2010.03.13 19:00 - Flickering Lights and Fallen Trees

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema. The comments are by Pema.

    Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
    Pema Pera: hi there, Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    Pema Pera: Good to see you again!
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Pila, Pema
    Pema Pera: and hi Eos!
    Pila Mulligan: I just finished doing taxes and felt a need to air out my brain
    Pema Pera: Pila, I had been trying to email you back, but we have had a power outage in Princeton throughout the last ten hours or so -- and no way of knowing when the servers will be up again
    Pema Pera: I'm glad to live in New York -- but I run my email through my work computer in Princeton :)
    Pila Mulligan: a few weeks ago, Eos, I finally grapsed the idea tha E=MC2 involves a constant, and so I wrote Pema about some thoughts related thereto
    Pila Mulligan: no worries Pema, no hurry
    Pema Pera: hi Arch
    Pila Mulligan: Urban Life
    Pila Mulligan: hi Arch
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Arch
    Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
    Pema Pera: Hi Paradise!
    Pila Mulligan: nice outfit :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Nice flight
    Pila Mulligan: swimming about :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Einstein was correct......but to think there is a constant in the multi-verse....is to say that it is possible to have an absolute asumption
    Paradise Tennant: hiya pema eos pila arch :) lol I know I have a "the littlest mermaid " fixation
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, it took me 64 years to grasp the simple part, so I am a little hopeless for grapsing the rest
    Eos Amaterasu: simplicity is the hardest to grasp
    Pila Mulligan: thenks, Esoe -- encouraging
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: mermaids are something of an archtype Paradise
    Pila Mulligan: archetype*
    Paradise Tennant: yes they are :)
    Paradise Tennant: an interesting myth
    Archmage Atlantis: Funny that
    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Stevenaia
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    Archmage Atlantis: Myth is based in past reality
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Pema Pera: Glad to see that you at least have power! Much of NJ seems to be still without, at least around Princeton
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve :)
    Archmage Atlantis: That may or may not come to apply again
    Archmage Atlantis: And hello Steve
    Paradise Tennant: so sorry to hear that pema do you have power?
    Steve provided the title for our session.
    stevenaia Michinaga: We have had out moments of "flickering lights" and fallen trees
    Pila Mulligan: it this electric problem weather related (seems Sharon had no electiricty recently also)
    stevenaia Michinaga: *our
    Archmage Atlantis: Pema has great power, just not tied to the electrical grid
    Pema Pera: I do, Paradise; I live in New York -- but all my email goes through my work computer, so I have extra leisure today :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, heavy rains and winds
    Pila Mulligan: ahh
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm we have heavy winds here and very high high winds .. dog stuck his nose out the door just now and promptly turned around to come back in :)
    Pema Pera: I understand that -- I behaved the same today :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Eos Amaterasu: ain't a fit night out for man or beast :-)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Pila Mulligan: I still have the small photvoltaic system I used before the house was finished, it would work okay for an emeregency (I hope)
    Archmage Atlantis: We had our first monsoon the last day ad 1/2
    Paradise Tennant: thought just that thought eos
    Pema Pera: plants have no choice . . . .
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at pila :) always good to be prepared
    Pila Mulligan: yes, they must endure it
    Pema Pera: or in case of trees they may decide to fall on power lines
    Pema Pera: bringing long awaited breaks for frantic email users :)
    Archmage Atlantis: The land around us became swamp land again
    stevenaia Michinaga: never thought of email being stuck in a storm
    From the sound of trees falling in a forest back to the Big Bang.
    Pila Mulligan: if I may digress, please, what exactly is the 'It' that expands away from the Big Bang singularity/starting point?
    stevenaia Michinaga: does it jsut dissappear of there is no place to deliver it?
    Pema Pera: that depends on your interpretation
    Pila Mulligan: I, fortunately, habve nomne :0
    Pila Mulligan: have none*
    Pema Pera: from a space time point of view, nothing "moves" there is a just a spacetime continuum
    Pila Mulligan: how does it expand?
    Pila Mulligan: or does it?
    Pema Pera: from a space point of view, space expands
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Pema Pera: a simple way to give a bit of an idea is to say:
    Archmage Atlantis: WE are small bits of flotsum in spacetime
    Pema Pera: "the big bang was not an explosion in space, but an explosion of space"
    Pema Pera: but those metaphorical ideas only capture part of the physics
    Pila Mulligan: space expands but space-time does not ...
    Pema Pera: space could be said to expand, in the course of time, with time passing
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Pema Pera: given that "time passing" is our normal reference way of looking at things
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: it's all compromise :)
    Pila Mulligan: is there a non-photon correalte in terms of dark
    Paradise Tennant: what would be the no compromise version :)
    Pila Mulligan: assuming photon is a unit of light
    Archmage Atlantis: Or relative :)
    Pema Pera: dark energy is not related to photons
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Pema Pera: and we simply don't know what it is made out of
    Pila Mulligan: is there a 'no compromise' version?
    Pema Pera: and ultimately everything is "made out of" some kind of building blocks at the tiniest of scales, at the Planck length, we expect -- but we don't have an agreed-upon complete theory for that scale yet
    Pila Mulligan: this is like quarks?
    Pema Pera: so we only have approximate theories (like general relativity and quantum field theories), and the uncompromised form of those theories are the mathematical equations -- not the words used to try to make a bit of flamoyant sense of it
    Archmage Atlantis: All things are infinitely expandable, and infinitely divideable
    Pila Mulligan: ahh
    It is always fun to try to summarize things (whether physics or play as Being or whatever): I always find I learn from it myself, seeing things just a little bit more clearly, finding new ways of expressing/viewing.
    Pema Pera: so the words are twice removed from (physical) reality: approximations to what are already approximate theories
    Pema Pera: quarks are given in terms of quantum field theories (specifically, chromodynamics)
    stevenaia Michinaga: is time a "part" of any of this make-up, or just a sequential measuring device
    Pema Pera: and so are photons (electrodynamics)
    Paradise Tennant: even the math is an approximate interpretation of premises :) observations :)
    Pema Pera: the latter, Steve
    Pema Pera: but observations are also approximate :)
    Pema Pera: the math is the presentation of attempts at extrapolating observations
    Paradise Tennant: smiles all guesses :)
    Archmage Atlantis: yes, well said Paradise
    stevenaia Michinaga: so all of this energy or and things that things are made out of are defined w/o regard of time?
    Pema Pera: so words are approximate ways to characterize approximating attempts at extrapolations of observations :-)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Widget
    Widget Whiteberry: good evening
    Pema Pera: time and space are in first approximation the stage on which everything else takes place
    Pema Pera: but in general relativity, the stage itself takes part in the dynamic dance
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello widget
    Pema Pera: hi Widget!
    Widget Whiteberry smiles and settles in
    Pema Pera: but not (yet) in our best quantum field theories
    Pema Pera: where time is still a parameter
    Paradise Tennant: with lots of numbers ... reminds me of the scene from brian greene's elegant universe series where he was trying to teach .. quantum physics to a black lab ..makes me feell distinctly . like a puppy :)
    Pema Pera: spacetime is, to be more precise
    Pema Pera: a black lab whose belly you can scratch, or a room without lights on?
    Paradise Tennant: hiya widget :) gtsy
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Pila Mulligan: I have this imagined ideal of seeking an integrated understanding of reality that accommodates, as far as possible, both physics and metaphysics -- without getting caught up too much in fantasy
    Paradise Tennant: lol thinks it is all fantasy :)
    Pema Pera: physics may be still far to young to try and do that, Pila
    I agreed with Pila, but was a bit cautious; perhaps in a thousand years or so?
    Pila Mulligan: it could be
    Pila Mulligan: but it is fun to imagine
    Widget Whiteberry: physics and metaphysics sound like really borad categories to me
    Pila Mulligan: indeed, Widget
    Widget Whiteberry: um, broad
    Widget Whiteberry: which physics, which metaphysics do you want to accommodate
    Archmage Atlantis: To image is to grow........to list imagination as real?
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/elegant/
    Pila Mulligan: as much as can be grokked, I suppose
    Archmage Atlantis: Stealing from Heinleing :)
    Pema Pera: every half century or so, philosophers, psychologists, etc, have used the physics of their day to make pictures for their own kind of insight . . . clockwork, levers and pullies, electric fields, hydrolic devices, quantum mechanics, etc
    Pema Pera: so yes, Widget, physics is very much a moving target
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Widget Whiteberry: all those pattern seeking minds at work
    Pila Mulligan: Pema, are you familair with Ted Palmer?
    Pila Mulligan: speakingof patterns
    Pila Mulligan: http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/03/theory-of-space-time-with-quantum-scale.html
    Pema Pera: no, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: he has written about fractals as a birdge between relativity and quantum physics
    Pila Mulligan: needless to say, wayy over my head
    Pila Mulligan: but interesting to sepculate about
    Pila Mulligan: the New York Times ahd an article about his theory last year
    Pila Mulligan: or some such news source
    Archmage Atlantis: Yet you read it Pila, and chose to quote it here
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I find it interesting, Arch -- the concept of patterns in building blocks
    Pema Pera: that web site seems like yet another way to deny the quantum mechanical "spontaneity" of nature by postpulating some hidden causality underneath -- which seems to me like going backwards
    Pila Mulligan: dig
    Pila Mulligan: causation is king
    Pema Pera: most philosophers, and quite a few physicists don't like to give up classical causality
    Pila Mulligan: yes, there is an attachment
    Pila Mulligan: after all, we like logic
    Pema Pera: the kind of metaphysics that I am interested in relates to physics like a movie projector relates to a movie, roughly speaking, so there is not much overlap in equal terms . . . . .
    Pila Mulligan: nice analogy
    Pila Mulligan: but they are amde for each other -- film and projector
    Pema Pera: physics is the story of our realm -- and then there is the question of how any realm arises
    Pema Pera: or does it?
    Pema Pera: does anything ever arise?
    Pema Pera: or are there only appearances?
    Pema Pera: or just the presence of appearance
    Pema Pera: in a non-appearaing non-arising timeless way?
    Pema Pera: that's more the metaphysics I am interested in :-)
    Pila Mulligan: ur cultural spectrum of perception (thinks Aldus Huxley) also limimts our sceince
    Pila Mulligan: our*
    Paradise Tennant: hmm the movie projector version of reality reminds me of some of the buddhist explanations of samsara
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pila Mulligan: we have ouor attention directed by our social environment
    Pila Mulligan: or even PLato's Cave explanaiton
    Pema Pera: the practical challenge is to dare to turn our gaze around, so to speak -- there is a kind of decisiveness that is needed, yes, like getting out of the cave
    Pema Pera: the topic that Eos suggested for the next theme meeting on 3/28 !
    I was trying to segue into a sneak preview of that meeting, but alas, Eos was too quick for me.
    Eos Amaterasu: (sorry, must go)
    Pila Mulligan: but rememeber the final admonition in the allegory ... :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
    Pema Pera: oops, I mean 3/30
    Pema Pera: bye Eos!
    Pema Pera: haha, he decisively left!!
    Widget Whiteberry: what topic?
    Archmage Atlantis: I recommend a DVD, also a Netflix instant view, called "Examined Life"
    Pema Pera: 2010.03.30 19:00 - Be Decisive, Know What Is, See Clearly : Eliza/Eos
    Pema Pera: on http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Theme_Sessions
    Widget Whiteberry: ^^
    Widget Whiteberry: ty
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Arch
    Pema Pera: normally we would read that sentence the other way around
    Archmage Atlantis: Tht and another called "Beer Wars" :}
    Pema Pera: so it's interesting to start with "decisive"
    Pila Mulligan: oooh, and 2010.03.28 13:00 - Time, Space, Knowledge : Maxine/Pema
    Pila Mulligan: nice to see these, thanks
    Pema Pera: they are also on the bulletin board behind us!
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Pema Pera: near the entrance here
    The conversation switches to time keeping and railroads, an important element in sharpening time keeping.
    Pila Mulligan: by the way the daylight savings time change is coming up -- it is this weekend for the Americas but at the end of the month for Europe (a gap that can cause confusion with SLT sometimes)
    Pema Pera: Hawaii does not change, right?
    Archmage Atlantis: AS if being on West Coast time wasn't confuring enough
    stevenaia Michinaga: seem strange of there to be a daylight savings time in SL
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: daylight is being saved here every four hours . . . .
    Pila Mulligan: true, Pema, unchaginng here
    Archmage Atlantis: Especially when one has friends in Europe and Asia were not already confusing
    Archmage Atlantis: My Dad worked for the railroads when time was standarized accross the US
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: was he an engineer?
    Archmage Atlantis: I still have his pocket watch
    Archmage Atlantis: No, a Railroad Detective
    Pila Mulligan: I did a brief stint as a brakeman for the Chicago Northwestern
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at arch he must have had many many stories :)
    Pila Mulligan: it was like living in the 19th Century
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at pila and noisy no ?
    Archmage Atlantis: They sent him in when things went wrong
    Pila Mulligan: it was not so noisy actually, Paradise
    Pila Mulligan: being outside
    Pila Mulligan: was he with Pinkerton's Arch
    Pila Mulligan: they did a lot of that type work
    Archmage Atlantis: No, at that time the Railroad
    Archmage Atlantis: had their own
    Pila Mulligan: social rhetoric is a function of technology -- a lot of it came from the railroad times (being on the right track, etc.)
    Widget Whiteberry: interesting Pila
    Pila Mulligan: the high tech of the 1800's :)
    Widget Whiteberry: have you looked for any non tech sources
    Pila Mulligan: fortunately there are many -- poetry, etc
    Widget Whiteberry smiles
    Pila Mulligan: but the techie ones seem to get a kind of elevated status
    Archmage Atlantis: Another recommendation then ... the music of "Woody Guthrie"
    Pila Mulligan: :) and his son, too
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at arch :) love woody guthrie :)
    Widget Whiteberry: rec for what Archmage - I really* like their music
    Widget Whiteberry: ack, brb
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Arlo's songs were song by talented ppl at my freshmen college class
    Pila Mulligan: did you see Willie Nelson's band got busted in a small town in North Carolina just before concert? they left town wihtout doing the show -- Willie said he had a sore hand :) (probably meaning an angry stage hand)
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.komonews.com/news/enterta.../83045787.html
    Pema Pera: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Artists are tempermental......it is their job.......just as it ours to be
    Pema Pera: see you all next time!
    Widget Whiteberry: nice seeing all of you
    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you
    Paradise Tennant: smiels take care pema widget :)
    Widget Whiteberry: g'nite
    Pema Pera: sleep well, short as the night may be . . . .
    stevenaia Michinaga: night, stay dry
    Pila Mulligan: hope the weather gives you guys a break soon
    Paradise Tennant: smiles take care steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: thx
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
    Pila Mulligan departs also -- nice to see you Paradise and Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Paradise......you have been quiet.....
    Paradise Tennant: well I think I will scoot too arch .. hope you have a great nite hon :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes ..sometimes it is good to be quiet :)
    Paradise Tennant: big wave from toronto :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I wish for women like my mom that take a stand
    Archmage Atlantis: Bye
    Paradise Tennant: byeeeeeee
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