Euler: I've never heard of anyone named in that article :)
    Wol Euler: must be getting old, or set in my ways
    Alfred Kelberry giggles
    Alfred Kelberry: i can give you a few names, woly :)
    Alfred Kelberry: mostly indie-folk-rock kind of stuff
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all, see you later :)
    Aztlan Foss: bye sophia
    Wol Euler: bye sharon, take care
    Calvino Rabeni: Who has time for music, when we haven't figured out the business about matter and conscionsness yet ? :)
    Aztlan Foss: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: just joking of course
    Wol Euler: well, given that we never will figure it out: who *doesn't* hvae time for music?
    Calvino Rabeni: How do you decide, what to do with your attention
    Alfred Kelberry: music is an essential part of life. i wonder if we could ever live without it.
    Wol Euler: deaf people do.
    Wol Euler: tone-deaf people too :)
    Aztlan Foss: poor def people ;(
    Aztlan Foss: next time you go to an SL club just turn off your speakers
    Aztlan Foss: ok so far I'm the universe right?
    Aztlan Foss: and I make music
    Calvino Rabeni: You may think me stunted, but recorded music is of nearly zero importance to me
    Calvino Rabeni: I listen to live occasionally
    Aztlan Foss: live is cool
    Calvino Rabeni: and like to create it sometimes
    Aztlan Foss: big sound
    Alfred Kelberry: play something to us, cal
    Aztlan Foss: so what's with the "we're all one" idea
    Aztlan Foss: are we using that here?
    Aztlan Foss: like, if I make music for other people am I just entertaining my self
    Wol Euler: "stunted" is not a concept that I would use.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, one says we might die without it
    Wol Euler: without music?
    Wol Euler: o.O
    Alfred Kelberry: imagine a movie without sound. one visual picture can't move as much.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I could live on a desert island with no media whatsoever
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd probably spend some time singing and dancing, though
    Wol Euler: if I had to choose, I'd rather have a few good books than a collection of music on my desert island
    Alfred Kelberry: or listen to local tribes doing that, cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: if you count birds and surf as music, there's a lot on the playbill
    Wol Euler: that's a terrible facelight, Aztlan, it's far too bright. Let me give you a better one.
    Aztlan Foss: i have a face light?
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe he has a flashlight in his nose :)
    Wol Euler: you do.
    Aztlan Foss: ok did that fix it?
    Wol Euler: no, you still have the old one on (perhaps as well)
    Wol Euler: there!
    Wol Euler: that's gone
    Aztlan Foss: ok cool
    Wol Euler: muuuuuuch better!
    Aztlan Foss: hehe thanks and sorry
    Wol Euler: chat lag :/
    Aztlan Foss: i got my graphics way down so I don't see glows
    Wol Euler: it's adjustable, you can set the intensity to suit the mood :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Nature's music - I was sitting on a pile of boulders, and noticed one was suspended on others like a giant xylophone bar, and when stuck, it would ring out with a musical tone.
    Wol Euler: ah!
    Calvino Rabeni: Another place - glass mountain - when you walk, all the stones make a chime
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Calvino Rabeni: And then there are "singing dunes" in the sahara desert
    Calvino Rabeni: None of which can be easily packaged and distributed for fame, fun, or profit however
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: I can imagine a CD of such sounds.
    Calvino Rabeni: Could be nice
    Calvino Rabeni: Found Sounds
    Alfred Kelberry: there are cds of "ocean waves", "tropic forest", etc. i'm sure some of them... here you go, wol :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Aztlan Foss: i like birds
    Calvino Rabeni: Crows even?
    Aztlan Foss: █ IⓉ'§ Mⓔ Bⓘtⓒhⓔ§ █
    Wol Euler: I have a CD of birdsong, a nightingale recorded in the forest. Just thaat, an hour long :)
    Aztlan Foss: looks for chirping audio
    Wol Euler: it's lovely.
    Aztlan Foss: h cool
    Aztlan Foss: just one nightingale?
    Alfred Kelberry: i got my own records of those :)
    Wol Euler: I wouldn't swear that it is one single take of one bird, but htere are no other sounds except wind.
    Calvino Rabeni: BTW, Bert's plot in the village has a good music stream now - I was listening to it last night - we had a short group sit there, very nice
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Calvino Rabeni: The style is ambient chill
    Aztlan Foss: nice!
    Calvino Rabeni: I like open mic events in SL
    Aztlan Foss: where do they got those?
    Alfred Kelberry: gotta go folks
    Calvino Rabeni: This just in -
    Calvino Rabeni: Come all you lion-hearted to the open mic at 3 pm. Get your original or favourite poems and headset ready. Event will be in voice :) http://slurl.com/secondlife/Lionhear...baa/161/128/28
    Alfred Kelberry: enjoy the sound of being
    Aztlan Foss: bye Alfred
    Wol Euler: bye alf, take care
    Alfred Kelberry: hej da :)
    Aztlan Foss: thanks cal
    Calvino Rabeni: I however have to do "work". And make "phone calls".
    Aztlan Foss: and answer "emails"
    Calvino Rabeni: That too :) See you later, TY for the chat/
    Wol Euler: ah well, no rest for the wicked :-P
    Calvino Rabeni: All in quotes however :)
    Calvino Rabeni: bye for now
    Aztlan Foss: bye cal
    Aztlan Foss: you're wicked too Wol?
    Wol Euler: bye cal
    Wol Euler: no, I am resting.
    Aztlan Foss: today was kinda interesting haven't been here when the conversations jump so much
    Wol Euler: well, they jump more when people push them about :)
    Aztlan Foss: hehehe
    Aztlan Foss: when I've been here the topics are very focused
    Aztlan Foss: so do hosts have a schedule they have to be here at?
    Wol Euler: yes, the meetings are every six hours, 1am 7am 1pm 7pm
    Wol Euler: and people are assigned specific slots
    Wol Euler: (volunteer for...)
    Aztlan Foss: what attracted you to this place? or you one of the people that started it?
    Wol Euler: oh no, I was one of hte second wave :)
    Wol Euler: I was brought here by a friend, and liked the discussion.
    Aztlan Foss: there was a second wave?
    Wol Euler: I found the practices useful in dealing with stress and unhappiness in RL
    Aztlan Foss: the not doing anything for 90 seconds?
    Wol Euler: nine seconds :)
    Aztlan Foss: it's just 9?
    Wol Euler: and various mindfulness explorations
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: did nobody give you the notecard?
    Aztlan Foss: yeah and I glanced over it so I get the idea
    Aztlan Foss: but haven't gotten the mindfulness explorations
    Wol Euler: well, one might say that it's all about mindfulness.
    Wol Euler: I meant other practices than the nine seconds.
    Wol Euler: APAPB, Appreciate the Presence of Appearance as a Presentation of Being
    Wol Euler: YSBS, You seeing, Being seeing
    Wol Euler: and the workshops have brought out many other explorations
    Aztlan Foss: so what is it about this that's made it easier for you to deal with unhappiness in RL?
    Wol Euler: two things, learning practical techniques of breathing and concentration
    Wol Euler: and metaphysical techniques of mind-clearing and avoiding value judgements
    Aztlan Foss: value judgements? were you thinking some things were more important than you should have considered them?
    Wol Euler: mmmmmm, not exactly.
    Wol Euler: the problem isn't assigning the wrong valuation, but simply the act of assigning value at all.
    Wol Euler: specifically, though, I had been taking other people's valuations as being intrinsically "true"
    Aztlan Foss: people talking bad about you?
    Wol Euler: whereas they are of course just opinion, as mine are.
    Wol Euler: yes but not just that.
    Wol Euler: handing out blame or praise, both equally distracting and irrelevant
    Wol Euler: I found myself spending more mental and emotional energy on what people said about what was happening
    Wol Euler: than on the actual events and actions
    Wol Euler: which is silly.
    Aztlan Foss: I sometimes find people imagine more than is realy going on.
    Wol Euler: that too!
    Wol Euler: but they take their imagination as a true representation of the world
    Wol Euler: which also causes all kinds of interpersonal stress (and internal too)
    Aztlan Foss: yeah i've strugled with that too, especially in familly situations
    Aztlan Foss: my mom and sister have never gotten along and they'rej ust differences in what they think is important.
    Aztlan Foss: so they both come visit to get me to solve the issues and they both think there is a problem but I tell them the only problem I see is that they think there's a problem
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: I somehow doubt that this makes them happy -- although it should!
    Aztlan Foss: well I can't make them happy
    Aztlan Foss: I kinda just try to keep my self in a comfortable bubble and people tend to catch on to it
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Aztlan Foss: when people come visit I pretty much just try to make it an environment where their problems are irrelevent
    Aztlan Foss: and for some it seems to help them out a lot because they are afraid to face other people since they feel all these insecurities
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aztlan Foss: and I enjoy the company I get to show them stuff i've found or music I think is cool
    Aztlan Foss: have you ever thought that one day everyone will just "get it"
    Wol Euler: heh
    Wol Euler: frankly, no.
    Aztlan Foss: but there's that "get it" thing right?
    Wol Euler: it would be lovely, but I do not believe that it will happen.
    Wol Euler: nothing stands in our way except ourselves.
    Aztlan Foss: I don't know what it is but I've met quire a lot of people who kinda get what i'm saying
    Aztlan Foss: but nobody can realy explain the "it"
    Aztlan Foss: I think it's that feeling wheny you think you're on to figuring something out but you're not sure what it is you're figuring out
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: that's how you know that it's truly something new.
    Aztlan Foss: it's a happy feeling like my brain is yawning
    Wol Euler: :)
    Aztlan Foss: and I'm very sure it's not unique, it's one of those universal experience but maybe not everyone gets to feel it or maybe some people don't give it much mind.
    Wol Euler: perhaps they don't notice, or don't consider it worth noticing
    Aztlan Foss: why do you think people seek happiness
    Aztlan Foss: because it feels good?
    Wol Euler: I'm not sure that significant numbers of people*do* seek it.
    Wol Euler: I suspect that many people go through life trying to avoid pain, with no other goal.
    Aztlan Foss: is that realy all they do?
    Wol Euler: perhaps I'm just cynical
    Wol Euler: no, of course not :)
    Wol Euler: but the convention of discussion requires simplification
    Aztlan Foss: yeah I was going to say I think people mostly end up keeping their experience to themselves because they don't think people can understand the subtleties
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: though as you said these experiences are far commoner than people think
    Wol Euler: if they were to begin to discuss them, they would be surprised by the positive resonance
    Wol Euler: which again brings us to the unexamined life of habit.
    Wol Euler: "I don't talk about those things because I don't talk about those things."
    Aztlan Foss: yeah or you don't know if someone is open to certain topics
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aztlan Foss: i've talked to people who won't consider any topic dealing with God no matter how creative the idea might be
    Aztlan Foss: no matter how un-christian I put it
    Aztlan Foss: they hold on to the stigma of the christian god
    Aztlan Foss: even here in SL when I'm at the info hubs I find it hard to start convesations with people
    Wol Euler: heh
    Wol Euler: there's an expression in sociology/anthropology for that, which I can't bring to mind
    Wol Euler: something like "value rigidity"
    Aztlan Foss: what's it about?
    Wol Euler: having once made up one's mind, one cannot change it.
    Wol Euler: well, the ideal example is the way you catch monkeys :)
    Wol Euler: you get a large and very tough glass bottle wiht a neck large enough for a monkey's hand to go in.
    Wol Euler: and you put some fruit and nuts in the jar, and walk away.
    Wol Euler: monkey sees fruit, puts hand in, grabs fruit --- and is caught!
    Wol Euler: because its fist with fruit no longer fits through the neck of hte bottle
    Wol Euler: the monkey is unable to re-evaluate its desire for fruit against its higher need to be free
    Wol Euler: so you just walk up nice and slowly and grab it, as it struggles to get the fruit out of the bottle
    Wol Euler: the analogy being: people who think they know what God is, are unable to hear other ideas about what God might be
    Aztlan Foss: or anything for that matter
    Aztlan Foss: i've noticed people invest a lot in their ideas
    Wol Euler: sure, not just god, though religion is one of the prime flashpoints.
    Wol Euler: if you listen to programmers discussing different coding languages :)
    Aztlan Foss: hehehe
    Aztlan Foss: oh man, those are the modern day religious wars
    Aztlan Foss: or operating systms
    Wol Euler: we tend to mistake our preferences for essential parts of ourselves.
    Wol Euler: and think that if you reject my preferred language, you are rejecting *me*
    Aztlan Foss: I was trying to explain that to a friend the other day
    Aztlan Foss: she had a friend who would put down any music that wasn't her prefered genere and if someone also like what her friend like her friend would want to be the first to have liked what ever band.
    Wol Euler: heh
    Aztlan Foss: especially though highschoool wthat was common
    Wol Euler: well, I must be honest, I was like that too 35 years ago :)
    Aztlan Foss: so what I thougt was that they were just trying to get value through other peope's work
    Aztlan Foss: you were 18-ish 35 years ago?
    Wol Euler: roughly :)
    Aztlan Foss: I think when someone admires something, when they are young, they will try to be admired the same so they will claim some type of ownership over what they admire and say "look at this it's great, love it and admire me for being the one who brought it to you"
    Aztlan Foss: i think people just want that same admiration they are having for what they like
    Aztlan Foss: which is fine I guess, people want to be apretiated but it's a flimsy mechanism to aquire admiration
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: well, in fairness, it takes time and effort to acquire other ways
    Aztlan Foss: i'm 29 now but I feel like highschool happened just last year still
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: I rarely feel my age. Inside, I'm about your age.
    Wol Euler: my mother, who is pushing 80, says the same
    Aztlan Foss: i believe you. I like the idea of getting stuck at a certain age in your mind
    Aztlan Foss: you just kinda improve on what you've got but fundamentally you age a lot less quicklly than your body
    Wol Euler: what also happens, and this is a great relief, is that it becomes increasingly un-important
    Aztlan Foss: oh good!
    Aztlan Foss: I think I was most anxious about aging wihen I was 24 or 25, aproaching 30
    Wol Euler: the difference between 20 and 25 feels huge, the difference between 40 and 80 is trivial
    Aztlan Foss: now 30 doesn't feel too bad, I thought I was going to loose that "kid" thing and I would turn in to an adult
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Wol Euler: that is entirely up to you.
    Aztlan Foss: hehehe maybe it's not
    Aztlan Foss: when I turn 30 this year I doubt I'll feel much different over night
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: I loved 30. It was such a relief.
    Aztlan Foss: like being scared of getting a shot and once it happens you're like "that was it?"
    Wol Euler: yep
    Aztlan Foss: a rel good friend of mine is 74 now and she was saying getting older it just gets easier to be happier
    Wol Euler: true
    Wol Euler: well, it can be true if you want it to be, and if you let it.
    Aztlan Foss: how has that worked out for you? she was saying she think when you're younger you care more about your boundaries and rules but as you're older you loosen up
    Wol Euler: absolutely.
    Wol Euler: as you get older, you are less dependent on what others think
    Aztlan Foss: but people still seem to have these rigid rules about what older people can and can't do
    Wol Euler: sure.
    Wol Euler: the question to ask is, what do these people's rules have to do with me?
    Wol Euler: will I let them rule my life?
    Wol Euler: do I -- if we can speak really plainly for a moment -- give a shit?
    Aztlan Foss: hehe well probably not you
    Wol Euler: :)
    Aztlan Foss: the other day I was talling a friend we should go to a rave but her girlfriend was like "you guys shouldn't be doing that any more you're grown adults!"
    Wol Euler: pffffthbbt
    Aztlan Foss: crazy right?
    Wol Euler: what a fearful person :)
    Aztlan Foss: and the other day I read an article of some guy saying that once you hit 30 you shouldn't ride a skateboard any more
    Wol Euler snorts
    Aztlan Foss: are these just people who get stuck growing up?
    Wol Euler: they are rather people who got stuck at age 11.
    Wol Euler: in the middle of the frightened-little-herd-animal phase of development
    Wol Euler: which we all go through, it's fine, but most of us do go *through* it and out the other end.
    Aztlan Foss: that's a cool way to see it
    Wol Euler: I can remember being just like that, terrified to be in any way different from my peers.
    Wol Euler: that's something else that happens as you get older, the "should"s start falling away
    Wol Euler: it is so liberating!
    Wol Euler: being able to give up stuff, to say "I will never have to do that again"
    Aztlan Foss: or just doing the things that you do want to do with out the shouldn't
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: like rollerboarding at age 31.
    Wol Euler: pah.
    Aztlan Foss: hahaha
    Aztlan Foss: yeah skateboard if you want Wol
    Wol Euler grins
    Aztlan Foss: hae you been married?
    Wol Euler: no
    Wol Euler: if I were to have regrets, that would be one of them
    Wol Euler shrugs.
    Aztlan Foss: realy?
    Wol Euler: yes, I think I would have been a good parent and I'm sorry to have missed that.
    Wol Euler: and you?
    Aztlan Foss: haven't been married and I'm actually thinking of never getting married
    Wol Euler: why (if I may ask)?
    Aztlan Foss: I think it's mostly to do with the great amount of life changing choices that have to be made
    Aztlan Foss: with marriage comes the choice of children
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: though it is possible to be married without, and also to have kids wihtout marrying ...
    Aztlan Foss: so it's not even about finding a partner it's about, if I decide to have children, to have a mom for my kids
    Aztlan Foss: yeah it's possible but I wouldn't want to throw a kid in to the world just for kicks
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Aztlan Foss: like my ex, at least for a while, was a cool partner but I would have NEVER had kids with her
    Aztlan Foss: I just didn't think she'd make a good mom
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aztlan Foss: so actively seeking to get marrie seems like a complicated thing to do
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: or you could just see what happens ... you're young and male, you have lots of time and options still
    Aztlan Foss: yeah that's another thing I'm not under too much time pressure
    Aztlan Foss: I see the friends ofmine who have gotten married and I don't see them being much happier
    Wol Euler: there's a famous and lovely photo of Picasso on the beach at age 63 or so, with his son aged 2.
    Aztlan Foss: ohwow
    Wol Euler: frankly, I believe that doing *anything* because you expect it to make you happy, is doomed to failure.
    Aztlan Foss: yeah guys can just find younger girls to have children with
    Aztlan Foss: that's a good rule of thumb
    Wol Euler: happiness is a byproduct of being busy doing worthwhile things.
    Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV :)
    Aztlan Foss: :-)
    Aztlan Foss: the reasons people have children seem a bit unconsidereate to the child
    Aztlan Foss: one of the reasons people have children is that they want to be parents or their parent want grandchildren
    Aztlan Foss: which doesn't factor in having a child for the child's own sake
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, which is a lousy way to deal with one's own life, let alone the poor kids
    Aztlan Foss: yeah it's like, they forget the child's in this too
    Aztlan Foss: almost like saying "I want a car... and a baby"
    Wol Euler: they are accessories to some people, sadly.
    Aztlan Foss: I wonderd if I have a kid and he asks me why I decided to have him, what would I tell me?
    Aztlan Foss: or if he asks me the meaning of life.
    Wol Euler grins.
    Wol Euler: "42"
    Aztlan Foss: I'll be like "i don't know I thought it'd be a good idea, go talk to the PaB people"
    Aztlan Foss: hahahaha
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Aztlan Foss: and I'd have a big problem deciding what to teach him as to right and wrong and what to do and not to do
    Wol Euler: really?
    Aztlan Foss: yeah
    Wol Euler: that surprises me greatly.
    Aztlan Foss: why?
    Wol Euler: perhaps I approach these things too simply. To me, right and wrong are very simple and clear -- in most practical cases.
    Wol Euler: I know about the philosophical problems of standing on a bridge beside a fat man, do you push him to his death to save 10 others etc etc etc
    Wol Euler: that's just sophistry.
    Aztlan Foss: yeah but what if he's like "I want to live life to the fullest I'm going out with my buddies jumping off cliffs with a winged suit"
    Wol Euler: well, you have to trust yourself to have brought him up right :)
    Wol Euler: as your parents did.
    Wol Euler: because you cannot stop him from doing it, if he wants to.
    Aztlan Foss: but kids will have their own ideas
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: but that is not a problem...
    Aztlan Foss: something tells me we'd have discussions on what we each think is the way to go and I also have to consider he/she would have to try things I never did to see if they work for them
    Wol Euler: sure, as you did with your parents :)
    Aztlan Foss: I did a lot of drugs in my earlier 20's and I'm glad I jumped in that
    Wol Euler: were your parents worried about that?
    Aztlan Foss: i never told them they'd have a heart attack
    Aztlan Foss: but now I have trouble communicating everything they missed
    Aztlan Foss: I have to communicate some ideas abstractly
    Wol Euler nods.
    Aztlan Foss: where certain other people I can point right to the experience
    Aztlan Foss: it was very enriching and I think many other people can benefit for certain things in it, plus I also got lists of precautions and all that other good stuff
    Wol Euler: :)
    Aztlan Foss: so I understand the "don't do it because it's dangerous" fears but there's also people out there exploring and taking precautions and things in to consideration
    Aztlan Foss: you know now that I think about it I think I'd just show them how to figure things out
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Wol Euler: that's the best you can do, and about all you can do really :)
    Wol Euler: give them the tools to make decisions with, and let them go.
    Aztlan Foss: yeah plus I'd be less restrictive and more open to suggestions then how I was raised
    Aztlan Foss: maybe when I'm 60 :-P
    Wol Euler: :)
    Aztlan Foss: ok well I need to go pick up my nephew from the babysitter
    Aztlan Foss: thanks for the convo
    Wol Euler: my pleasure,thank you too.
    Wol Euler: enjoy the weekend.
    Aztlan Foss: you too
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