2010.02.21 19:00 - Self Observation and the Mind

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

This session had focused and energetic dialogue on two related topics - the first, self observation (with some PaB experience reports) and the second, a philosophical inquiry into "mind."

Calvino Rabeni: Hi Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: I should remind you - or is thsi the first time I've told you - that the chat here is recorded and posted on the web site. Is that ok?
Calvino Rabeni: OK,I know you know :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi I am hhere on Local chat.
Calvino Rabeni: every 15 minutes when the bell rings, the idea is to pause for 90 seconds and just be aware of what is present
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I read a little on the kira website about your intentions here. Focusing on being once every 15 minutes? Would you say that's line of like what Gurdjieffians would call Self-Remembering?
Calvino Rabeni: OR sometimes, people have an idea of something to "look for" or "look into" - which could be anything!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK!
Calvino Rabeni: To me, the idea is very similar, yes.
Calvino Rabeni: Although not everyone here would use the awareness to be aware of self, or think of it that way
Calvino Rabeni: but I think of it that way, certainly
stevenaia Michinaga: could you summarize Gurdjieffians for me?
Calvino Rabeni: Hi steve welcome
stevenaia Michinaga: (no wiki page)
Calvino Rabeni: didn't notice you slipped in
stevenaia Michinaga: :0
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes - whatever might be in your field of awareness.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Stevenaia, nice to meet you here.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Mitzi welcome
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hmmm, summarize Gurdjieffians! That's a good challenge. How many words would consstitute a summary.?
stevenaia Michinaga: as many as it takes to explain it to someone who has never neard of it
Calvino Rabeni: Not really possible, but I'd start with the idea of self-remembering and also the idea of the 4 ways
stevenaia Michinaga: heard
Calvino Rabeni: Self remembering is one of the foundation ideas
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, continue...
Calvino Rabeni: Well, as far as I know, it starts with self-observation -
Calvino Rabeni: which is being aware of what is, and that includes both whatever is in the field of awareness, as well as oneself.
Calvino Rabeni: So an idea there is a complete field awareness has both of these
Calvino Rabeni: TO a begginner it might look like a "divided awareness"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think Gurdjieff said "one eye out and one eye in."
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: In that, for people not practiced, to see "out" is to forget "in", and vice versa
stevenaia Michinaga: sounds similar to what we explore here
Calvino Rabeni: which is I think, one consequence of "identification"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes very similar
Calvino Rabeni: With practice, the seeing can be out and in at the same time
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, ... that's why I mentioned it.
Calvino Rabeni: which opens up very interesting possibilities
Calvino Rabeni: one does not "lose self awareness" in perception
Calvino Rabeni: and in fact, perception can reveal more about what is usually called "internal"
Calvino Rabeni: And the self is perhaps a pretty rich and complex affair
Calvino Rabeni: So with self awareness, a perception might be like a light that shines inside, illuminating many things about the self
Calvino Rabeni: That's I'd call a side effect, not necessarily the point of it all
stevenaia Michinaga: enlightenment?
Calvino Rabeni: To translate to PaB notions - appreciating the appearance of being appearing to self
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Words can be very confusing if not clarified. Enlightenment is one of those words I am leery of ... what would you mean by that, Steve?
Calvino Rabeni: Enlightment isn't a word used in that context
--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: internally illuminated
Calvino Rabeni: but something closer to - being fully aware and present
Mitzi Mimistrobell: that is lovely. I like your 90 second interval.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, words to take time to understand
Calvino Rabeni: You might say - it is the path of self-realization in everyday life
Calvino Rabeni: using all the different dimensions of the self
Calvino Rabeni: according to that idea, traditional practices emphasize primarily one aspect of self
Calvino Rabeni: body, mind, or heart
Calvino Rabeni: like physical yoga, mind studies, or devotion / emotion
stevenaia Michinaga: sorry Cal, which "idea" are you refering?
Calvino Rabeni: The gurdjieff path is also called the Fourth Way
stevenaia Michinaga: awww
Calvino Rabeni: and they think of those other three Ways as being the first three
Calvino Rabeni: and the idea is to combine them, to work the whole thing
Calvino Rabeni: in this sense, it is a synthesis of traditional paths, as understood by gurdjieff, around the beginning of the 20th century
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, very good, Calvino.
Calvino Rabeni: paths of fakir, jnana, and bhakti - focusing on body, mind, and heart
Calvino Rabeni: So that's the conceptual framework of it
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Gurdjieff also put forth a very specific cosmology that is quite fascinating. There's a lot of "everthing you know is wrong" in it.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I find it quite refreshing.
Calvino Rabeni: Well, in a sense, it followed the emphasis on deconstruction that you find in most other paths at the beginning
Calvino Rabeni: kind of like clearing the decks of conventional ignorance
Mitzi Mimistrobell: mmm hmmm.
Calvino Rabeni: a lot of different paths have some form of this
Calvino Rabeni: even phenomenology
Calvino Rabeni: the epoche or phenomenological reduction might be considered something like that
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Throw out all your conventional conceptions, and do some fresh empirical research on your own moment to moment experience.
Calvino Rabeni: You "drop" the unexamined assumptions, that whatever is perceived, is "just as given"
Calvino Rabeni: In order to open up - drum roll - "not knowing"
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: as a precursor, to a more "open" awareness
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe the ability to see through / beyond fixated conceptual thinking patterns
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I am not familiar with the terms "phenomological reduction" or "eopche" ... not that I particularly care that I'm not, but just to say ...
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, Mitzi - its something we talk about around here sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: Kira used to have a phenomenology workshop weekly
Calvino Rabeni: It is a western philosophy based on observation and "not knowing"
Calvino Rabeni: Although maybe its professionals would not say "not knowing"
Calvino Rabeni: but they use the word "bracketing"
Calvino Rabeni: which means to observe without necessarily believing or disbelieving
Calvino Rabeni: to suspend belief
Calvino Rabeni: It is I think, a kind of mental observation practice
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bracketing! I like that very much.
Calvino Rabeni: You might have heard people use it informally - like when you put something in quotes or parentheses
Calvino Rabeni: A parenthesis creates a temporary part of a statement, with different subject or point
Calvino Rabeni: from the one it is embedded in
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I have sometimes felt that I will "try on" a belief system without completely buying into it.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Perhaps that is one step more engaged than bracketing would be.
stevenaia Michinaga: we call that the "Play" part of what we do here Mitzi
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I see.
Calvino Rabeni: Trying On - that is a good word for it :)
Calvino Rabeni: It is more engaged, right?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Like trying on clothes.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Calvino Rabeni: Not purely observational - more active, more experimental
stevenaia Michinaga: we try on "Being" here
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good distinction, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: we pause and be aware during the bell period
Calvino Rabeni: and often, after, report on what we experienced
Calvino Rabeni: it might be just an observation of what happened

Mitzi Mimistrobell: I notice i feel relaxed. I notice that the bird sounds are relaxing.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Or is it crickets?
Calvino Rabeni: or the result of a "little experiment" if we were holding an idea or question
Calvino Rabeni: Did you know, the nature sounds go with the time of day here
Calvino Rabeni: I think it is night, bird sounds might change to crickets
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah! I turned it to middday
Calvino Rabeni: right. same here.
Calvino Rabeni: An owl sound will come later perhaps
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I hear both birds and crickets now.
Calvino Rabeni: Here is my report on the pause that just passed:
Calvino Rabeni: I noticed memories from today, and then the idea that I hoped to talk about them, and then a tension in my body that held that intention
Calvino Rabeni: the body posture was like waiting to catch a mouse if it were to jump out of the screen

Mitzi Mimistrobell: I notice I feel that there is no pressure here to be a certain way. To be entertaining for example.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Do you want to talk about them still?
Calvino Rabeni: the mouse was like "opportunity". After that I relaxed and stopped hunching
Calvino Rabeni: That is called around here somethning like "dropping"
Calvino Rabeni: Awareness brings something into focus, that was noticed to be there already, and then it becomes possible perhaps to let go of it
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Where in your body was the tension that you had been holding?
Calvino Rabeni: Left side, chest, shoulders, you might feel the same if you imagined you were about to pounce on a mouse just to the front/left of your body
Calvino Rabeni: The word "dropping" is interesting too
Calvino Rabeni: because I think, one reason it makes sense is due to gravity
Calvino Rabeni: if you hold a thought, it often has a body tension component, and you are not completely relaxed
Calvino Rabeni: when you let go of the thought, then the body parts that were held in tension actually release and drop into gravity
Calvino Rabeni: in this way gravity helps us by giving feedback about the release of a thought form
Calvino Rabeni: Interesting is it not?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes ... very nice precise observations.
stevenaia Michinaga: usually a good thing, once the mouse has passed
Calvino Rabeni: It is natural that these mind / body forms go together, not a bad thing at all
Calvino Rabeni: although for a given performance or purpose, it might not be efficient
Calvino Rabeni: self observation (or awareness) could reveal it
Calvino Rabeni: and then one could adjust things
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Calvino, when you said you felt a tension in your body, and before you described its location, I was imagining where it would be, and for me I felt tension in my jaw, a little, and some intensity around my eye sockets and across the front of my cheeks and brow.
Calvino Rabeni: athletes and martial artists do that all the time
Mitzi Mimistrobell: which was completely different that what you were actually feeling.
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps - there was an idea of speaking, in the imagined situation
Calvino Rabeni: you're a vocal person
Mitzi Mimistrobell: once one notices something, then I would think the changes that you *could* adjust would be somewhat higher.
Calvino Rabeni: some people have more awareness or identification in different functions
Calvino Rabeni: I am very kinesthetic
Calvino Rabeni: Oh yes, the noticing opens the door to changing things
Mitzi Mimistrobell: you did sound like a hunter ready to pounce.
Calvino Rabeni: Right, that is how it felt
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps another person, visualized being vocal and holding back the expresion
Calvino Rabeni: then there might be jaw throat activity
Calvino Rabeni: I interpret ideas of "chakras' somewhat in this light
Calvino Rabeni: as energy activations in the body or subtle body
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: That is very interesting, I will start to notice that in my body.
Calvino Rabeni: I'm noticing the time also now
Calvino Rabeni: there was something I had in mind to ask you, Mitzi
Mitzi Mimistrobell: yeah?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: please ask me Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: I was at a workshop today - it was addressing how to take steps beyond ones habitual limits and patterns
Calvino Rabeni: and about the different conditions that could support that
Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes? anything that struck you particularly?
Calvino Rabeni: there was one angle I was curious about, relative to you experience
Mitzi Mimistrobell: uh huh
Calvino Rabeni: in going outside one's comfort zone - having new experiences
Calvino Rabeni: you might call it a mixed bag - not discomfort - maybe the inner zone should be called the "known"
Calvino Rabeni: and then, moving into and acting in the unknown or partly known
Calvino Rabeni: i.e. actively entering a state of "not knowing" in part, being active there, not just as a mental thing you understand
Calvino Rabeni: then the experience of that zone would be - in part risk, in part adventure
Calvino Rabeni: in that regardless of the objective thing that happens
Calvino Rabeni: someone could experience it as exciting, or maybe as fearful
Calvino Rabeni: or a mix of both
Calvino Rabeni: And in a certain sense, the organism of self can take in the experience as "toxic"
Calvino Rabeni: or with a toxic element, if it is not prepared to completely accept and handle what happens
Calvino Rabeni: which can be partly subjective, of course
Calvino Rabeni: The question is (1) do you have understanding of this process, and (2) what kinds of "support" or resources can make the difference between toxic and not-toxic
Calvino Rabeni: with the understanding that resources might be external, perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: or internal - maybe related to sensititivity or discrimination about how one organizes oneself in relationship to the experience.
Calvino Rabeni: OK, that's my statement of the question :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: that is a theme related to the liver organ, in the "organ energy systems" perspective.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: One part of the support could certainly be conceptual.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So if I have a concept that my liver principle takes toxic elements that come into me and transforms them into beneficial substances, it might change my fearful attitude re: such experiences
Calvino Rabeni: In relation to this I'm thinking of the "brain in the gut" that gives feelings about inputs to self being healthy or not - organizing digestion of food, but probably also influencing somatic responses to perception of all kinds
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, nice meeting you Mitzi, Cal
Mitzi Mimistrobell: the brain in the gut would seem to be something not so much under control
Calvino Rabeni: Glad you were here - see you later Stevenaia :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Nice to meet you as well steve. You are a good listener.
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm excited by your question, Calvino. I feel my upper body, arms and torso, somewhat energized, and I am leanning forward in my seat.
Calvino Rabeni: Not under "direct" control of the cognitive self perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: but I think there is 2-way communication
Calvino Rabeni: yes some heat energy in my body about this falso
Mitzi Mimistrobell: A side thought - because ofmy digestive issues I'm interested in controlling the population of micro organisms in my gut, through probiotics and the nature of the food I eat that creates specific ecosystems for them.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I wonder if there is lots of psychic communication between me and my trillions of gut critters.
Calvino Rabeni: I wouldn't call it psychic, but perhaps very real through electrical and chemical systems inside
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Indeed! So ... that would be one way to have some leverage possibly.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, like eating consciously - or not
Calvino Rabeni: thinking distressed thoughts - obviously the gut system picks up on it
Calvino Rabeni: and also feeds back anxieties
Mitzi Mimistrobell: for sure
Calvino Rabeni: or the opposite relaxed feelings, feelings of safety and nourishment
Calvino Rabeni: and those would be translated into digestive chemicals
Calvino Rabeni: and immediatly be part of the sense world of the microorganisms
Calvino Rabeni: which are responsive and capable of chemical communication
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think this is an underappreciated area of potential leverage in the realm which you are asking about.
Calvino Rabeni: bacteria in colonies do this all the time in the wild, so surely, inside the intestine it is possible
Mitzi Mimistrobell: The research of Bonnie Bassler on "quorum sensing" in bacterial gorups is something that I have looked into.
Calvino Rabeni: I think "one" - meaning the cognitive self - can influence the gut gastroneurological system
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was thinking of some of those studies you mention
Calvino Rabeni: I've also heard, most of the nerves between gut and brain go in the direction to brain
Mitzi Mimistrobell: they don't attack you to make you sick unless there are enough of them - they find out how many others are there by chemical signalling.
Calvino Rabeni: and so in that way, could legitimately be called one of the "senses" and a form of perception
Mitzi Mimistrobell: you mean , more nerves go from gut to brain than go from brain to gut?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, AFAIK :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: hmm. I love this topic. I think there is so much unexplored here. Do you know of the work of Candace Pert?
Calvino Rabeni: Remind me the main topics?
Calvino Rabeni: OK, i googled it :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, "Molecules of Emotion" was her famous book. About peptides and hormones - how our body is not static at all but like a flickering flame of constantly changing chemicals that affect us very specifrically.
Calvino Rabeni: It is emphasizing the chemical links in the whole chain of events that constitute experience
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes!
Calvino Rabeni: Right, I took a program in Boulder once called "experiential anatomy"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: really? who taught that?
Calvino Rabeni: It was years ago, but by know I remember mainly the broad conceptual models
Calvino Rabeni: such as, the way the main links happen
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: the endocrine system's glands, for example, is a transducer of signals - information - knowledge if you like - between the electrical system of the nervous system, and the chemical signalling sytems that control cellular activity.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: uh huh?
Calvino Rabeni: We went through all the anatomical systems - like you might find in the outlines / diagrams of a college anatomy text
Calvino Rabeni: And then suggesting ways to understand the correlations between experiential phenomena and their qualities, and the anatomical correlates

Calvino Rabeni: Hello Lawrence
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: wow, I should find out more about this.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hello Lawrence!
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi :)
Calvino Rabeni: This was in the 90's Mitzi, I will see if I can fish up anything current
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I can google it as well
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi lawrence - we are talking about the endocrine system and its interaction with the nervous system, and thus its contribution to our perceived experience.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Ah.
Calvino Rabeni: How has it been going Lawrence, with your pursuits?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, it's the busy season for tattooing.
Calvino Rabeni: that's interesting, I wonder what causes seasons in tatoo industry?
Calvino Rabeni: And do you have a dragon tattoo in RL :)
Calvino Rabeni: Lawrence is, I think, pretty interested in the philosophy of mind.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I do :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: The tattoo I have is similar to the one I have in SL.
Calvino Rabeni: Some people tend to be "observers" with more of an orientation to that
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I would say that I enjoy observing.
Lawrence Vyceratops: In the US, the busy season is caused by income tax returns. ;)
Calvino Rabeni: Of course, PaB kind of plays the boundary between observing and participating
Calvino Rabeni: I didn't know that - how dies tattoo link to tax?
Lawrence Vyceratops: That can be difficult.
Calvino Rabeni: (multiple topics here)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, everyone pays their taxes all year and about this time of year, people get refunds.
--BELL--

Lawrence Vyceratops: brb...
Calvino Rabeni: WB Mitzi
Mitzi Mimistrobell: sigh ... I need a new computer.
Calvino Rabeni: Same here - it's an old laptop, with a low frame rate, and the screen is cramped bla bla bla
Mitzi Mimistrobell: me too

Lawrence is temporarily away, and I decide to take a certain idea off-record with Mitzi.

Calvino Rabeni: IM?
Calvino Rabeni: (Although it "leaves out" the log readers and "googlers" but sometimes there are somewhat sensitive matters to speak of)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: understood and agreed
Lawrence Vyceratops: back
Calvino Rabeni: WB
Mitzi Mimistrobell: hey
Lawrence Vyceratops: Me too.
Lawrence Vyceratops: I need a new laptop too.
Lawrence Vyceratops: It needs a good cleaning.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: that's a lways a good feeling.

Calvino Rabeni: So Lawrence, have you had some conversations here about "mind" that were in some sense, what you wished would happen here?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I think it would be interesting to have such a conversation with an attempt to look at things without prejudices, belief systems, etc.
Lawrence Vyceratops: It is easy to want to refer to a belief system when ones thinks one is observing.
Calvino Rabeni: sure, almost unavoidable, but one can take them poetically
Calvino Rabeni: and assume they work like a story does, which may be about something
Lawrence Vyceratops: Sure, but could everyone?
Calvino Rabeni: one holds open, what they may be about
--BELL--

Lawrence Vyceratops: Would it be possible to observe thought without running away in thought?
Calvino Rabeni: I think - one can get close to that, but not all the way
Lawrence Vyceratops: What I mean to say is that there seems to be two different kinds of thinking...
Lawrence Vyceratops: One kind is almost automatic, it comes from conditioning. Then there is the kind of thinking that...
Calvino Rabeni: I agree, there are different types of thinking
Lawrence Vyceratops: follows this thinking. It is like when you stub your toe. That is one kind of thinking, when you recognize that.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Then, there is the thinking, "I should be hurting my toe on the chair" or "I hate this chair for being in my way!"
Lawrence Vyceratops: I shouldn't*
Calvino Rabeni: added on thinking about what happened
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, but you can observe it by thinking about what happened.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Then, there is the thinking where you become the thoughts that you are thinking, like "angry" and such.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, thinking can be a way to organize and interpret memories of an experience
Lawrence Vyceratops: When you become your thoughts, that is your ego.
Calvino Rabeni: some call that "identification"
Lawrence Vyceratops: Can we meet to observe without our identifications?
Calvino Rabeni: Ultimately no, but I don't think we need to set the bar too high :)
Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh. Is that high?
Calvino Rabeni: Perfectionism will get in the way with this endeavor, in the moment
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, actually I think it is not something one can do purely
Lawrence Vyceratops: Why not?
Lawrence Vyceratops: We do it all the time.
Calvino Rabeni: Purely? with nothing else going on at the time?
Lawrence Vyceratops: No, I didn't say that.
Calvino Rabeni: Right, I think it mixes in concsiousness - like different layers at once
Calvino Rabeni: what did you mean "we do it all the time"
Lawrence Vyceratops: If you stub your toe now, and you are used to shouting out in anger, when you stub your toe again, you may be conditioned to shout in anger.
Lawrence Vyceratops: But, when we become that, when there is identifi8cation, we can use that opportunity to observe it.
Lawrence Vyceratops: It can happen without time to think about it. like a reflex.
Lawrence Vyceratops: So, I'm not saying to try to live without that happening.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, sorry.
Lawrence Vyceratops: We do all the time when we put on our shoes or take a shower.
Calvino Rabeni: Taking a shower could be done mechanically or awarely
Calvino Rabeni: What would you recommend, about how best to study mind - do you think there is a methodology one can adopt?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Recognize the different kinds of thinking, maybe?
Lawrence Vyceratops: It is necessary to use memories of things to do things like put on shoes or drive a car, but when we get angry, is it necessary?
Lawrence Vyceratops: That's not what i mean....
Lawrence Vyceratops: We get angry... that already happens...
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Aztlan
Lawrence Vyceratops: Can we look at it and see what it is?
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Say more about your view of anger
Aztlan Foss: so who' s angry?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Aztlan
Lawrence Vyceratops: Hi, Aztlan.
Aztlan Foss: hi mitzi hi lawrence
Lawrence Vyceratops: Let's say you put a cushion down in a particular pattern, around the PaB fountain. Someone comes along and moves them around.
Lawrence Vyceratops: One might get upset that someone has moved them. There are two types of thinking happening.
Lawrence Vyceratops: One kind of thinking is recognizing things like the environment and the being, cushions, the fountain, etc.
Lawrence Vyceratops: But then there is thinking which is not based on our environment and being, like our bodies or the pavillion.
Lawrence Vyceratops: This kind of thinking forms an image of the self. The identification we spoke of.
Lawrence Vyceratops: When something now happens in life, reality may conflict with our image.
Calvino Rabeni: It may
Lawrence Vyceratops: When we don't see that anger as a way of thinking, we may mistake it as who we are.
Lawrence Vyceratops: We identify with it, because it has become a part of us through conditioning.
Calvino Rabeni: OR - people sometimes conceive anger as something caused mainly by external events
Lawrence Vyceratops: It is something we learn.
Calvino Rabeni: attribution of blame, no recognition of a person's role in its construction as a belief
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes.
Aztlan Foss: so you're saying we get angry when things aren't the way we think they are?
Lawrence Vyceratops: When things conflict with our image. Our image can be rigid or loose and depend on certain circumstances, can be flexible.
Aztlan Foss: or maybe you prove me wrong in something and suddenly I'm angry because you moved my preconsived notions with facts
Lawrence Vyceratops: Sure, a billion things.
Aztlan Foss: ok I think I'm getting what you're saying
Aztlan Foss: so I can be less angry if I'm more flexible?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, you can recognize that you are creating the image of yourself. What you really are is not this image, that your mind creates without you realizing it.
Aztlan Foss: and the image of my self includes everything around me?
Calvino Rabeni: that is a good one - a principle for considering things further I think
Calvino Rabeni: And I agree with it as one basis of analysis
Lawrence Vyceratops: The image is anything that is not now. Everything that is the past.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Lawrence ... to recognize that, there is part of yourself that stands apart from all this and notices and then describes it.
Calvino Rabeni: Well, AFAIK, even the present is apprehended conceptually
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, we have to conceptualize. Our brains can only process stimuli.
Aztlan Foss: lawrence, are you saying we think we are our life story we tell our selves?
Lawrence Vyceratops: I think...
Calvino Rabeni: I would agree with that, essentially, Aztlan
Calvino Rabeni: except, the story has to fit within certain objective constraints
Calvino Rabeni: to go along with or match it
Calvino Rabeni: we "explain" and take a perspective on the zillion possible interpretations of reality
Calvino Rabeni: selecting maybe, at most a few of them
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, based on our conditioning.
Calvino Rabeni: it is a kind of "tunnel vision", narrow compared to the possible stories
Calvino Rabeni: yes
--BELL--

Aztlan Foss: all through out my 20's my story about highschool has changed
Lawrence Vyceratops: Mitzi, I don't see it as something that stands apart, but rather, thinking that is thinking about thoughts.
Aztlan Foss: it's all the same story but certain things are emphasized differently depending on what is going on now
Mitzi Mimistrobell: standing to the side, perhaps?
Calvino Rabeni: there are lots of distinctions in cognitive activity - thinking about thoughts, thinking about sense perceptions, thinking about feelings, thinking about the "self image" or idea of "the one who thinks", just noticing without responding in internal dialogue, etc.
Lawrence Vyceratops: I guess, in a way, but still being what is being thought about.
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps what we call "being" is just a kind of subtle thinking or noticing
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I think so.
Lawrence Vyceratops: We can't help but to sense.
Calvino Rabeni: True
Aztlan Foss: wait I'm a little lost
Aztlan Foss: where are we thinking about what?
Lawrence Vyceratops: When you are walking through your living room and you accidentally kick your chair, one, you are in your living room, and two, you become anger. One corresponds to reality, one corresponds to an imaginary object of a thinking process.
Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi sends her regards, has left SL after crashing. Thanks you, bye bye etc.
Aztlan Foss: the anger is the imaginary object?
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, Aztlan.
Aztlan Foss: thanks calvino
Aztlan Foss: what about the pain?
Lawrence Vyceratops: That is real.
Aztlan Foss: so what if I don't get angry I'm just realy realy realy like AAAAAAWWWWW MMYYYFOOT!
Lawrence Vyceratops: Pretty much. haha
Aztlan Foss: I guess when that happens one of the first thoughst that comes to mind is how to make the pain stop
Lawrence Vyceratops: The conflict is the image that you hold of not being hurt and the reality of being hurt.
Calvino Rabeni: that is one conflict certainly
Aztlan Foss: hehe yeah I'm like "I want to go back to that time just a second ago when I wasn't feeling this much pain"
Lawrence Vyceratops: haha Exactly! haha
Lawrence Vyceratops: That is just one example.
Lawrence Vyceratops: Just look at what people are doing with bombs and machine guns because of holding images.
Calvino Rabeni: Holding the wrong images - they could be holding better stories :)
Aztlan Foss: I'm usre they COULD hold better images but it's hard to do when your wealth and position in society depends on those images being in place
--BELL--

Lawrence Vyceratops: Gotta go guys...
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for discussion, Lawrence
Calvino Rabeni: See you again
Calvino Rabeni: Aztlan, I better go by now also - see you another time
Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes.
Lawrence Vyceratops: See you guys.
Calvino Rabeni: Bye all :)