2010.02.21 13:00 - If we can't trust ourselves...

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    During this meeting discussion about the inner voice of 'should' and its inhibiting effects upon our self expression and self discovery occupied the first half or so and then the discussion seemed to wend toward the questions and challenges in trusting oneself. Fael and I began the session, Yakuzza joining us followed by Stevenaia and Arabella.  


    Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: like your outfit
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
    Fael Illyar: I was thinking to find someone not so good with things changing, like with webpages, to take a look at a test wiki to see what things would confuse you there.
    Fael Illyar: http://nbl172.fotokone.fi/ is my test of what self-hosted wiki could look like.
    Maxine Walden: are you looking for a subject not so swift with wikis and the like?
    Fael Illyar: It does not have all the pages yet, I'm working on that still :)
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Maxine Walden: I am not very swift technically; I will be happy to look at it, but as I am goc, if we get others coming I would have to do it later
    Fael Illyar: I'd expect quite a few others :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, maybe I can look at it when there is the opportunity
    Fael Illyar: it's sunday 1pm afterall :)
    Maxine Walden: indeed! But sounds like you are thinking of lots of things to make tech easier for many of the folks like me who are newbies ongoingly
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I'd like to have minimum fuss for most guardians from this :)
    Maxine Walden: that would be such a wondrful contribution, Fael, just wonderful for so many of us.
    Fael Illyar: I'm working on a tool that'll fill the test wiki with the things from our wik.is site.
    Maxine Walden: hmm, sounds interesting
    Fael Illyar: (the current wiki is the wik.is site)
    Maxine Walden: yes, aware of that
    Maxine Walden: it has been a couple of years since we met in Princeton and I still recall that time.
    Fael Illyar: me too :)
    Fael Illyar: although it's only 18 months still :)
    Maxine Walden: only 18 months, in some ways it seems so much longer...guess lots of stuff has occurred in the meantime to make it seem longer
    Fael Illyar: Yes, a lot of things are happening :)
    Maxine Walden: how has the PaB practice/focus gone for you? Is that something of continuing interest or have your interests diverged?
    Fael Illyar: I no longer use the bell ringing every 15 minutes but having used it for close to a year, it's left a habit of pausing often :)
    Maxine Walden: hmm, yes, the pausing does seem to become an automatic thing...interesting in the imposed pause just now...does that bring interesting insights, experience?
    Fael Illyar: It's rare I get things I can put into words :)
    Fael Illyar: or well, perhaps more of rare that I can see them as something worth mentioning :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Yaku :)
    Maxine Walden: ah, yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey, both of you
    Maxine Walden: I seem to have differing experiences of the pauses as well, depending upon my inner states of mind it seems
    Maxine Walden: hi, Yaku
    Maxine Walden: Nice to see you
    Maxine Walden: We are just musing about our experiences of the pauses...9 sec or 90 sec
    Fael Illyar: Yet, I'm often feeling like I'm pausing all the time. The mental part of it.
    Maxine Walden: ah, interesting...pausing and witnessing nearly all the time?
    Fael Illyar: it could perhaps be called that... I would prefer to call it listening :)
    Fael Illyar: (as opposed to making noise)
    Maxine Walden: ah...listening to the external and internal goings on perhaps?
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Maxine Walden: Yaku, what are your experiences wih the pauses?
    Maxine Walden: Guess my own experiences vary: sometimes I feel I am also listening, as you describe it, Fael, and sometimes when I am more tired or distracted it is more difficult to stay attentive especially to the internal issues
    Fael Illyar: of course that happens to me too :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still i have the issue with the pause that i focus on something on my body which i am usually not very aware of just in order to ,,do it"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so to feel if i can feel my toes while i am not or when i am moving them
    Yakuzza Lethecus: really just in order to try to do it in some way because i was really lazy on that for a while
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still nothing fancy to share
    Maxine Walden: imagine we all feel similarly most of thet time, Yaku, ie nothing fancy to share...
    Fael Illyar: a lot of the reason I've not been aware of many things before is that my general approach to everything has been way too "how should this be?" kind.
    Maxine Walden: ah, yes, Fael the big SHOULD which I also know so well
    Fael Illyar: yes, I actually bumped into an interesting website recently that gave me some more insight to those.
    Fael Illyar: http://www.anxietyculture.com/contents.htm
    Maxine Walden: ah, please say more...
    Fael Illyar: The Features and Control Systems parts of the website I found most interesting
    Fael Illyar: a lot of our current society focuses on making people behave in certain ways. "should" thinking is in the center of it.
    Maxine Walden: yes, at first glance those parts of the website seem to peg the issues of should in a detailed way
    Fael Illyar: it's taught to us when we're children and then it keeps being abused by different organizations and people.
    Maxine Walden: interesting, as the bell sounded just now I found myself instantly saying 'oh, I should have been watching for it...got caught by surprise...not doing my goc job very well...'
    Fael Illyar: who might not realize there's anything wrong with it :)
    Maxine Walden: guess it comes down to how we feel about that 'should' in the moment...like me just now re the bell
    Fael Illyar: yes :)
    Fael Illyar: but, the more I've been thinking about it, the more I feel "should" is a false way of thinking.
    Maxine Walden: funny, how it can haunt us, follow just over our shoulder and catch us (the 'should' voice) when we seem least aware
    Fael Illyar: it's a kind of wish that things were black&white
    Maxine Walden: agree, please say more, fael, about that ...the black and white
    Fael Illyar: I mean, if you say something like "I should be more ..."
    Fael Illyar: what that is really saying is plain and simply "I'm not ok as I am"
    Fael Illyar: there's no indication in that thought what is enough.
    Maxine Walden: ah, yes, precisely!
    Maxine Walden: agree totally
    Maxine Walden: that nudge away from 'OK in the moment...' is so seemingly ever present....interesting to try to think why that is so prevalent...
    Fael Illyar: if you take the time to read that website, you might come away with some more understanding of it :)
    Maxine Walden: thanks, will try to do so...
    Maxine Walden: Yaku, hope you are not feeling left out of the conversation...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh it's fine, i am thinking about the issue how to get to the meta terms in literature :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: for example reading that about anxity remembers me a bit about something i heard from chomsky a few years back
    Maxine Walden: care to share that Chomsky memory?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: manufacturing consent, and there where even other ppl critical about mass media
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i just have issues to really understand where habermas and other ppl in contemporary philosophy are setting issues on mass media
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm, i don´t know if habermas is even contemporary but he´s breathing :P
    Maxine Walden: not sure where Habermas comes down re mass media, Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so my point is that i actually don´t know how to find good literature on these topics because these things are often discussed for ages
    Fael Illyar: consumer anxiety is exactly what advertising is all about. It's no surprise mental problems have been increasing lately.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: my thoughts are propably not even on topic, but fear is always a tool to ,,motivate people"
    Maxine Walden: (I am also aware of a 'should' voice now, saying to me as goc, 'hmm, we should be focussing on our own experience, not so much on what philosophers might be saying...in PaB, here, the focus should be on our direct experience...' Just to share another 'should' voice on my shoulder perhaps as another 90 sec pause approaches. Not meaning to say 'should' to you, Yaku, but trying to share my momentary experience
    Fael Illyar: I'd say it's a way to control people.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi stevenaia
    Maxine Walden: Am wondering whether the pauses seem controlling?
    Maxine Walden: hi, stevenaia
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i agree that own experiences are the key, but i don´t know how to elaborate on my own experiences and thoughts very often
    Fael Illyar: the pauses are controling if they come with a "should" :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and it´s hard to find ppl whom are not just saying ,,this damn corrupt bankers"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i never read much my whole life
    stevenaia Michinaga: they are optional if you choose
    Yakuzza Lethecus: one of my issues is really how to get to information i trust
    Fael Illyar: this talk about "should" is something that goes very close to my personal experiences. Especially since that thought is just simply so prevalent :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I begin with trust and chip away from there
    Fael Illyar: Yakuzza, why trust? verify what you can.
    Maxine Walden: getting to information you can trust...which can help you develop awareness ofyour own experience or voice...so important
    Fael Illyar: the rest, well, if it's of practical importance, choose what seems right.
    Fael Illyar: if no practical importance, is it really so important right then?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but what feels right isn´t necessarily right, the addict might choose a drugs over non drugs because they feel better
    Fael Illyar: I said what feels right. Not what feels better.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello arabella
    Fael Illyar: Hi ara :)
    Maxine Walden: ah, trying to gain direction from valued writings, authors...when it is difficult to read your own compass?
    Maxine Walden: hi, ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, is the glass of wine good or bad, sometimes they tell us a glass of wine prevent heart decease sometimes not
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
    Fael Illyar: Yaku, it's your choice in any case if to trust the information or not.
    Fael Illyar: there's no way around that.
    Maxine Walden: yes, the opinions outside can jerk us around this way and that...how to develop a steady trajectory...
    Fael Illyar: if you trust it because what the source is, you trust yourself to choose the source.
    Fael Illyar: why not just trust yourself directly?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t trust myself, that´s propably the key issue
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i had beliefs that turned out to be wrong
    Fael Illyar: you do trust yourself, otherwise, how would you trust anything at all?
    Fael Illyar: and yes, everyone has beliefs that turn out to be wrong. Nothing there but to learn and move on.

    I had to go and so make my exit, looking forward to reading the chatlog 

    Maxine Walden: This is such an important topic, trust in oneself, and I am afraid I have another meeting to go to. As goc I will eagerly look at the log to see how the discussion continues...and hopefully be able to participate in a followup discussion about trusting oneself.
    Fael Illyar: Nothing wrong with believing something that's not true.
    Maxine Walden: Have to go, so will just slip out.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s complicated, sure i don´t question everything :)
    Fael Illyar: it happens.
    Maxine Walden: bye for now
    Fael Illyar: have fun Maxine :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye maxine
    arabella Ella: bye Maxine
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s just a real issue for me to elaborate and understand how we create our beliefs if it´s possible to understand that
    Fael Illyar: what else is there to your trust thing than a fear of not being right?
    Fael Illyar: being wrong is how we learn :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes :)
    Fael Illyar: and especially when you discover you were wrong. That's fantastic :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still going into the meta isn´t the worst thing i believe right now
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go
    Fael Illyar: that's the precise moment you learn :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
    Fael Illyar: Have fun steve :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye steven
    Fael Illyar: by discovering you were wrong, you are then more right :)
    Fael Illyar: it might show you you're less right than you think you should be. But it really means you're getting somewhere :)
    arabella Ella: I dont think it is ever possible for someone to be right all the time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the main issue is often that i don´t know how to get deeper thoughts on some specific topic i have in mind
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i can´t ask somebody all the time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not obviously, ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that isn´t even the issue, my issue right now is on going deeper into meta topics, because before we had for example ,fear used in the mass media"
    Fael Illyar: ah, another should, perhaps. Do you require yourself to get to the bottom of the topic right there and then?
    arabella Ella: You first learn to walk, Yaku, then later you can run or sprint
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i remembered chomsky and habermas in that context but only very blurry
    arabella Ella: google is a great help to many of us today ... investigate different sites see what is common, what is different, etc
    Fael Illyar: thinking really is a very very slow process and happens mostly subconsciously
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so all the time when i read something in the media or on websites it´s often unstructurized
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but how to really find good elaborated thoughts ,,on topic" in the literature
    Yakuzza Lethecus: things often seem new but are old like mammoth
    arabella Ella: that is not too difficult with the web search engines today Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: still we´re around for 100k years and every age was as complex as ours for the ppl in it
    arabella Ella: it was more difficult when we needed to use more books
    Fael Illyar: When I'm working on something, I often bump into conversations and articles that help me forward with it :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i am getting strange today again :)
    arabella Ella: not at all Yaku :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Main issue before was i guess,
    can we trust our own feelings and beliefs" at least that is where it ended up for me
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i had the issue that i don´t trust myself that much anymore
    Fael Illyar: To me, it's not a question of if we can. Of course we can. Billions of people do it everyday :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i read/hear more about these topics
    arabella Ella: well what else can we trust besides our feelings and beliefs ... together with knowledge that we are humans capable of reflection and of investigation when we are in doubt
    arabella Ella: and as Fael had said as humans we know we are also capable of error but that only plays the role of learning in our lives
    Fael Illyar: everything we perceive, everything we know comes through ourselves. If you don't trust yourself. You trust nothing.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i have the ,,feeling" that plenty of my old beliefs are wrong but i am not still at a point where i could say that i am authentic in having applied the new thoughts
    Yakuzza Lethecus: gosh that´s really blurry :P
    Fael Illyar: Do you know how the scientific method goes?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hm i don´t like the word ,,scientific method"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there is so much about science
    Yakuzza Lethecus: kuhn and his paradigms
    Fael Illyar: scientific method is pretty simple :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: even one of the kira founding farthers is pretty big on phil of science
    arabella Ella: well Yaku most of your beliefs MUST be right as our belief system is like a jigsaw puzzle or like a huge web ... you cannot have beliefs unless they fit in with all the rest of your beliefs
    Yakuzza Lethecus: baas van fraasen
    Fael Illyar: basically, you make a theory, and you test it.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: popper and his falsification
    Fael Illyar: beliefs are the theories.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so that´s basicly what you mean popper i guess
    Fael Illyar: life is testing them out
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nods
    Fael Illyar: the correct ones can withstand the test.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but there were already ppl 50 years ago in fear that science could become a threa for democracy
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and today we have politicians who fear making actions unless they don´t have 5 studies which are partly financed from the industry
    arabella Ella: I'm afraid i must go now .... nite to both of you!
    Fael Illyar: Naturally, there's science and "science"
    Fael Illyar: good night ara :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s what i mean with ,,old thoughts"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night ara, sleep well
    Fael Illyar: which do you think they were afraid of?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the issue that for example science isn´t about progress after a while science turnes out to enforce its own continuation, but main issue with all what i am saying is that it´s not very elaborated in my own mind
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i really like to reflect on that like i do with you :)
    Fael Illyar: You mean to say it's all a kind of mess in your head?
    Fael Illyar: can't make heads or tails out of it?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i haven´t understood everything i am talking about, yes i am kind of in a mess but i can only reflect that in pieces once in a while
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, it feels right in some way
    Fael Illyar: Nothing to it but to wait and let your mind process it.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and yes, that feeling is something i trust
    Fael Illyar: good :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t even know where we disagree righ tnow
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Fael Illyar: Do we? I didn't think we did.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: me neither :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thx, for listening!
    Fael Illyar: you're welcome :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: sleep well
    Fael Illyar: you too :)
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