2010.07.09 01:00 - Miracles and serendipities

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session.


    Wol Euler: hello zaldaan

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Wol

    Zaldaan Sirnah: How are you?

    Wol Euler: mostly ok, thanks, and yourself?

    Zaldaan Sirnah: fine fine

    Wol Euler smiles.

    Wol Euler: if this were RL your body language would say otherwise :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: that's mostly how I look in RL too... except when people are around I tend to hold my head up and the distraction hides the mood

    Wol Euler: hmmmm

    Wol Euler: but the mood is there to be hidden?

    Wol Euler: what's on your mind?

    Wol Euler: (if it's not personal)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Maybe it's people-deficiency ;)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: but otherwise, I wouldn't mind sharing normally in private.

    Wol Euler nods

    Wol Euler: hello arch, you're up late or very early

    Archmage Atlantis: Very early , Wol

    Wol Euler: how are you?

    Archmage Atlantis: Hello, btw......and hello Zaldaan

    Archmage Atlantis: I am improving

    Wol Euler: good

    Archmage Atlantis: yes, it is good

    Zaldaan Sirnah: helloo

    Archmage Atlantis: Every rough patch has it's end, as does every miracle *g*

    Wol Euler: true

    Wol Euler: I've found this more of a comfort than a sadness

    Wol Euler: in our happy moments we know that miracles are all around us, and that happiness will come again

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I don't know about the last part, except it might be a misunderstanding of "miracle".

    Zaldaan Sirnah: but the first part I confirm

    Wol Euler: but depression or deep sadness always feel as though they will last forever

    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, one needs comfort in good times and in bad times, as we are human and know that

    Wol Euler nods.

    Archmage Atlantis: I used miracle in an odd way, I meant it as an unusually good patch

    Wol Euler: which is how I took it :)

    Wol Euler: but extended it in my mind to serendipities

    Wol Euler: finding the perfect shoes on sale :)

    Wol Euler: somebody standing up to leave my favourite table as I approach the cafe

    Archmage Atlantis: Interesting word choice, Wol......serendipities

    Wol Euler: being reminded in conversation of a book I'd always meant to read, and seeing it on a bookstore shelf a moment later

    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that is a good example


    Wol Euler: these are close enough to miracles for me to be going on with :)

    Archmage Atlantis: Being aware that serendipities exist, even

    Wol Euler makes a deliberately provocative, but earnestly meant, statement: Insofar as miracles exist at all, they are as common as house dust, we just don't notice them.

    Zaldaan Sirnah: you know what's funny -- we think that all the little things that work normally... like according to fields, chemistry, etc... we think of them as non-miracles. Probably everything is based on the highest level of divinity we can imagine. Probably every single thing is a miracle.

    Wol Euler often wishes she could "emote" in RL conversations :)

    Wol Euler nods

    Archmage Atlantis: Nicely said, Zaldaan

    Zaldaan Sirnah: thanks, apparently I might be being recorded forever so I can't answer "how are you?" properly, but I can say these things. :)

    Wol Euler: I could edit the log ...

    Wol Euler: it happens.

    Zaldaan Sirnah: what's the present imperfect form, or whatever, I'm trying to use there?

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Wol, I'm okay for now -- many logs aren't online yet so I couldn't review those (the rest of June?)

    Wol Euler: I think it's right grammatically

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I'm okay with what's there at the present -- except Storm said he'd make one edit for me but I don't see it done. *shrug*

    Wol Euler: yeah, we are behind again. I usually update the missing ones on the weekends, but I've been too busy lately

    Wol Euler: remind him, or tell me. Send me an IM with the date and the change.

    Archmage Atlantis: I was hit with a wave of (I don't know what) when I suggested that the log could be edited the other day.......it has always been my experience that it could......but this person saw this as a forum for honesty in full

    Wol Euler: huh

    Zaldaan Sirnah: oh. Can I review them in advance? I am a bit concerned, especially since they're going in a wiki, and I have some sort of role or presence in this life, possibly, and yet I'm still learning and .. am concerned. It's tough to be responsible when you don't know how. :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: (once they're in the wiki, the original and edits are still there!)

    Wol Euler: yes, this is why it's best to make your wish for editing known *during* the session, so the GoC knows to do it right away

    Archmage Atlantis: Even rl is like that.....no real "do overs"

    Wol Euler: I could give you the URL to the raw log for this session, if you wish, you could review it and let me know what to cut.

    Wol Euler: true, but in RL ther is also mostly no permanent, publicly-available record

    Archmage Atlantis: True

    Wol Euler: that reminds me of something I was reading recently. The company that runs the World of Warfare online community forums is changing the privacy standards

    Archmage Atlantis: I am not certain the ability to conceal the process is good

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Archmage, I believe the learning experience here is that you may be logged ANYWHERE you talk, so let this be a lesson to you. I do NOT believe it's the intent of the group to expose people's intimacy, which they inadvertently leak ("logs" being unnatural to our untrained minds, just as people get used to cameras and begin acting according to their nature, forgetting.)

    Wol Euler: also true. Many people record conversation, and some publish too. Not all tell people about htis and ask their permission

    Wol Euler: starting now, the WoW forums are going to identify participants by their RL names, not their character names inworld

    Wol Euler: (with the option to add the character name too)

    Wol Euler: several thousand people have quit the forums already, apparently

    Archmage Atlantis: WoW. )pun intended

    Wol Euler: yep

    Zaldaan Sirnah: no doubt

    Wol Euler: :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: interesting decision. Must be too much abuse of each other abusing the anonymity.

    Wol Euler: the common assumption is that Blizzard thinks this will force people to behave nicely rather than flaming each other obscenely

    Wol Euler: but the common belief is that this is false. Flamers will continue to flame because they don't give a rat's arse what other people think of them, under any name.

    Archmage Atlantis: Nice idea, won't work, but nice idea

    Wol Euler: what will happen is that the nice people will drop out

    Wol Euler: (as they are doing)


    Archmage Atlantis: Now there is a topic, what constitutes a "nice"person

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I don't know about WoW

    Zaldaan Sirnah: don't know what it is

    Archmage Atlantis: WoW is an online game

    Wol Euler: it's an online multiplayer world, but it's about killing

    Wol Euler: it's a traditional game in that there are levels and experience points and weapons to find/buy/win etc etc

    Wol Euler: but social in that some tasks require players to band together cooperatively

    Archmage Atlantis: It is, at it's core, a justification of why killing is just

    Wol Euler nods

    Wol Euler: I get tired of such games really quickly

    Wol Euler: the constant murdering starts to pall

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Archmage, I haven't discovered that yet.

    Archmage Atlantis: You will ........

    Archmage Atlantis: Then you will have decisions to make

    Zaldaan Sirnah: That is, play killing. It feels good to carelessly tear apart or beat up a tree and such sometimes -- get the muscles working in a carefree way without concern about the best interest of the object of focus. There are endorphines and pleasure related distinct from ordinary exercise.

    Archmage Atlantis: Yeppers, same principle

    Wol Euler: I think that any of us is capable of killing (given the right circumstance and the right motivation)

    Wol Euler: most people just don't *want* to, fortunately

    Zaldaan Sirnah: So the play-violence -- games of children -- are an expansion of the same. So with what you said I'm trying to imagine a completely non-violent time where it's removed entirely from thought processes. That is, when the "core" is changed, and not just addressed or corrected.

    Zaldaan Sirnah: That is to say, if you were to raise children so any and all acts of violence are completely discouraged.

    Wol Euler ponders.

    Archmage Atlantis: That would only make the child more likely to let that violence go somewhere else,........violence is part of us

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Your kid frowns, you tell him that's wrong. And of course you do that in a special way, because you yourself have been "purified" of that negativity.

    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow

    Archmage Atlantis: Our minds give us a way to manage it

    Zaldaan Sirnah: That's what I mean, if you can change the core so it's not a part of it, vs. treating it as in these last examples.

    Wol Euler: so you teach your child to repress his emotions?

    Wol Euler: I don't like the flavour of that

    Zaldaan Sirnah: no you're interpretting in your own way

    Wol Euler: probably :)

    Archmage Atlantis: I like the word flavour

    Wol Euler: but "Your kid frowns, you tell him that's wrong" seems pretty un-ambiguous to me.

    Zaldaan Sirnah: of course, at such an advanced stage (if it is), the parent would guide the child properly at each stage, with full understanding of what to do with "it".

    Wol Euler: hello cal

    Zaldaan Sirnah: right -- the "tell him that it's wrong" is the corrective method -- that's what people do now, except I'm backing it up a bit earlier and more strict.

    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya, Cal

    Zaldaan Sirnah: so, again, I'm pointing out the core being corrected, vs. this type of "post" correction

    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

    Calvino Rabeni: Arch

    Archmage Atlantis: I think we have the points of the compass covered :)

    Wol Euler: did you mean to use frowning as an example of unacceptable behaviour?

    Calvino Rabeni: wol, Zal :)

    Wol Euler: (because there are parents who try to forbid their children any emotion but happiness, and any expression but laughter)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: yes, back up violence, aggression, anger, hatred, and even frustration, to a very delicate point, where you then correct and redirect the underlying function so that energy is properly directed.

    Wol Euler: the wife of someone I deal with professionally is one such, it distresses me terribly to see her with her kids

    Archmage Atlantis: And parents are just big children......grandparents get closer to understanding

    Wol Euler: that feels true, arch :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Wisdom skips generations

    Wol Euler nods

    Zaldaan Sirnah: when my puppy gets frustrated that I don't do something, he goes and plays with his toys (somewhat violently).. so people say "he gets out his frustration", and it's an interesting phenomenon because it's not directed at me -- he comes back to me happy.

    Archmage Atlantis: It doesn't.....it just takes time to develop

    Calvino Rabeni: Parents are too young to mentor their children

    Wol Euler: and too directly involved, too

    Calvino Rabeni: yes

    Wol Euler nods to zaldaan

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Society is too undeveloped overall for that, Calvino. Spirituality, religion, and science are not yet unified openly (except to a few that is).

    Wol Euler: in theory I agree, but in practice I think that the majority of people have neither the insight into themselves nor the desire to spend that much time and energy


    Calvino Rabeni: why should the parents do it all... their job is the material wellbeing of the children, and that's a full time proposition... the spiritual load needs to be shared

    Archmage Atlantis: Well said, Cal

    Wol Euler nods.

    Wol Euler: hello pema! this is an unexpected pleasure.

    Archmage Atlantis: Hello, Pema

    Pema Pera: Alas, I can stay only briefly, but at least I qanted to say hi :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Wol Euler: is this breakfast time?

    Pema Pera: (slow connection in a coffeeshop, on my way to dinner, in Kyoto)

    Wol Euler: ah

    Wol Euler: oh, right, yes.

    Calvino Rabeni: greetings Pema

    Wol Euler: hello paradise

    Pema Pera: Hi Paradise!

    Calvino Rabeni: Good mornng, Para :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: The way I understand it is that there are actual laws which govern our beings. This is presented in principles, like the manifestation of "messengers" in every population

    Wol Euler: we were talking about non-violence (in the broadest of terms, emotion as well as physical acts) and child-raising

    Archmage Atlantis: Hello foggy cloud that everyone else is calling Paradise :)

    Wol Euler: (brb, rl intrudes)

    Pema Pera: big topic!

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I think of it in terms of physics, myself.

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Then there's knowledge "put" into that being -- but that being is not limited, being based on a principle, and thus that identity is related to others as well.

    Paradise Tennant: smiles ahh the advantages of waking up in the middle of the nite ..hello pema wol cal arch zaldeen

    Zaldaan Sirnah: Therefore, the system naturally provides this guidance through these focal points.

    Pema Pera: ah yes, 5 am for you, right?

    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes pls do not let me interrupt the flow of discussion :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: If you defocus and imbalance the identity it becomes someone who's focussed on something else.. but if you centralize and purify it it becomes, say, the prophet.

    Archmage Atlantis: A friend once told me that to prophesy is to tell the truth.......it is also a challenge to other's understanding of truth

    Zaldaan Sirnah: maybe the silence bell went off :)

    Paradise Tennant: think truth has a very broad spectrum :)

    Archmage Atlantis: I my mind, the time of prophets has passed, we are each our own to measure

    Zaldaan Sirnah: it still happens -- messengers. It's a law.

    Calvino Rabeni: That may be one "true" way to look at things Arch

    Archmage Atlantis: Serendipity still happens, yes

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we looked at serendipity in the previous session ...

    Wol Euler: back, reading

    Paradise Tennant: nods at cal ... meaning without the causal links :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the idea is - indirect causal links, not no causal links

    Paradise Tennant: yes links we do not readily perceive

    Calvino Rabeni: like e.g. my two hands are related, work to gether, but do not have a causal relationship between them

    Paradise Tennant: there is a deeper meaning there in terms of interconnectedness

    Calvino Rabeni: it is their association via larger structures

    Pema Pera: (sorry for the short stay -- have to take off again, hope to stay longer next time)

    Calvino Rabeni: Come again, Pema :)

    Paradise Tennant: take care pema ;) namaste

    Wol Euler: bye pema, bon appetit.

    Archmage Atlantis: Have some soba noodle for me, Pema :)

    Wol Euler: hehe


    Archmage Atlantis: Isn't there a show tune that fits here?.........I can't think of one, maybe "Clang, clang, clang went the trolley"

    Zaldaan Sirnah: It seems like, if I delete what I was saying, I should have sent it. :/

    Wol Euler: :)

    Paradise Tennant: smiles

    Archmage Atlantis: Don't delete it Zal, it sparked a good discussion

    Wol Euler: agreed

    Archmage Atlantis: My opinion only, your choice

    Calvino Rabeni: Have you heard of Littlewood's Law?

    Wol Euler: not yet :)

    Paradise Tennant: ?

    Archmage Atlantis: not I

    Calvino Rabeni: Someone was thinking about the probability of low probability events occurring

    Calvino Rabeni: which is pretty high, actually guaranteed

    Calvino Rabeni: it went like this

    Calvino Rabeni: define a "miracle" as an event that only has a 1 in a million chance of happening

    Calvino Rabeni: then make some assumptions about how many "events" a person experiences

    Paradise Tennant: each of us here ?

    Calvino Rabeni: arbitrarily - one per second some very trivial

    Calvino Rabeni: just what the mind can kind of notice

    Calvino Rabeni: and make assumptins about how much time a person is awake per day

    Wol Euler nods and smiles

    Calvino Rabeni: based on those assmptions, there are about one million "events" every month

    Calvino Rabeni: therefore, the average person should experience a "miracle" about once a month

    Wol Euler nods and points to her earlier statement

    Paradise Tennant: smiles

    Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littlewood%27s_law

    Wol Euler: [1:17] Wol Euler makes a deliberately provocative, but earnestly meant, statement: Insofar as miracles exist at all, they are as common as house dust, we just don't notice them.

    Calvino Rabeni: exactly.

    Paradise Tennant: nods and smiles yes !

    Zaldaan Sirnah: No offence but I think it begins on a shaky foundation. Some speculation and philosophy is nearly utterly useless except if your neurons want some time spent exercising their plasticity (which is not useless).

    Wol Euler: given that we will all die within an absurdly short span of time (geologically speaking) all that we might do is absurd.

    Archmage Atlantis: Please define what foundation you are using, Zal

    Wol Euler: but still the *doing* of it is worthwhile, because it gives our ridiculously short lives some content and perhaps meaning

    Calvino Rabeni: "perhaps" meaning?

    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I'm sorry -- I don't want to take the fun and play out of it. One thing that is stable is that kids play right?

    Calvino Rabeni: Where would *that* come from ... and on what basis would we decide its "quantity" ?

    Zaldaan Sirnah: should be a comma in there.

    Archmage Atlantis: m

    Wol Euler smiles and nods. I'm sorry if my tone was too sharp

    Archmage Atlantis: most children interact in what adults call play, agree

    Calvino Rabeni: and what adults call adults play is rather narrow compared to what play might mean ?

    Paradise Tennant: sometimes .play is a relative term ..much of what we do as adults is play too we just take it too seriously


    Calvino Rabeni: In that sense, Play would be defined as any activity that has more degrees of freedom than required to accomplish some predefined objective

    Archmage Atlantis: I admire your ability to engage in this barrage of other thought, Zal, that is a wonderful quality

    Paradise Tennant: smiles never thought of it quite in those terms cal :)

    Wol Euler: play is activity that is taken seriously while being done, but whose end-product is not taken seriously

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I don't understand your compliment. :)

    Archmage Atlantis: Well, at least you see it as a complement, that is enuf

    Archmage Atlantis: Back to play

    Calvino Rabeni: Given that we're not solving any problems here, or directly managing our survival, then what we do here constitutes Play

    Wol Euler: agreed

    Archmage Atlantis: Agree Cal, not in an active way

    Calvino Rabeni: And from an instrumental point of view, it's pretty "useless"

    Archmage Atlantis: Could be

    Wol Euler: there I disagree

    Wol Euler: it is as useful as dreaming, perhaps. Its use is in recharging and relaxing - and reconsidering

    Calvino Rabeni: In fact, I was thinking, that by and large, the significance of awareness is breakdown and failure

    Paradise Tennant: smiles ..back to bed :) thanks for the conversation .. going to trundle back to dream of miracles and house dust :) namaste wol, arch, cal zaldaan )

    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

    Calvino Rabeni: Paradise

    Archmage Atlantis: bye Paradise

    Wol Euler: bye paradise, sleep well

    Archmage Atlantis: The 4 points of the compass remain......for the moment

    Wol Euler smiles.

    Wol Euler: my dears, I will need to go to work soon. Please continue.

    Calvino Rabeni: OK Wol :) Forget what I said before

    Wol Euler: eh?

    Archmage Atlantis: It is time for me to go also

    Calvino Rabeni: Don't worry, be happy :)

    Archmage Atlantis: Isn't that a song, Cal?

    Wol Euler: :)

    Wol Euler: take care, my dears.


    Archmage Atlantis: Via con Dios,Wol

    Wol Euler: bye for now

    Archmage Atlantis: bye...and Bye

    Zaldaan Sirnah: I'm heading elsewhere too. Take care Calvino :)

    Calvino Rabeni: I'm off, also, bye Zal and Log

    Calvino Rabeni: Take care :)

    Zaldaan Sirnah: interesting departure today :)

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