2010.03.31 19:00 - Memory is not a Photograph

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.


    stevenaia Michinaga: HELLO
    stevenaia Michinaga: didn't mean to shout
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pandora
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
    Pandora Pawpad: once
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome back
    Pandora Pawpad: ty
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Stevenaia
    Calvino Rabeni: Back to summer wardrobe I see :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, no longer a chill in the air
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I just arrived from a mad dash to get here after a meeting,
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice PaB shirt, did you make it?
    Calvino Rabeni: It was made by Bleu
    stevenaia Michinaga: a very creative and energetic soul
    Calvino Rabeni: Quite true
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you for the shirt
    stevenaia Michinaga: now all I need is a cool breeze to wear it
    Calvino Rabeni: Down by the sea you may find that
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome back Pandora
    Pandora Pawpad: ty
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Reflection , Lucinda
    Reflection Freenote: hello steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: people seem to be rezzing slowly for me tonight
    stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Reflection?
    Reflection Freenote: yes, I have, thanks
    Lucinda Lavender: helo to all,
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pandora Pawpad: Hello :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Always a pleasure, Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: for me also
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am just slowing down from my day, does anyone have a topic or thought they would like to offer?
    Calvino Rabeni: Regular or leaded? Paper or Plastic?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I prefer what can be reused or recyled rather than consumed :)
    Calvino Rabeni: One thing to do in this situation is - look in the profiles of whoever is here, and guess one that might be if interest to someone :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was actually doing jsut that, reading about "Tabula rasa" , thank you Reflection
    Calvino Rabeni: There are some "tried and true" topics also :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabula_rasa
    Calvino Rabeni: There are some kind of "where are you from?" type questions too
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance - Hi, what brings you to Play as Being ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Eliza
    Reflection Freenote: well, I don't usually find myself free during your usual hours, so was lucky tonight, so the answer is "randomness"
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steve, Everyone :))
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi ELiza]
    Reflection Freenote: hello eliza
    Pandora Pawpad: Hiii
    Pandora Pawpad: Hi Eliza :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pandora, Nice to meet you :) I think we've met before, Reflection, nice to see you again
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Eliza
    Pandora Pawpad: This is my friend Milton everbody. :))
    Pandora Pawpad: He is very special to me. :))
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Milton :)
    MIlton Zepp: Hi everyone
    Reflection Freenote: hello milton
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Milton
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Lucinda, and Hi Milton, Welcome :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Is ths your first time here?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Milton?
    Eliza Madrigal: funny that we're all sitting on the outskirts tonight :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Topic tonight?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think of Aristotle's different types of Causes. Why we are here could turn out to have some subtleties
    MIlton Zepp: Sorry was AFK
    Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristot...he_Four_Causes
    MIlton Zepp: Yes it my first time here
    stevenaia Michinaga: is it ok if we include you words in our recording?
    MIlton Zepp: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: But,a personal answer is somethng like "I found it by chance, I visited due to curiosity, andkept coming back because of the relationships that developed"
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: or I have an hour or so and this place fills this hour better than other activities might
    stevenaia Michinaga: even in silence
    Reflection Freenote: it certainly seems like a companionable place to meditate:))
    Lucinda Lavender: I read some of the past discussions at the wiki last night anI read some of the past discussions at the wiki last night and felt inspired...
    Pandora Pawpad: You all meet here daily?
    Eliza Madrigal: Four times a day actually
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Maybe not the same people...
    Pandora Pawpad: Interesting
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are 4 meetings a day, not everyone comes to every meeting
    stevenaia Michinaga: but there is usually someone here to greet all
    stevenaia Michinaga: and to post the logs of the meetings
    Pandora Pawpad: Is this just a meeting of the minds to discuss relevant topics?
    Eliza Madrigal: Lucinda, what sorts of things did you enjoy reading?
    stevenaia Michinaga: and speaking of inspiration, I always find it remarkable how conversations begining in silence often results in wonderful word
    stevenaia Michinaga: s
    Eliza Madrigal smiles @ Steve
    Lucinda Lavender: I read maybe the last week or so...discussions of power, dreaming, phenomenalogy, and play...
    MIlton Zepp: Power Dreaming?
    stevenaia Michinaga: from the void come great ideas and synergies
    Calvino Rabeni: @Pandora, the topics become relevant by being interesting and important in some way to whoever is here
    Lucinda Lavender: No power...separate from dreaming
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting. Thanks Lucinda... I may have missed the power logs
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pandora Pawpad: I see, ty
    Lucinda Lavender: Calvino spoke of kinds of power...
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the "meeting of the mids" when it happens :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and the element of surprise.. that sometimes, even based on regular attendants with favorite topics, things will take an unusual or unexpected turn
    Eliza Madrigal: there is always room for something new perhaps, though generally respectfully
    Lucinda Lavender: randomly speaking...if we were to consider something we saw today...I curious how different those things would be...
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, interesting idea Lucinda (framing the pause)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I liked that question - I visualized going the place I usually go during the day, then scanned over it to see if there was anything unusual that I saw along the familiar round - what would stand out?
    Eliza Madrigal nods, me too
    Eliza Madrigal: And? What did you find?
    Calvino Rabeni: And what it was, a huge, immense, large tree, that I'd never seen before in the neighborhood
    Eliza Madrigal: where you've lived a long while?
    Calvino Rabeni: And I actually after passing it, did a U turn to go back to look at it more
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yidam :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Yidam
    Eliza Madrigal: Guess you've not signed on since last night's session ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: But during the remembering, it seemed to do a good thing for my body
    MIlton Zepp: Hi Yidam
    Calvino Rabeni: just in terms of feeling and aliveness
    Calvino Rabeni: not a big deal really, but perhaps, an everyday tonic
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, what an interesting idea... that your noticing the tree was naturally nurturing?
    Lucinda Lavender: the bigness of the tree was enlivening?
    Calvino Rabeni: Energizing yes that is a kind of nourhshment
    stevenaia Michinaga: spring does wonderful things to trees here
    Reflection Freenote: maybe it is also, the stepping out of habit and into awareness which is refreshing?
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps you felt that?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is ancient, takes up lots of space, gives presence and dignity to its surrundings
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice, yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes true, RF, a breaking of a habit of routine seeing
    Lucinda Lavender: The browness of the bark and green of the brances?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or what is slightly different, that this can be done in retrospect
    Eliza Madrigal: To me it speaks to the abundance of nature... that we often feel lack, but scarcely notice what is resplendent in our very hands...
    Calvino Rabeni: Who hasn't at some point, felt that there was a tyranny of memory as a fixed thing?
    Reflection Freenote: indeed:))
    Calvino Rabeni: And yet - if my "seeing" wasn't full the first time, and could have been different, why not the same, for memory also?
    Reflection Freenote: it seems quite challenging to see with new eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: So some true-but-latent possibilities in memory might emerge into being
    Calvino Rabeni: Even after-the-fact seeing
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes moment to moment... even with 'old' memories
    Calvino Rabeni: Because, I used to feel like - ah, I missed it the first time, not it is too late
    Calvino Rabeni: which was a somewhat sad feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: Because who can be fully present in experience?
    Eliza Madrigal: We interpret and reform our memories anyway, as a natural course...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and why not enliven them, or let them develop and deepen with time?
    Reflection Freenote: of course, if memory is constructed, then perhaps the creative force has more power there than in "reality"
    Calvino Rabeni: Memory is not a photograph, especially one that slowly fades
    Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly... if we are filling in most of our experience...
    Yidam Nightfire: what causes us to perceive a memory
    Yidam Nightfire: ?
    Pandora Pawpad: Excuse me I hate to inerupt the flow of udder nonsense but where can a lady take a piss?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hah
    Eliza Madrigal: Cheerio
    Calvino Rabeni: Anywhere you like :)
    Reflection Freenote: perhaps, much as we have less habitual constraint which acts upon our vision here, for the same reason?
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting Reflection, you mean in SL?
    Reflection Freenote: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, funny. We have a context (thinking also about yidam's question)... and we feel free-er, perhaps, to play with it here
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Lucinda... our capacity to remember what we experience may be sorely limited... seems it is
    Reflection Freenote: it might be that actual stimulation powerfully engages our most dominant perceptual reflexes, but that the virtual stimulation of memory, or SL, leads to less dominant reflexive responses
    Calvino Rabeni: What would be a reflexive response, Reflection (and are you good at those?) :)
    Reflection Freenote: I think cal, that we are all very good at those;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe that's the concentrated aspect I often try to describe... that in SL it seems often a distillation... shot of whiskey, as it were
    Reflection Freenote: a reflexive response is a conditioned habitual response or a neurologically simple response (like a knee jerk)
    Calvino Rabeni: I see, I thought it was "reflection" in the sense of introspection about experience
    Reflection Freenote: yes, eliza, about distillate, although, I think of it as a haiku, as opposed to RL being an epic poem
    Eliza Madrigal: an interesting comparison!
    Reflection Freenote: it seems the dominance of symbolism here allows for a laser-like specificity of meaning and response
    Eliza Madrigal: a haiku seems little more than a sketch, and yet conjurs emotion beyond its means
    Reflection Freenote: less is more
    Eliza Madrigal: Today, what I noticed... thinking about ludinda's question... was a preciousness of sharing, in a session this morning... someone talking about a book's impact on their life in a way that conveyed an entire lifetime of experience
    Eliza Madrigal: I felt very awestruck... one wants to take off their shoes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I suppose that's a bit like encountering a grand tree which has been there all along?
    Eliza Madrigal: Say more Lucinda?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, this happens, in a way you "ate" the clouds
    Calvino Rabeni: A similar effect in some way to having a cup of tea
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice
    Eliza Madrigal: wb Yidam :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a basic thing - what we see affects us including the whole body energy systems (endocrines, etc.)
    Calvino Rabeni: And yet ... so many people just assume what we see is like a flat picture or a readout of "facts"
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, how we see it? to one person graphiti (sp?) may be nurturing?
    Calvino Rabeni: With no deeper impact
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi jen :)
    Calvino Rabeni: @eliza, "how" we see - is to a large degree up to us?
    Eliza Madrigal: Welcome to PlayasBeing
    Eliza Madrigal: Indeed, Calvino :))
    Jen Dix: hi just popped in for a minute. will have to come another time. thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: What we take as facts, even
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure, Jen
    Calvino Rabeni: I suppose, I'm interested more in the energetic effect, than in the "facts"
    Reflection Freenote: perhaps we can cultivate creative ways of seeing
    Yidam Nightfire: isn't energetic effect another "fact" of your perception?
    Calvino Rabeni: The facts are what we make of them
    stevenaia Michinaga: are there uncreative ways of seeing?
    Reflection Freenote: there are a great many fascinating perceptual illusions for instance
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I would say I'm the same... paying attention to what drains vs what inspires, and further down... why
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Reflection Freenote: steve, I think we have mostly habitual ways of seeing
    Calvino Rabeni: There might be a fact *about* the energetic effect, sure, but the effect can happen regardless of whether "noticed" or not
    Calvino Rabeni: One might make observations of the energetic effect, thus creating additional facts
    Calvino Rabeni: @reflection, I do believe, we can cultivate creative ways of "seeing" :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dolma :)
    Dolma Bosatsu: hi Yidam, Eliza, Reflection, Steve, Lucinda, and Calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: Reflection, might you elaborate on 'perceptual illusions'?
    Yidam Nightfire: is there a perception that is not an illusion?
    Calvino Rabeni: Illusions of perception, to me, seem like the first step to creativity - as if saying (1) see, it isn't just-as-it-seems, and then suggesting going beyond that to (2) Ok, howabout doing something interesting with it then?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Dolma
    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome
    Reflection Freenote: the best known eliza are optical illusions, whcih are fun, because vision is our most precise sense, but easily fooled by artfully contrived lines, for example
    Reflection Freenote: so we automatically perceive arrays in ways that are predetermined
    Yidam Nightfire: so your illusions is a non-valid perception?
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes.... seems we can detangle until there is little to nothing there? ... seeing that nearly everything is built up in some way... so maybe we have freedom we don't realize... as in earlier considerations of the abundance of nature...
    Reflection Freenote: correct yidam
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, then, if there aren't any "valid" perceptions, why make the distinction of "invalid" ones?
    Reflection Freenote: and I agree about all perception being illusion, but accurate illusions correlate meaningfully with some actual reality
    Calvino Rabeni: Right
    Eliza Madrigal: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful discussion... think I need to sign off though... big day tomorrow :)
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems pretty natural
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you everyone :))
    Yidam Nightfire: Thanks :)
    Reflection Freenote: so long eliza
    Calvino Rabeni: :) bye, eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal waves. Night!
    Calvino Rabeni: Isn't it existentially unpleasant, to achive the insight that some people promote, that there is no "self"?
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Sorry
    Reflection Freenote: www.michaelbach.de/ot/
    Reflection Freenote: that is an especially large collection of fun perceptual illusions
    Reflection Freenote: IDK calvino, I have found it somewhat liberating:))
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, somewhat crudely, is there more to the game of liberation than "take away the fake"?
    Reflection Freenote: that sounds pretty complete to me cal
    Calvino Rabeni: My opinion is, it clears the deck for more alive, accurate seeing
    Calvino Rabeni: but I don't see - liberation by being nothing
    Calvino Rabeni: except in the negative sense of course
    Reflection Freenote: "liberation by being nothing?"
    Calvino Rabeni: Which would make "death" seem attractive?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the "no self" theories and the "everything is illusion" philosophies
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm playing devil's advocate, pardon me :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, night all
    Calvino Rabeni: Sleep well Stevenaia
    Reflection Freenote: I think the concept is that pure being is joyous
    Reflection Freenote: yes, I think it does
    Reflection Freenote: categorization is the ultimately pragmatic illusion, but may lay at the root of suffering
    Reflection Freenote: yes, certainly that, but probably not limited to that
    Reflection Freenote: I've got to head out folks:)) Have a great evening, morning or afternoon, as the case may be:))
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the discussion, Reflection
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the buddhist work in phenomenology and psychology


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