2010.05.31 07:00 - Approaching Time, Sublime

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza , who was joined by Bleu, Yakuzza, Pema, Zen, Archmage, Druth, astroboy, and a new visitor: Kiki. :) 

    An often fascinating session in which we discussed the art of sacredness, what is seen in weaves of time, the E8 TOE, Wu Wei, the Tao, Science, and views... 

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :))
    Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm filling in for Eden today, as she has an appointment. :) How are things?
    Bleu Oleander: great, you?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi you too
    Yakuzza Lethecus: two
    Yakuzza Lethecus: gosh
    Bleu Oleander: hey Yaku
    Bleu Oleander: interesting art show yesterday Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Doing pretty well... just grabbed my sculpture from the village square, and ran into someone interesting from kira japan
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi ya :)
    Bleu Oleander: oh nice
    Bleu Oleander: I took mine too
    Eliza Madrigal: I didn't get a chance to see the photos yet though, as I found myself in conversation about the word 'kira' and also the difference between 'religious' and 'sacred'

    "Kira Kira" in Japanese, is the sound of a star blinking, as I understand it.

    The visitor elaborated a bit for me:

    they say it's from "kira-boshi" 綺羅 星

    kira =brinking, boshi, hoshi = star

    but, originaly, kira meant a gorgeous cloth.

    Bleu Oleander: Eden and I put our photos there to get people started

    Eliza Madrigal: What do you think makes something 'sacred'?
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bleu... look forward to seeing them :)
    Bleu Oleander: reverence, respect, come to mind
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, yes... like a feel of weightiness...
    Bleu Oleander: mostly in a religious connotation
    Eliza Madrigal: when she asked the best I could think of at the time was 'setting something apart'
    Bleu Oleander: in a loose sense yes
    Bleu Oleander: highly valued
    Eliza Madrigal: but sacred being more 'open' in that one can hold something sacred without insisting that someone else does necessarily...
    Bleu Oleander: best case scenario
    Bleu Oleander: unfortunately usually not like that
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Bleu Oleander: hard to delineate what is sacred and what is not
    Bleu Oleander: don't know even if one should
    Eliza Madrigal: the visitor was appreciating the museum actually, which is a good representation

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Yaku, Bleu, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: We were talking about "What is sacred", sparked by a conversation I had this morning...
    Pema Pera: did you find some answers? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) no answers... just enjoying the question
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arch :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Arch
    Pema Pera: Hi Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Eliza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Good morning Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Zen :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
    Pema Pera: Hi Zen!
    Zen Arado: Hi all :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Nice to see you, Yak
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi zen
    Pema Pera: "sacred" seems to reflect a mind set more than anything else . . . .
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Zen, Bleu
    Zen Arado: as applied to objects?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I guess that's why I kept thinking 'set apart'... its a way of holding something, to me... holding a view...

    Seeing time by shooting stars ...

    Eliza Madrigal: ties into taking snapshots nicely...
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd better get busy on that!
    Zen Arado: hope I got something last night at exhibition
    Eliza Madrigal: exhibition?
    Bleu Oleander: very nice exhibition
    Zen Arado: exhibition were at last night
    Bleu Oleander: artists interpret "big bang"
    Zen Arado: Hi Druth
    Bleu Oleander: was that University of Barcelona Yaku?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth, nice to see you again :)
    Archmage Atlantis: To me, no one vision, is the "one"........many rooms in the mansion
    Pema Pera: morning, Druth!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: noke is studying there
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh well that seems the perfect setting to try to see people scrambling to see time... 'the big bang'
    Zen Arado: seemed a lot of Spanish influence
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know in how for open science is part of the university
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, she lives there

    The E8 TOE...

    Bleu Oleander: Pema, what are your thoughts on the E8 TOE?
    Zen Arado: would love to try that kind of art
    Bleu Oleander: one of the artists used that as his theme
    Pema Pera: E8 TOE? what is that?
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Eliza Madrigal: :) 100_2777.jpg
    Pema Pera: exceptional lie group
    Pema Pera: yes, very interesting indeed!
    Kiki Walpanheim: hi druth, yakuzza and all
    Archmage Atlantis: lie group, interesting
    Zen Arado: hi astroboy
    Zen Arado: Hi Kiki
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi kiki,druth
    astroboy Bigboots: hay~
    Yakuzza Lethecus: astroboy
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi astroboy, glad to see you again too
    Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Zen
    Pema Pera: hi Kiki!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kiki, I'll give you a note about the group. Welcome :))
    Kiki Walpanheim: Hi Pema, eliza, thank you eliza

    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.andyross.net/e8_lisi.htm  (TOE reference)
    Pema Pera: E8 is a very interesting group, mathematically speaking . . . but hard to summarize in a simple way
    Bleu Oleander: Garrett Lisi?
    Bleu Oleander: was he the one who came up with this theory?
    Pema Pera: several people, in various ways, but I don't know the detail

    Bleu Oleander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Garrett_Lisi
    Archmage Atlantis: Not so difficult for at theoritical mathematian
    Archmage Atlantis: Or one who stand outside a bit
    Bleu Oleander: It was a very interesting art show
    Eliza Madrigal: This is the first I've heard of this, Blue. Thanks :)


    Pema Pera: Thanks for the note card, Blue!
    Pema Pera: Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: fun opportunites there for "Art of Being" photographs !!
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm interested to know how people are choosing their snapshots of 'time'... I didn't see if there is a notecard feature with the photos?
    Eliza Madrigal: Or I guess we can share in sessions...
    Bleu Oleander: the idea was to share in a special session
    Bleu Oleander: you could put a notecard with your photo if you want :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay, great. The whole project is like metaphors in metaphors... views in views... really fascinating
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Bleu Oleander: it has forced me to think about how I think about time :)
    astroboy Bigboots: how's so?
    Eliza Madrigal: Say more?

    Bleu Oleander: I see time as less linear than I used to
    astroboy Bigboots: Groovy.
    Bleu Oleander: more integrated
    Bleu Oleander: definitely hard to photograph!!
    Bleu Oleander: I thought I knew what time was until I tried to define it
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes quite groovy, and hm...yes how does one photograph something integrated with so much else and somehow see/ spotlight it?
    Archmage Atlantis: Ain't no use to try to understand

    Bleu Oleander: well that's just it .... you end up photographing everything

    Pema Pera: yes, time is definitely a mystery . . . .
    Pema Pera: you can't hold it in your hand
    Pema Pera: time holds your hand in its hand :)
    Bleu Oleander: yes!
    Kiki Walpanheim: hi zen (sorry I missed a few lines when reading the chat)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: np :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So what *have* you been able to see, Bleu? Or maybe "What has time shown you?"
    Zen Arado: E8 visualization: http://www.aimath.org/E8/mcmullen.html

    Pema Pera: pretty, Zen!
    Bleu Oleander: i've been able to sense that being and spacetime is an inticate weave
    Zen Arado: rather complex
    Archmage Atlantis: The seeing is old, the ways of seeing have evolved
    Eliza Madrigal: yes quite a web
    Pema Pera: yes, Being and Time are definitely two of the biggest mysteries . . . .
    Bleu Oleander: it's not a clear seeing .... more like a sensing
    Bleu Oleander: being sensing being as time

    Pema Pera: the key is perhaps being seen, rather than seeing . . . .

    Bleu Oleander: still working on my photos though so more to come i'm sure!
    Eliza Madrigal: mmm, and that sense of integration seems a real pointer somehow...
    Eliza Madrigal: Please go on, Pema?
    Archmage Atlantis: Pema.. u are the most seen in this place


    Pema Pera: well, in general, when we go beyond concepts, the best we can do, as long as "we" are "we", is to watch carefully how we don't go beyond concepts, how we fall back :-)

    Eos said it very nicely recently:

    "Re "how to get there": perhaps just noticing how we leave there is sufficient"

    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, hard to miss Pema with his long red hair, Arch :)
    Pema Pera: (that was Eos talking about wu-wei)
    Eliza Madrigal: Might this tie into sacredness somehow too... one might ask themselves 'what does time value" or hm...

    Pema can't seem to help writing poetry...

    Pema Pera:

    all is sacred . . . . .
    in its lack of intrinsic existence
    a playful appearance

    Eliza Madrigal: and time seems to move differently when we're attentive
    Archmage Atlantis: i accept that Pema
    Zen Arado: According to [Ken], the text contains exactly six words; the two English translations given in the following table are both attributed to him.

    Six Words of Advice
    from Tilopa

    Don't recall.                            Let go of what has passed.                             mi mno
    Don't imagine.                        Let go of what may come.                              mi bsam
    Don't think.                            Let go of what is happening now.                    mi shes
    Don't examine.                       Don't try to figure anything out.                      mi dpyod
    Don't control.                          Don't try to make anything happen.                 mi sgom
    Rest.                                      Relax, right now, and rest.                             rang sar bzhag

    Zen Arado: found that this morning
    Archmage Atlantis: :)
    Pema Pera wondering at the comet that passed by :-)
    Pema Pera: yes, very nice, TIlopa
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Pema Pera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilopa#Six_Words_of_Advice

    Archmage Atlantis: Our children shall be the universe
    Archmage Atlantis: Thanks be there is a multi-verse
    Eliza Madrigal: Tilopa seems familiar with wu wei :) Everything taking place, in rest
    Pema Pera: I find those six words amazing to work with
    Pema Pera: new depth each time I look :)
    Zen Arado: think I do the opposite to that advice most of the time
    Eliza Madrigal: I think it was Calvino who made a kind of parallel to the sense of Genesis... all this activity and resting on the 7th day... appreciation/sense of goodness....
    Eliza Madrigal: without looking at things as 'beliefs' there is surely poetic inspiration there

    Wu Wei leads into a discussion of Tao...

    Pema Pera: it's interesting isn't it, 5 don'ts and one do
    Zen Arado: and the 'do' is non doing
    Archmage Atlantis: There is only do
    Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
    Pema Pera: you can of course rephrase the 6th one also in a don't --- don't run around, don't dissipate
    Kiki Walpanheim: that's why taoism is for soothing souls , and confucianism is for the more ambitious when everything is going well
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Kiki
    Kiki Walpanheim: because wu-wei is quite taoist
    Pema Pera: yes, it comes from Taoism
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, the way of the tao
    Archmage Atlantis: I know of it
    Kiki Walpanheim: the chinese scholars in history changed betweetn taoism and confucianism as their belief when they were in up and downs of life
    Zen Arado: interesting
    Archmage Atlantis: Beliefs evolve
    Eliza Madrigal: I've seen that pattern in myself too ... amazing how we sort of 'forget' things that seem so obvious at various points :)

    Kiki Walpanheim: I personally agree to that idea of wu wei sometimes
    Kiki Walpanheim: especially when dealing with friendship, and the things untractable about my destiny
    Pema Pera: how do you see the world, Kiki?
    Pema Pera: if I may ask :-)


    Pema Pera: as a general question
    Bleu Oleander: (big question)
    Kiki Walpanheim: I think some things are not to be changed by me....and they happen for a reason
    Kiki Walpanheim: a reason i dont understand.... about the sublime
    Pema Pera: may I ask how you feel/sense the sublime?
    Archmage Atlantis: And, Kiki,, If you were charged with the sublime
    Archmage Atlantis: to evidence in RL
    Archmage Atlantis: What would you choose?
    astroboy Bigboots: what is the sublime is about chance?
    Kiki Walpanheim: just for things I can't comprehend, or I can't handle....maybe they happen for a reason....maybe i need to listen to what the arrangement is
    astroboy Bigboots: like how the dice works :P
    Pema Pera: yes, I think that is a great way to approach what is happening
    druth Vlodovic: makes me think of the serenity prayer
    Archmage Atlantis: To me. yes, Bog
    Eliza Madrigal: ah, about seeing and listening, going with at times, rather than guiding...

    Pema Pera: learning to listen is a great adventure
    Pema Pera: everyday something totally new . . . .

    Kiki Walpanheim: well science is like replacing the untractable important problems with tractable unimportant ones
    Pema Pera: ;-)
    Pema Pera: yes, it often seems that way

    Pema Pera: yet, the method of science, not believing and not disbelieving, may be powerful, even when approaching the sublime

    Kiki Walpanheim: being trained in science/engineering all these years,
    Zen Arado: though the unimportant may turn to be important
    Kiki Walpanheim: yes
    Bleu Oleander: i think individuals do, not science as such
    Pema Pera: ah, your background is in science/engineering, Kiki?
    Kiki Walpanheim: yes
    Kiki Walpanheim: they dont help me to answer loads of questions
    Bleu Oleander: what helps you?
    Kiki Walpanheim: I don't know....
    Pema Pera: the facts of science don't, but perhaps the method can inspire
    Kiki Walpanheim: I thought maybe philosophy could help some
    Kiki Walpanheim: nods....perhaps
    Pema Pera: the way of exploring in a free and open way
    Bleu Oleander: yes
    Zen Arado: I got disillusioned with that too.....
    Eliza Madrigal: a difference between sacredness and religiousness, ie mysticism and 'beliefs' often seems to be that the later sometimes loses the sense of daring curiosity that science (maybe ideally) values... like a risk taking
    Archmage Atlantis: I did not intend to speak again,
    Bleu Oleander: too many questions to rely on any one method of investigation perhaps
    Zen Arado: 'answers' might not be what we should be looking for?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Elisa, all that is is sacred
    Zen Arado: answers only provisional
    Bleu Oleander: maybe it's about the quest for answers, not the answers
    Archmage Atlantis: faminem war bi ============to0 mmwny
    Zen Arado: or springboards to the next big questions
    Zen Arado: yes Bleu
    Pema Pera: have you studied taoism a bit, Kiki, if I may ask?
    Kiki Walpanheim: yes
    Kiki Walpanheim: I studied Taoist literature in ancient chinese
    Pema Pera: lucky you!
    Pema Pera: including the Tao Te Tjing?
    Archmage Atlantis: omg, my RL company left with me here at the desk
    Kiki Walpanheim: some excerpts in each of some taoist books
    Eliza Madrigal quietly excuses herself. Thank you everyone :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Have to go
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eliza
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: bye Eliza
    Kiki Walpanheim: some from tao te ching


    Pema Pera: 道 可 道 , 非 常 道 。 名 可 名 , 非 常 名
    Bleu Oleander: gtg ... cu ... have a great day !
    Yakuzza Lethecus: take care bleu
    Pema Pera: bye Bleu!
    druth Vlodovic: bye
    druth Vlodovic: I suppose you might ask what you want your answers for (their purpose)
    Zen Arado: bye Bleu
    Zen Arado: I better go too
    Zen Arado: bue everyone
    Pema Pera: bye Zen!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye zen
    druth Vlodovic: cya
    Pema Pera: yes, Druth, good question!
    Kiki Walpanheim: bye zen
    Kiki Walpanheim: 道 is Tao
    Pema Pera: yes, or way/road/path
    Kiki Walpanheim: and in this context, the meaning of tao is not to be summarized in one word for translation....
    Pema Pera: yes
    Kiki Walpanheim: perhpas the whole interpretation of taoism lies here
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: the path that can be "pathed" is not the true path . . .
    druth Vlodovic: or "journey" perhaps
    Pema Pera: that's a different word, I think

    Kiki Walpanheim: it contains meaning like, the way how everything works
    Kiki Walpanheim: the way how the world works....
    Pema Pera: yes, like in English, "way" can be quite broad
    Pema Pera: literal and metaphorical
    Kiki Walpanheim: nods
    Pema Pera: it's beautiful, the brevity of chinese characters . . . very evocative
    Pema Pera: "way can way not true way"
    Kiki Walpanheim: heh heh
    Pema Pera: "name can name not true name"

    Pema Pera: much nicer than saying philosophically "go beyond concepts!"
    Kiki Walpanheim: well....the way everything works could be understood, but not in the usual way we think it should be.....
    Kiki Walpanheim: a better translation , i think
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: we think too literally, most of the time, in terms of concepts/names/judgments
    Kiki Walpanheim: and the name is better be interpreted as...fame
    Kiki Walpanheim: ty
    Pema Pera: interesting connection!
    Pema Pera: famous fame is not true fame :-)
    Kiki Walpanheim: fame , fortune can be chased, but not in the usual way as how we think they are....the second sentence

    Pema Pera: yes, if we open up, we don't have to chase, it's already there
    Kiki Walpanheim: 道 名 both are nouns at the first place, then verbs in the second occurance
    Pema Pera: yes, that's so nice about Chinese!
    Kiki Walpanheim: ;)
    Kiki Walpanheim: one clause from taoism was once my status message in my IM
    Pema Pera: which one?
    Kiki Walpanheim: i am trying to find a proper english translation
    Kiki Walpanheim: i rememebered it in chinese...
    Kiki Walpanheim: the translation is something like....
    Kiki Walpanheim: heaven and eath are not humane/benevolent.....it leaves everything be, to grow, and to perish........
    druth Vlodovic: :) I always get in trouble with people when I say stuff like that
    Pema Pera: 谷 神 不 死 , 是 谓 玄 牝 。
    Kiki Walpanheim: ;/ welll i understand my translation definitely ruins the beauty of the original
    druth Vlodovic: I wasn't disagreeing
    Pema Pera: 天 地 不 仁 , 以 万 物 为 刍 狗
    Kiki Walpanheim: yes, that is
    Kiki Walpanheim: the last one
    Pema Pera: 圣 人 不 仁 , 以 百 姓 为 刍 狗
    Kiki Walpanheim: nods
    Pema Pera: yes, sorry, I copied the wrong one the first time :-)
    Kiki Walpanheim: ;)
    Pema Pera: yes, that is really profound
    Pema Pera: to go beyond duality that way

    Pema Pera: Here is one translation: The Tao doesn't take sides; it gives birth to both good and evil. The Master doesn't take sides; she welcomes both saints and sinners.
    Kiki Walpanheim: nods

    Kiki Walpanheim: “the Daoist idea here is not negative but positive, for it means that Heaven and Earth are impartial, have no favorites, and are not humane in a deliberate or artificial way.”
    Pema Pera: (I don't speak Chinese, but I have learned Japanese, so I can more or less understand some of the writing)
    Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)
    druth Vlodovic: hmm, I prefer kiki's translation better it doesn't imply the existence of something we need to judge everything by
    druth Vlodovic: :-)
    Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)

    Pema Pera: yes, "giving birth" is not such a good term
    Kiki Walpanheim: yes, values, meaning, even moral stantards are inquired by ourselves, not to be set by anything superior to us
    druth Vlodovic: well, I meant the dichotomies, good & evil, saints & sinners,
    Pema Pera: did you learn some form of Taoist meditation too, Kiki?
    druth Vlodovic: judging, weighing, "ought to" bleh
    Kiki Walpanheim: I am not so sure aobut the idea myself tho...but it is quite taoist, and it makes sense.......taoist meditation? i dont think so

    Pema Pera: the challenge is always how to apply these ideas to everyday life . . . .
    Pema Pera: and some form of meditation may help, to prevent the ideas from just staying ideas

    Kiki Walpanheim: nods
    Kiki Walpanheim: when i am overwhelmed with things i can't handle, ii turn to taoism...
    Pema Pera: what we do here in our group, in RL mostly, is to take very short breaks, just a few seconds every fifteen minutes, to remind ourselves of the openness -- of the Tao, or whatever you like to call it
    Pema Pera: yes, the Tao is a great refuge
    Kiki Walpanheim: it's about let things be......

    Pema Pera: 治 大 国 , 若 烹 小 鲜 。
    Pema Pera: Governing a large country is like frying a small fish.


    Kiki Walpanheim: heh heh.....ruling a nation is like cooking tiny fish
    Kiki Walpanheim: the translation
    Pema Pera: yes, and ruling ourselves is similar :-)
    Kiki Walpanheim: the tiny fish can't take too much up and downs in a hot oil pot
    Kiki Walpanheim: or they would get burned
    Pema Pera: and neither can we :)
    Kiki Walpanheim: ;-)
    Pema Pera: well, I have to go to bed now; I'm in Kyoto, Japan, and it's almost 1 am here
    Kiki Walpanheim: this way, it is kinda anarchist
    Pema Pera: nice to meet you Kiki!
    Kiki Walpanheim: good night
    Kiki Walpanheim: nice to meet you too!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night pema
    druth Vlodovic: good night Pema
    Pema Pera: yes, it has a distinctly anarchist feeling, in a very nice way!
    Pema Pera: nice meeting you too, druth!
    Pema Pera: and good seeing you again, Yaku
    druth Vlodovic: anarchist? more a call for calm in all circumstances I'd think
    Kiki Walpanheim: ruling a nation is like cooking tiny fish
    Yakuzza Lethecus: druth: you don´t speak chinese either right ? :)

    Kiki Walpanheim: so not to make the fish in the hot pot be played with too much

    druth Vlodovic: not a bit :(
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, kiki needs to teach us :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
    Kiki Walpanheim: but it is only my own interpretation on that clause ;-)

    druth Vlodovic: "don't poke stuff" I got that...
    Kiki Walpanheim: heh heh

    From here there was a bit of discussion about personal geography and such... snipped, as requested, from the log. :)

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