2010.03.21 13:00 - Reincarnation and a lot more

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Liza Deischer. The comments are by Liza Deischer.

    It was a long night (european time :-)), people dropping in long after 'closing time'. And a lot of them were new to me, being there for the first or second time. And a night it was! Over three hours of discussion, and good discussions too. Which makes it harder to shorten this meeting a bit to make it more readable. So I tried to interweave my comments in a way that I hope you will find what you are looking for, reincarnation, dreams, reality, truth and God being the most important subjects.

    We start off with a meeting between me and Coder, who happens to be here for the second time

    Liza Deischer: hi Coder

    Coder Criss: hi liza :)

    Liza Deischer: I haven't seen you before

    Liza Deischer: are you here for the first time?

    Coder Criss: no second time, i was here yesterday for the first

    Liza Deischer: okay so you know that we are recording this

    Coder Criss: yes :)

    Liza Deischer: okay

    Liza Deischer: welcome :-)

    Coder Criss: thanks :)

    Liza Deischer: how was your first time?

    Coder Criss: Was nice to see :)

    Coder Criss: Not really what i expected yet

    Coder Criss: but as i understand the group has been for along time

    Liza Deischer: 2 years I believe

    Coder Criss: yeah so i heard

    Coder Criss: so as a green face will take some time to blend in :P

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    I'm curious how he perceived his first session and we talk a bit about chitchatting and more serious discussions

    Liza Deischer: what was it you expected?

    Coder Criss: ah, not sure really, more hope for deep conversations

    Coder Criss: but this is not easy with sessions 4 times a day

    Coder Criss: i'm not really fond of casual talk

    Coder Criss: or.. chit chat i think its called?

    Coder Criss: lol

    Liza Deischer: well it depends on the session

    Coder Criss: i totally understand that

    Liza Deischer: there are really great sessions

    Liza Deischer: and it can be chitchatting all the way

    Coder Criss: hehehe

    Liza Deischer: I'm more of the serious type, but sometimes people just want to make fun

    Liza Deischer: especially this hour 13.00 pm slt is sometimes more chitchatting

    Liza Deischer: I think it has got something to do with the europeans, coming back from their work

    Coder Criss: hehehe

    Liza Deischer: being tired and just want to relax

    Coder Criss: i'm european too :)

    Liza Deischer: ah, then for you it is also late

    Coder Criss: yes, its 21:00

    Coder Criss: not really late

    Coder Criss: You're from the usa?

    Liza Deischer: no, but for americans it is still in the afternoon

    Liza Deischer: no, Holland

    Coder Criss: oh lol

    Then it appears that we are sharing the same language

    Coder Criss: me too :)

    Liza Deischer: echt waar

    Coder Criss: ja :)

    Liza Deischer: niet veel nederlanders hier

    Coder Criss: nee?

    Liza Deischer: de oprichter Pema is/was nederlander

    Liza Deischer: en nog een paar

    Coder Criss: oh leuk


    Liza Deischer: before I need to translate everything, maybe it is better we switch back to english :-)

    Coder Criss: ah yes

    I try to find out if there is something that he wants to talk about

    Liza Deischer: is there a topic you would like to talk about?

    Coder Criss: hmm, not really thought about that

    Coder Criss: must say, SL is my work, so its a welcome point this to stop and have a break

    Liza Deischer: ah

    Liza Deischer: but what attracts you to come here

    Liza Deischer: I mean, you could also go dancing in a bar

    Coder Criss: yeah, lol

    Coder Criss: but no, I'm more serious too

    Coder Criss: and in the four years I've been in SL, never seen a real serious group tbh

    Coder Criss: so, what attracts me, is the hope for some serious conversations... well not too heavy, but without the usual sillythings you see in SL

    Liza Deischer: :-)


    Liza Deischer: what did they tell you about the 90 sec

    Coder Criss: hmmm, nothing in particular

    Coder Criss: just to be silent

    Liza Deischer: you have something in particular with spirituality?

    Coder Criss: i studied most religions, self study

    Coder Criss: from christianity to shintoism

    Coder Criss: i think spirituality is directly connected to religion

    Coder Criss: right?

    Liza Deischer: in principal yes

    Coder Criss: anyway, to answer your question, i think yes

    Liza Deischer: but spirituality has become a different word

    Coder Criss: it's recognizing the spirit in ones self, or how to deal with it?

    Coder Criss: which is a life-long road

    Coder Criss: in all what i studied, buddhism is closest to where my beliefs lie

    Coder Criss: but also parts from every other

    Liza Deischer: this group has an eastern/ buddhist flavor

    Liza Deischer: but there are also christians connected to this group

    Liza Deischer: and a moslima

    Liza Deischer: what is it that attracks you in those ideas

    Coder Criss: it's purely the wisdom for me

    Coder Criss: so many thing you contemplate about during life, with ups and downs, then read it back in what you already thought about

    Coder Criss: so for me purely a recognition, a truth in the old wisdom

    Liza Deischer: is there a 'concept' that appeals to you the most?

    Coder Criss: phew, hard to say

    Liza Deischer: I know :-)

    Liza Deischer: I just try to find out what it is we could talk about a little more

    Then reincarnation pops up

    Coder Criss: if i must choose i think the concept of reincarnation

    Coder Criss: you're belief is also in that direction?

    Liza Deischer: I'm a buddhist

    Coder Criss: ah, so yes

    Liza Deischer: so I accept reincarnation for now

    Liza Deischer: because i don't know what it is all about

    Liza Deischer: but for now it doesn't contradict with my ideas on the contrary

    Coder Criss: you read the tibetan book of death?

    Liza Deischer: no, I didn't

    Liza Deischer: but I get my own schooling in the process of dying and bardo (there are actually more bardo's, but normally it refers to the period between death and birth)

    Liza Deischer: I expect it will be in the line of the Tibetan book of death

    Coder Criss: yes

    Coder Criss: the truth understanding of the bardo you will get with that book

    Liza Deischer: because I am a Tibetan buddhist

    Liza Deischer: without being a Tibetan :-)

    Coder Criss: :)

    Liza Deischer: I know more about the death process then about bardo I need to say

    Liza Deischer: but to buddhists the death process is very important

    Liza Deischer: more important actually then the bardo

    Coder Criss: All in all i think that the real 'truth", if you may call it that way, is just beyond human comprehension

    Liza Deischer: I don't know, my human comprehension yes

    Liza Deischer: but i don't now what the Dalai Lama knows for instance

    Coder Criss: yes, difficult to say

    Liza Deischer: the whole concept of Buddhism is that it is part of the human comprehension

    Liza Deischer: but that we are not aware of it


    Coder Criss: hi mick :)

    Liza Deischer: hi mick

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Guys



    Liza Deischer: @ mick: we are in some kind of eastern/ buddhist conversation

    Mickorod Renard: I am not quite sure what you are discussing..:)

    Liza Deischer: starting with the concept of reincarnation

    Mickorod Renard: great

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,its interesting subject

    Mickorod Renard: I am a bit of a mix when it comes to reincarnation

    Coder Criss: There's many things in my life that are unexplainable, however reincarnation would explain it

    Liza Deischer: yes, that is why I accept the concept for now

    Coder Criss: for instance a strong bond with japan, ever since i remember

    Mickorod Renard: I don't have an educated or indoctrinated view

    Mickorod Renard: but instinctively feel that I am here in this life to learn something

    Liza Deischer: the fact that we are sitting here, talking about these kind of things, reading about it, are all signs for me of reincarnation

    Mickorod Renard: like for eg,,compassion

    Coder Criss: exactly that hunger for certain knowledge, and instinct feelings

    Coder Criss: or meeting someone who is like a deja vu moment

    Liza Deischer: but to you that could be limited to this life?

    Mickorod Renard: well,,i feel that I have a task,,and whatever the outcome its beyond my choice ,,my only choice is whether I try to understand satisfactorily

    Liza Deischer: or having a strong feeling with someone from the first moment you see somebody

    Coder Criss: yes, that is what i meant

    Coder Criss: doesn't matter male/female or the looks, you have this strong feeling


    Mickorod Renard: Hi Blue

    Coder Criss: hi bleu :)

    Bleu Oleander: hi!

    Liza Deischer: hi bleu

    Liza Deischer: and outcome could also be reincarnation or something completely different

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats what i leave to whatever,,the outcome,,I can only try

    Liza Deischer: bleu, we are talking about reincarnation

    Coder Criss: hi arch :)

    Archmage Atlantis: Hi all

    Bleu Oleander: thanks :)

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Arch

    Liza Deischer: hi arch


    Liza Deischer: Arch, we are talking about reincarnation

    Archmage Atlantis: Odd subject, Liza

    Archmage Atlantis: One that was in my mind before I came here

    Coder Criss: :)

    Liza Deischer: hmmmm :-)

    We move on and start to ask ourselves the significance of reincarnation: is it important to know whether reincarnation really exists

    Liza Deischer: you can ask yourself if it is really important to know if reincarnation really exists or not

    Mickorod Renard: after all,,we are not quite sure what spirit is or what becomes of our consciousness after death as we perceive it

    Mickorod Renard: I dont think it matters whether we believe in reincarnation or not

    Mickorod Renard: dealing with the now is what is important

    Coder Criss: It doesnt matter no, but it could help you, wether with understanding some things, or dealing with difficult situations

    Liza Deischer: true, but it can give you a certain perspective

    Archmage Atlantis: This is what I think.....it may exist.....it is not important......what we do here and now is important as it is all we see

    Mickorod Renard: maybe having some idea would help put you on a path,,but then afterwards,,the path is the only important thing

    Liza Deischer: well, the now is the starting point, that's for sure

    Liza Deischer: eh... I think......

    Mickorod Renard: there is only now

    Archmage Atlantis: The now may be at some point on the path

    Coder Criss: hehehe, that is true, but everyone thinks about yesterday and tomorrow

    Liza Deischer: yes but has the now a perspective, if that is so, then the concept of reincarnation can be important

    Mickorod Renard: the risk is,,that believing in the future,,as in reincarnation etc,,can lead us to complacency

    Liza Deischer: yes Coder, I'm afraid I know that too well :-)

    Coder Criss: =)

    Liza Deischer: true Mick

    Mickorod Renard: every day should be like your last day,,within reason

    Coder Criss: it's a balance, like most things

    Liza Deischer: it is a risk, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is not important to be aware of reincarnation (if you believe it exits)

    Liza Deischer: of being aware of this life


    Bleu Oleander: if one believes in reincarnation isn't one just taking something on faith that we have no evidence for?

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello

    Bleu Oleander: hi Steve

    Coder Criss: hello steven

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Steve

    Liza Deischer: hi Steve

    Mickorod Renard: I am unsure we can ever know in this life whether it exists or that heaven exists or whatever,,but,,,life is better lived in a wholesome way anyway,,and being astute enough to work within the parameters of certain beliefs is a useful guide

    Liza Deischer: I think the perception of the here and now is different if you believe in reincarnation or that you believe this is your only life

    Coder Criss: for me it's a belief, not faith

    Liza Deischer: to me it is something that I work with until I find something better :-)

    Liza Deischer: or find out the truth

    Coder Criss: I think you never will find the truth in these matters

    Coder Criss: perhaps a personal truth, which is ok of course

    Liza Deischer: For now I accept the fact that there are ones who know

    Liza Deischer: oops crash (Mick's p.c. seems to get overheated)

    Liza Deischer: that is where the Buddhist system is based upon

    Coder Criss: yes, the enlightenment

    Liza Deischer: at least the Tibetan one

    Coder Criss: but that speaks of knowing just before or when you die

    Bleu Oleander: traditional Buddhist thought stands or falls on the belief in rebirth

    Liza Deischer: true

    Coder Criss: yes

    Liza Deischer: until you get enlightened :-)

    Bleu Oleander: if no rebirth, why would one try to liberate oneself from the cycle of birth and death?

    Liza Deischer: but the Buddhist thought also stands with not taking anything for granted and examining everything

    Coder Criss: wb mick

    Liza Deischer: wb mick

    Mickorod Renard: hi,,sorry

    Still moving on, Bleu introducing the question of dualism between mind and body as part of the reincarnation process

    Bleu Oleander: but for rebirth to be possible something must survive death

    Liza Deischer: in the end there is no concept, so what does that mean for reincarnation, being a concept itself

    Bleu Oleander: this leads to a body-mind dualism

    Coder Criss: separation

    Bleu Oleander: and the question of how can such an immaterial mind ever connect with a material body?

    Coder Criss: body mind separation you mean

    Liza Deischer: yes, I agree

    Bleu Oleander: I can not accept that my experience is divided into two spheres, one material and the other mental

    Liza Deischer: but you can also ask yourself what this body is

    Coder Criss: this is what i meant earlier that those things are beyond human comprehension, not everything can be explained with logic or science

    Coder Criss: einstein for instance knew this

    Liza Deischer: depends on how you look at the body

    Mickorod Renard: I think that is right Coder

    Liza Deischer: how you look at everything that is around us

    Coder Criss: hi susi :)

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ all

    Liza Deischer: Hi Susi

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Susi

    Bleu Oleander: hi Susi

    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, thank you all

    Coder Criss: goodbye steven

    Mickorod Renard: bye steve

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ steve

    Bleu Oleander: belief in the existence of a non-physical mental agent, is the Buddhist equivalent of belief in a transcendent god.

    Coder Criss: I am coder rl :P strong believer in science etc.. but i do know that in these kinds of matters you just have to let go trying to explain or search a logical answer

    Mickorod Renard: I think its fun to explore,,but one mustn't get lost from the path that is possible

    Susi Alcott: may I try to confirm if I understand your words Bleu...that you say buddhists to believe in god ?

    Liza Deischer: Hmmm, to me it is not the same, emptiness in buddhism (because that is what we are talking about) and a transcendent God

    Bleu Oleander: no, Susi, that's not what I meant ...

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Coder Criss: Maybe you meant that both are beliefs and cannot be proven


    Susi Alcott: imo buddhims points to not-to-believe, but to know and understand

    Bleu Oleander: I merely meant that belief in mind-body dualism, where some entity lives on after death is equivalent of other religions belief in afterlife

    Bleu Oleander: can anyone know about life other than this one?

    Susi Alcott: sure

    Liza Deischer: in bardo (the time between death and rebirth) there is a body, different then this one of course

    Susi Alcott: specially when remember

    Mickorod Renard: I think there must be some dualism in this realm if only in accepting to restrictive nature of body as opposed to the liberty of thought

    Liza Deischer: That is what people are telling me

    Bleu Oleander: how would they know

    Bleu Oleander: aren't they asking one to believe on faith?

    Susi Alcott: the same way than all particles of the truth; one don't have any questions left

    Liza Deischer: it is the line that has been passed on in Buddhism, from Buddha to pupil, to pupil, to pupil and so on

    Liza Deischer: not just learning from books, but learning to know

    Coder Criss: hmmm, i'm hanging in the middle here

    Liza Deischer: it is the knowing and understanding that Susi talks about

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    More dualism between logic and 'belief'

    Coder Criss: Personally I have "truths" for myself which would explain reincarnation, but my logical sense tell me that this is not proof, which leads to saying that it is a belief, although a very strong one

    Bleu Oleander: beliefs are important to me if they heighten my sense of being fully alive in and responsive to this world

    Coder Criss: so ultimately, it does not matter how you call it, i think

    Liza Deischer: well, i replaced that by giving my teacher the benefit of the doubt until I know and understand myself

    Susi Alcott: would you mind to tell ab things you say to be truths for yourself ?

    Coder Criss: no i don't mind

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Coder Criss: i said before you came, that i have a strong bond with japan, ever i can remember

    Coder Criss: i talk in my sleep a strange language

    Coder Criss: i have dreams that reoccur throughout my life, over and over again

    Coder Criss: all pointing to former lives in my opinion

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Coder Criss: does that sounds strange?

    Susi Alcott: not at all

    Susi Alcott: to me that's obvious and true

    Mickorod Renard: I have similar experiences and I know several others too

    Susi Alcott: so I'de be curious why you feel doubts

    Coder Criss: my doubts are, i think, because my life is all about logic

    Coder Criss: i am programmer and analyst

    Mickorod Renard: thats interesting Coder

    Susi Alcott: and what is not logic with these experiences ?

    Coder Criss: so that leaves my mind trying to make logic of everything

    Bleu Oleander: (thank you all for an interesting conversation .... unfortunately I have a rl commitment ... bye for now :) )

    Coder Criss: bye bleu :)

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Bleu

    Liza Deischer: bye bleu

    Mickorod Renard: bye blue


    Mickorod Renard: I may share some similarities,,i also need answers for things that seem unexplained

    Coder Criss: :)

    Mickorod Renard: hiyaaaa,woll

    Liza Deischer: hi Wol

    Wol Euler: hello mick, liza, coder

    Mickorod Renard: how u doin?

    Susi Alcott: Hello Wol

    Wol Euler: and hello susi!

    Wol Euler: I'm pretty well, thanks, and you?

    Coder Criss: hi wol :)

    Mickorod Renard: fine thanks,,glad to be back

    Coder Criss: so there is my dualism, or internal opposition, not sure how to call it, lol

    Liza Deischer: we are talking about reincarnation Wol

    Liza Deischer: mind-body dualism and logic or beliefs?

    Wol Euler: ty


    Susi start asking questions about what logic is all about

    Susi Alcott: so do you mean that your dualism is the reason that you have doubts ?

    Coder Criss: well, yes, like i said, logic on one side, but also strong beliefs and experiences that points to the other side

    Coder Criss: but as said earlier, i found my way to let go and just accept

    Liza Deischer: it is strange that we experience those things as opposites

    Coder Criss: hi anaise :)

    Wol Euler: hello anaise

    Anaise Vaughan: \o

    Liza Deischer: hi Anaise

    Anaise Vaughan: hi all :)

    Wol Euler: wow, born in november 2005!

    Wol Euler bows deeply

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Anaise

    Anaise Vaughan: hi Susi :)

    Wol Euler: Anaise, have you been here before?

    Anaise Vaughan: yes yesterday

    Liza Deischer: wol I'm already in Im

    Wol Euler: ok

    Anaise Vaughan: i am new to this group, sorry for being late, rl stuff :)

    Susi Alcott: meaning that I don't understand what you take to be not logical within those experiences

    Susi Alcott: cuz I see the clear logic 'there'

    Coder Criss: ah, well, it is not explainable in the 'normal' sense

    Mickorod Renard: I find that because some things are un provable,,yet weird,,and that I have a mind that needs answers,,having a belief system is a means to stay sane

    Coder Criss: exactly mick

    Susi Alcott: ah ok; got it...yet...to me that is normal sense...


    A believe system in order to stay sane

    Mickorod Renard: staying sane is a luxury that free's the mind of clutter

    Mickorod Renard: belief is like having a huge cupboard under the stairs for storing all the weird things that none has a plausible answer for

    Wol Euler: :)

    Mickorod Renard: :)

    Coder Criss: most important is that we find a peace of mind in it

    Susi Alcott: or one has just not met yet the one who would have such answers

    Liza Deischer: right :-) (I think I like this guy!)

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I wouldn't suggest you forget whats under the stairs

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Alternative ideas for reincarnation, working out different feelings of time in live, dreams and alternative realms

    Coder Criss: did you have similar experiences mick, that also would explain reincarnation?

    Mickorod Renard: not really,,maybe sim experiences,,but I leave reincarnation open

    Mickorod Renard: I also play with other options

    Susi Alcott: what kind of if I may ask

    Susi Alcott: (seems to be curious today)

    Liza Deischer: (you're welcome to it Susi)

    Susi Alcott: (ty Liza)

    Mickorod Renard: some universal connected intelligence for eg

    Coder Criss: perhaps multiple dimensions

    Mickorod Renard: even connectednes to alternative realms during dream states

    Coder Criss: lol

    Mickorod Renard: yes Coder

    Coder Criss: it's what crossed my mind also

    Coder Criss: time is relative, so in theory you could live a whole other life in dream state

    Susi Alcott: which one would then be the dream ?

    Coder Criss: good question

    Mickorod Renard: its all interesting stuff,,have you been to the dream workshop Coder?

    Coder Criss: no

    Mickorod Renard: Tuesdays around this time

    Mickorod Renard: perhaps I can find some card

    Coder Criss: thanks :)

    Mickorod Renard: :)

    Wol Euler remembers a short story by JL Borges about a man sentenced to death, who lives a year during the fraction of a second it takes him to be executed.

    Coder Criss: must say haven't read anything about that

    Coder Criss: just was one of the thing that crossed my mind trying to explain reoccurring dreams

    Liza Deischer: to me bardo, live and dreams are all embodied

    Mickorod Renard: I may have similar views to many others here too,,but I don't always understand all the buddhist terminology

    Susi Alcott: so; do you take that within your experiences there would be the time of presence to you this incarnation ?

    Susi Alcott: as I felt the 'history' within your experience

    Coder Criss: for me susi?

    Susi Alcott: yes

    Susi Alcott: as I kind of shared your experiences

    Coder Criss: most point to the past with one exception

    Susi Alcott: yes ?


    Wol Euler: hello yaku

    Susi Alcott: Hello Yak

    Liza Deischer: hey Yaku

    Coder Criss: hi yaku :)

    Mickorod Renard: hi Yaku

    Liza Deischer: wb anaise

    Anaise Vaughan: thank you, sorry modem issues :)

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone


    Different kind of 'times' worked out in a dream that seems to be about the future

    Coder Criss: I have one dream that keeps coming back that seems to be in the future

    Susi Alcott: would you mind to share that ?

    Coder Criss: i dont mind

    Mickorod Renard: Coder,,have you had some dreams that are unusual and also occur at a future time in rl?

    Coder Criss: it is in a setting of high tall building, seemingly on platforms, where i am with a girl, chased by... i dont know, i cant see, and run into a huge tunneling system (giger-ish), and get to what seems to be a modern train... and there it stops

    Coder Criss: it's incredibly lively and i have this since i was a kid

    Coder Criss: keeps coming back

    Wol Euler: wow

    Coder Criss: so at some point you start to wonder why is that

    Coder Criss: where does it come from

    Mickorod Renard: the dream workshop may well find some explanation for it

    Liza Deischer: what is the feeling coming with this dream?

    Coder Criss: good question

    Coder Criss: no fear though

    Wol Euler: ((brb, kitchen noises))

    Liza Deischer: is it familiar is some way?

    Coder Criss: hmmm, not with this world, lol

    Coder Criss: but the dreams are real

    Liza Deischer: I mean, does it give you a familiar feeling

    Mickorod Renard: I was surprised how many train dreams I had that were sex oriented

    Liza Deischer: :-)


    We try to close in on the dream, trying to make sense out of it, leaving the discussion of reincarnation for what it is

    Susi Alcott: has probs with this (giger-ish), but is it relevant ?

    Coder Criss: yes, in the dream the feeling is that everything is familiar

    Mickorod Renard: usually a tunnel was involved too

    Coder Criss: not relevant, just trying to describe

    Susi Alcott: good to remember that each dream is unic; not much reasons to connect similar dreams I mean

    Coder Criss: could have been steampunk-ish also, its hard to describe, although i could paint it down from memory

    Mickorod Renard: cool


    Yakuzza Lethecus was only looking checking for something and sneaks to his bed, sleep well everyone!

    Anaise Vaughan: sweet dreams Yakuzza

    Mickorod Renard: bye Yaku

    Liza Deischer: no, but it could well be very present

    Liza Deischer: I mean in the hear and now

    Coder Criss: no, as it is all in the air, on platforms

    Coder Criss: difficult to explain

    Susi Alcott: that describing can be also very relevant

    Liza Deischer: well, hat is present in your life right now, or that was also there when you dreamt it as a kid?

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I have had ships docking at ports that were also sex oriented

    Susi Alcott: that dream anyway has urgent message cuz you've seen it often

    Coder Criss: the dreams that reoccur never change

    Susi Alcott: ah yes; has it been exactly the same dream each time ?

    Coder Criss: yes, but not often though, and i have 4 of those

    Coder Criss: but as far back as i can remember

    Coder Criss: normally i don't look at dreams trying to give it a meaning

    Coder Criss: i think most is just a twist of the mind, trying to cope with all info of the day

    Susi Alcott: each one which we remember, do have the message

    Susi Alcott: such dream is always like the letter to our human mind; unopened envelope

    Mickorod Renard: yes, I think many I have have some message that can be understood with a little looking at

    Liza Deischer: if it is coming back in the same way, then it is about more then today

    Susi Alcott: so; if I understood you got into the train ?

    Coder Criss: no, ends always at the station

    Coder Criss: nothing happens really

    Liza Deischer: why does it end do you think?

    Coder Criss: no idea

    Susi Alcott: cuz the main message is that

    Coder Criss: like i said, noting happens, it's just the feeling of being chased

    Coder Criss: well not the feeling, i know for sure

    Liza Deischer: yes and not getting in the train

    Liza Deischer: getting stuck somewhere

    Coder Criss: nope

    Coder Criss: it's just a short memory to me

    Coder Criss: or movie, however you call it

    Coder Criss: lol

    Liza Deischer: yes but you are being chased


    Liza Deischer: so you get out the way

    Liza Deischer: get to a station

    Mickorod Renard: brb

    Liza Deischer: through a tunnel

    Liza Deischer: and then it stops

    Coder Criss: yes

    Liza Deischer: seeing a train

    Liza Deischer: so chased - train

    Susi Alcott: do you ?

    Susi Alcott: see the train I mean

    Coder Criss: yes, i see the train

    Coder Criss: it's waiting with doors open

    Susi Alcott: ty

    Susi Alcott: that is the call yes

    Liza Deischer: does the dream gives you the feeling you need to step on the train

    Anaise Vaughan: maybe you're not being chased but just running to catch the train

    Coder Criss: hmm

    Anaise Vaughan: as there is no fear

    Liza Deischer: wb wol

    Wol Euler: ty

    Coder Criss: wb :)

    Anaise Vaughan: wb

    Wol Euler: sorry about that

    Liza Deischer: np

    Susi Alcott: what chases you is your fear, and the message is to notice that you have the answer inside yourself

    Liza Deischer: I don't know :-)

    Susi Alcott: in a way that the answer is not to think, but to feel

    Liza Deischer: I think he needs to find the answer himself

    Coder Criss: personally i do not think it contains a message

    Liza Deischer: i agree susi

    Susi Alcott: in other words; you cannot study and find the answer that way

    Liza Deischer: what is it to you Coder?

    Coder Criss: it's a memory, too many details that are unexplainable, certainly because i have this as a kid, where i did not see or could imagine the things i saw

    Coder Criss: the girls clothing, the details of the station, city.. etc

    Coder Criss: very strange, lol

    Liza Deischer: it was all new to you as a kid

    Coder Criss: yes


    I try to get back to our original question, which none of us seems to remember :-)

    Liza Deischer: what is it you are wondering about?

    Coder Criss: we came to this because it's a bit in contradiction to my touch or belief with buddhism

    Susi Alcott: hm...is there something in buddhism that you take to be asking to believe ?


    Wol Euler leans over and polishes up Mick's head.

    Liza Deischer: :-) Wol

    Liza Deischer: wb mick

    Wol Euler jerks her hand back and puts on an innocent expression.

    Liza Deischer: wol woke you up I think

    Liza Deischer: (sorry Wol, gave you up :-))

    Coder Criss: you mean if i question it?

    Coder Criss: or accept it

    Susi Alcott: no; I mean that cuz I have not seen in buddhism any such request

    Susi Alcott: but you said 'belief with buddhism'….

    Coder Criss: ah, it is just a word, i know buddhism is not a belief

    Susi Alcott: ah sorry

    Coder Criss: not really sure how to say it right

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Susi Alcott: agreement with buddhism ?

    Coder Criss: that probably would be the best description, yes

    Coder Criss: but i have many agreements :)

    Coder Criss: and even more disagreements, lol

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Liza Deischer: I don't really know where we started this exactly

    Susi Alcott: does it matter ?

    Liza Deischer: it was something between logic and believes

    Liza Deischer: depends

    Liza Deischer: does it?

    Susi Alcott: imo not

    Susi Alcott: we've anyway had here good sangha

    Coder Criss: yes :)

    Liza Deischer: hmm, I would be interested, but if it is just me :-)


    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Bhan

    Liza Deischer: hi Bhang

    Bhang Tyran: namste

    Coder Criss: hi bhang :)

    Anaise Vaughan: hi Bhang

    Bhang Tyran: helloooooo

    Liza Deischer: have you been here before Bhang?

    Wol Euler: hello bhang

    Bhang Tyran: yes butit was always empsty

    Bhang Tyran: nice to see somebody

    Liza Deischer: you have never been in a discussion like we have tonight?

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Bhang

    Bhang Tyran takes a humble bow

    Coder Criss: (brb)

    Bhang Tyran: ive never been able to sk the purpose of this place hahaha

    In the meantime I get contact with Bhang through IM giving him the notecard


    Wol Euler: you're seeing it now :)

    Coder Criss: back

    Susi Alcott: wb _/!\_

    Coder Criss: ty :)

    Susi Alcott: you can also get more info clicking that info ball

    Bhang Tyran: hello i am bhang nice to meet you ll

    Susi Alcott: 'on the air' means that all our words are recorded, but if you want that your words are not published, you only need to tell that and the guardian in charge erases them


    Some of us are leaving, already discussing for almost two hours, while the others inform Bhang about PaB, Mick taking over, with Bhang opening a new discussion about reality

    Liza Deischer: I just informed Bhang and he has no objection to the recording

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Liza Deischer: if you don't mind

    Liza Deischer: I need to go

    Wol Euler slips quietly away. Goodnight, take care.

    Liza Deischer: have a nice evening everyone

    Mickorod Renard: nite Wol,,take care

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ wol

    Mickorod Renard: nite liza

    Anaise Vaughan: goodnight everyone...

    Coder Criss: bye liza, nice to meet you

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ to all who leave

    Liza Deischer: nice to meet all the new ones :-)

    Mickorod Renard: nite Anaise

    Bhang Tyran: bye and thanks for the warm welcome

    Coder Criss: good bye all, thanks for the good conversation :)

    Mickorod Renard: bye Coder

    Mickorod Renard: nice chat

    Coder Criss: :)

    Mickorod Renard: :)

    Mickorod Renard: what brings you here Bhang? do you have interests that you seek answers to?

    Bhang Tyran: don't we all lol

    Bhang Tyran: what do you feel about reality?

    Mickorod Renard: Bhang,,usually we have this session at 1;00 and its scheduled for an hour

    Bhang Tyran: oh so i cught the tail end?

    Mickorod Renard: so this is why some folks are leaving

    Mickorod Renard: yes

    Mickorod Renard: but you are welcome here

    Susi Alcott: hm...is there something else than reality ?

    Mickorod Renard: what is reality?

    Bhang Tyran: lol i guess it depends right?

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Susi Alcott: to me all is reality

    Bhang Tyran: i just left philo island

    Mickorod Renard: it could be just what we experience,,and yet be nothing more than thought

    Bhang Tyran: im leaning to mostly thought

    Susi Alcott: each thought also is reality

    Susi Alcott: at least to oneself

    Susi Alcott: any special experience from philo island ?

    Bhang Tyran: personal reality is the the one that matters most ?

    Bhang Tyran: no mostly upturned noses

    Bhang Tyran: not my thing

    Susi Alcott: ah; that can be otherwise too

    Susi Alcott: lol

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Susi Alcott: nice expression

    Bhang Tyran: haha

    Bhang Tyran: im really trying to grasp what I'm supposed to do with my life...

    Mickorod Renard: we spend a lot of time here discussing things like what u ask

    Bhang Tyran: but thats a question we all wrestle with so..

    Bhang Tyran: hahahaa

    Susi Alcott: ah yes; that 'otherwise' I mean to be for example when other person's reality which don't match with the other, can still be more effective…so…in such case that is what matters more

    Mickorod Renard: sometimes we spend time trying to free up our thoughts to be able to explore idea's

    Bhang Tyran: yeah like my reality and somebody elses comingle for a matter of minutes but leave traces for the rest of our lives

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_


    Moving on to love and differences

    Mickorod Renard: in the absence of proof,,all is conjecture I guess,,,but some thoughts and understandings can be more universal,,even bridging a mix of cultural backgrounds

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Bhang Tyran: yes love is love regardless of culture

    Mickorod Renard: exactly

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Bhang Tyran: i agree very strongly

    Mickorod Renard: we are often blinded by certain issues too,,and seeing through filters is also interesting

    Bhang Tyran: there is to much division amongst peoples

    Bhang Tyran: who really have common interests


    Susi Alcott: Hello Qt

    Qt Core: hi all

    Mickorod Renard: Hi QT

    Mickorod Renard: but variety can be described as the spice of life

    Susi Alcott: like french people say 'viva la difference'

    Qt Core: or the vulcan IDIC ;-)

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,the world would be very boring without differences

    Bhang Tyran: live through differences?

    Mickorod Renard: enjoy experiences

    Bhang Tyran: im sometimes called prejudice but I'm misunderstood...


    And finally, there seems to be some chatting going on

    Qt Core: is there a topic ?

    Mickorod Renard: make the most of what you have,,and don't keep wishing for what you may never get

    Bhang Tyran: i wish too keep unique lifestyles alive

    Mickorod Renard: no topic QT

    Mickorod Renard: Bhang is new here

    Mickorod Renard: we are just passing time chatting

    Qt Core: good

    Mickorod Renard: like we often do

    Bhang Tyran: i read about one of the last native tribesmen in south america being forced to accept foreign culture through candy and stuff

    Qt Core: why someone would not want our "superior" civilization

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I wonder how much we have lost of our individual creativity through having being expected to conform

    Bhang Tyran: yeah wtf theyve been fine for the last 10'000 yers or so so why would they need a snickers bar?

    Mickorod Renard: we often use this PaB session to exercise the ability to look at life from a different perspective

    Susi Alcott: for the new taste ?

    Susi Alcott: (dont personally like snickers bars)

    Qt Core: for havimg to b transferred for a dentist.... while we steal their land and resources ?

    Bhang Tyran: hahaha

    Susi Alcott: ah

    Susi Alcott: that's why there's not any 'outside force' been landed into Finland so well

    Bhang Tyran: well if experience is relative they have their treats thats the equl to our snickers right?

    Mickorod Renard: didnt they send us tobacco and potatoes?

    Susi Alcott: cuz here's nothing to steel...so...no interests for anybody to work for their culture to 'enter'...

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Ara

    arabella Ella: Hiya

    Qt Core: hi ara

    Bhang Tyran: namaste

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ arabella

    Qt Core: no mining resources in finland or oil hidden somewhere, Susi ?

    Susi Alcott: no

    Susi Alcott: not worthy to try to steel

    Bhang Tyran: but thats how we found them an oil survey

    Susi Alcott: specially from stubbern nation


    Qt Core: looking at what they are doing in iceland you have a resource, cold, i've read about some datacenters being built in iceland so they could be cooled by naturally cold water/air

    Bhang Tyran: it only makes sense till the poles shift hahaha

    Mickorod Renard: they have volcanic hot too

    Qt Core: yes, that is for the power

    arabella Ella: will the poles shift ... scuse my ignorance?

    Susi Alcott: all the time

    arabella Ella: ah

    Susi Alcott: very slowly yes, but all the time

    Qt Core: but those are the magnetic one and we are speaking in tens of thousand years cycles

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Bhang Tyran: 2012 any one?

    Qt Core: absolutly not (for me)

    Mickorod Renard: nor me

    Bhang Tyran: hahaha

    Susi Alcott: same here

    arabella Ella: ??

    Mickorod Renard: and if its the ned,,so be it

    Mickorod Renard: end

    Qt Core: ar at least luckely after i'll go (i hope) to see an eclipse in november 2012 ;-)

    arabella Ella: you will?

    Bhang Tyran: i dont think its any kind of end

    arabella Ella: where to this time Qt?

    Qt Core: i'll try

    Susi Alcott: well...as well we can see each day to be the end of the world of yesterday

    arabella Ella: well said Susi

    Qt Core: northern australia ( but it will probably rain there) or northern new zealand


    Back to the 'truth'

    Susi Alcott: may I tell a story ?

    arabella Ella: cool ... amazing

    Mickorod Renard: yes please

    Bhang Tyran: every moment is the end of some kind

    arabella Ella: please go ahead Susi

    arabella Ella listens

    Bhang Tyran: please i love stories

    Qt Core: sure, you even seem like a chinese/japanese fairy tale charachter (if i may say)

    Susi Alcott: as that is that when I had not yet pc and did bank things with it, I sure used to go to such bank I'm known; more easy all

    Susi Alcott: ok

    Qt Core: i thought it was Bhang

    Susi Alcott: that happened one day after that 911, that the lady who knew me well asked me to help the lady beside her

    Susi Alcott: cuz this her college was honestly afraid of the world's end to come

    Susi Alcott: so; I asked her to see how it came

    Susi Alcott: how much things changed 'between' many countries

    Susi Alcott: she 'got it' and got rid of her fear

    Susi Alcott: end of the story

    arabella Ella: interesting way to shift perspectives Susi cool

    Susi Alcott: hm...

    Susi Alcott: well...just asked her to look at the truth which was for anybody to see imo...

    Mickorod Renard: I am not sure i have ever accepted the 'truth'

    Susi Alcott: do you accept your name ?

    Mickorod Renard: or perhaps I accepted it but never believed it

    Bhang Tyran: names are just fancy grunts hahaha

    Susi Alcott: you say 'it'....do you take that some certain truth would exist that would be all ?

    Mickorod Renard: well,,there are often different stories within the big picture

    Susi Alcott: of chorse; cuz there is no one big truth telling all that is

    Bhang Tyran: ultimate truth and the biggest picture is why i came here!

    Mickorod Renard: exactly

    Bhang Tyran: any ideas on ultimate truth?

    Susi Alcott: that it don't exist

    Mickorod Renard: I think truth can be different meaning for different people

    Bhang Tyran: no ultimate truth?...

    Mickorod Renard: I think an ultimate truth must be based on something simple,,like a singularity


    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Bhang Tyran: the personal singularity?

    Bhang Tyran: my experience versus outside experiences

    Susi Alcott: I've been often asked for some of my answers, that why they come so quickly and easily and with few words

    Susi Alcott: each time my answer has been this;

    Qt Core: how far from that answer we are.... we don't even know if it exist ;-)

    Susi Alcott: 'you made clear question to which the base truth was the answer'

    Susi Alcott: to that your question Qt I'de say this way;

    Mickorod Renard: I think if we find that answer then it would be an ultimate truth

    Bhang Tyran: hahha good


    And at the brink of a new day, God sets in, for some even in tables

    Susi Alcott: the more far you feel you are to understand god, the more near you are to god

    Susi Alcott: and I indeed am in buddhism 130 % of the teaching I say to be the first;

    Susi Alcott: don't keep any other gods but yourself'

    Bhang Tyran: der monk ? which "god" do you speak any in particular?

    Qt Core: and what we will do once we got that answer ? universal peace and understanding ? and then nothing more to search for ?

    Susi Alcott: there's always something to search, and to learn even if don't search

    Susi Alcott: that is why I say that there is no ultimate truth

    Bhang Tyran: good susi good answer

    Susi Alcott: to Bhang; in this case I can name the god to be Qt :)))))

    Bhang Tyran: hahahaha

    Qt Core: !

    Bhang Tyran: are we all given the spark of the divine so that we all carry a piece of "god" ?

    arabella Ella: if you accept that we are God's creatures, then yes

    Mickorod Renard: the more answers they get to questions the more questions arrive with the answers

    Susi Alcott: not anymore when U find a particle of the truth

    Susi Alcott: I agree with Bhang, that we all are 'a piece' of 'god'

    Mickorod Renard: I sometimes wonder whether that is our purpose in life,,a huge thinking organism,,and we are here just to find answers,,and this is the nature of the universe

    Qt Core: have you ever read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov ?

    arabella Ella: no

    Bhang Tyran: but i think all religion is wrong and the holiness they preach is active in all matter

    Susi Alcott: well; we all have free will and own free thinking....so...how could there be 'one thinking organism' ?

    Mickorod Renard: for sure

    arabella Ella: it depends how you look at it Bhang

    Bhang Tyran: not just "life" but all matter

    arabella Ella: religions also have a number of good things including the propagation of values

    Qt Core: http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html (one of his best short work)

    Mickorod Renard: I mean,,us as a spieces,,maybe including other life forms,,all as one combined answering machine

    Bhang Tyran: i like using a table for reference that the atoms that make it also make me so if i carry the divine doesn't the table?

    Bhang Tyran: gas liquid solid plasma all concious in its own way all existence concious

    Susi Alcott: well,,,as much them atoms makes it's matter and your human body...is that divine ?

    Bhang Tyran: ?

    Bhang Tyran: maybe

    Bhang Tyran: i think why doesn't the table

    Bhang Tyran: maybe it doesn't need to be more than it is

    Susi Alcott: in case you give the divine value to them; then they are divine to you _/!\_

    arabella Ella: obvious answer is because the table does not possess the attribute of consciousness or thinking

    Bhang Tyran: how do we know?

    Bhang Tyran: my senses are limited

    arabella Ella: from what we learn and discover about the world and about ourselves ...

    Susi Alcott: sure the table can also have the spirit

    arabella Ella: why should it?

    arabella Ella: it has no volition

    Bhang Tyran: i cant ask the table how it feels but it might still feel

    arabella Ella: it is not self moving

    Bhang Tyran: neither is moss

    arabella Ella: can you send a table to jail?

    Susi Alcott: I felt huge much from the table from my childhood home that I got 'back'...


    Mickorod Renard: I am sure a table has life

    Susi Alcott: might I wanna be more specific that the table is the same way a body like human body is to our spirit...

    Susi Alcott: but might I not think the table to have same kind of thinking and feeling spirit

    Qt Core: so it has spirit, at most it has no way to communicate ?

    arabella Ella: give me one reason or one shred of evidence why you should?

    Bhang Tyran: only in the sense that we are made of the same stuff and its own spirit is no different then mine

    Susi Alcott: agree with Qt

    Mickorod Renard: I suspect that some of us,,not me,,find it hard to be compassionate towards a table if it cannot show feelings that may disturb our own sense of well being

    Bhang Tyran: if somebody kicks the table i feel bad for it

    Mickorod Renard: me too

    Qt Core: i wasn't stating it, just asking, i have quite some doubts about it, Susi :-)

    Susi Alcott: yet; one can feel from it's existence...that the table has more than the body of atoms

    Bhang Tyran: right susi

    arabella Ella: well you could at the least say some inanimate objects have energy of sorts or maybe aura ... but that's about it

    Qt Core: i think that we would more probably feel our memories and ideas about such table

    Bhang Tyran: aura is life force? right?

    Qt Core: but maybe i'm a bit too materialistic for that ;-)

    Mickorod Renard: so is sun light,,which is embodied in a table

    Bhang Tyran: our bodies are material as well

    arabella Ella: aura is not necessarily life force

    Bhang Tyran: its the mind that lacks the physical

    arabella Ella: aura could well be residual energy from the tree from which the table was made

    Bhang Tyran: brain doesn't equal mind

    Susi Alcott: that's such arabella, that I learned a bit from them spirits of them trees that talked with me

    Susi Alcott: that is not any obvious that the spirit would completely leave the tree always when it's cut to been used by man


    Finally, there seems to ben an end to this evening :-)

    Mickorod Renard: ok guys,,I have to get home

    Mickorod Renard: nice chatting

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Mick

    Qt Core: bye mick

    arabella Ella: i would love to continue but i must admit it is late and i am very tired and cant concentrate much at the moment

    Bhang Tyran: me aswell i would like to be back for the beginning

    Mickorod Renard: byeeeeeee

    arabella Ella: bye Mick

    Bhang Tyran: gn all namaste

    arabella Ella: must get some sleep too nite all

    Mickorod Renard: I wud like to be here at the end

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Qt Core: 'night ara

    Bhang Tyran: XD thinkin thinkin thinkin

    Qt Core: or not ;-)

    Bhang Tyran: well I'm drunk thanks for the event is there group i can sign up to?

    Susi Alcott: I do not know the answer to your question

    Bhang Tyran: hahahaha i just meant is there a group ?

    Susi Alcott: as I was invited

    Susi Alcott: the group is playasbeinghere

    Qt Core: usually one should come to a few of the sessions (you got a notecard, yes ?) and then you get invited

    Susi Alcott: oh...

    Qt Core: being there for almost a year, things changed a little

    Susi Alcott: being more than a year, but never learned how ppl get invited

    Bhang Tyran: id like to just listen it seems that some good thinkers participate here

    Qt Core: we seem to forgot details, Susi, too involved in searching the nonexistent ultimate answer


    Susi Alcott: lol

    Bhang Tyran: haha qt

    Qt Core: for that you are very welcome at the 4 daily session

    Susi Alcott: well...as I never got clear why I was invited...

    Qt Core: mainly... why not ?

    Susi Alcott: well...just was invited...didn't ask why...maybe I was not told cuz I didn't ask

    Qt Core: time to go for me, it was a pleasure Bhang

    Qt Core: 'night Susi

    Susi Alcott: might that be time for me also

    Bhang Tyran: thank you ill be aorund

    Susi Alcott: nigh Qt

    Qt Core: good Bhang

    Qt Core: Ciao!

    Bhang Tyran: me aswell bye susi

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

    Bhang Tyran: humble

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