2010.03.18 13:00 - gift- or market economy

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Liza Deischer. The comments are by Liza Deischer.

    Present: Arabella, Agatha, QT, Bleu, Calvino, Wol (dropping in late), Liza



    Liza Deischer: hi Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: Good day!




    Liza Deischer: home again?

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes

    Liza Deischer: glad to be home?

    Liza Deischer: or are you missing princeton already :-)

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, good to have a place to settle, after travel

    Liza Deischer: you're okay?

    Calvino Rabeni: Basically - I am feeling distracted - now attempting to drop some multitasking

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Calvino Rabeni: Having more than one computer monitor can be a temptation

    Liza Deischer: yes, that certainly can be

    Qt Core: hi all

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello

    Liza Deischer: but it's okay with me

    Liza Deischer: hi QT

    Liza Deischer: just wondering if it was a sign of something else

    Calvino Rabeni: What for instance?

    Bleu Oleander: hi!

    Liza Deischer: well, maybe there was something on your mind

    Qt Core: hi bleu

    Liza Deischer: hi Bleu

    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, mostly just the jumble of things I was working on - I'd be glad to entertain someone's topic however?

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone

    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku

    Qt Core: hi yaku

    Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku

    Liza Deischer: hi Agatha

    Agatha Macbeth: Hi everybody :)

    Bleu Oleander: hey Agatha :)

    Qt Core: hi Agatha

    Agatha Macbeth: Bzzz bzzzz

    Bleu Oleander: buzzzzzzzzz


    I feel some quiet evening coming up, so I ask for a topic but get the answer straight back. I come up with the first thing I can think of and that is a funny situation in which friends of mine gathered spontaneously and after hearing what I was looking for, started to make chairs or were looking in there invent to find one. 


    Liza Deischer: somebody who wants to bring in a topic?

    Liza Deischer: has become aware of something

    Calvino Rabeni: yes?

    Liza Deischer: is that a yes Cal?

    Calvino Rabeni: Have you become aware of something, Liza?

    Liza Deischer: me?

    Liza Deischer: hmmmmm, let me think

    Liza Deischer: well, I gues I have been wondering why everyone is so helpful on sl

    Liza Deischer: as we often keep our distances in rl

    Agatha Macbeth: You can't switch RL off! ;-)


    Bleu Oleander: safer here?

    Qt Core: that's why, you don't risk to be raped or robbed

    Agatha Macbeth nods

    Qt Core: just answering a question

    Liza Deischer: and I only came up with that it costs less time

    Liza Deischer: I have a feeling there is more to it

    Qt Core: as for everything ;-)

    Liza Deischer: at the same time it influences our relationships

    Calvino Rabeni: yes a lot more :)

    Agatha Macbeth: Maybe we're all just nice people

    Liza Deischer: that too :-)

    Calvino Rabeni: Being that way, is what SL is FOR

    Calvino Rabeni: it is a place to come and do that kind of thing

    Liza Deischer: it is sl that evokes it?

    Qt Core: someone that log in here surely has a wish to meet people, even if only to sell them something they built, so it is even or only public relations

    Calvino Rabeni: it is like a cruise ship - a place to go be social - with not much else to do there

    Liza Deischer: that doesn't explain why everybody is so helpful

    Liza Deischer: and because of that it attracts a certain kind of people

    Calvino Rabeni: Cooperation rises because people like it - in the absence of duties competition roles, and the usual relationships of industrial productivity

    Liza Deischer: like having no annoying boss

    Calvino Rabeni: To answer the question, ask yourself - "Why do I come here, and what do I want from it?"

    Calvino Rabeni: And probably, being helpful is part of the answer :)

    Liza Deischer: I guess I'm not very much different here then in rl if it comes to that

    Agatha Macbeth: True Cal

    Liza Deischer: but need to say there are more interactions here, so maybe that makes the difference

    Bleu Oleander: friendship, new ideas, tech challenges, international voices, and more

    Liza Deischer: it has become part of the answer, but it wasn't what made me explore sl

    Bleu Oleander: what made you come in to sl?


    Then Calvino comes up with a first real answer: the gift-economy. Is sl a gift-economy is what becomes the question 

    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of little cooperative tasks to be done - it is a gift economy

    Liza Deischer: to see what it was all about after interviewing someone

    Liza Deischer: a gift economy, yes that sounds close enough

    Liza Deischer: I heard that word (gift economy) not so long ago

    Liza Deischer: something to do with virtuality, cell-phones, sms and so on

    Calvino Rabeni: hmm, that would be to co-opt the idea into a technical realm

    Liza Deischer: as an explanation of why people around are so annoyed by somebody calling in the middle of the street

    Liza Deischer: and still everyone is doing it


    a small intermezzo with a real vote going on 

    Calvino Rabeni: Who finds that annoying?

    Liza Deischer: a lot of people

    Liza Deischer: listening to a conversation in the train when you can only hear one side

    Calvino Rabeni: If we took a vote of the six here, how many would say "annoying" ?

    Liza Deischer: me

    Agatha Macbeth: What?

    Calvino Rabeni: not me, I don't think

    Liza Deischer: okay.....

    Liza Deischer: if somebody else has an other topic, you're very much welcome to it

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Bleu Oleander: on a train sitting next to me maybe but in general accept it

    Calvino Rabeni: any other votes? :)

    Qt Core: np, love to see the borgified people around ;-)

    Liza Deischer: why is this voting so important

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: @liza, about the "voting" thing earlier - I think, there are public tastemakers who say things like "talking on cell is rude" and the public kind of accepts that passively, without knowing if it is an actual public feeling or not - there is no objectivity unless people communicate personal impressions public ally

    Bleu Oleander: I find if someone has put a lot of effort into a quality product i'm willing to pay them and support them in RL or SL

    Liza Deischer: (@Cal, maybe so, but if I hear a lot of people complaining about it and it feels not good to me either, I guess it is more then a tastemaker)


    so, back to the economics of sl. But what is it gift- of market economy, or both. Most of the men in this gathering seem to have another opinion about that then most of the women sitting here. Who would ever have guessed that it is the women who see sl as a market-economy. But well, if you think it through.....

    Bleu Oleander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gift_economy ... i'm not sure I would call SL a gift economy ... lots of peeps expect payment for there services here

    Agatha Macbeth nods

    Liza Deischer: true

    Calvino Rabeni: But the norm is leaning more towards offer and exchange, overall

    Bleu Oleander: a lot of real money exchanges hands here every day

    Liza Deischer: I think so too

    Calvino Rabeni: And one of the attractions is that everything is not as totally commoditized as in RL

    Bleu Oleander: not sure I agree with that

    Calvino Rabeni: The percentage of things in my inventory that I paid for is very small, for instance

    Bleu Oleander: you haven't looked in my inventory then hehe

    Calvino Rabeni: whereas in RL, it is the other way around

    Liza Deischer: there is a lot of money going around, but you can live here without spending much

    Liza Deischer: it is not a necessity

    arabella Ella: Hiya!

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello

    Liza Deischer: hi ara

    Agatha Macbeth: Hello Ara :)

    Bleu Oleander: hi Ara

    Qt Core: if not for tips i've spent 1 L$ in the year and a half i stayed here

    Bleu Oleander: wow that's amazing Qt

    Liza Deischer: and if I need something, a script or anything else, I've got friends who like to do that

    arabella Ella: arghhhh ... takes me ages to rez!!!

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they deserve the support

    Liza Deischer: but it probably depends on what you spent if you want to define it as a gift-economy

    Liza Deischer: meaning it depends on what your purpose is

    Liza Deischer: and if money is involved in that purpose

    Bleu Oleander: sl is more like a market economy

    Calvino Rabeni: Helpfulness is one of the "gifts" that is given in SL

    arabella Ella nods

    Bleu Oleander: helpfulness is given in rl too

    arabella Ella: I think spending money here depends on three things related to the individual of course

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, in some places

    arabella Ella: whether they own property and pay tier

    arabella Ella: whether they enjoy better quality stuff like hair and clothes etc

    Agatha Macbeth: :)

    arabella Ella: whether they enjoy giving tips for good performances

    Bleu Oleander: all three for me :)

    Liza Deischer: yes, I think that side of sl is pretty much market driven

    arabella Ella: i heard recently people on this and other similar platforms spend on average around US 70 per month each

    Qt Core: only the third one and that is in contrast to my idea tyhat i'm not investing rl money in sl

    Bleu Oleander: why not invest real money in sl?

    Bleu Oleander: you're paying for the experience

    Qt Core: as for me it started just as a "glorified" chat, i never payed for them i would not pay for this

    Bleu Oleander: you pay real money for tv and movies which are a lot less interactive and creative

    Liza Deischer: owning property an paying tier is almost not sl-like to me

    Qt Core: i pay money for tv as it is a tax on tv set property here nothing more

    arabella Ella: but then you pay tips Qt?

    arabella Ella: which are voluntary

    Qt Core: yes


    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, "not sl-like" - what then is the ideal of SL? I would suggest "gift economy" might characterize it?

    Liza Deischer: to me yes

    Liza Deischer: but i agree that owning land makes a lot of difference

    arabella Ella: why do you voluntarily pay tips Qt?

    Calvino Rabeni: A corrupting influence ? :)


    finally it seems to come all down to shopping (and maybe seduction). But Bleu seems to have found the only good answer: spending money in sl is cheaper then in rl

    Liza Deischer: selling land and paying tier is where the money is in sl

    Bleu Oleander: also in shoes and hair :)

    Bleu Oleander: and skins too

    Qt Core: as performances/discussions leading can't generate repeatable income like selling 1000s of built things

    Calvino Rabeni: The capitalist model, imported into a virtual world

    Liza Deischer: yes, but that is something where you have a choice

    Bleu Oleander: yes Cal

    Bleu Oleander: you have a choice in rl also

    Qt Core: as the person is "spending time" as i'm "using" it

    Calvino Rabeni: It creates convenience, at a psychic price

    arabella Ella: concerning the SL economy I also came across people selling RL stuff in SL which is interesting similar to mail order

    Bleu Oleander: yes, that too Ara

    arabella Ella: and of course you get huge corporations who lease islands for their meetings and other business

    arabella Ella: who of course pay LL

    arabella Ella: i originally had thoughts similar to those of Qt and I am amazed how my mentality on spending money here changed over time

    Bleu Oleander: mine too

    Qt Core: spending money then isn't even a relaxing thing, you have to go shopping, brrrr ;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: The real "goods" here are the human presences - Linden is making big money on what we all provide for freee

    Agatha Macbeth loves shopping

    Qt Core: hate it, both sl and rl ;-)

    Agatha Macbeth: Aww

    Liza Deischer: Maybe sl-economy is mainly driven by women

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Agatha Macbeth: That's why it works!

    Bleu Oleander finds i do less shopping in rl if I shop in sl .... saves $$

    Qt Core: joke aside, starting to spend money you have to choose land, build an house (or whatever), that's time!

    Bleu Oleander: tv and movies are time too

    Calvino Rabeni: true

    arabella Ella: that is easy Qt you can buy land with a property you like already built there

    arabella Ella: and Calvino ... what do you mean?

    arabella Ella: about SL making money on what we do?

    Qt Core: yes, i watch very little, around 2h a week

    Calvino Rabeni: The real draw in SL is the people - and their gifts of self and time

    Calvino Rabeni: the money economy here is secondary to the gift economy


    The Cafhers are leaving

    Calvino Rabeni: ** GTG, thanks for the discussion everyone :)

    Agatha Macbeth: Bye Cal

    Qt Core: bye Calvino

    Bleu Oleander: bye Cal

    Agatha Macbeth: Is it Cafh tonight?

    arabella Ella: bye Calvino


    Liza Deischer: yes

    Agatha Macbeth: Ah, thanks Liza

    Agatha Macbeth: C ya folks

    Liza Deischer: I'm going also too Cafh

    arabella Ella: bye to those leaving

    Bleu Oleander: bye Agatha and Liza

    Qt Core: bye cafhers ;-)

    Liza Deischer: but will read the rest in the log :-)

    Liza Deischer: cu


    A good Italian movie, called Vincere


    arabella Ella: Did i tell you Qt I watched a very interesting but sad Italian movie in RL last week called Vincere?

    Qt Core: no

    Qt Core: i don't know what it is about

    arabella Ella: ah it participated at some film festivals last year

    arabella Ella: it is about Lisa Dalser one of Mussolini's lovers who had a son from him but who he rejected

    arabella Ella: and who ended up in a lunatic asylum ... so did the son

    arabella Ella: and they both died in lunatic asylums

    arabella Ella: very sad

    Bleu Oleander: what a sad story!

    arabella Ella: yes my heart was so heavy when it finished

    Qt Core: the kind of movies i never watch (cinema is for have fun/relax for me.... i know there are people that like to cry at movies too)

    arabella Ella: well I enjoy documentary style movies too as one learns a great deal from them

    arabella Ella: and what is interesting in this one is the mix of movie clips with real newsreels

    Qt Core: yes, some special exception can be made ;-)

    arabella Ella: of course :)

    arabella Ella: like some of the excellent documentaries on italian TV

    Qt Core: (like this movie: http://www.imax.com/hubble/ i have to find a theatre equipped with imax 3d!)

    arabella Ella: yes unfortunately we no longer have an imax theatre here :(

    Bleu Oleander: i enjoy documentary movies too

    Qt Core: while a kid i watched soo many documentaries about galapagos turtles and penguins... i was an expert ;-)

    Bleu Oleander: funny!

    Bleu Oleander: ever been?

    arabella Ella: i prefer documentaries about history or archaeology mainly

    arabella Ella: or technology and innovation too

    Qt Core: so you love the Angela family i suppose, ara

    arabella Ella: perhaps 'love' is too strong a word Qt

    arabella Ella: but i admire their work

    arabella Ella: and there is the other guy too cant remember his name ...cecchi paone?

    arabella Ella: (cant spell it)

    Qt Core: Piero and Alberto ANgela are great cultural/scientific show host

    arabella Ella: oh yes they are

    Qt Core: you got it right

    arabella Ella: oh ... surprise!

    arabella Ella: the ones in the indiana jones style are the best!

    arabella Ella: they must all have huge budgets

    Bleu Oleander: will have to look them up!

    arabella Ella: they are excellent Bleu ... but I doubt whether they come in English too

    arabella Ella: which is a pity

    arabella Ella: do you understand italian?

    Bleu Oleander: too bad

    Bleu Oleander: no

    arabella Ella: owwww


    Qt Core: some were translated as they were international coproductions (i think)

    arabella Ella: ah ... did not know that


     Some more are leaving

    arabella Ella: must go now ... nite all!

    Bleu Oleander: bye Ara

    Qt Core: 'night ara

    Bleu Oleander: gtg too

    arabella Ella: and thanks Bleu :)

    Bleu Oleander: yw!

    Bleu Oleander: bye all

    Wol Euler: hello yaku, qt

    Qt Core: hi wol, sorry was distracted buying books at 65% discount ;-)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Wol Euler: nice idea. go for it.

    Qt Core: just done ;-)

    Wol Euler: but I hope you also support your local physical bookstore?


    Qt Core: yes, i search books online my mother use the phone at our faithful local store

    Wol Euler: good :(

    Wol Euler: :)

    Qt Core: i bought most of my books (even school books) there in the last 30 years

    Qt Core: ouch, feeling old now

    Wol Euler chuckles


    DST revolt: go Wol!!

    Qt Core: more then a dst revolt we are having double sessions these days or so it seems

    Wol Euler: not intentionally on my part, this is just the time I happen to get out of work these days.

    Wol Euler sighs. One more week, they tell me.

    Qt Core: since many weeks they tell that ? ;-) jk

    Wol Euler: true though. We should have been finished nearly two weeks ago by the original plan

    Wol Euler: but that need not stop us having a DST revolt too!

    Wol Euler: "what do we want?" "COMMON SENSE!"

    Wol Euler: "when do we want it?" "TWICE A YEAR WOULD BE NICE"

    Qt Core: ;-) common sense twice a year ? has the world enough of that ?

    Wol Euler: well, it would be a stretch, I admit

    Qt Core: even some typing skill would not be bad


    Wol Euler smiles and stretches

    Wol Euler: I think I will move on, my dears.

    Wol Euler: take care, be happy

    Qt Core: ok, thinking about sleeping ;-)

    Qt Core: have fun

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