2010.04.10 19:00 - Standing, Pondering a Sky with Happy Feet

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who hopes to comment on this log very soon. :) 

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)))
    Pema Pera: Hi there, Eliza!
    Pema Pera: only you, tonight, so far?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes... and now you...
    Eliza Madrigal: I just got home... thrilled with my own timing to be here punctually :)
    Eliza Madrigal: that's Wol's... no description...
    Pema Pera: just curious :-) looks like an oldfashioned radio speaker
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm
    Pema Pera: yes, I had seen your note, of being perhaps a little late, and thought to jump by briefly to make sure there was somebody here
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I'll manage the crowds somehow.. hehe
    Pema Pera: haha, yes!
    Pema Pera: Is there a topic you'd like to talk about?
    Eliza Madrigal: Was just about to ask the same...
    Pema Pera: (before we'll see each other, a week from now, with Wol and Gaya and others)
    Pema Pera: (here in San Francisco)
    Eliza Madrigal: I enjoyed reading the impromptu TSK session from last night's session
    Pema Pera: ah yes, nice surprise, being called up, hehehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya and I are excited about SF (talked with her a bit today)
    Pema Pera: well, one topic could be humility
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohh, sure
    Pema Pera: I talked with Stim about that today


    Pema Pera: HEY
    Pema Pera: SKY
    Pema Pera: The SKY is falling !!!!
    Pema Pera: so nice to see you here again
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sky :)) Nice to see you
    Pema Pera: I'm glad you still remembered your way back here
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: Eliza, have you met Sky?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, once here I think, and in recent emails :)
    Sky Szimmer: hi everyone
    Sky Szimmer: surprise to be here
    Pema Pera: yes, how did that happen?
    Pema Pera: you switched on the computer and woosh, you found yourself here? :-)
    Sky Szimmer: had some time kids eating thought i'd check sl out
    Pema Pera: glad you did -- and also I'm still waiting for your reply as to when to meet in Berkeley!
    Pema Pera: I'm still here next week, but the week after we have our Play as Being retreat in San Francisco
    Pema Pera: I'm staying right near Japan town
    Eliza Madrigal: How far is Japan town from Berkeley?
    Sky Szimmer: oh. you are here now?
    Pema Pera: half an hour by subway (BART) and then another half our walking
    Sky Szimmer: how about sunday?
    Pema Pera: yes, I am, as I told you -- you should read your email, my dear :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, not far at all
    Pema Pera: let me check


    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila, Nice to see you too! Do you know Sky?
    Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Cal :)
    Pema Pera: actually, on Sunday Steven will come to my hotel; if you can drive that day, we can meet here at Japan town, after 2 pm on Sunday, would that be okay? ( to Sky)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza, Sky, Pema and Cal
    Pema Pera: hi Pila and hi Cal!
    Sky Szimmer: ok., but will have kids
    Pema Pera: fine!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: I'll call you later to arrange details
    Pila Mulligan: kids allowed?
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Sky Szimmer: great. will see you in j town around 2ish
    Pema Pera: Pila, you have met Sky, right?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening, Pema, Pila, Eliza and Sky
    Pila Mulligan: I may have, Sky, your name seems familiar
    Pema Pera: she was part of the very first month of PaB, two years ago
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I didn't know that... first month!
    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you
    Pema Pera: and came frequently during the first half year, until RL took over
    Pema Pera: Calvino, I don't think you have met Sky yet
    Eliza Madrigal: pesky RL :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good to meet you Sky
    Sky Szimmer: no, i don't think so. its been a while. nice to meet you too


    Pema Pera: how is life, Sky?
    Pila Mulligan: would you like to sit closer?
    Sky Szimmer: great. new attitude new mindframe everything is perfect
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: wow, that sounds great, Sky, can you tell us your secret ? (^_^)
    Pila Mulligan: sounds lovely
    Eliza Madrigal leans in
    Sky Szimmer: just getting with the program :)
    Pema Pera: program?
    Sky Szimmer: j.k.
    Sky Szimmer: been PaB that's all
    Pila Mulligan: are your feet happy? happy feet make everything feel good
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Sky Szimmer: what feet? i have no feet
    Pila Mulligan: ohoh
    Pila Mulligan: wrong question
    Pema Pera pondering a sky with feet . . . .
    Sky Szimmer: no body, no feet, no me
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, that sounds pretty empty
    Pema Pera: hence the ninja appearance, not really there
    Pila Mulligan: "going into your courtyard and not feeling your body" -- a line from the I Ching
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: did anyone watch the PBS documentary on the life of Buddha?
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pila Mulligan: I liked it
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for the reminder, Pila. I did too... moreso the beginning I think...
    Eliza Madrigal: and I thought they didn't skip significant things, while making it simple...
    Pila Mulligan: they have all the little peices on their internet site, and since I have no TV I watched it by ssembling the parts there
    Pila Mulligan: so thesegments may have been shown in a differnt order on TV, but I agree, they had a nice simple summary of the segments
    Eliza Madrigal: some of the animations/cartoons seemed a little long :) But that was more a persnickety thing on my part to be bothered
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I never heard the story of the white elephant before, that was cool
    Pila Mulligan: his mother's dream


    Pila Mulligan: when is the SFO retreat?
    Pema Pera: the week after next
    Pila Mulligan: are you going to run over to Japan before then?
    Pila Mulligan: Pema
    Pema Pera considering the idea of running over to Japan, walking on water . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal giggles at 'running over'
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: a lot of water!
    Pila Mulligan: metaphor intended :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: I'll be visiting Japan after the retreat
    Pila Mulligan: related to the facility of your globe totting
    Sky Szimmer: youwi;; need happy feet 4 that
    Eliza Madrigal: hahhaha
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: floating feet :)
    Pila Mulligan: I appreciated your observation (in a PaB log) about the value of a US passport vis a vis the whimsy of TSA people
    Pila Mulligan: I can hardly endure them just for local island flights
    Pema Pera: ah yes, waiting to get my passport, any day now
    Pila Mulligan: cool mazel tov
    Pema Pera: thnx :)
    Pila Mulligan: if mazel tov in in order :) some may suspect otherwise lol
    Sky Szimmer: got 2 run sans feet nice meetg u all
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Sky
    Pema Pera: Actually, I'll take off too
    Eliza Madrigal: Sky, very nice to see you
    Eliza Madrigal: And you too Pema
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
    Pema Pera: I was just coming in briefly to check the scene at 7
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye
    Pema Pera: bye everybody!
    Eliza Madrigal waves
    Calvino Rabeni: bye


    Pila Mulligan: what is the object Wol has left there by the pool, anyone know?
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila, three times today standing meditation came up...
    Pila Mulligan: oh, cool
    Pila Mulligan: did you do it then?
    Pila Mulligan: standing meditaiton?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, and then >aha< Pila arrives at a session for me to bother with questions :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Well....
    Eliza Madrigal: I've done a little at times...
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I like it
    Eliza Madrigal: bent knees...
    Pila Mulligan: it can get gruelling if you do too much
    Pila Mulligan: yep, bent knees
    Eliza Madrigal: but today some pointers toward specific poses came up, and things like that...
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, what were the pointers?
    Eliza Madrigal: tree hugging pose?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: especialy with a tree :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, I think I'm going to work this into practice, since it comes up like this ...
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe just a little every day...
    Pila Mulligan: have you heard of horse practice?
    Eliza Madrigal: 10 -20 minutes
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes that one came up too
    Eliza Madrigal: What do you think?
    Pila Mulligan: this is where the connection with the feet is especially valuable
    Pila Mulligan: you may be able to feet your breathing connecting you with the ground through your feet
    Pila Mulligan: feel*
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh.... I've had walks like that
    Pila Mulligan: it literally feels like a flow of energy
    Pila Mulligan: :) it is cool
    Pila Mulligan: quite healty
    Pila Mulligan: healthy*
    Pila Mulligan: it makes the standing meditation better (and easier) if you can feel it
    Eliza Madrigal: someone said tonight, to have feet faced outward... almost for ballet... but I was told its more a square stance....
    Eliza Madrigal: so would like to start rather clearly and not frustrate myself
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: 'be like the sky'
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I'd sugggest you expereiment and find the best feeling for yourself
    Pila Mulligan: then adjust as you go along
    Pila Mulligan: as to stance/psoture
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh that sounds too simple :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Pila Mulligan: it is :)
    Pila Mulligan: not only how you aim your feet but also how you place your arms
    Eliza Madrigal: I found myself standing during longer practice this morning... just because I wanted to...
    Eliza Madrigal: that's the first time it came up
    Pila Mulligan: generally, if your feet are about the same width apart as your shoulders it is as suggested in tai chi
    Pila Mulligan: but to me the best part is to have your butt as if sitting in a saddle
    Pila Mulligan: rolling the top of your thigh bone in the hip socket
    Eliza Madrigal: that sounds like something one couldnt do too long?
    Pila Mulligan: so the pelvis is forward
    Pila Mulligan: it is if you let it be comfortable
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay... gotcha.. similar to some yoga
    Pila Mulligan: it becomes more so over time too
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: okay, I can picture that one
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: it seems to open the spine some
    Pila Mulligan: for chi
    Calvino Rabeni: And then, what to do with the spine...
    Pila Mulligan: agan, be comfortable wiht it
    Pila Mulligan: and adjust as you progresss
    Pila Mulligan: the chi will guide you
    Pila Mulligan: 'let the force be with you' :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Pila Mulligan: it wants to grow up too


    Eliza Madrigal: Must be the chi insisting to add more subtle physical things into practice
    Pila Mulligan: it wants to *wake* up too may sound more appropriate in the PaB context, but I was thinking of how the chi finds its way through the spine by practice and that kind of growth
    Pila Mulligan: yes, exactly Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: it can only insist so much though, you have to help it guide you
    Eliza Madrigal: even in the pauses at times... stretching... checking posture... though I've often done that
    Pila Mulligan: yep :)
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a certain lengthening of the spine that I feel, has to arise from within it
    Pila Mulligan: to me that is the actual value of the 9 second pause
    Pila Mulligan: like a yoga
    Pila Mulligan: not the only value, but most actual to me
    Eliza Madrigal: makes sense
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Cal, it really does feel like the psine lengthens , doesnt it
    Eliza Madrigal: lenthening of the spine, Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Pila Mulligan: stretching kind of
    Calvino Rabeni: from within
    Pila Mulligan: :) yep


    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting...
    Eliza Madrigal: With yoga I feel an expansion of range...
    Pila Mulligan: yep, just imagine the space between vertebrae
    Pila Mulligan: compressed by stress, then floating on chi
    Pila Mulligan: growing
    Eliza Madrigal: and an ability to relax more deeply, but don't keep up with it .. perhaps this sort of thing will be more natural to work in every day...
    Eliza Madrigal: 'on the spot' as it were
    Pila Mulligan: it evolves
    Pila Mulligan: in competition with rigor mortis though
    Pila Mulligan: both are long term things
    Calvino Rabeni: I visualize, the sacrum dropping gradually downward towards the earth in response to gravity, and the top of the head responding to the spaciousness of the sky
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: However that might not be your specific practice :)
    Pila Mulligan: spine floating between?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: in my daily confrontation with rigor mortis (tai chi practice) that metaphor fits incely
    Eliza Madrigal: Before anyone arrived, Pema brought up the topic of humility... working with physical limitations keeps one pretty humble perhaps :)
    Pila Mulligan: this is how practice whorks after a certain age, about 60 for me
    Pila Mulligan: yes, they vary from person to perosn'
    Pila Mulligan: limitations and humility
    Eliza Madrigal: "I ache in the places where I used to play" L. Cohen
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: but much of that can be addressed
    Pila Mulligan: it people try
    Pila Mulligan: and some cannot


    Calvino Rabeni: There is an element to it that's important - to trust one's own process and its emergence (rather than imposing it to match a mental image)
    Pila Mulligan: modesty is the most auspicious of all the essential images int he I Ching, by the way
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: We are not trying to conform to a pattern
    Pila Mulligan: it is the only gua with no negative connotations
    Calvino Rabeni: that we know in advance
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh...rare then
    Pila Mulligan: occasional :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Calvino I appreciate that distinction very much....
    Eliza Madrigal: like standing this morning... there was room enough in my practice to do so
    Eliza Madrigal: but I'd guess like many things, can become strict about it
    Calvino Rabeni: Many people don't get "into" the practice because they fear not knowing how to do it "right"
    Pila Mulligan: as opposed to simply doing it :)
    Eliza Madrigal: with happy feet
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)


    Calvino Rabeni: Yes - "right" is simply doing it :)
    Pila Mulligan: want to do a little exercise?
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure!
    Pila Mulligan: extend you arms out alittle from your side, while sitting
    Pila Mulligan: separate the finger a little in each hand, so they are apart
    Pila Mulligan: then let your hands shake liek you are really nervouse -- heebie jeebies -- for about half a minute
    Pila Mulligan: can you feel the energy around your hand then?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh sure! to elbows really...
    Pila Mulligan: next time you try stanidng meditaiton
    Pila Mulligan: before you start
    Pila Mulligan: try a similar exercise with your feet :)


    Eliza Madrigal: hehe, it would have to be before you start
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
    Pila Mulligan: one at a time
    Eliza Madrigal: one at a time while standing?
    Pila Mulligan: of couorse
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: or yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... didn't know if you meant do this sitting and then stand....
    Pila Mulligan: nope, I meant standing, should have said so first :)
    Pila Mulligan: it is not as interesting with the feet when you sit
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe sky or pema could do with both feet standing...
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Pila Mulligan: floating
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: you can really exaggerate the shaking too
    Pila Mulligan: strong is okay
    Eliza Madrigal: jazz hands :)
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: ... ?
    Pila Mulligan: Cal may have a thought here
    Calvino Rabeni: In my experience, there's a significant difference between shaking that originates "from within" and shaking imposed as a voluntary controlled action
    Pila Mulligan: yes, quite true
    Pila Mulligan: I'm referring to voluntary, from wihtin
    Pila Mulligan: simulated nervous shaking
    Eliza Madrigal: So can play around with it a bit....
    Calvino Rabeni: The "within" shaking may intensify with attention
    Calvino Rabeni: but it is not imposed by major muscle groups
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and in playing with it you may find that if you do have a nervous hand shake some day you can actually do this exercie and relieve it some


    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is an energy thing more than a muscle thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Eliza Madrigal: hm... nice
    Calvino Rabeni: the energy moves the body
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi {Paradise
    Pila Mulligan: how are you?
    Eliza Madrigal: We were talking about standing meditation.. energy flow, etc.
    Paradise Tennant: hiya pila .. cal eliza :)
    Paradise Tennant: hmm interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: Really enjoying it though will have go sign off soon.... early day tomorrow
    Pila Mulligan: and happy feet :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes! Can't forget the happy feet :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye ELiza, nice to see you, sweet dreams
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Pila, Sweet dreams to you too!
    Eliza Madrigal: And to you Cal, and Paradise :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Hugs


    Paradise Tennant: was youtubing last night had today off so stayed up late .. watched a whole series on tibetan energy flowing movements .. that were introduced by tarthang tulku
    Pila Mulligan: hugs
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite eliza
    Pila Mulligan: nice, Paradise -- those are the most fun parts of You Tube to me
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting Paradise.. would love to find a link to that in the log perhaps :) Like an easter egg
    Eliza Madrigal: Hah, Night :)
    Paradise Tennant: kk will dig one up very nice series worth watching :)
    Pila Mulligan: did you see th PBS Buddha show?
    Pila Mulligan: this week
    Paradise Tennant: no ..
    Paradise Tennant: never really turn on my tv
    Paradise Tennant: i missed it
    Pila Mulligan: it was pretty good, I have no TV -- but they have the segments on their website, PBS
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Pila Mulligan: so you can watch them online
    Paradise Tennant: cool
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: did you find the You Tube link? I looked but cannot tell from what Google shows
    Paradise Tennant: just searching for it now ..
    Paradise Tennant: sorry having to multi task here may take me a moment :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: we were talking about tarthang tulku last night so I watched some short videos on tsk on you tube and then started doing general searches on him
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: was the video about a tibetan yoga exercise
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    Pila Mulligan: Google has quite a few tibetan energy yoga videos
    Paradise Tennant: there a term for it but not yoga
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Paradise Tennant: ekum nye
    Pila Mulligan: I was just about to ask :)
    Pila Mulligan: found it
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.kumnyeyoga.com/
    Pila Mulligan: "The system of Kum Nye Yoga presented here is drawn from the training and experience of Tarthang Tulku,..."
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.kumnyeyoga.com/online-prog...
    Paradise Tennant: lol you are faster
    Paradise Tennant: yes 106 videos
    Paradise Tennant: yowser


    Pila Mulligan: "Kum Nye Yoga is a gentle healing system that relieves stress, transforms negative patterns, and helps us to be balanced and healthy. "
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the wolrd will get healthier then
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Not to be "mundane" but what's this object floating in front of us (belonging to Wol)?
    Paradise Tennant: yes was very interesting very relaxing .. specially the how tos on using all kinds of energy even the upsetting negative ones
    Paradise Tennant: i was just checking it out
    Pila Mulligan: Cal mentioned earlier how fear of doing something wrong can interfere with doing it
    Calvino Rabeni: Right that's important, using the so-called negative energies
    Paradise Tennant: yes apparently there is lots of really good stuff that is very usable :)
    Paradise Tennant: he was very enthusiatic about it :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at my typos !
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: could this be something to do with the recorder
    Pila Mulligan: a recorder causing typos, what an idea :)
    Pila Mulligan: what is that object Paradise -- I misunderstood your comment :)
    Pila Mulligan: I was wondering why Wol put it there
    Calvino Rabeni: Whatever it is, appears to be pretty durable
    Paradise Tennant: smiles no my typos are all mine .. just wondering what this was and why it was here :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: too bad, I need a good typo excuse
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe there's a typo "kami" Pila
    Pila Mulligan: ahh, nice idea
    Pila Mulligan: a preta typa
    Pila Mulligan: a key djin
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W533_...xt=1&index=109
    Calvino Rabeni: :)pila
    Paradise Tennant: here is the link to the three tsk videos
    Pila Mulligan: tanks Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W533_PRGHFE
    Paradise Tennant: actually that is it .. the other was a play list
    Pila Mulligan: :)


    Calvino Rabeni: There are so many techniques of practice that involve visualization
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: think I like the ones that don't best :)
    Paradise Tennant: the ones that are just still :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And at the same time, I believe people proceed normally as if visual mental images had no effect or significance
    Calvino Rabeni: And if they do have effect/significance, one's use of them should not be limited to these funny "practice" routines we might learn from time to time
    Calvino Rabeni: but be much more general
    Paradise Tennant: there are such interesting approaches out there .. last night I listened to a lady who had started a mystery school
    Pila Mulligan: mystery as in nature?
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you tried, e.g. moving the monitor, and comparing it to *visualizing* moving the monitor, in which the SL images are displayed?
    Calvino Rabeni: While observing the effect it has on the nature and meaning of those images....
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NxKNW0lPgI
    Pila Mulligan: not sur eI understand
    Paradise Tennant: blinks
    Paradise Tennant: moving the monitor and comparing it to visualizing moving the monitor ..
    Paradise Tennant: there is a hand exercise the tibetans do that is similar


    Calvino Rabeni: Yes. Your avatar appears in a fixed location relative to the rest of one's body, and the monitor a fixed size.
    Calvino Rabeni: The mind's eye can vary all of those conditions
    Calvino Rabeni: With perhaps a equivalent effect as if one changed the monitor for a projection video system
    Calvino Rabeni: And watched it in a standing stance rather than sitting in a chair
    Calvino Rabeni: The internal body sense would be completely different
    Calvino Rabeni: Perception is not just a flow that is reaching from world to oneself
    Pila Mulligan: so you imagine you are moving the video screen and that the stuff on it moves also?
    Calvino Rabeni: The neurology of it - structure of neurons, etc. - supports that there is more "energy" or whatever being projected outward from the self, into space and into time
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, you imagine - it is one of the possible experiments for the "pause"
    Paradise Tennant: yes an interesting one
    Pila Mulligan: was this an exercise from last night listening to a lady about a mystery school?


    Calvino Rabeni: All the visuallizations that are part of all these "routines" learned as Tai Chi, quigong, kum nye, yoga, meditation, etc. -
    Paradise Tennant: lol no me .. surfing .. :on youtube
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Are basically just to awaken you to how the bodymind normally works
    Pila Mulligan: ... I was wondering where the mystery part enters?
    Paradise Tennant: I think the egyptians had mystery schools that is where the term comes from :)
    Paradise Tennant: tried the visualization in the pause
    Pila Mulligan: where is your monitor now Paradise? :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles just where it normally is :)
    Pila Mulligan: I can imagine the movement but it does not inspire a sense of mystery
    Pila Mulligan: yet, anyway :)
    Pila Mulligan: maybe I'm stuck in one place :)
    Paradise Tennant: wonders sorry I think I interjected the term .. it related to the link not the visualization .. though .. maybe on some level that too
    Paradise Tennant: the whole body mind is a mystery
    Calvino Rabeni: People have a "hunger" for mystery - someone can come up with a plausible framework for it and then it becomes meaningful as people project into it
    Pila Mulligan: mystery is a quintessential form of drama
    Calvino Rabeni: There seems to need to be a sense of "beyond" to it

    Paradise Tennant: hmm funny I think the reverse we are always trying to minimize it .. explain it a away .. and never really want to face how little we know :) so we make it up instead
    Calvino Rabeni: Insofar as it gives the pattern we know as self, room to move, room to grow
    Paradise Tennant: a lot of science is just made up .. until someone makes something else up that proves it wrong :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: How is it that a visualization can induce "energy" movements in the body-mind?
    Pila Mulligan: I read somewhere that when physicians used leeches to bleed patients long ago it actually could have a few limited helth benefits
    Calvino Rabeni: Science would assume they are unrelated; but, ?
    Paradise Tennant: how come you can see the outline of amputated limbs in electormagnetic images ?
    Pila Mulligan: fantasy and imagination would seem to beenfit from visually oriented exercises
    Paradise Tennant: lol thinks it is all fantasy :)
    Pila Mulligan: life is but a dream :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It is because the sense of self - itself - is one of those visualized constructs
    Pila Mulligan: meerily meerily meerily meerily gently down the stream
    Pila Mulligan: merrily*
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: But not "merely" :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: so seeing the self in a better light may help, eh?
    Calvino Rabeni: There are all the demos with "rubber hand" and moving phantom limbs of amputees
    Calvino Rabeni: The eye sees (visualizes) it, then the body feeling says that what is seen, is true
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    Pila Mulligan: how are you?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello, good,
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: long session...
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve
    Paradise Tennant: we are noodling
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: noodling?
    Calvino Rabeni: "noodling" a massage therapy term ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you "visualize" how that would feel?
    stevenaia Michinaga: turning one into a noodle-like feeling?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pila Mulligan: as opposed to canoodling
    Pila Mulligan: (smooching)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol I often also call it poddling (because of the dog bearded collie poodle mix )
    Paradise Tennant: lol that would be poodling
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know if Pila would agree, but I think the I Ching is about Qualities
    Pila Mulligan: I agree that you think the I Ching is about Qualities :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And when you receive a massage, what is important is the specific qualities of the movement
    Pila Mulligan: never heard to the contrary at least
    Pila Mulligan: the qulaity of an act is certainly important
    Calvino Rabeni: In our world it's a somewhat tricky thing to talk about
    Calvino Rabeni: since most things are overtly measured and quantified
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: or evauated logically
    Pila Mulligan: I agree
    Pila Mulligan: and empirical qualkuities are often overlooked
    Pila Mulligan: qualities*
    Pila Mulligan: or observed qualities
    Pila Mulligan: but we live in a yang world these daze
    Calvino Rabeni: Some extremely subtle massage therapy treatments can be quite effective
    Pila Mulligan: acupuncture may also fall into that category
    Paradise Tennant: loves acupuncture
    Paradise Tennant: works really well for all manner of isssues!
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Pila Mulligan: and it is also quite subtle
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Pila Mulligan: subtle*
    Pila Mulligan: same with moxibustion

    Paradise Tennant: speaking of subtle .. I think I should quietly take my leave .. getting late and the dog gets cranky if I keep him up to late :)
    Pila Mulligan: good evening to you and Blue Paradise
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni waves to Paradise
    Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams and subtle arfs
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite all :) sweet dreams :) full of subtle qualities :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off as well
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks
    Pila Mulligan: nioce to see you
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care Steve
    Pila Mulligan: Cal, in my opinion the I Ching approaches is unique in expressing qualities by way of the concept of yin
    Pila Mulligan: approach*
    Pila Mulligan: yin quality pervades acts and conditions
    Calvino Rabeni: (listens)
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, yes
    Pila Mulligan: so, for exmaple, a particular quality not considered by science (unmeasurable) affects the conditions of things
    Pila Mulligan: the quality of acts and expereinces
    Pila Mulligan: some day maybe science will measure yin
    Pila Mulligan: in terms of quality
    Pila Mulligan: or even qunatity to start :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What it brings to mind, is the pervasive importance of relaxation in the various practices, in order to create the yin space that has enough sensitivity to register the subtle qualities

    Pila Mulligan: hint: Chinese cooks add sesame oil at then end of cooking to enhance the yin
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but how to meqasure it?
    Pila Mulligan: measure*
    Calvino Rabeni: What do you think ?
    Pila Mulligan: about measuirng yin?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't quite get the concept of it being measurable
    Pila Mulligan: I guess I evaluate yin more thanmeasure -- I see its quality -- ubt I was thinking how to translate that to science terms


    Pila Mulligan: science does not yet generally acknowledge what Chinese and many other cultures have long referred to by the term yin
    Pila Mulligan: and before some sicentist can write a paper on it they probably need to make it measurable
    Pila Mulligan: or viewale or something
    Pila Mulligan: tangible :)
    Calvino Rabeni: In a sense - an analogy that occurred to me in the TSK class is that yin:space as yang:time
    Pila Mulligan: yes, that sounds fun
    Pila Mulligan: so how do you measure space?
    Calvino Rabeni: So yin could be "space" in science - the place where things are allowed to happen
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: They made up metrics such as distances
    Calvino Rabeni: but only relative to standard objects -
    Pila Mulligan: for those inclinced to grant writing, one could get NSF funds to analyze how sesame oil affects cooked food
    Calvino Rabeni: such as platinum sticks or light waves
    Pila Mulligan: or how tang kuei differs from ginseng
    Pila Mulligan: and then, at the next level, aside from just the dimensions of a space, how about its qualities?
    Pila Mulligan: is the air clea here?
    Pila Mulligan: clean*
    Pila Mulligan: are the moslecules happy?
    Pila Mulligan: molecules*
    Pila Mulligan: this is noe of the most subtle things from the Secret of the Golden Flower: yin corruption cause yang compulsion
    Pila Mulligan: one*
    Pila Mulligan: causes*
    Pila Mulligan: maybe kind of a panic reaction

    :) Travelogue...

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm traveling to thailand in a couple of days - an opportunity to sense qualities of the spaces I encounter
    Calvino Rabeni: AH, the golden flower :)
    Pila Mulligan: oh, nice Cal
    Pila Mulligan: for fun?
    Pila Mulligan: vacation that is
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, for recreation
    Pila Mulligan: i hope you have a good time
    Pila Mulligan: maybe find a Thai wife :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks, I will. It is a way of "dropping" a big cultural chunk of stuff
    Pila Mulligan: truly
    Pila Mulligan: and immersing yourself in a differnt chunk
    Pila Mulligan: a much older one too
    Pila Mulligan: older than Marin County at least
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like the sense of history - like an ancient cavern that used to be inhabited by a tiger
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Memories of ancestors
    Calvino Rabeni: Something not too conscious in the West
    Calvino Rabeni: All adding to a sense of place - and their Qualities
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm looking forward to visiting those monasteries that are on the top of a Karst spire
    Pila Mulligan: Thai new year celebration ends April 10th
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.tourismthailand.org/festi...tent-7500.html
    Pila Mulligan: oops starts the 10th ends the 15th
    Pila Mulligan: how much time will you have in Thailand?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I have been wanting to be there during new year
    Calvino Rabeni: This time only 2 weeks
    Pila Mulligan: should be plenty
    Pila Mulligan: for a vacation

    Pila Mulligan: "Karst towers are surrounded by rivers, alluvial plains, or mangrove forests" -- http://www.siue.edu/GEOGRAPHY/ONLINE/MGfig9.jpg

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, last time I went for 3 months, so did not have to try to "fit everything in"
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the links
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.siue.edu/GEOGRAPHY/ONLINE/MGfig10a.jpg

    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: many people go there from here failry often
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.siue.edu/GEOGRAPHY/ONLINE/MGfig10b.jpg

    Pila Mulligan: "At Tiger Cave Monastery in the province of Phang Nga, Buddhist monks have established a temple, part of which extends under a karst overhang. Access to this part of the monastery is by a stairway that ascends a tall, nearly vertical ridge of limestone and then descends on the other side into a closed karst valley that is lush with the dark green vegetation of a tropical rain forest."

    Calvino Rabeni: http://images.google.com/images?q=Than%20Bokkharani&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-ContextMenu&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7GGLR_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I'm planning to go to Wat Tham Suea
    Pila Mulligan: cool -- going to climb the nearly vertical stairs?
    Calvino Rabeni: YEs
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: one thing I like about the langauge is it is very literal
    Calvino Rabeni: place names are descriptive - so Wat Tham Seua means "tiger cave temple"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It makes it easy to read the maps, if you have a modest vocabulary
    Pila Mulligan: I like the image of a tough climb then Shangri La
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke on the map - "Talaat Yai" - "Big Market"
    Pila Mulligan: ... "a closed karst valley that is lush with the dark green vegetation of a tropical rain forest."
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.1stopkrabi.com/articles/phra_nang/

    Calvino Rabeni: The Chat Log is becoming a travelogue :)
    Pila Mulligan: wow -- that is beautiful
    Pila Mulligan: the photo at thelink
    Calvino Rabeni: I've learned to be independent there - e.g. to rent a motorcycle and handle my own transporation sponeaneously
    Calvino Rabeni: So I don't worry about the public transportation, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: I've never been to Hawaii
    Pila Mulligan: Tham Phra Nang has good surfing during the monsoon they say :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I like the monsoon, don't think of it as a season to avoid
    Pila Mulligan: even a lot of people living here have never been to Hawai`i :)
    Calvino Rabeni: prices get pretty low then too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, the state, not the island :)
    Pila Mulligan: I was thinkig of tourist destinatins -- http://www.wayfaring.info/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/6395-1186330286-waikiki_at_dusk_hawaii_preview.jpg

    Pila Mulligan: many people see nice hotels and sand and think that's it

    Calvino Rabeni: My traveling companion for this trip, lived on a condo on the waikiki strip
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Pila Mulligan: there you are :)
    Pila Mulligan: as opposed to this -- http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1399/1255068811_9638531b22.jpg?v=0

    Calvino Rabeni: One day again, perhaps, Hawaii will be a remote exotic location
    Pila Mulligan: some day, long ago in the future
    Calvino Rabeni: WIthin my lifetime is a possible future
    Pila Mulligan: depends on how long you live :)
    Pila Mulligan: mine is predictably not likely to see Hawaii chnage much
    Pila Mulligan: toward restoration, that is
    Pila Mulligan: it may keep changing toward evelpoment
    Pila Mulligan: develop[ment*
    Pila Mulligan: my lifetime that is
    Calvino Rabeni: I was watching some John Trudell videos recently
    Pila Mulligan: but it is happening already some places -- restorration
    Pila Mulligan: oh, nice
    Pila Mulligan: an inspiring person
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway Pila - actually I have to do things like "packing" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The departure is fast approaching
    Calvino Rabeni: So I'll take leave - nice chatting with you
    Pila Mulligan: have a wonderful time n your travel Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Aloha
    Pila Mulligan: I lok ofrward to hearing more
    Calvino Rabeni: thx, bye
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
    Calvino Rabeni: It will be recounted :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: bye for now
    Pila Mulligan: bye for onw

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