2010.03.25 01:00 - Creativity and Dreams

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Susi, Calvino, Hokon, Tabitha, Bertram. This was a long session but/because I found the topics very interesting, especially Calvino's description of creativity from a RL meeting he had attended.

    Art and Being project and land use:  

       Zen Arado: Hi Susi :)
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Zen
        Zen Arado: how are you?
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Susi Alcott: how are you ?
        Zen Arado: not bad
        Zen Arado: I have to get up at 6.30 to do this slot!
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: I will be glad when the time changes this weekend
        Susi Alcott: is it easy for you to accustom to that time change ?
        Zen Arado: it is hard to drag myself out of bed so early but I feel ok once I get up
        Zen Arado: and it gives me more time to do things
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: Thursday is a busy day for me
        Zen Arado: I go to an art club in hte afternoon and then a mindfulness meditation meeting tonight
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: the art club is having their Spring exhibition soon
        Zen Arado: so I have to get some paintings ready
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: did you see the art projects they are doing here?
        Susi Alcott: no; only heared something of it in the meeting as they talked about it
        Zen Arado: Bleu and Storm have already made works
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: I have an idea but it will be very simple
        Susi Alcott: you'de like to share ?
        Zen Arado: I don't want to put it here
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: Moon could do something very good I am sure
        Zen Arado: you can do building too?
        Susi Alcott: well...a bit
        Zen Arado: I have built some houses but I didn't like them very much
        Zen Arado: and I kept wanting to change them
        Zen Arado: never satisfied with them
        Susi Alcott: I've builded only saunas before, but 'today' I have a project of the sepcial building with incline walls
        Susi Alcott: Moon said it to be interesting house :)
        Zen Arado: :)
        Zen Arado: yes - Moon can help you
        Zen Arado: I might move from my 1/4 sim soon
        Susi Alcott: been willing to build it all by myself; was much learning
        Susi Alcott: ah ?
        Zen Arado: I might buy some mainland and build an srt studio and gallery
        Susi Alcott: but Moon teached me that not to demand too much from myself and that was releaf
        Zen Arado: art
        Susi Alcott: aha
        Susi Alcott: how much have you thought to buy ?
        Zen Arado: Bleu has one and she is giving me ideas
        Zen Arado: don't know but I pay 9200 L$ atm
        Zen Arado: permonth
        Zen Arado: not sure how much mainland I could get for that
        Susi Alcott: would U pls tell me that in euros; I can check
        Zen Arado: don't know - I don't use euros
        Zen Arado: use Brisish sterling in N.Ireland
        Susi Alcott: ah ok
        Susi Alcott: just a min; I'll find my way
        Zen Arado: I think I have a table of Linden land somewhere so I will check later
        Susi Alcott: that would be ab 40 USD and that is the tier for LL from 8.192 sqm
        Susi Alcott: = 1/8 region
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: I found the table
        Zen Arado: that is quite a big piece of land
        Zen Arado: I wonder how many people you can have there
        Zen Arado: I can only have 5 at present place
        Susi Alcott: about that I dont know either...
        Zen Arado: well I'm sure it is more with mainland
        Susi Alcott: that's for sure
        Zen Arado: and I might not need so much land as that
        Zen Arado: I have been in my present place over a year now
        Susi Alcott: that would have ab 1500 prims
        Zen Arado: I get attached to places

    Calvino arrives and we start discussing a book we are both reading, 'The Book of Not Knowing' and reading books in general:

        Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Hello Zen!
        Zen Arado: how are you?
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_ Cal
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: Good
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: namaste
        Zen Arado: my namaste gesture isn't very good :)
        Zen Arado: still reading that book you recommended Cal
        Zen Arado: 'The Book of Not Knowing'
        Calvino Rabeni: Ah, working your way through page by page, or skipping?
        Zen Arado: no reading it properly
        Zen Arado: and even doing the exercises
        Calvino Rabeni: Ah, then, what page have you gotten to... oh, excellent :)
        Zen Arado: around 180 I think
        Zen Arado: I am reading about how the self is only a bunch of concepts
        Zen Arado: and different from true self or awareness
        Calvino Rabeni: It is an amazing book. Lately I was looking at it and it occured to me - this is an entire book about "dropping"
        Zen Arado: yes - about dropping conceptual knowledge
        Zen Arado: or being able to when you want?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Zen Arado: I like the bit at the start where to have to drop all your ideas about an object you are looking at and just see it as it is
        Zen Arado: like Husserl's Epoche?
        Zen Arado: amazing how difficult it is to do
        Calvino Rabeni: IT seems rather thorough overall
        Zen Arado: I find him a bit long winded at times but only because I have read so much about some of the ideas already
        Zen Arado: not sure if you would like that book Susi
        Calvino Rabeni: Ralston is a creative teacher - and I would say, his teaching is definitely a way of bringing the material into presence in the moment
        Susi Alcott: still no reader :)
        Zen Arado: it is about how you have to 'not know' first before you really can know something
        Calvino Rabeni: In other words, he was continually making it up anew on the spot\
        Calvino Rabeni: I studied it in the context of martial arts, not philospphy
        Susi Alcott: I can share ---if you want---one experience of try to read the whole book; meaning sure of such so called spiritual book
        Zen Arado: yes he is a very clear writer
        Zen Arado: sure Susi
        Susi Alcott: as that book I finally could read all, but with friends help
        Calvino Rabeni: This book represents perhaps the unifying thing at his school, but about 30% of the overall material
        Susi Alcott: I dont remember exactly the name of the book but it told about conversation of it's writer and Hathors
        Calvino Rabeni: At the time, the school was called - The Cheng Hsin School of Ontology and Internal Martial Arts
        Calvino Rabeni: This particular book came from a course called the Mind Course, about the nature of Mind
        Susi Alcott: ah yes; you Cal didn't know that I've 'read only Donald Duck' and 'the rest of the books' by lifting them onto my chest or letting them open and read the line or the chapter
        Calvino Rabeni: However there were other courses of an applied nature
        Calvino Rabeni: For example, there was a class called the Function Course, which is about explicitly, relationship
        Zen Arado: you have studied with him Cal?
        Calvino Rabeni: And another called the Mastery Course, which was about developing skill in any practice
        Susi Alcott: so; as this book I think is named as 'Hathors', gave advises to several practising in order to try to improve one's self
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I had what I consider to be the good fortune to be a regular at his school in the late 80's for about four years
        Calvino Rabeni: And it made a big impression
        Zen Arado: that would be great Cal
        Susi Alcott: so....I 'waded' it a while feeling guite bad of it's advises, untill I came onto the 'last practice' and got mad
        Zen Arado: got mad Susi?
        Susi Alcott: yes
        Susi Alcott: because imo it gave the most easy practice as the last one
        Zen Arado: :)
        Susi Alcott: as if I'de done that book, I'de written that as No 1 and the most easy
        Zen Arado: I read too many books
        Zen Arado: too many concepts
        Susi Alcott: as those advises pointed to 'learn' to love
        Zen Arado: I like the exercises in Ralston's book
        Calvino Rabeni: The thing that impressed me most I think, is that Ralston's teaching is 100% applied and practical - he eschewed conceptualism
        Susi Alcott: so...I just didn't throw the book to the wall, but nearly
        Zen Arado: yes and I need that kind of teaching
        Susi Alcott: and decided not to read more
        Susi Alcott: but then it happened that my 'walking library' friend came to visit me and I pourd out my bad feeling for that book....
        Susi Alcott: then he said something that made me to think
        Susi Alcott: as he said;
        Zen Arado: 'walking library' sounds like me :)
        Susi Alcott: "You dont know, but that is the most hard thing for people to do"
        Susi Alcott: well; you are spirit brothers with this my RL friend :)
        Zen Arado: but 'not knowing' can mean being open to new teaching
        Susi Alcott: so; as I felt the truth within his words, I started to study and learned
        Zen Arado: it is what you do with what you learn
        Susi Alcott: I still cannot give up of my learned, that I must not breake my knowledge and awareness focusing to some part of it which is written to a book...
        Susi Alcott: and yes; the end of the story is that to study his said, I read that book to it's end
        Zen Arado: a book is a frozen bit of knowledge really
        Susi Alcott: that sadly teached me to understand more how right he was/is
        Susi Alcott: end of the story
        Calvino Rabeni: An old saying I like - the wise man learns more from the fool, than the fool from the wise man
        Susi Alcott: lol
        Zen Arado: true Cal :)
        Susi Alcott: well; good or bad, dont know, but felt myself more as fool than wise person
        Susi Alcott: but never have I met such person, with whom I couldn't speak with, no matter how highly educated one
        Calvino Rabeni: The Book of Not Knowing takes its focus as "what is self" or rather "who am i", but the process of contemplation taught there, can be used for virtually anything
        Susi Alcott: but I've been 'flying around' since very little child and learned from people and living
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: there is another kind of knowing from awareness
        Zen Arado: not from rational thought
        Zen Arado: I am interested in that atm
        Zen Arado: it is where you get creative ideas from they say

    Calvino introduces some of the ideas he discovered from attending a RL 'creativity' group:

        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I went to a group discussing creativity yesterday, and it is on my mind too
        Zen Arado: in SL Cal?
        Susi Alcott: is this creative idea to behave not-expected ?
        Calvino Rabeni: No in RL
        Zen Arado: tell us more
        Calvino Rabeni: It was a group contemplation of "what is creativity"
        Calvino Rabeni: and done in the "world cafe" format
        Calvino Rabeni: There were small group discussions in rounds, with a series of questions
        Calvino Rabeni: and then the groups would shuffle to bring different combinations of people together
        Calvino Rabeni: with some summarization near the end
        Calvino Rabeni: but it was based on "thinking into" whatever the things the people presented - to help the others of your small group with the topic
        Calvino Rabeni: so in that was a group contemplation process
        Calvino Rabeni: And one part that interested me was deconstructing common assumptions about creativity
        Zen Arado: yes?
        Calvino Rabeni: The common assumptions are - what occurs first to people
        Calvino Rabeni: And which they usually don't think beyond very much
        Calvino Rabeni: such as, creativity is what artists do, was one idea
        Calvino Rabeni: or creativity is for problem solving at work - another common idea
        Zen Arado: Hi Hokon :)
        Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
        Calvino Rabeni: since there is a literature of teaching problem solving methods
        Susi Alcott: hi Hokon
        Calvino Rabeni: So I noticed that, and we talked about more "middle ground" creativity, and creativity not directed to either an artistic expression purpose or a problem solving purpose
        Calvino Rabeni: in other words more like creativity "itself" in daily life
        Zen Arado: yes agree they are what comes to my mind too
        Calvino Rabeni: And many wanted to think of creativity in relationship to Necessity
        Calvino Rabeni: like - a way to save youself when pressed by circumstances, but otherwise something people would not do
        Calvino Rabeni: So that questioned whether creativity is an normal aspect of standard mind, or a kind of extra-ordinary activity to perform
        Calvino Rabeni: Of course I promoted the "normal and everywhere" notion of creativity
        Zen Arado: and thinking creatively would allow better ways of dealing with things maybe
        Susi Alcott: ah...so...
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is one of the common ideas - I think, which is in the realm of necessity
        Susi Alcott: thinking that...it is to behave not expectide way...
        Calvino Rabeni: "how to deal with things"
        Zen Arado: we get stuck in mind patterns
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Zen Arado: that are logical but narrow
        Calvino Rabeni: Another common idea is that creativity has to do with "originality"
        Hokon Cazalet: i agree zen
        Calvino Rabeni: The ability to have flexible intelligence and do something outside those narrow patterns and constructs - I would say is an aspect of creativity
        Zen Arado: but what is the best way to do it in eceryday life?
        Hokon Cazalet: a friend of mine in reply to your question zen, he tends to look at everyday objects, and imagines a "story" for them
        Susi Alcott: to let things to rise from heart/mind....
        Zen Arado: Hi Rinodp
        Hokon Cazalet: mine, in*
        Calvino Rabeni: The group discussion did manage to get to that question, Zen
        Hokon Cazalet: hi rinodp
        Calvino Rabeni: After taking the time to review all the "about" kinds of ideas, it seems time to get to the "how to be with it" ideas
        Susi Alcott: Hi Rinodp
        Calvino Rabeni: Everyone has a story about that, I believe.
        Calvino Rabeni: Writers, artists, event planners, the hosts of parties, people who want some new "spice" in their relationships, or want to freshen up their studies, etc. etc.
        Calvino Rabeni: And perhaps there are some things "in common" about all of those different manifestations of being creative
        Calvino Rabeni: since what they all have together is being a human with consciousness and so on
        Calvino Rabeni: For instance, what drives people to stay in uncreative patterns?
        Zen Arado: I used to do jornal writing to try to be more creative
        Hokon Cazalet: sense of security id say calvino: it works, dont fix it
        Zen Arado: journal
        Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes it is emotional issues that are unresolved
        Susi Alcott: might that mostly be the fear which is the obstacle to not to do based on own wishes
        Calvino Rabeni: In that the subconscious mind is occupied with some personal issues
        Zen Arado: fear and want to be secure
        Zen Arado: I often wonder that myself
        Calvino Rabeni: Things like being stressed or being tired, would get in the way
        Calvino Rabeni: maybe getting plenty of sleep before a creative project can free up some intelligence
        Calvino Rabeni: some people said, meditation really helped
        Calvino Rabeni: not by doing the creativity, but by making the mind more available
        Calvino Rabeni: Some said - go for a walk, get some fresh air, breathe
        Zen Arado: or by calming down the mind?
        Calvino Rabeni: in which case it would appear they are breaking up some rigidities in mind / body
        Zen Arado: allowing the creativity to get through the usual mind noise
        Calvino Rabeni: And on the other hand, some artists use their fears and emotional intensity to feed into the creative process and give it energy
        Hokon Cazalet: yup =)
        Zen Arado: ah yes
        Susi Alcott: like Stephen King
        Calvino Rabeni: that is famous too as a driver -
        Hokon Cazalet: brb thirsty =)
        Zen Arado: they used to talk about left brain/right brain regarding this issue
        Calvino Rabeni: There are connections between creativity and a broad notion of sexuality - eros
        Calvino Rabeni: and human desires for expression and self-transcendance
        Calvino Rabeni: Another question was - can you "study" creativity - for instance, form a "creativity support group" with other people to assist with the creative process, even if you are not also working in the same medium as artist, writer, etc.
        Calvino Rabeni: I would answer that question in the affirmative
        Zen Arado: interesting Cal
        Hokon Cazalet: back (reads chat log)
        Zen Arado: support the creativity of others
        Calvino Rabeni: yes
        Susi Alcott: wb Hokon
        Hokon Cazalet: ty
        Zen Arado: creativity needs a supportive environment I think
        Hokon Cazalet: id agree zen
        Calvino Rabeni: through inspiration and emotional energy, more than advice or problem solving
        Susi Alcott: well; they say that each artist needs a muse...
        Zen Arado: it can easily be killed off by negative comments
        Calvino Rabeni: I think it can kill creativity to meet with someone who says - I can solve your problem
        Calvino Rabeni: Sure Zen, not just the negative comments, but the instrumental ones
        Calvino Rabeni: Because then the mind goes back into a mechanical mode
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: or perhaps one concerned with results
        Susi Alcott: well...builded something in SL such that I would've like to set if for sell....
        Calvino Rabeni: and in Ralston's themes perhaps, a kind of "survival"
        Zen Arado: all this is so true with painting
        Susi Alcott: but then one friend told how it should be this and that way better ...
        Calvino Rabeni: The mental and emotional energies of "expression" are at play in creativity
        Zen Arado: yes they kill your ideas Susi
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: which are a different kind of mind than rationality and problem solving
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: you know I have been thinking about this in different ways for years
        Calvino Rabeni: Another angle to look at it is - what is inspiring - what is inspiration - either in doing things creatively, or in observing someone else being creative
        Calvino Rabeni: @zen same here
        Calvino Rabeni: You know "maslow's needs hierarchy"?
        Hokon Cazalet: @zen, i have the past few months
        Zen Arado: remember vaguely
        Calvino Rabeni: Right it is a psych theory that says, activities range from survival, up through self-actualization
        Calvino Rabeni: In response to circumstances
        Calvino Rabeni: But one thing figured out by people yesterday in the discussion is that there is creativity at every one of those "levels"
        Zen Arado: self actualization was the highest level?
        Hokon Cazalet: yes zen
        Calvino Rabeni: so creativity is more like what we are, rather than what we Do
        Hokon Cazalet: id agree calvino, its part of who we are =)
        Zen Arado: being :)
        Zen Arado: an expression of what we are
        Zen Arado: but expressing involves doing
        Calvino Rabeni: There is a drive, an urgency or eros of expression toward self-transcendance
        Zen Arado: I am so trapped in 'results' thinking
        Calvino Rabeni: and I'd say it relates to "becoming" which is also the yang aspect of "being"
        Hokon Cazalet likes philosophy terms like becoming =)
        Hokon Cazalet: yes i would agree calvino
        Hokon Cazalet: i think creativity is a key aspect of our becoming
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: but then I think - becomimg what ?
        Hokon Cazalet: thats a good question zen =)
        Calvino Rabeni: It is paradoxical, but in one way we are constantly becoming, in order to approach what is called being
        Susi Alcott: more of what we know that we are
        Zen Arado: just my results orientation again :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Because everything is "impermanent"
        Hokon Cazalet: to answer that, we'd need a ontology (study of our being) of humanity
        Calvino Rabeni: Always arising is one aspect of impermanence, just as much as always disappearing
        Calvino Rabeni: Results orientation - right that makes sense as a more static perspective
        Zen Arado: I'm so conditioned to doing and trying to impress others with what I have done....
        Calvino Rabeni: Or justify self to self perhaps
        Zen Arado: has taken me years to allow myself to just paint what I like and not what pleases others
        Zen Arado: yes that too Cal
        Calvino Rabeni: It is great to have some creative process to engage in
        Susi Alcott: might that be 'in my language' just the normal need to get attention and careing....
        Zen Arado: yes Susi - makes sense
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes that's a nice way to regard it susi

    Seeking attention and conditioning:

        Zen Arado: like shaking a rattle whan babies :)
        Calvino Rabeni: And I'd also think, it is not about how to "get" because caring and attention is not an object that can be acquired
        Zen Arado: never lose the rattle
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        Susi Alcott: ah well...Zen...if I'de know that I'de have option to buy your panting, I'de ask you to paint me any item of crystal
        Calvino Rabeni: The rattle probably helps the baby keep from being "results oriented" :)
        Susi Alcott: as I truly have never seen so perfect 'painted' crystal but on as your painted
        Zen Arado: yes it please itself with the sound
        Calvino Rabeni: I knew someone who had to take the baby for a ride in the car for hours every night
        Calvino Rabeni: otherwise the baby would not rest or stop crying
        Hokon Cazalet: wow
        Calvino Rabeni: but it was contented while riding in the car
        Calvino Rabeni: and that seemed to be the only thing this desperate parent could do to get any peace
        Zen Arado: expensive pacification :)
        Calvino Rabeni: but... same idea as rocking, or the rattle
        Susi Alcott: ah...how about to take one self to ride when dont feel good ?...the 'baby' which is inside each one....
        Zen Arado: I was thinking more about how we learn to gain attention
        Calvino Rabeni: Even adults respond to the rattle - it is a great instrument for trance music
        Calvino Rabeni: :) susi yes good to know that
        Calvino Rabeni: Attention can't be gained and held - but wants to be in a relationship with someone
        Calvino Rabeni: and sometimes will settle for the rattle, but the parent is more interesting
        Zen Arado: so''how to be creative without wanting results from it?
        Zen Arado: art for art's sake as they say
        Hokon Cazalet: =)
        Hokon Cazalet: i think it involves a specific mindset, one that ignores aspects common to normal perception and thought; such as "that object is a marker, that is a pencil" um what else (imo)
        Susi Alcott: well...if you'de enjoy of painting for me for example, would that be wrong to do that for resolt that I'de get happy ?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, not just a hypothetical question Zen, one of practical importance
        Susi Alcott: (I'm very happy just knowing that you paint)
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Zen Arado: nothing wrong with some instrumentality
        Calvino Rabeni: True
        Calvino Rabeni: but not too much, not to dominate
        Calvino Rabeni: Imean, predominate
        Zen Arado: or it kills creativity
        Susi Alcott: true
        Hokon Cazalet: brb again, rl
        Zen Arado: middle way again :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Susi Alcott: 'just a crystal what rises from your heart/mind'

    The 'Muse' :

        Calvino Rabeni: another idea that came up was the practice of the Muse
        Calvino Rabeni: It might be what Susi just mentioned
        Zen Arado: yes like in poetry
        Susi Alcott: even if it would be a space ship, to which not so many mind would connect crystal
        Calvino Rabeni: The muse as a practice of mind, interstingly also the same word applies to a kind of supporting spirit one may encounter as an artist
        Zen Arado: you can't force your Muse to produce
        Calvino Rabeni: No you can't
        Calvino Rabeni: but perhaps you can be inviting, or attractive, or set the stage, or be responsive then the Muse graces you with her presence, etc.
        Susi Alcott: ah...the muse 'just exist'...and inspires the artist...
        Calvino Rabeni: I would say a part of creativity is in preparation - preparing to be able to be inspired
        Zen Arado: yes yes
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Susi Alcott: ah yes, and sure the muse is alwasy choocen by the artist
        Calvino Rabeni: You can't do that when narrow minded, grumpy,preoccupied, or emotionally "shut down"
        Calvino Rabeni: Etc.
        Zen Arado: it is giving it freedom to appear
        Calvino Rabeni: Receptivity is i think what I'm suggesting could be cultivated as an ability
        Zen Arado: that's why 'freewriting' works for me
        Zen Arado: just writing with no aim
        Susi Alcott: btw; think that 'the muse' dont even need to be any person; to work crativly for some certain idea ; that the idea can also be as the muse...
        Zen Arado: the Muse is really your inner creative self?

    Dreams and creativity, going with the flow and 'the hour of the wolf':

        Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps certain times of day work best for freewriting type things - I favor first thing in the morning - there seems to be still a connection with the underworld or whatever universal mind is part of sleep
        Susi Alcott: and different things 'awakes' it to come out
        Zen Arado: yes - first thing in the morning is usually recommended
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, in the morning,things have not yet awoken into full and determined form
        Zen Arado: and dreams linger....
        Calvino Rabeni: In other words, the rigid habits are not entirely in place and on automatic pilot
        Calvino Rabeni: Dreams linger as long as they are "able"
        Zen Arado: how about 'the hour of the wolf' ?
        Calvino Rabeni: What hour is that?
        Zen Arado: middle of the night when you wake up?
        Calvino Rabeni: RIght, a great time
        Zen Arado: I sometimes feel very bad at that time though
        Zen Arado: all my worries and fears surface
        Calvino Rabeni: And referenceing another PAB session - where people used to be awake at night during that time and interact with each other
        Calvino Rabeni: the times before electric lights, etc.
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes I've heard that also Zen
        Calvino Rabeni: Insomnia, etc.
        Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps on a related note, there are people who say meditation is hard because it "brings things up"
        Calvino Rabeni: And others experience the opposite, that it lets things settle down and brings peace
        Zen Arado: yes - or it allows them to come up because the mind is deprived of its usual distractions
        Calvino Rabeni: It could go either way, apparently, and either way is an expression of being fully human
        Calvino Rabeni: Whatever happens is the right "result"
        Calvino Rabeni: because it actually isn't result-oriented
        Zen Arado: yes we allow it to be whatever it is
        Zen Arado: relax into it
        Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps there are layers and layers of "distractions"
        Zen Arado: so many distractions nowadays
        Zen Arado: we could reverse that lojong slogan about being able to practice when distracted
        Calvino Rabeni: THe 90-second pause is an opportunity to not be distracted
        Zen Arado: we actually look for distractions
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Calvino Rabeni: And logong might agree - do what you do but do it awarely
        Calvino Rabeni: conscious distraction
        Zen Arado: and do one thing at a time mindfully
        Zen Arado: instead of all this multitasking
        Calvino Rabeni: That would be a "be wholehearted" type of slogan
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: Be committed - to this one now, leave the others
        Zen Arado: he he yes
        Calvino Rabeni: And give them full attention when their time is ripe
        Zen Arado: and stop reading 4 books at the one time :)
        Calvino Rabeni: One thing connecting this - to creativity, is the question about keeping from being dissipated
        Calvino Rabeni: either by multitasking which can dissipate attention
        Calvino Rabeni: or perhaps by putting creativity into "lesser" things
        Calvino Rabeni: Instead of marshalling the creative energy together
        Calvino Rabeni: that woudl be a different kind of distraction
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: Partly you notice the immediate effect of doing something, and its delayed effect
        Zen Arado: we have to use our energy in the best concentrated way
        Calvino Rabeni: in some cases holding off on expression may make it more powerful later
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Calvino Rabeni: But not to be seduced into being "Results Oriented" :0
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: have to keep overcoming societal conditioning
        Calvino Rabeni: Oh yes, it is legion
        Zen Arado: like swimming upstream
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes like that.
        Calvino Rabeni: Going with the flow, is sometimes to succumb to that conditioning
        Calvino Rabeni: not a good thing
        Calvino Rabeni: some flows are healthy to go with, some deadening
        Zen Arado: depends what flow they mean :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Susi Alcott: brb
        Zen Arado: someone said 'only dead fish go with the flow' :)
        Zen Arado: this has been a long and interesting discussion
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, fish are pretty smart about that kind of thing
        Calvino Rabeni: they know *everything* about flow
        Zen Arado: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: These 1AM sessions are middle of night for me
        Calvino Rabeni: sometimes the hour of the wolf
        Zen Arado: I know
        Calvino Rabeni: 3 AM is a favorite time to meditate
        Zen Arado: I told others about my nightime horrors but they had never experienced that
        Zen Arado: maybe it is only as you get older
        Calvino Rabeni: It's a natural thing, if you could "google" the internal state of masses of people you'd find many "hits" on that experience
        Zen Arado: and you see your health deteriorate and you realize you won't live forever
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I've been there
        Susi Alcott: b
        Susi Alcott: (roll the lines)
        Zen Arado: _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: Last time I recall that state of mind - it was somethng like - it is 3 am, something is wrong with my body and I don't know what it is, and I have no insurance, etc.
        Calvino Rabeni: Gaack
        Calvino Rabeni: But overall, in general, I rather like those night time states of mind
        Zen Arado: yes I suppose we haven't our usual distractions at that time either
        Calvino Rabeni: Even the "best" of experiences will be appropriated into some kind of "distraction"
        Zen Arado: sometimes a bad dream triggers the worry
        Calvino Rabeni: That is why it is good to "fast" or do "sabbath" occasionally
        Calvino Rabeni: Bad dreams can be surprising
        Calvino Rabeni: a kind of "rude" experience
        Calvino Rabeni: like - why me why now ....
        Calvino Rabeni: just when I had it all togther ... this!
        Zen Arado: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: That is how those things come
        Calvino Rabeni: and I sometimes thing this is how Death will appear also
        Zen Arado: guess we never 'have it all together'
        Calvino Rabeni: LIke some unexpected inconvenience
        Zen Arado: and have to realize that
        Susi Alcott: hm...what was my 'alert' to seek the way that I could help more people to learn to understand them nightmares, came when I learned how little people do understand them
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes they don't understand them. The dream is a message from the not-known
        Susi Alcott: that's why I worked in live radiocastings for 6 years
        Zen Arado: I always wonder how much importance to give them
        Zen Arado: you did Susi?
        Susi Alcott: the only 'purpose' I had in my mind was to help people to understand this;
        Susi Alcott: the worse nightmare, the better one deals with one's own irrelevant fears
        Zen Arado: you have to face them ?
        Calvino Rabeni: Interesting Susi
        Susi Alcott: well; the nightmare is one's own creation that it would happen, because when meets such, it's to get rid of it
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Bertram Jacobus: /ne says silently : hello everybody ...
        Susi Alcott: as how else would 'teach' us more gently that our own spirit...
        Hokon Cazalet: hellos =)
        Zen Arado: some of my dreams are so silly
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: Bert
        Susi Alcott: hello Bert
        Susi Alcott: dreams has not judment; no sillyness, no smartness...
        Bertram Jacobus: may i sit besides you hokon, so that you don´t so alone there at your spot ?
        Hokon Cazalet: hehe sure
        Bertram Jacobus: ty :-)
        Zen Arado: Hello Bert:)
        Susi Alcott: they are 'only' discussion with one's self
        Susi Alcott: (few tens of thousands people learned to love there nighmares instead of being afraid of them)
        Calvino Rabeni: The World Mind might be part of the conversation in dreams
        Zen Arado: well they make me feel so bad sometimes
        Calvino Rabeni: That would be a good result Susi
        Hokon Cazalet: i try and use my nightmares for a positive, lucid dream during them to try and calm myself, sort out my feelings/fears
        Zen Arado: yes Hokon
        Bertram Jacobus makes wishes that zen may become free from all bad feelings and dreams ...
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: I try to remember that it is only thoughts - not real
        Susi Alcott: and truly the
        Hokon Cazalet: sometimes thoughts have more meaning than reality i think =)
        Zen Arado: ty Bert :)
        Susi Alcott: 'message' from our own awareness; 'dont be afraid for this'
        Susi Alcott: that awareness we dont be aware with our human mind
        Calvino Rabeni: In a way, the presence of something in a dream, means you are now "able" to deal withit
        Bertram Jacobus: /you´re always very welcome zen, as you know i hope *smile* - and i like to add (become free) "as soon as possible, quickly" (!) ... _/!\_
        Susi Alcott: ah yes; it's not always needed to understand the meaning of the dream's sybols; one can always ask *what am I afraid of atm*
        Zen Arado: it points to a fear we have
        Calvino Rabeni: The dream is a Creative force
        Bertram Jacobus: sry for havin interrupted the silence - too unaware here ... no sound on also ...
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: Creativity at work
        Zen Arado: all of them Cal?
        Zen Arado: I have such silly drteams
        Calvino Rabeni: I'd say yes, but some are also mechanical
        Calvino Rabeni: But not purely so in either case
        Susi Alcott: even those we dont remember; but they had 'done there work'; those we wake up for or remember, has the message to seek
        Calvino Rabeni: Some few, seem to be the hinge of a new insight
        Zen Arado: I was driving a racecar last night :)
        Zen Arado: but it was electric :)
        Bertram Jacobus: lol
        Susi Alcott: how succefull you was ?
        Zen Arado: I was winning :)
        Bertram Jacobus: hope it wasn´t make you afaid also zen !? ;-)
        Susi Alcott: thinks such dream dont need any explonation :)***
        Zen Arado: I often dream of driving
        Zen Arado: but it;s beacuse I had to give riving uo a few years ago I think
        Zen Arado: give up driving I mean
        Zen Arado: fulfilling a wish maybe
        Susi Alcott: such dream tells that you have your life in your own hand; not obeying some others 'commands'
        Bertram Jacobus: i don´t remember many dreams ... and if so, they are not very meaningful in my way of lookin at them - and mostly nice ... (!) - am thankful for that, naturally ...
        Susi Alcott: or letting some other to lead
        Calvino Rabeni: Beyond fulfulling a wish, I think dreams often say - this is still important, figure out how to create it in life as it is now
        Zen Arado: hmmm you might be right Susi
        Zen Arado: that too Cal
        Zen Arado: wise interpretations
        Hokon Cazalet: i like that calvino
        Calvino Rabeni: The dream mind is not results oriented. It is not satisfied if you decode its "symbols".
        Zen Arado: old anxieties often come up in dreams
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: The symbols mean, to reconnect you to some ongoiing live process
        Calvino Rabeni: a moving thing
        Susi Alcott: one such thing I'de feel to share that is very similar thing to all of the people, what comes to dreams
        Susi Alcott: as many people think that making love dreams are 'wishes to come true in dreams'
        Zen Arado: don't get enough of those :)
        Calvino Rabeni: I mean, a symbol is not "instead of" something, but it desires to bring something into being in the present
        Calvino Rabeni: Well on one level they are fulfillment
        Susi Alcott: but that is also symbolic; if one makes love, one thinks the same way, if wants to, one would like to learn from that person, if one feels foreced to, one is attacked by that person as mentally
        Calvino Rabeni: but they may also be future facing and require some commitment
        Susi Alcott: but there's---for the reason I have never resolved to understand---an exeption
        Susi Alcott: but I know many women to suffer for that dream
        Susi Alcott: when dont know it's symbolism
        Susi Alcott: that is insest dream with own son; that dream's message is that the son has grown up to be independed man
        Zen Arado: sounds sensible interpretation Susi
        Calvino Rabeni: There are many dreams that may violate a taboo, but are quite powerful and positive in nature
        Zen Arado: i suppose there are common dreams to humanity
        Susi Alcott: yet I know women to whom the dream has automaticly made 'the distance' to notice that and let him to be the man....but for fear....untill the understanding replases the fear
        Susi Alcott: Hi Tab
        Hokon Cazalet: hey tabitha =)
        Zen Arado: Hi Tab
        Bertram Jacobus: i think about some teachings which say, our normal daily life wouldn´t be so much different to dreams, in a way ...
        Bertram Jacobus: hello tabitha ... :-)
        Calvino Rabeni: The normal daily life is a subset of the dream
        Bertram Jacobus: take a seat if you like !
        Zen Arado: yes please do Tabitha :)
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Bertram Jacobus: btw : i don´t know what those pillows are for (?) ... ;-)
        Zen Arado: can you see the cushios yet Tab?
        Tabitha Bakerly: yen
        Tabitha Bakerly: yes
        Zen Arado: they are slow rezzing for me lately I notice
        Bertram Jacobus: you simply can choose one of the brown or blue pillows here , click it right and then sit tabitha ...
        Tabitha Bakerly: ok
        Tabitha Bakerly: thanks
        Bertram Jacobus: ywv :-)
        Zen Arado: ordinary is said to be a kind of waking dream
        Zen Arado: life that is
        Bertram Jacobus: so nobody seems to know the meaning of those pillows aside - *smile* - but sry ! : did not want to distract from the "dream topic" ...
        Bertram Jacobus: yes zen, but what it´s said and what we experience ... i find it VERY important ...
        Zen Arado: it is our job to wake up from that dream
        Zen Arado: to see through it
        Zen Arado: I think
        Bertram Jacobus: when it is possible - i simply hope so ...
        Calvino Rabeni: The waking up would still be "here"
        Zen Arado: oh yes ...but knowing that so much is illusion
        Calvino Rabeni: It would give waking reality a greater openness of creativity and imagination, as in a dream
        Bertram Jacobus: (i´m no good believer or even no believer at all (!) ...
        Bertram Jacobus: do you have an example zen ?
        Susi Alcott: might you Bert also see much driving dreams; that you drive you car youself :)
        Zen Arado: just seeing concepts as concepts
        Bertram Jacobus: that would be good, then susi ? :o)
        Susi Alcott: that I cannot 'judge'
        Bertram Jacobus: i can
        Zen Arado: seeing things in a more open way than in our narrow concepts
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Bertram Jacobus: love you susi (and all, at least try to , always)
        Bertram Jacobus: as often as i can *correcting myself)
        Zen Arado: feeling the whole experience?
        Susi Alcott: can change the name to be 'bert' writing the same line _/!\_
        Zen Arado: being open to people especially instead fo freezing them in a mould we make for them?
        Bertram Jacobus: ty ... vm ...

    Questions, questions.....

        Bertram Jacobus: you tell the truth always in forms of questions zen ? ;-)
        Zen Arado: I seem to think in questions Bert :)
        Zen Arado: that's why I like philosophy I guess
        Hokon Cazalet: Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!
        Hokon Cazalet ? philosophy
        Zen Arado: it irritates people I know too :)
        Zen Arado: like poor old Socrates
        Calvino Rabeni: OK then a question then Zen :) Might I ask - in what ways could it be a good thing to be open to people?
        Bertram Jacobus: i prefere answers i like to admit - and may be therefor i like meditation and teachings about such stuff ... ;-)
        Zen Arado: we allow them to change Cal?
        Zen Arado: realize that they are not a solid self but a continuously changing organism
        Calvino Rabeni: The good questions have multiple answers don't they
        Zen Arado: allow them to grow and not holding to past faults
        Zen Arado: yes
        Susi Alcott: and allow them to 'teach' us
        Zen Arado: meditation is a kind of questioning to me
        Calvino Rabeni: That question - we're supposed to take it for granted - sure of course it is good to be open
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Bertram Jacobus: in a unfinite reality - and my impression is - we live in such - always there are multiples of all kinds, also unlimited
        Zen Arado: I have reservations about openness too
        Bertram Jacobus: meditation is (a kind of) being to me
        Zen Arado: but also inquiry Bert?
        Bertram Jacobus: can be but disappears in the end at last i´d say
        Zen Arado: seeing into your nature
        Zen Arado: yes Bert
        Susi Alcott: well; when is fully open to others, can receive sure all there is
        Calvino Rabeni: so true
        Zen Arado: too much openness too soon can cause us a lot of suffering too
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: in my experience anyway
        Susi Alcott: that still is also our own choice
        Zen Arado: Pema said that one time
        Zen Arado: we can open gradually as we are able to handle it is better
        Susi Alcott: and when ever there's the need to know; even sad truth is then better to know than not to know anything
        Hokon Cazalet: id agree
        Zen Arado: though some Buddhist teachers like Pema Chodron say we have an infinite capacity to receive other's suffering
        Susi Alcott: at least to me, to know, is very essential
        Bertram Jacobus: sry - i´ll leave - ty for a wonderful talk ! like to eat a bit and such ... may all beings be happy please (!( ...
        Zen Arado: bye Bert
        Susi Alcott: enjoy bert :)
        Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-))
        Zen Arado: hey - I have been here over 3 hours now
        Hokon Cazalet: !
        Susi Alcott: smiles
        Zen Arado: I better go:)
        Hokon Cazalet: aw
        Hokon Cazalet: byebyes
        Susi Alcott: aw
        Zen Arado: thanks for very interesting discussion to all
        Susi Alcott: enjoy your busy day _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: And I also - it really is 4:11 am here :) Thanks all for a great meeting
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Zen Arado: sure bye :)
        Hokon Cazalet: bye calvino
        Calvino Rabeni: Bye
        Susi Alcott: Good dreams Cal _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: TY
        Hokon Cazalet: .
        Hokon Cazalet: =)
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
        Hokon Cazalet: sorry for being kinda quiet the past few minutes, as i was listening in, i was fixing some stuff on a word doc i have, of all my current ideas =)
        Susi Alcott: ah please dont worry
        Hokon Cazalet: =)
        Susi Alcott: sound of silence is also good thing
        Hokon Cazalet: yup
        Hokon Cazalet: =)
        Susi Alcott: must also go now at least for a while
        Hokon Cazalet: okies
        Susi Alcott: wishing good time to you
        Hokon Cazalet: i should also, its 6:30am
        Hokon Cazalet: you too =)
        Susi Alcott: _/!\_
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