2010.04.05 13:00 – To know and not to know, is this a question?

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: is there an event somewhere ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: eliza is online but not here
    Yakuzza Lethecus: in the cafe maybe ?
    Mickorod Renard: I am not sure
    Mickorod Renard: maybe she will turn up
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello kerstin
    Mickorod Renard: Hi kirstin
    Mickorod Renard: is she new?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend
    Mickorod Renard: I will have to leave her to you
    Yakuzza Lethecus: normalerweise reden wir englisch hier
    Yakuzza Lethecus: alles was hier im pavillion gesagt wird, wird geloggt und auf unserer website geposted
    Yakuzza Lethecus: du hast doch gesagt ,,huhu zusammen" :)
    Mickorod Renard: thanks Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, ne hier gibt es nichts zu kaufen :)
    Mickorod Renard: are you going to try another retreat this year Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes the reatreat wol is organizing in stuttgard
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stuttgart
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ne, ich bin kein builder sry
    Mickorod Renard: I would like to try that too,,I will see what turns up
    Yakuzza Lethecus: san fransisco would have been facinating
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but too expensive
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but very complementary
    Yakuzza Lethecus: machs gut kerstin
    Mickorod Renard: yes, but i am not sure I would have liked a City venue
    Yakuzza Lethecus: all the ppl i haven´t seen in malta
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: would be in the san fransisco retreat
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or nearly
    Mickorod Renard: ohh,,the one in the hills?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i haven´t been to the SF retreat last year
    Mickorod Renard: I know before,,they went to a budhist retreat centre in the hills
    Mickorod Renard: thought this one was to be in the city
    Mickorod Renard: how is work at the moment?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, it´s ok but always only for the next few weeks
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nothing certain for more then 1 month
    Mickorod Renard: ouch
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but it´s always in that way
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least for the last year
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,some jobs are like that here
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Mickorod Renard: hiyaaa
    Yakuzza Lethecus: company´s ain´t gonna order tools on the long run
    Mickorod Renard: its quiet here tonite
    Mickorod Renard: true
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, except german escorts :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least that was her only group
    Mickorod Renard: nice t shirt
    Mickorod Renard: thanks yaku
    arabella Ella: thanks Yaku
    arabella Ella: Yaku have you downloaded Viewer 2.0 for SL?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i switched over to 2.0
    arabella Ella: is it easy? is it better?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know if it´s really better but it´s not worse
    Yakuzza Lethecus: only a little relearning
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know how it might be for builders
    arabella Ella: re-learning is ... or should nott be a problem
    arabella Ella: what differences did you notice?
    arabella Ella: and why does it say it does not replace previous viewer?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the userinterface is really different
    arabella Ella: oh
    Mickorod Renard: its real strange having just three here
    arabella Ella: yes it is
    arabella Ella: but maybe there is something else on at this time? i dunno
    Mickorod Renard: yes, Yaku wondered that too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i msg eliza, so cal and eliza are online maybe it´s the workinggroup
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats posible
    Mickorod Renard: last nights session was interesting
    Yakuzza Lethecus: they aer on the beach :)
    arabella Ella: oh could be WG yes
    arabella Ella: on the beach?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: no, i guess not :)
    Mickorod Renard: I must take the scribe back now..I had let it slip during some stressful time
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh didn´t know ur a scribe
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have to admit i never read what the scribes wrote
    arabella Ella: i have read a few and they are always interesting as they are glimpses of what hgappened over a few days
    Mickorod Renard: yes, i enjoyed doing it,,but hated the run up,,thinking it was another stress I didnt need
    arabella Ella: did you want to say more about yesterday night's session Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: all the scribes do it in diferent ways
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi mick, Ara, Ya :)
    arabella Ella: Hiya Eliza!
    arabella Ella: what a lovely dress!
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :) yes its great fun
    arabella Ella: :)
    Mickorod Renard: well, I think what was discussed last night is fundamental to pab
    Eliza Madrigal: you can *feel* it swaying around
    Eliza Madrigal listens to Mick
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza, wol
    arabella Ella: Hiya Wol!
    arabella Ella listens to Mick too ...
    arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Wol
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Cal
    Mickorod Renard: sorry,,lots of im
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I think what was discussed was all about PaB
    Mickorod Renard: the grasping of what its about
    Liza Deischer: hi all
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Liza
    Mickorod Renard: sorry,,can u chat urselves a mom,,dinner has been served
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey qt :)
    Qt Core: hi all
    arabella Ella: Hiya QT
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    Liza Deischer: hi QT
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt
    Eliza Madrigal: Ara or Ya, can you give background as to what Mick was talking about? :)
    Liza Deischer: what chat would mick refer too :-)
    arabella Ella: ok moment
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi gen
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Gen
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gen! :)
    Wol Euler: hello gen, long time no see
    Qt Core: hi genesis
    Liza Deischer: hi gen
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but still, what did you just mean mick ?
    arabella Ella: Hiya Genesis
    arabella Ella: looked up what mick said but was not much
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks for trying Ara
    arabella Ella: he was refering to yesterday's 1pm session
    arabella Ella: [13:25] Mickorod Renard: well, I think what was discussed last night is fundamental to pab
    arabella Ella: it was the theme session with Pema and Maxine where we discussed TSK
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Maxine and Pema's TSK session?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    arabella Ella: including dropping knowledge
    arabella Ella: which I asked questions about
    Eliza Madrigal: I missed that session yesterday... read the first one though, really great
    arabella Ella: yes it was very understanding
    arabella Ella: sorry
    arabella Ella: interesting i meant
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: but
    arabella Ella: if it is compassion and understanding that lead to enlightenment
    arabella Ella: how can we 'drop' knowledge?
    arabella Ella: could anyone here help to 'enlighten' me please?

    Mickorod Renard: I dont think it was so much about dropping knowledge,,just no need for more on the subject to understand it,,more a case of digest what we have
    arabella Ella: i can understand dropping other attachments like material things or attachments to other people
    Liza Deischer: drop knowledge?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I wouldn't hear it that way either...
    arabella Ella: apologies seems i have bad chat lag or perhaps am about to crash ... hope not
    Liza Deischer: enlightenment as I understand is based on love and compassion
    Liza Deischer: whith is the tool
    Eliza Madrigal: I've read the book and attended the workshops, and I hear it more as opening oneself to another kind of knowledge... phrased in the book as "Great Knowledge"
    Liza Deischer: and wisdom
    Liza Deischer: so why drop knowledge?
    Liza Deischer: but maybe TSK has another way of seeing this
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I wonder about that phrase... maybe it was meant as drop reliance on ordinary ways of knowing alone...
    Liza Deischer: /lis talking to somebody who is obviously no longer here :-)
    Wol Euler: talking to the log perhaps, she'll be able to catch up
    Mickorod Renard: I think Pema mentioned the aspect of riding a bicycle,,we dont refer to the knowledge but do it naturally
    Liza Deischer: true
    Wol Euler: (anohter strong argument in favour of chat over voice, btw)
    Calvino Rabeni: Might I suggest - to look at the "stuff" that accumulates around the idea of "dropping", and then drop that :)
    Liza Deischer: yes, well, I think knowledge can be a lot of things
    Calvino Rabeni: Or even - drop "dropping" :)
    Liza Deischer: can work as attachement and can even get in the way
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember, nothing is permanent - to drop knowledge for 90 seconds will not result in a permanent condition of mind / brain
    Mickorod Renard: I know in the past I have had the idea that until I had consumed all the knowledge I wouldnt know anything,,but in reality(loosly used) knowledge is only a tool..u have to know how to use the tool
    Liza Deischer: no, right
    Wol Euler: wb ara
    Liza Deischer: wb ara
    arabella Ella: apologies, crashed, gremlins at work ... ouch
    Wol Euler: for certain values of "back"
    Calvino Rabeni: As a story, when I first learned computers, I was afraid of "crashing" the computer. Until I found out it worked just fine after a reboot.
    arabella Ella: :)
    Liza Deischer: :_)
    Calvino Rabeni: SO there's no worry about crashing "self" by dropping, or any other maneuver
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,that would have free'd u up Cal
    Liza Deischer: not in prinipal no Cal
    arabella Ella: not sure how far my previous chat got through
    Mickorod Renard: to explore more
    Qt Core: who said we can't get back from the floor what we drop ?
    Wol Euler: [13:38] arabella Ella: i can understand dropping other attachments like material things or attachments to other people
    Wol Euler: that was the last I heard, ara
    Liza Deischer: and we have been discussing on that a little
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure we can,,and this is more the case,,we can put the knowledge down for a while to free up our dexterity
    arabella Ella: not sure whether the part about dropping knowledge came through too ... when enlightenment requires both compassion and understanding?
    Mickorod Renard: yes, but understanding and knowledge are not the same
    Liza Deischer: yes it came through
    arabella Ella: ty Liza
    arabella Ella: can you understand what you dont know then?
    Liza Deischer: so we have been asking why knowledge should be dropped, then what knowledge means, and now we are talking about dropping
    Mickorod Renard: knowing doest mean u understand it
    arabella Ella: ah ok ty
    arabella Ella: IMHO knowledge and understanding are very closely linked and overlap a great deal
    Calvino Rabeni: Dropping is not about whether knowledge is valuable, or whether it is true, or whether you should remain committed to it in the long run.
    Calvino Rabeni: It is about freeing attention and intelligence in present time
    Calvino Rabeni: for a moment
    Calvino Rabeni: Mick's word was "dexterity"
    arabella Ella: but why say 'drop knowledge' if what is meant is 'free attention and intelligence'?
    Calvino Rabeni: Because of the binding nature of knowledge on attention
    Wol Euler nods.
    arabella Ella: thanks Liza!
    Mickorod Renard: nicely said CAL
    Liza Deischer: yw
    Wol Euler: I thought they meant to drop the judgement "I know what that is" rather than forcing yourself to forget facts and conections
    arabella Ella: is that always the case Calvino ... or not?
    arabella Ella: does knowledge always bind on attention?
    Calvino Rabeni: And I don't think the "knowledge" referred to is "factual knowledge" of course
    Eliza Madrigal: right, wol... it isnt about undoing all your skills and education :)
    Liza Deischer: ropping the attachement
    Liza Deischer: *dropping
    Calvino Rabeni: Knowledge informs and directs attention also, focuses it in a specific direction
    Mickorod Renard: I guess it depends what u want to do with the knowledge,,u could just be a human library,,or you could do something with it
    Calvino Rabeni: To refocus in a different direction - to see something new - might require dropping current commitments for the time being
    Liza Deischer: in the Tibetan buddhist path, knowledge is considered as essential
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember the PaB slogan - "so what else is true?"
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone, time to drop my body and if i drop the thoughts i might even sleep better :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night!
    Liza Deischer: nite Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe Yakuzza :)
    Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Night
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds workable Yaku,good night
    Qt Core: 'night yaku
    Wol Euler: bye yaku
    arabella Ella nods to Liza
    Liza Deischer: bud in a way that you keep on questioning your knowledge
    Liza Deischer: *but
    Calvino Rabeni: It might be important to some people, to know that PaB is not an "anti-intellecetual" endeavor
    Mickorod Renard: I think Knowledge is so very very important,,,but at some stage to get the most out of it ,,in PaB terms,,you have to run free,,
    Calvino Rabeni: I see that too Mick
    Liza Deischer: suddenly I see al kinds of naked people running around :-))
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaa
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, drop outfit, and then O-nigokko
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Wol Euler: re-wb ara
    arabella Ella smiles ... hiya once again!
    Liza Deischer: you have a bit of bad luck it seems ara
    arabella Ella: yes ... feel like singing the tune ... oh what a night ... la la la
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure an artist retains his knowledge when he paints,,yet during his painting what comes through is creativity and passion
    Mickorod Renard: the technique is natural

    arabella Ella: one thing before i risk crashing yet again ... i think the word 'lnowledge' is not used correctly somehow and it should be replaced by 'shifting perception' or 'shifting current ways of thinking'
    Calvino Rabeni: The PaB transcripts are open to the world - including those committed to strict worldviews, whether they be religious or rationalist - who would be reactive to the PaB ideas the group experiments with.
    Calvino Rabeni: That's worth exploring arabella
    Liza Deischer: it is technique working together with inspiration in some kind of concentration that includes both
    Eliza Madrigal: TSK is a vision of coming from completeness... rather than a place of need... need to accumulate facts, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: need to measure and compare and seem
    Qt Core: i need to go, bye all
    Wol Euler: buona sera, qt
    genesis Zhangsun: bye QT
    Mickorod Renard: bye Qt
    arabella Ella: exactly Eliza ... and there are various types of knowledge, ranging from skill to sagacity and wisdom
    Liza Deischer: bye QT
    arabella Ella: buona notte Qt
    arabella Ella: (rote learning for me is not knowledge)
    Eliza Madrigal: So in TSK, they are open ... all those knowledges ... in Great Knowledge... in a sense...
    Eliza Madrigal: of course that's just my reading so far:)
    arabella Ella: yes but isnt Great Knowledge similar to enlightenment or transcendence of what is 'too worldly or mundane'?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they are not compromised at all by the "Great" version
    Calvino Rabeni: In my view, not really
    Eliza Madrigal: worldy and mundane are included
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Eliza Madrigal: nothing is left out
    genesis Zhangsun: I must go to bed
    genesis Zhangsun: good night everyone
    Mickorod Renard: nite Gen
    Calvino Rabeni: it is not transcend as in "leave behind"
    arabella Ella: nite Gen
    Wol Euler: 'night gen, take care
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Gen :)
    arabella Ella: as in go beyond?
    Eliza Madrigal: in some sense, but even more radical than beyond...
    Eliza Madrigal: which is why I think there is so much discussion and mutual exploration about TSK :))
    arabella Ella: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I love the way Maxine writes about her experience...
    Calvino Rabeni: This issue is confusing to a lot of people - it keeps coming up again and again, many questions
    Liza Deischer: cu guys
    arabella Ella: yes Maxine was great during the session yesterday
    Wol Euler: bye liza, take care
    arabella Ella: nite Liza
    Mickorod Renard: bye Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: BYe Liza
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Liza
    arabella Ella: on a totally different topic ...
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Eliza Madrigal: She, I think, definitely wrestled with trying to know that she was understanding what she was reading... but then relaxed into it....
    Eliza Madrigal: let it read her, in a way
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sure :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And I believe, we have to live with that confusion for a while :)

    arabella Ella: Would you recommend downloading Viewer 2.0 for SL?
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Wol Euler: no
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Wol Euler: frankly
    Calvino Rabeni: but not on a Mac :)
    Wol Euler laughs
    Eliza Madrigal: hahhaha, this is the topic of the week :)
    Wol Euler: definitely no for mac.
    Eliza Madrigal is going to try emerald this week
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni has "italic" envy
    arabella Ella: why does it not replace the previous viewer (so it says)?
    Wol Euler: back up your user data directory before you do, Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: hehheeh
    Wol Euler: just in case.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, no....
    Eliza Madrigal: that might keep me from doing it....
    Wol Euler shrugs. It was OK for me, but accidents might happen.
    Mickorod Renard: whats wrong with the regular viewer?
    Wol Euler coughs. You do make regular backups anyway, RIGHT?
    Eliza Madrigal: um
    Wol Euler taps her foot
    Eliza Madrigal: no
    Wol Euler sighs
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal feels ashamed
    Wol Euler: you should.
    arabella Ella feels guilty about back ups too
    Wol Euler: just do it
    Eliza Madrigal: ara and I are partners in crime
    Mickorod Renard: I dont either,,just throw the pc away if it corrupts
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Wol Euler: look, you can buy a terabyte external drive for 70 Euros.
    Wol Euler: the pc sure, but what about your data?
    Wol Euler: what about your photos and lettters and tax forms?
    Mickorod Renard: I have nothing of importance
    Eliza Madrigal: making note "terabyte external drive'
    Mickorod Renard: its a budhist pc
    Eliza Madrigal: heheheh
    arabella Ella: ehrm ... important stuff like tax forms gets to be in hard copy here
    Mickorod Renard: watz them?
    arabella Ella: and ... i know i should not say this but ... at times losing data has felt like spring cleaning
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I do copy pictures actually, generally
    Wol Euler: well, I'Ve done my duty and reminded you of the possibility and significance of making backups.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Wol :)
    arabella Ella: thanks Wol :)
    Mickorod Renard: thanks Wol,,knowledge dropped
    Wol Euler: it's like giving somebody a map of the world. WHere they go is not your problem-
    arabella Ella: indeed ... but a map of a village would be easier to navigate
    arabella Ella: the whole world ... feels quite daunting
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: if you are a bird a map is of no use
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: sure, but their maps would be different
    Wol Euler: three-dimensional
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd better go
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you all
    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
    arabella Ella: bye Eliza
    Wol Euler: goodnight eliza, take care
    Eliza Madrigal waves. Thank you :) Bye for now
    Mickorod Renard: wait a mom
    Mickorod Renard: Eliza
    Mickorod Renard: do u want me to ,,,,too late
    Mickorod Renard: :(
    Wol Euler: ah well.
    Mickorod Renard: yep
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I need to get back home
    Wol Euler: 'night mick, take care
    arabella Ella: nite Mick
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite,,nice c in u all
    arabella Ella: if i may pose my question again ... why does viewer 2.0 not replace the previous one?
    Wol Euler: oh it does.
    Wol Euler: but in my opinion, which Calvino does not share, it is a lousy viewer
    arabella Ella smiles
    Wol Euler: I personally am waiting for Emerald 2.0
    arabella Ella: altho as you said ... it could be different with Mac
    Calvino Rabeni: RIgt, I like 2.0 quite a bit more than the previous
    arabella Ella: so tonite i got three opinions on this
    arabella Ella: Yaku said it made very little if any difference
    arabella Ella: Calvino says yes
    Calvino Rabeni: After you install it, you can use either one
    arabella Ella: Wol says NO
    Calvino Rabeni: I said, yes, but not on a mac
    Wol Euler smiles
    arabella Ella: ah ok ... so that's what it means Calvino ... not replacing previous viewer
    Wol Euler: not on a mac, no. The current Mac release has a nasty bug
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, you will have both after the install
    arabella Ella: oh ok good
    arabella Ella: and i dont have a Mac
    Calvino Rabeni: So no problem :)
    arabella Ella: exactly
    arabella Ella: i must go now thanks for your advice!
    Calvino Rabeni: Give it a try, see which you prefer
    arabella Ella: nite!
    Calvino Rabeni: YW
    arabella Ella: yes i will
    Calvino Rabeni: I must go also
    Wol Euler: goodngight ara, good luck
    Wol Euler: bye cal, take care
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, CU later

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