2010.03.02 19:00 - Juicy Mirror

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.


    Eos Amaterasu: There's nobody here
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello
    Eos Amaterasu: You've lost your "beyond the beliefs..."
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Paradise is having t-shirts made up with that writing
    Calvino Rabeni: .... hmm, 2 minutes to ghe bell...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it's a t-shirt tag - might make a good car bumper sticker also
    Eos Amaterasu: beyond belief!
    Calvino Rabeni: beyond the beliefs ... a place where we can meet :)
    Eos Amaterasu: no man's land
    Calvino Rabeni: And chat too :)(
    Calvino Rabeni: A pure land for everyman
    Eos Amaterasu straps on seatbelt
    Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs coming up....
    Calvino Rabeni: (: :)


    Eos Amaterasu: (some lag!)
    Calvino Rabeni: (: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: sl has semi-eventual consistency
    Eos Amaterasu: so does reality :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe
    Eos Amaterasu: btw, I think there are always beliefs
    Eos Amaterasu: it's not a matter of having beliefs or not
    Eos Amaterasu: but perhaps more about holding them transparently
    Calvino Rabeni: sure, I think the saying means "beyond *certain* beliefs" ?
    Eos Amaterasu: well, what I'm suggesting (just seeing this)
    Eos Amaterasu: looking at the picture at http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Retreats/2010-01_Malta/2010-Malta-Accounts
    Calvino Rabeni: And semi-transparent is ideal - otherwise opaque or invisible, either one a bit of a limitation
    Eos Amaterasu: is that beyond the beliefs doesn't mean there is a place beyond beliefs
    Eos Amaterasu: but rather there is a place beyond any belief
    Eos Amaterasu: so even holding a belief you can go for "the truth of the human spirit"
    Eos Amaterasu: autopoeisis creates new imagery, story, belief
    Calvino Rabeni: Just want the "true" beliefs, and maybe a subset of those
    Eos Amaterasu: You mean like "universal declaration of human rights"?
    Calvino Rabeni: Responding to your autopoeisis, which is the main thing we do and call knowing
    Calvino Rabeni: Rights are a legal story we might like to tell one another
    Calvino Rabeni: The quoted poem, a different kind of story - more inspiring
    Eos Amaterasu: it describes the space beyond the well-travelled, well rehearsed, the tacit
    Eos Amaterasu: which might be experienced as breakdowns in the expected or familiar
    Calvino Rabeni: Somewhere, that knowing is striving to break out of the corral and head for the hills
    Calvino Rabeni: Were it a ruminant that is :)
    Eos Amaterasu: ta ta dum, ta ta dum, ta ta dum dum dum
    Calvino Rabeni: Tired of chewing the same hay every day
    Eos Amaterasu: the belief things have a way of running into walls, or getting odd juxtapositions
    Eos Amaterasu: they don't quite work, and so you're popped out of them
    Eos Amaterasu: where, as you say, you might meet someone else
    Calvino Rabeni: And if you ask for co-authors, some write of the going beyond as a breakdown, others as a breakout, a breakaway, a liberation
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes...
    Eos Amaterasu: the negative language being a bit safer, in that less likely to imply or impute new beliefs
    Calvino Rabeni: And one *must* tell the story when called - the only question is how :)




    Calvino Rabeni: Where did that idea of "safe" come from? As if the new ideas or beliefs are dangerous?
    Eos Amaterasu: safe in the sense of safer from potential concretization of the "liberation" or "breakout"
    Eos Amaterasu: negative-speak is safer than positive-speak
    Calvino Rabeni: Really :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Yeah, that's why most mystics negative-speak
    Calvino Rabeni: I've wondered about that - I think that's not the reason
    Eos Amaterasu: well, it's a side-effect of a more fundamental reason
    Eos Amaterasu: "No one can describe That by saying 'it is this'"
    Calvino Rabeni: Go on ?
    Eos Amaterasu: (hi Eliza)
    Eliza Madrigal: (Hi )
    Eos Amaterasu: Commentary: No one can describe That by saying "it is this or that"
    Calvino Rabeni: They have a choice, they could go either way.
    Eos Amaterasu: So you have to use negative-speak
    Eos Amaterasu: nor is it any particular "that"
    Eos Amaterasu: It is not any particular "this"
    Eos Amaterasu: (amazing lag :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: this came before that
    Eos Amaterasu: but appeared later
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Given the divine in every drop, a "yes-and" language pattern would seem pretty serviceable too
    Calvino Rabeni: More likely it's an early step of training
    Calvino Rabeni: as in "don't be confused"
    Calvino Rabeni: But that doesn't congnize very well, unfortunately
    Eos Amaterasu: Eliza, believe it or not but we are talking about "beyond the beliefs"
    Calvino Rabeni: It could be an expression of culture or personal character also
    Calvino Rabeni: A preference for negatives

    Eliza Madrigal smiles and is happily confused

    Eos Amaterasu: yes, mustn't leap too quickly into our own conclusions
    Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe just a habit left over from suffering - as in the case where the mind is liberated by the feelings never learned to dance
    Eos Amaterasu: it's the best way to be confused :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Since the body got stuck in the lotus position or something
    Eos Amaterasu: and then, just drop the confusion :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: And there's not much going on up there on the mountain
    Calvino Rabeni: and you don't want to "disturb" the other monks
    Eos Amaterasu: you could get into a fight with them
    Eos Amaterasu: "since there is no mirror bright, where can the dust alight?"
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Rumi seems to portray a state of drunkenness and song as symbolic of an enlghtened perspective
    Eos Amaterasu: hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: The mirror analogy suggests an austere eradication of personality
    Eos Amaterasu: like that final scene in Godfather I where he's dying, and just running around in the garden
    Eliza Madrigal feels quite drunk when she reads Rumi :)
    Eos Amaterasu: yeah, the empty mirror bit gets carried away with itself
    Calvino Rabeni: A love affair with the Friend




    Eos Amaterasu: but the mirror can be more
    Eos Amaterasu: "Look into the mirror of your mind, Naropa, the mysterious home of the dakinis" - Tilopa
    Eos Amaterasu: Much juicier
    Calvino Rabeni: the mirror doesn't have much to contribute to life - it is a pure consumer - put two mirrors together, not much happens
    Eos Amaterasu: in some traditions, the mirror is the source of all
    Eos Amaterasu: the mirror doesn't reflect anything _else_
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Else than what?
    Eos Amaterasu: all existence is reflected in itself
    Eos Amaterasu: that's it
    Calvino Rabeni: except itself - it doesn't allow itself a place in existence then
    Eos Amaterasu: at some point it needs negative-speak :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: or, there's nothing else than Being
    Eos Amaterasu: so no external mirror

    Eliza Madrigal: awareness itself appearing as anything at all...

    Calvino Rabeni: negative comes in handy when you need to change direction
    Eos Amaterasu: Eliza!
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eliza Madrigal wonders if she's near the discussion yet... :)
    Eos Amaterasu just witnessed Eliza hitting the bull's eye blindfolded
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Eliza, your're not not on the mark
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal is just listening
    Eos Amaterasu: that may be the mirror itself
    Calvino Rabeni: So is "awareness" like the bland mix of the reality ice cream, to which all qualities and flavors get added?
    Calvino Rabeni: This doesn't seem right, even as a metaphor
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm, yeah, not separate from flavor
    Calvino Rabeni: indeed
    Eos Amaterasu: actuality not separate from flavor, as experienced
    Calvino Rabeni: Whenever "That" appears, it does in some particular way. Being going on a joy ride, revving the engine wildly
    Eos Amaterasu: but not any flavor
    Eliza Madrigal: I should be off to bed. Glad to say hello :) And goodnight :)
    Eos Amaterasu: 'night Eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now. Thank you
    Calvino Rabeni: Sweet dreams, and blessed nothingness
    Eos Amaterasu: The "cosmic mirror" is an image used in the Shambhala tradition of C Trungpa
    Eos Amaterasu: Interesting thing is notion of "drala", which is the opening to the cosmic mirror through particular phenomenality
    Eos Amaterasu: like a tie
    Eos Amaterasu: or a clearing in the woods
    Eos Amaterasu: or a turn of phrase, or sound




    Calvino Rabeni: we lost contact with the freshness and curiosity of experience. - Chögyam Trungpa
    Eos Amaterasu: http://crazywisdomthemovie.com/
    Eos Amaterasu: Indeed.
    Eos Amaterasu: That's why we are here :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: "These experiences are completely new"
    Calvino Rabeni: Drala appears to be an ecstatic teaching
    Eos Amaterasu: ecstatic qua "suddenly free from fixed mind"
    Eos Amaterasu: also super-ordinary :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Idea of "urban retreat" is interesting in that sense
    Calvino Rabeni: Ecstatic as - suddenly animated by a numinous appearance
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, presence greater than your ordinary understanding of yourself
    Calvino Rabeni: A mirror is too flat and impassive to make a good metaphor
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Eos Amaterasu: Nothing works (forever)
    Calvino Rabeni: We're talking - something sensitive and responsive
    Eos Amaterasu: universe has a responsive quality
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe back when this metaphor was made up, mirrors were a fascinating and uncommon device
    Calvino Rabeni: And carried some of that into the description of experience
    Calvino Rabeni: Responsive yes
    Eos Amaterasu: mirror as self-generating CGI
    Calvino Rabeni: funny
    Eos Amaterasu: a lot of these words and images only go so far
    Eos Amaterasu: emtpiness is a huge example
    Eos Amaterasu: It misses that part that was expressed in "2001": "there's stars in there!"
    Calvino Rabeni: True, really it means "more can appear hear than you have already imagined"
    Eos Amaterasu: Yeah. Mingyur Rinpoche did a great gloss: "shunya-ta: shunya = empty; ta = anything can happen"
    Calvino Rabeni: But, the metaphor of the "blank slate" is the worse for wear, these days
    Calvino Rabeni: Exactly
    Eos Amaterasu: the 9 secs, 90 secs, can have that quality
    Eos Amaterasu: it's approached more "positively", in spite of "dropping" language
    Eos Amaterasu: both + and - speak
    Eos Amaterasu: Time to go to bed!
    Calvino Rabeni: After "dropping" then "anything"
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, great talking to you Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: ?Whups
    Eos Amaterasu: (trying the beta browser...)
    Calvino Rabeni: Leap off to dreamland
    Eos Amaterasu: Thanks and good night, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm using it- really like it too
    Calvino Rabeni: sleep well




    Calvino Rabeni: http://westernmountain.org/drala.html
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