2010.02.20 19:00 - Completely Uncharted Territory

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    Pema Pera: Hi Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Good to see you again!
    Bleu Oleander: yes, you too!
    Bleu Oleander: how is everything going?
    Pema Pera: I haven't been in much the last ten days or so, with a one-week trip to Japan distracting me
    Pema Pera: in a pleasant way, that is :)
    Bleu Oleander: are you back now?
    Pema Pera: but I'm now catching up with my life back home
    Pema Pera: How are things with you?
    Pema Pera: Hi TH !
    Bleu Oleander: great
    Pema Pera: hi Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Bleu Oleander: hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Blue, nice to see you again (I think we met)
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Bleu Oleander: have you met TH?
    TH Ordinary: hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, he just appeared, acctually
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    TH Ordinary: hi Yak!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Yakuzza
    Pema Pera: hi Yaku!
    Pema Pera: I haven't been visiting much lately -- is there any particular highlight in the discussions that I missed, that you can think of off hand?
    I didn't get a response to my question, perhaps because of the new arrival, but I would ask again the next morning at 8 am during the weekly guardian meeting.  Meanwhile, a more interesting topic was raised, the recent interview with Sharon.
    Pema Pera: hi Sharon!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Sharon, jsut read your chronical :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ssl
    Bleu Oleander: hi Sharon
    TH Ordinary: hi Sharon
    Pema Pera: yes, Sharon, I read it too -- great piece, AND thank you SO MUCH for becoming our new chronicler ! ! !
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks :) but it belongs to all of us I think,
    Bleu Oleander: where is your chronical?
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Chronicles/The_Chapter_16%3a_SophiaSharon_Larnia_%28An_Announcement%29
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its not mine yet :0 but in the play as being wiki
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I havent seen you for ages Pema :))
    Pema Pera: yes, I've been away for about ten days
    Pema Pera: I think that counts as ages in SL !
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! it does
    Pema Pera: I had a one-week trip to Japan, and the last few days I've been scrambling to catch up with my RL, after returning
    Pema Pera: but hey, Sharon, you definitely should come visit me for lunch in RL, some day soon!
    Pema Pera: ideally, before my next travels start :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) now that the snow is melting!
    Pema Pera: we're less than an hours driving away
    Bleu Oleander: are you in Princeton Sharon?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no, near philadelphia, pa
    TH Ordinary: how is the san francisco retreat coming?
    Pema Pera: I especially enjoyed reading the end of your interview Sharon, when ELiza turned an Adams trick question on you :)
    Pema Pera: I really liked the way you dealt with that!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i wasnt prepared for that one
    Pema Pera: It's coming along, TH; see http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Retreats/2010-04_California
    Pema Pera: that made it more fun, Sharon :)
    TH Ordinary: great, i will take a look
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
    Pema Pera: Hi Calvino
    Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hey alll!
    TH Ordinary: hi Calvino
    Back to the interview with Sharon:
    Pema Pera: I especially liked what you said "To find the voice that I have lost", Sharon -- I think we all know about that kind of experience; we all have been inspired deeply at some special times in our lives, only to find that it was surprisingly difficult to integrate what we saw into our normal life . . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the interview alone makes me feel self-conscious
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Pema Pera: next time you can do the questioning!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yay :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm I've stayed in the hotel the SF retreat is at, a very nice place, lovely surroundings
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow so you know the terrain
    Pema Pera: ah, good to hear a second opinion! What did you specially like about it, Steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: near a very interesting pagota that reminds me of this playgota
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: we can play as Play as Being then!
    stevenaia Michinaga: the japanese tubs in the rooms :)
    Pema Pera: !
    stevenaia Michinaga: very different than most hotels
    Pema Pera: Did you visit Kabuki or Tomo?
    Pema Pera: there are two for which we're reserving blocks of rooms -- they are under the same ownership
    Pema Pera: but they have a decidely different atmosphere!
    TH Ordinary: how is a retreat different in a city?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I think it was the on on the right
    stevenaia Michinaga: one
    stevenaia Michinaga: from the photo on the wiki page
    Pema Pera: we'll find out, TH :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: remmeber walking around the drive
    Bleu Oleander: you haven't done a retreat in a city before?
    Pema Pera: nope
    Bleu Oleander: that should be very interesting!
    Pema Pera: not with PaB at least
    Pema Pera: this will be our fourth retreat in RL for PaB
    SophiaSharon Larnia: practicing with things usually perceived as distractions..
    Pema Pera: yes, exactly!
    TH Ordinary: do you plan to experience the city as a group?
    Pema Pera: we'll see -- I never plan much of anything beforehand, for a PaB retreat
    Pema Pera: the retreats seem to unfold by themselves
    Pema Pera: being led by the group's energy and interests
    stevenaia Michinaga: looking it was the HOTEL KABUKI
    Pema Pera: as Sharon can testify about the Princeton retreat, and Yaku about the Malta retreat
    Pema Pera: thanks, Steve! The Tomo is a bit more, how to say, "unusual" :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    I tried again to focus on the interview with Sharon.
    Pema Pera: If I may come back to Sharon's interview, and her remark about finding a lost voice -- has anyone else had that experience (as I interpreted it: we all have been inspired deeply at some special times in our lives, only to find that it was surprisingly difficult to integrate what we saw into our normal life) ?
    TH Ordinary: life's unexpected challenges offer these opportunities!
    Bleu Oleander: yes, I find that when we grow in our minds sometimes it's difficult to relate to our normal experiences
    Bleu Oleander: and to our circle of friends
    Calvino Rabeni: A "voice" is such a general entity - I think it's an expression of a lot of things that almost add up to an "identity"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eden!
    Pema Pera: Hi Eden ! ! !
    Bleu Oleander: hi Eden
    Calvino Rabeni: Identities are quite context-dependent too
    Eden Haiku: Good evening!
    TH Ordinary: hello
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting pointCalvino
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eden
    Eden Haiku: Hey Yaku!
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, a developmental transformation in consciousness could be seen as the construction of a new, stable "identity"
    Calvino Rabeni: or if you like, a cluster of "identifications"
    stevenaia Michinaga: this is what the hotel overlooks http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/6xVwNzRYswJRNOa_aPoEPQ
    SophiaSharon Larnia: holymoly
    stevenaia Michinaga: not big enough for a large meeting :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sure, if we hang from the rafters
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and shout
    Pema Pera: :twist and shout:
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe not condusive to thinking very well :)
    Eden Haiku: Hi Bleu:))
    Pema Pera: we can meet in cafes or in one of the many parks
    Bleu Oleander: hey Eden!
    Pema Pera: or in a room in the hotel
    Back to Sharon's interview; this time Calvino focused on the question of identity.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is thinking hard about what you said Calvino
    SophiaSharon Larnia: by approaching many concepts at once its hard to pin down that new identity in the first place
    SophiaSharon Larnia: which is really built from the previous one
    Calvino Rabeni: I think identities are intrinsically difficult or impossible to pin down
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: they seem more like emergent qualitative properties of all the unpredictable interactions of whatever "components" they might have
    Calvino Rabeni: with a good dose of circular causality thrown in
    Calvino Rabeni: given that the whole influences the parts and vice versa
    SophiaSharon Larnia: for me its much simpler, dropping the self critic
    Calvino Rabeni: The self critic being another "identity"?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats the one
    Calvino Rabeni: As in "I beat myself up about X" - who is the beater, who is the beaten?
    Eden Haiku: In Pondicherry, they sing religious invocations and the national anthem at universitarian conference. They have a strong sense of their identity.
    Calvino Rabeni: In a sense, that does not refer to the same "I"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: would like to hear that, Eden :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe now there are 3 - I1 observe myself 2c riiticising myself3
    Pema Pera: You're in Pondicherry right now, Eden?
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a whole family inside :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: then what is integration?
    Calvino Rabeni: Great question - it seems to be possible - if not "totally"?
    Calvino Rabeni: if all the different parts dropped their grievance issues and got along in harmony?
    Calvino Rabeni: If they all learned to have the same memories (which they initially don't)?
    Calvino Rabeni: Dropping attachments? Then there is less to distinguish them
    Calvino Rabeni: In a deep meditation, perhaps they merge, only to differentiate again when one goes into action?
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems to me much of philosophy and religion gets confused by postulating a unitary "self" of some kind
    Calvino Rabeni: ignoring the observably fragmentary nature of experiences
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Archmage
    Calvino Rabeni: If one feels an inner conflict, is it (1) self sabotage, or (2) just a difference in opinion between I's ?
    Calvino Rabeni: And how could the observer-self decide which of the parties to the confilict was the "right" one?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: if feels very much like one 'I' to me :)
    Perhaps Sharon was addressing a somewhat different question than that of the multiple identities that Calvino discussed.
    Calvino Rabeni: Then what's going on during self-doubt, self-criticism, ambivalence, or sudden mood changes, etc.
    Archmage Atlantis: We are of many minds......of many bodies
    Calvino Rabeni: And what if you feel hungry, but think "I shouldn't eat" or some such conflict?
    TH Ordinary: chemistry
    SophiaSharon Larnia: selfcensorship learned from previous experience, learning fire is hot if you touch it
    Calvino Rabeni: Or engage in an addictive or self-destructive activity?
    Pema Pera: a lost voice may be different from a lost identity or self -- if I start from my own experience, it is more like a lost ability you once felt you had, which you lost or suppressed
    Calvino Rabeni: All these are I believe instructive to dig into?
    Pema Pera: by burning yourself for example, indeed
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Pema
    Pema Pera: remembering an intuition but no longer knowing how to put it into words
    Archmage Atlantis: What if addicition is the way to truth...and to conform s only less truth?
    Calvino Rabeni: What about the "inner child" - what is it a metaphor of?
    Pema Pera: for me at least, a form of devotion often helps there, a kind of praying perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema, I think you're talking about a division between the cognitive and somatic minds
    Pema Pera: asking for the voice to return
    I was groping for words, trying to indicate that perhaps Sharon's way of expressing what she felt and Calvino's way of using philosophical terms didn't yet meet.  Much as I agree with Calvino that philosophy can provide useful tools, I prefer to start by trying to understand someone else's experience and to check that understanding by trying to rephrase it, before taking more distance through a philosophical approach.
    Pema Pera: I'm trying to stay close to Sharon's experience, Calvino
    Eden Haiku: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that place you lived before life experiences piled up, a place of experience being held for what they are, experience
    Calvino Rabeni: And if they are partly dissociated, to some degree the world "self" could be used
    Archmage Atlantis: The creator is with you Pema
    Pema Pera: rather than trying to analyze it philosophically
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, observe
    Pema Pera: a place of innocence
    Calvino Rabeni: Philosophy is only to refer to the observations
    Eden Haiku: It is the Mother anniversary today.She said interesting things about being human, what it means.
    Pema Pera: what did she say, Eden?
    Calvino Rabeni: Innocence - a buddha mind or christ mind within oneself? Possession by a spirit? It's been labeled both ways, but to me it seems veriy "self"?
    Pema Pera: it depends how you experience it, Calvino . . .
    Pema Pera: not how we label it
    Eden Haiku: Praying for the memory to come back :))
    Calvino Rabeni: Hopefully the label is derivative of the experience :)
    Pema Pera: yes, but starting with the experience may help to find the right label :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Metaphors both express and influence experience
    Eden jumped back to square one, and gave the title for this session.
    Eden Haiku: Something like we have no idea what it is. Completely uncharted territory.
    Calvino Rabeni: Completely agree, the insight is meaningful when grounded
    Pema Pera: that's a great example of innocence, Eden!!
    Archmage Atlantis: Rasta - every little thing willbe aright
    SophiaSharon Larnia: like every now has never been before, Eden :)
    Pema Pera: back to the garden / of Eden with Eden as / if she never left
    Eden Haiku: Creating ourselves like being born into a new world.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahha good one Pema :)
    Eden Haiku: :)@Pema
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
    Calvino Rabeni: #not knowing - it is an innocent relationship to seeing, not a condition of "not seeing"
    Calvino Rabeni: what is seen, still has very "in particular" qualities
    Eden Haiku: A lot of security in town this morning. Terrorist threats.
    Archmage Atlantis: I never lost it Pema only continue to see the garden
    Calvino Rabeni: Of which one doesn't then say "I know".
    Archmage Atlantis: Just am no longer in it
    Pema Pera: thank you all for the conversation, it's time for me to get some sleep . . .
    Calvino Rabeni: In that way, knowing is what happens when seeing stops
    Calvino Rabeni: :) bye pema
    Eden Haiku: Bye Pema!
    Bleu Oleander: bye Pema
    TH Ordinary: good night pema
    Pema Pera: bfn!
    I left at this point, so I will leave the remainder uncommented.
    Eden Haiku: Sweet dreams!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema
    Bleu Oleander: bfn everyone
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bleu
    Eden Haiku: Will have to leave also bfn!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eden
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and TH :)
    TH Ordinary: thanks for the conversation! bye
    stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
    Archmage Atlantis: there is a moment of choice that comes in all existence
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye all !
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a choice is every second Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Yea
    SophiaSharon Larnia: want to go back to something i was working on, bfn all :))
    Archmage Atlantis: But some choices mean more
    Calvino Rabeni: How about communicating "seeing"? How can it be done - or is it possible? Can we communicate "seeing the Garden"?
    Calvino Rabeni: I ask, because it seems important for people to know that something is possible
    Calvino Rabeni: something important like that
    Calvino Rabeni: even if through the eyes of others as a hint
    Calvino Rabeni: Your "moment of choice" Archmage?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a feeling about it
    Archmage Atlantis: You ask my essense, Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe different than what you meant :)
    Calvino Rabeni: My essence too - and I don't quite know if it has a voice
    Archmage Atlantis: How I believe I am
    Archmage Atlantis: I am in another mythology, in my mnd
    Archmage Atlantis: I am the bearer of the waters of life
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i was nearly asleep again cal :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey arch
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i woke up and coulnd´t sleep so the 4 am spot was close bye :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I wondered :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i´ve never been on any session at this time :)
    Calvino Rabeni: You may be right!
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I've only been on 1 7am session
    Calvino Rabeni: hello, Moncayo
    Moncayo Adamski: hola cal
    Calvino Rabeni: hola
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hola
    Moncayo Adamski: bonito lugar
    Archmage Atlantis: so
    Calvino Rabeni: si
    Archmage Atlantis: need a place
    Yakuzza Lethecus: gracias
    Archmage Atlantis: of living
    Yakuzza Lethecus: how do you mean that arch ?
    Calvino Rabeni: tengo un "note" para lugar aqui - habla engles?
    Archmage Atlantis: I hear you, Yak....I am composing
    Moncayo Adamski: gracias
    Archmage Atlantis: Look at Gaudi, at Picasso...I try to undersand
    Calvino Rabeni: AA, you have insights of seeing beyond self
    Calvino Rabeni: Through Art?
    Archmage Atlantis: Art., music and dance
    Archmage Atlantis: and electronics
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you say more about the electronics ?
    Moncayo Adamski: como arte?
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: This place is electronic.... also art
    Calvino Rabeni: Moncayo, words spoken here are recorded by the computer and published on the web site
    Calvino Rabeni: It is neccessary to have your OK ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i try to give sleep another shot until the sun comes u
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night
    Calvino Rabeni: This is something we advise to new people who come here
    Moncayo Adamski: estoy de acuerdo
    Calvino Rabeni: there were many people here at 7:00 PM SLT
    Calvino Rabeni: most of them departed already
    Calvino Rabeni: Now the meeting is finished
    Calvino Rabeni: but you are welcome to come any time
    Calvino Rabeni: the meetings are 1am 7am 1pm and 7pm
    Moncayo Adamski: muchas gracias fue agradable su compañia
    Calvino Rabeni: thank you Moncayo for visiting
    Calvino Rabeni: good to meet you
    Moncayo Adamski: gracias
    Archmage Atlantis: Cal, the real "quotes" meeeting never ends
    Calvino Rabeni: I must go now also
    Moncayo Adamski: nos vemos luego
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: adios
    Archmage Atlantis: yea
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