2010.03.05 07:00 - Conducive Obscurations

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by a happy Eliza Madrigal, quite full from an enjoyable session with Storm, Sharon, Calvino, and Yakuzza.

    The title of the log is a play on ideas we discussed such as fortuitous circumstances, *stories*, disruptions, dreams, distractions, and obstacles amidst workshops, daily life, and 'urban' retreats. In the end we even manage to turn memory gaps and lapses into mindful material. :)  

    Storm shares with us his good news and peculiar weather...

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Good Morning
    Storm Nordwind: Hi!!
    Storm Nordwind: Yes it is a very good morning.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles. How so?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good morning :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon :))
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Sharon!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Eliza and Storm
    Eliza Madrigal: Lovely to see you both

    Storm Nordwind: It's very good because our wonderful friend Eden has found two documents for me...
    Storm Nordwind: and the weather here is celebrating...
    Storm Nordwind: by being everything good in one day...
    Storm Nordwind: mist, then bright sunshine, with snow and our first rain for months to follow!

    Eliza Madrigal: haha! Delightful! I would guess Eden is beyond thrilled to have found those, too!
    Storm Nordwind: Yes. She's rightly proud of herself
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal imagines the weather looking into its bag and thinking 'what shall I do for this occasion?"
    Storm Nordwind: haha - yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: "I know!" "Everything!"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Eliza Madrigal: heh... Here it is the weather of postcards... light breeze, bright blue...
    Eliza Madrigal: a slight chill in the air...
    Eliza Madrigal: And Sharon?
    Eliza Madrigal: (the weather has had some fun with Sharon this year so far)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sunny smiles here all around
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice!
    Eliza Madrigal: Storm can you tell us about the documents? They must be obscure...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: was it hard to find Storm?
    Storm Nordwind: Very hard to find
    Storm Nordwind: Only in one place on earth it seems now
    Eliza Madrigal: wow
    Storm Nordwind: The originals are 1200 years old
    Eliza Madrigal: What brought you to search for them?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: whoa, rather fortuitous circumstances
    Storm Nordwind: hmmm... long story...
    Storm Nordwind: let's just say I have a strong karmic link with them ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, okay... though long stories are good, too.
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Eliza Madrigal: And yes, wonderful when things line up isn't it!
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps in private one day :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i hope the search has been worthwhile
    Eliza Madrigal: don't mean to pry, but it is very interesting :)
    Storm Nordwind: The search has indeed been worthwhile I believe... hmm... perhaps one day I will share it all, but not here and now :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles

    Just before signing on, I had a little moment, which I get slightly tangled in sharing...

    Eliza Madrigal has a funny little story to share...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: This morning when getting my cereal, I looked out the window to see a buddha garden shadow..
    Eliza Madrigal: with his face covered by a branch...
    Eliza Madrigal: a very thin one. I couldn't stop looking at him...
    Eliza Madrigal: then I realized it was because he was showing me how thin the branch was, but from the perspective of the statue, were he not a buddha, it obscured a lot....
    Eliza Madrigal: whereas from my view (the branch was) just a little wisp :)
    Eliza Madrigal: End story
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a shadow of a buddha figure, or objects casting a shadow resembling a buddha?
    Eliza Madrigal: He's an actual statue...
    Eliza Madrigal: and gave me a little picture lesson....
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: (oops noticed that I did write 'shadow' where I mean to write statue-sorry... fielding an IM just as I began) :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting Eliza I'm still trying to understand
    Eliza Madrigal: ... maybe an inside joke... for me it was about perspective and proportion...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so that which obscures is small
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... though it seems total when up close... right before our eyes
    Eliza Madrigal: and that's how we help one another... holding those two views at once...
    Eliza Madrigal: seeing that for the other it is total and having compassion for that....

    What Sharon has been noticing unfolds both my little story and the rest of the conversation... 

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i spent the last few days imagining that everything i was involved in was just a story
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats what your story reminds me of
    Eliza Madrigal: hmmm, go on?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im so tired :))) just got home from work
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we share the story and also share seeing beyond it too
    Eliza Madrigal: !!
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice
    Eliza Madrigal: we share it lightly...
    Eliza Madrigal: we've been talking a bit about beliefs I noticed in pab, and holding them transparently...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: kept slipping out of that view though, took the story to be real
    Eliza Madrigal: beliefs / dreams/ lessons, even insights... all stories...
    Eliza Madrigal: taking the stories to be real seems part of the dance I guess.... losing ourselves in them for a while
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of Pema and his movie analogies :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the branch up close is the story?
    Eliza Madrigal: it can be I think.... for me it symbolized 'problems' 'obstacles'
    Eliza Madrigal: one can get so wrapped up in that thinking.. seeing things as larger than they are... more solid, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: solid at all :)

    Calvino arrives, and brings up an interesting workshop many attended yesterday...

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Cal!
    Eliza Madrigal: What are you up to today Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello SSL, Storm and Eliza!
    Calvino Rabeni: Mostly study - I'm still in Princeton, although Pema is not in town
    Eliza Madrigal: What are you studying?
    Calvino Rabeni: About half is just thinking about all the ideas raised in recent conversations in RL and PAB
    Eliza Madrigal: Anything you think to share or brainstorm about with us? :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well it's loosely defined, but for instance, the Cafh class yesterday was one thing that seemed worth discussing afterward
    Calvino Rabeni: Here's Yaku, he was there also
    SophiaSharon Larnia: was just thinking about you before you arrived Calvino... your tag 'tell me a story' :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i fell asleep
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Yaku!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Yakuzza
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I was sorry to miss part of it. What I was there for I enjoyed
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: though I guess it is just beginning to take shape
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh i wanted to go to that too
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm interested in the style of communication
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, for me it was just late
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good that it was in voice so i could use my headphones :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and in the presence of "disruptive" viewpoints in the group
    Eliza Madrigal: I missed the crucial introduction unfortunately... how it was framed
    SophiaSharon Larnia: disruptive?
    Storm Nordwind: A newbie who had no idea how to behave
    Yakuzza Lethecus: is there kind of an overview, since i don´t recorded the session ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
    Yakuzza Lethecus: didn´t


    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, you could use that word - or basically, a newbie with really distracting behavior
    Calvino Rabeni: and an experienced member who wished to debate rather than the main thing that was happening in the group, a presentation experientially
    Calvino Rabeni: so there was a disconnect of styles there
    Eliza Madrigal: I was speaking with someone earlier who mentioned that... gave a teaching yesterday also and being a gentle guy has to learn how to deal with intentional disrupters....
    Calvino Rabeni: without labeling either as better, it still appears as a disconnect and a distraction
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: techniques would be different in rl and in sl, i would thing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: think*
    Eliza Madrigal: and kinds of disruptions.... maybe an intentional 'debate' could be set up for such persons who would like to do so...
    Calvino Rabeni: I think this issue may have led to the demise of the phenomenology VIP class that used to be at kira
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've wondered about that too, Calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: SL is tricky in this way.... no facial signals so everything has to be stated implicitly
    Calvino Rabeni: so the question is, should it just be accepted as "well that's SL culture", or are there ways to organize things to have the effects you want
    Eliza Madrigal: and often attendees don't give presenters a chance to establish the pace they'd like to...
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems extremely difficult to create for instance, contemplative or meditative experiences under these conditions
    Eliza Madrigal: or get to know their way of teaching
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it has to be both, personally....
    Eliza Madrigal: the open nature of SL is a gift, too
    Calvino Rabeni: But that won't happen under typical conditions
    Yakuzza Lethecus: if ppl would behave in a polite way like usually in real life it wouldn´t happen, but griefers seem to consider it a game often and bothering at no cost is fairly easy
    Calvino Rabeni: It may be a gift that can be channeled effectively
    Eliza Madrigal: allowing people (like all of us) to wander in :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or asking totally out of context during a lecture
    Calvino Rabeni: the breaking down of context happens in many ways
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i enjoy the openness of pab

    Discernment and Discretion ...

    Eliza Madrigal: Honestly, it is kind of an epidemic in RL too... performances, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: and it's hard to tell griefers from people with inappropriate social skills, etc.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and i accept the griefing around here but there is maybe more reglementation needed in a focused event
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.. or what IS inappropriate... some are more verbal than others....
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, some events need more focus
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Ya
    Eliza Madrigal: The other day Wol banned people rather quickly... during the Malta session....
    Calvino Rabeni: the problem is "flatland" - in RL there are various degrees of openness, appropriate to events. Here there is only one level of openness
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, perhaps, but in RL there are the same things which hold us back from setting or deciding upon boundaries...
    Eliza Madrigal: which side to err on, etc
    Calvino Rabeni: The Cafh class had a nice meditation session in it, but that requires a "retreat" environment from the open somewhat random interactions of "flat" SL
    Eliza Madrigal: I mentioned the banning because there have been times I should have trusted instincts and done so, not necessarily here, but it is hard to do even when you know its appropriate :)
    Calvino Rabeni: As far as "erring" - it wouldn't be erring to create a variety of environments with different degrees of openness
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure
    Calvino Rabeni: there is no "one size fits all" way for groups to be :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you worry about repercussions Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Surely not, Cal
    Eliza Madrigal: Sharon, yes... or just not going the extra mile, etc :)
    Storm Nordwind banned the person yesterday, but only after he had gone voluntarily and at least 10 minutes after his last warning
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, did you. You must have done that discretely... didnt notice!
    Storm Nordwind is (sometimes) the master of discretion :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal remembers when Storm let me eject him for practice...hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we were wondering about that Storm
    Storm Nordwind ducks
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Storm the Bouncer :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So do we have ideas then, for retreats and such?
    Storm Nordwind smiles modestly

    Cal brings up the urban retreat coming up in April, and Storm gives an idea for an exploration in that context... 

    Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering how an urban retreat setting could be used
    Calvino Rabeni: Like the upcoming one in San Francisco
    Eliza Madrigal: I've been thinking about it a bit... how to structure them in SL, too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all, im off to nap, and Eliza, to think about your shadow branch....
    Storm Nordwind: There must be exercises that could be done to take advantage of public proximity
    Calvino Rabeni: There seems like a lot more to "drop" in such a setting
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye, Sharon, Sweet dreams :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye SSL
    Storm Nordwind waves
    SophiaSharon Larnia: see you later ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: but it highlights 'dropping' as a continual process rather than an exercize?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that could be worked with also, good point
    Calvino Rabeni: Urban environments are regarded as distracting and tense and discontinuous etc.

    Storm Nordwind: Since some activities (like meals) will be in public spaces, one example of an exercise would be to see the effect that group 'dropping' or other practice had on the people around you. We normally do this just with ourselves, but it might be interesting to see the effect of a group

    Calvino Rabeni: Can that be dropped, is the question (rhetorically)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohh Storm what a neat idea
    Calvino Rabeni: We are urban social creatures - can that be dropped?
    Storm Nordwind: sure it can Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Surely, a good practice
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i think it´s facinating to do a retreat in the urban environment because that´s closer to appying in in real life
    Eliza Madrigal: I think there have been studies of seratonin levels of people walking 'outside' of where 'mindful events' were taking place
    Calvino Rabeni: agree Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: showing a real effect
    Storm Nordwind: fascinating Eliza. Do you have a reference for that?
    Eliza Madrigal: let me see if I can find one...

    :) Later, I did find a few references for the reference...


    Calvino Rabeni: Creating the presence in oneself and group seems a preliminary to affecting others
    Calvino Rabeni: But I think it can be done in little, perceptible ways, quickly
    Calvino Rabeni: observation is a big part of it I think
    Calvino Rabeni: because the thing to observe is no longer just "within"
    Storm Nordwind: With a big group, one can assign roles as practitioners and observers
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, seems not to come up too easily... I heard about it in a talk with deepak chopra once
    Calvino Rabeni: that would make an interesting "experiment" :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: having ppl around to share experiences when there happen is propably a great thing, i never created a notebook for myself and thinking about lucid dreaming and remembering dreams made me thinking about the memory issue of these little things more
    Eliza Madrigal: (not me talking to deepak mind you-heh)
    Calvino Rabeni: && I need to go catch my bus to the office - see you later :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye cal
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Eliza Madrigal: (though I did have a dream of sitting with him and eckhart tolle together in kira cafe one night) heheh
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Cal :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: eckart tolle ?
    Storm Nordwind: I hope they joined the Kira Cafe SL group Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I hope I invited them... would have been impolite not to
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bolonath talks about him alot

    Processing, Integration, Writing, and Memory...

    Eliza Madrigal: So Ya, are you going to set up a notebook?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, i don´t
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i sometimes think i should
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i started a couple of time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: s
    Eliza Madrigal: it may help with integrating all the things you are learning/taking in, here, also... and in time workshop... place for notes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ups
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, sorry bell :)
    Storm Nordwind reminds himself to type up all own recent notes
    Eliza Madrigal: I know both Storm and I kept blogs...
    Eliza Madrigal: I still do but not public
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i just don´t reread my notes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i start and have no feeling for priority
    Storm Nordwind: Note taking is difficult for me. I am not naturally a reflective type
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i search something and have no clue how to find that fast
    Yakuzza Lethecus: if i don´t find things fast i am too lazy often
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes its enough just to get them out there... no particular order... let them sort themselves....
    Storm Nordwind: tags can be useful for finding things
    Eliza Madrigal: You aren't Storm? That seems surprising

    The NOW in all its glory...

    Storm Nordwind: No Eliza. I have often felt in the past that reflection robs me of experiencing the NOW in all its glory!
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm... immediacy
    Storm Nordwind: The idea being that the NOW now is more precious than the NOW then! (Or an imagined NOW in the future)
    Storm Nordwind: Thus I have forgone opportunities to learn by reflection
    Eliza Madrigal: what about the larger now? the now that encompases then and there? sometimes writing helps to drop things...
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, or maybe it helps those who hold onto them :)
    Storm Nordwind: That's the now that I inhabit anyway (at least nowadays! ;) . I have little baggage i think compared to most people - rather less to odrop it seems
    Eliza Madrigal: and yet you have a good memory... hm. I have some of that quality but it is due to memory issues :)
    Storm Nordwind: No I have a poor memory (I think so anyway)
    Storm Nordwind: I have a memory like a ... er ... you know... one of those things with holes in it ... ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: *remembers storm making memory jokes*
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Eliza Madrigal smiles.... hm... well memory with regard to historical facts and such I'm thinking....
    Eliza Madrigal: those just dance right by me
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: actually i seem to have a good memory for negative things
    Eliza Madrigal: funny thing to notice, Ya
    Storm Nordwind: That's what Google is for nowadays. And librarians in days gone by :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes :) Maybe memory is antiquated
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Yakuzza Lethecus: what would we do if the internet would drop globally ? :)
    Storm Nordwind: I am (in traditional Tibetan terms) the "leaky pot"
    Eliza Madrigal: :)))
    Eliza Madrigal: Well... this is actually fascinating...
    Eliza Madrigal: because in thinking of contemplative environments and effects... ie new ways of relating...
    Eliza Madrigal: what a thought that interractions become more in the 'now' than exchanging facts, etc...
    Eliza Madrigal: going beyond that
    Eliza Madrigal: as a rule rather than exception
    Eliza Madrigal: default. Its a neat idea
    Eliza Madrigal: so simple but seems radical anyway :)
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye for now, take care you both
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye ya :)
    Eliza Madrigal wonders if she justifies her memory problems by turning them into a contemplative gift... hehe
    Storm Nordwind: hehe!
    Storm Nordwind: If life gives you lemons, make lemonade! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed :)
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you Eliza for hosting a lovely session this morning
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for attending Storm, always appreciate your company
    Storm Nordwind: These morning sessions I find very precious somehow
    Eliza Madrigal smiles. They do set the day in a happy frame
    Storm Nordwind: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste'

    Viewing 1 of 1 comments: view all
    Originally written on 18:37, 05 Mar 2010
    Thank you for the reference Eliza! Seems to be included in "Beyond Medicine, exploring a new way of thinking" by Dr. Richard A. DiCenso, which is available on Amazon.
    Posted 14:51, 9 Apr 2010
    Viewing 1 of 1 comments: view all
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core