2010.07.11 19:00 - Goldilocks and the Three Levels of Listening

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.
    The main themes of this session are discernment, choice, contemplation, listening, communication, and community.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening, Calvino, Koya.
    Calvino Rabeni: H, everyone
    Archmage Atlantis: God choice Mitzi, well thought out
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... what is?
    Archmage Atlantis: Your choice or where to sit
    Archmage Atlantis: I used to study business meetings
    Archmage Atlantis: The choice of where one sits tells much
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, I did contemplate it for a bit before sitting down ...
    Calvino Rabeni: What can you read of this configuration, arch?
    Archmage Atlantis: smiles, I saw
    Archmage Atlantis: That Calvino does not oppose me, that he does not agree with me,,,,,,that you had to decide if it was worth sitting between to offer something
    Archmage Atlantis: Is that close?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well ... considering the choices ... I could sit next to Cal on either side, or next to you on either side. Cal is a friend in RL, and you are a new person to me ...I thought to not sit RIGHT next to Calvino, because it seemed a little too exclusive for the group vibe. So I chose kind of between, but closer to Calvino. Not sure about the right side, left side aspect though ...
    Archmage Atlantis: That was a well thought out answer
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: If I could have been exactly half way between, that would have been my reference. But, this was the best choice considering uneven spacing.
    Archmage Atlantis: Smile.....Cal is worth sitting closer to *g*


    Archmage Atlantis: I can be a difficult pesona
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't know I thought it out in advance, kind of intuitive decision .. then the explanation took more time to put into words.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Smile. Indeed.
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni takes a deep breath not considering it as speaking during the bell period
    Archmage Atlantis: the bell is only a reminder, not a rule
    Archmage Atlantis: ding
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oooh! I hope I get a demonsration tonight! (of your difficult persona). Liven things up!
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya cal ..mitzi .. arch :))
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hey Paradise, nice to meet you again.
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello, Paradise
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni looks for secret fractal patterns in Paradise's holo-skirt
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at arch :) who makes a surprisingly good bell :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Para :)
    Paradise Tennant: is not just great .. it is by eshiri :)
    Calvino Rabeni: What an interesting material
    Paradise Tennant: she does such interesting work .. feels like you are walking in art :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I can see that
    Archmage Atlantis: ok,
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Very pretty. It gives you an ethereal air ...
    Paradise Tennant: find it quite energizing :)
    Archmage Atlantis: have to shift to see
    Paradise Tennant: so mitzi how shall we liven things up :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I was wondering - does anyone have anything they'd like to report, about what happened this week?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, arch just moved right next to you ... how provocative!
    Archmage Atlantis: It has been an odd week, true
    Paradise Tennant: lol since the talk we had last about communicating with plants and trees I have beem much more attentive to the shrubbery :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: What does *that* say about meetings dynamics?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I was energized by confusion and annoyance at a friend's behavior. It spurred me to shake off some inertia and clarify myself.
    Paradise Tennant: listens
    Paradise Tennant: smiles hiya bleu :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bonjour bleu
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Bleu
    Calvino Rabeni: I had just proposed the question - does anyone have anything interesting to report about the last week?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Now I am all by myself over here. But that's OK I'll be an observer, it will help me maintain that stance.
    Archmage Atlantis: I expect the shrubbery might find that tem non-inclusive *g*
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, hi there! Now I feel better. And I can see your pretty fairy dress better!
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at mitzi :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Cal
    Archmage Atlantis: You got old and monk like
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Old?!?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: whispers (see, that Archmage is a big troublelmaker, or so I hear)
    Archmage Atlantis: His av
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a couple reports actually
    Calvino Rabeni: I went down to the beach at the lake about 6PM
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, just the av, well that's allright then. ha ha!
    Calvino Rabeni: I saw a man speaking to a group of children - he was saying...
    Calvino Rabeni: .. The Lifeguard asks that you do NOT throw rocks at the Swimmers. It is very dangerous! Thank you very much!"
    Calvino Rabeni: I found that to be an interesting, somewhat unusual event

    Calvino Rabeni: not quite qualifying near "miracle" level though
    Archmage Atlantis: listening
    Calvino Rabeni: It's interesting to see socialization in the process of being built
    Calvino Rabeni: to be reminded, it is not a given
    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Were the kids throwing rocks at the swimmers? If not, he may have just put the thought into their minds.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the had been doing that
    Calvino Rabeni: *they
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: well not so odd then
    Archmage Atlantis: It is not given, but it is enought a part of our DNA, that we re-evolve it
    Calvino Rabeni: Although it might have been *more* interesting for the lifeguard to give that warning if they boys had NOT been throwing rocks at the swimmers
    Calvino Rabeni: Good point Arch
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I have a question about shrubbery, but it seemed kind of trivial
    Calvino Rabeni: I wondered if Mitzi had more to say about learning from annoying people
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm funny how sometimes behaviour bothers us to the point we step into the breach with strangers :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, a matching comment there ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: My annoying person event was a catalyst for greater energetic self-responsibility.
    Bleu Oleander: (sorry, rl problem .... brb)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I had been more floating on the vibe of the moment. THen this person disrupted that. After a couple of days of uncomfortable musing, I gathered my oomph to realize I was being disrespected. Then I rose above my prior state of annoyance.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So it was an overall plus I guess.
    Paradise Tennant: anything that allows you to rise above your state is all good :)
    Calvino Rabeni: To a different state then
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes!
    Archmage Atlantis: Shrubbery
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm wondering whether the Goldilocks story as a parable, shows exemplary behavior or not
    Calvino Rabeni: Clearly Goldilocks was a chooser, of her various available experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: she didn't give up at the first bowl of porridge
    Paradise Tennant: smiles ...
    Calvino Rabeni: nor the second
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I would say it does show exemplary behavior.
    Archmage Atlantis: She was a cheap tart'

    Calvino Rabeni: Arch, people only say that if she ends up in someone else's bed :)
    Archmage Atlantis: She only would accept the best
    Archmage Atlantis: Uh, didn;t she>
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. she went with what suited her best .. it speaks to self knowledge :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah ... therefore she wasn't a cheap tart, but more discrinimating
    Paradise Tennant: to each .. there is a different song to sing so to speak :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and from one point of view, everyone who has a life partner, has ended up with Goldilocks in their bed
    Paradise Tennant: smiles well said Cal :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Oh, a selfish cheap tart, with delusions of grandeur
    Calvino Rabeni: because that person rejected the others too hot and too cold
    Calvino Rabeni: It's a kind of parable for the experiences we end up with
    Paradise Tennant: our choices :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe like the anthropic principle - life has arranged us to live on a planet that is not perfect, but basically not too hot or too cold
    Calvino Rabeni: we're made for each other
    Paradise Tennant: anthropic ?
    Archmage Atlantis: Cal, I have to go back......rejects those too cold, is rejected by those too hot....wow
    Calvino Rabeni: or anything we end up considering as "meaningful"
    Calvino Rabeni: is what's left after rejecting all that could have been, but didn't fit
    Archmage Atlantis: How about we match that person, at that time?
    Calvino Rabeni: How about it... love the one you're with?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles that is a good one :)
    Archmage Atlantis: It is useful
    Archmage Atlantis: Not an answer, but useful
    Calvino Rabeni: But still, even with that one person, the "match" would be only the happy medium, of everything they were potentially to be, and I was potentially able to appreciate
    Calvino Rabeni: so it's still a bit like Goldilocks' middle case
    Archmage Atlantis: Jilted lately Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: All that I am capable of, goes madly running toward all that the world is capable of, and the result is -- reality as it appears to me now :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Poor baby,
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and thinks goldilocks had it much better than little miss riding hood
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm actually quite pleased and amazed at that process
    Paradise Tennant: smiles a very good process
    Archmage Atlantis: Life has much more to throw at you, stick around, dude
    Calvino Rabeni: That seems to be a non-symmetrical relationship - the world seems much more capable of throwing, than I of catching
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm think we create our reality with our thoughts in good measure :) .. why there is such huge variance in subjective perception .. one person sees disaster another .. possiblitiies
    Calvino Rabeni: But that would be a handy thing, if I wanted to change things
    Archmage Atlantis: Yepper, when one is young
    Archmage Atlantis: Men are simple Paradise
    Archmage Atlantis: Even gay men
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at arch :)
    Paradise Tennant: we are all simple
    Paradise Tennant: in a fashion :) maybe men are simpler lol
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at arch
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, well I find quite a bit more *manifest* complexity in relating to gay men, overall, ... don't know if it is about them, or about my differences
    Calvino Rabeni: @para, don't know that we ought judge book by its cover :)
    Calvino Rabeni: but it would be tempting
    Paradise Tennant: well often I think people see differences that are not really .. they are constructs .. ultimately we are all made of pretty much the same stuff ..man woman .. whatever the orientation .. :)

    Archmage Atlantis: I rarely buy a book unless someone has taken the time to think about relating then book to it's cover
    Paradise Tennant: for some reason men are much better at figuring out how to program a vcr ..that is a self evident truth :))
    Archmage Atlantis: Hey Stevenaia
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello
    Paradise Tennant: we are talking of the differences between men and women :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: and as correllary to that paradise, male children do it best
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd in no way be comfortable to make gender generalizations based on outer appearances such as wardrobe, for example
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening Stevenaia... we have a nice crowd tonight ...!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Steve
    Calvino Rabeni: Somehow it went from the deeper meanings of the Goldilocks story, to whether men are simpletons
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Cal, you look like you have been busy with things
    Paradise Tennant: smiles :)))
    Calvino Rabeni: How's that, Steve?
    Archmage Atlantis: Um, you missed a turn, Cal
    stevenaia Michinaga: the website work
    stevenaia Michinaga: no small undertaking
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, so...
    stevenaia Michinaga: website work = vcr
    Calvino Rabeni: WB Mitzi
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Making generalizations is a tricky business ... on the one hand, there may be some usefulness in the generic shorthand ... but, on the other hand, it's such an invitation to perceptual laziness.
    stevenaia Michinaga: or general judgemental bias
    Paradise Tennant: well said mitzi :) very much so
    Calvino Rabeni: I think what matters, is what it invites you to investigate as a followup
    Archmage Atlantis: Traditional roles of men and women are simple.........entities/people are complex
    Calvino Rabeni: If it serves to express an "attitude", that usually doesn't go anywhere
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I propose that it's almost ALWAYS better to avoid making any kind of statement that includes a generalization about a group of people. It just doesn't lead to anything productive in terms of ral communication.
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if bias makes for a tradtion... or jsut the way things have been for a very long time
    Archmage Atlantis: Yea, rat communication is rought
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, if you tried to specify those traditional roles, it would turn out you'd have to write an exceedingly long specification, so I'm not so sure simplicity wouuld be find there either
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I usually wonder if , ehind the generalization, is something more personal that had recently h appened, that the person would like to express but doesn't feel safe enough to do so.
    Archmage Atlantis: giggles
    Calvino Rabeni: Probably a good general rule Mitzi
    Archmage Atlantis: I don't think I have ever used that word before
    Archmage Atlantis: giggles again
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: mmm hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: Also I know what you mean
    stevenaia Michinaga: intereting, when I originally came to Sl, I decided to be a woman because of my bias against men
    stevenaia Michinaga: then I relaized it was a generalization
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Paradise Tennant: giggles too :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well your avatar seems to express you have overcome that bias!
    Paradise Tennant: well I think .. for many it allows exploration of different parts of their nature :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (snickering slightly)
    stevenaia Michinaga: because it was a gift from a woman friend
    stevenaia Michinaga: snickers back
    Paradise Tennant: giggling and snickering :) hmm
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, everyone place tongue between lips and blow
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: thwibibiibldiybydydbbip
    Archmage Atlantis: Is that a raspberry?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Or a vuvuzula!
    stevenaia Michinaga: tough one to spell, thank you Arch for clearing that up
    Calvino Rabeni: Rasberries are bitter and seedy, so I'm not sure :)
    Archmage Atlantis: And Cal, I had such great plans for you.......oh well.......there will be another
    Archmage Atlantis: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Getting back to that important question about the Shrubbery ?
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: well as it happens I have over the last few days been touching plants .. err . trying to sense them .. with something other than my eyes
    Calvino Rabeni: Not to mention the Monty Python episode concerning them
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)P
    Paradise Tennant: my favourite one is the dead parrot sketch
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: I did that too, Paradise, with those small tree-like objects
    Archmage Atlantis: Ignoring Monty, yes? each plant has it's own vibe.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: it speaks with its own voice
    Calvino Rabeni: But what we call it is interesting
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

    Archmage Atlantis: I dislike seeing them sheered into formal shapes of obedience'
    Archmage Atlantis: I also dislike leaving them alone, to fight amoung themselves
    Paradise Tennant: smiles am the same way with dogs ..hence mine is rather ill behaved :)
    Paradise Tennant: you are a gardener arch :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Sort of like with children, and animals.........they need guidance, not control
    Archmage Atlantis: But it is easy to confuse the 2
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, is there significance that the words Bush and Shrub are basically the same sound (but in a different direction) referring to the same thing, but perhaps in a different way?
    Calvino Rabeni: And to ask the same question on a more abstract level, you have the identical pattern with the words Morph and Form
    Archmage Atlantis: Interesting thought, Cal,,,,,,but I think the Bush family has existed as bushes a long time.....never seeing what it is to be in a garden
    Calvino Rabeni: The way to answer that question would involve sensing ones "soma"
    Calvino Rabeni: which is the "I as a body"
    Paradise Tennant: soma?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, meaning "bodymind" - the unity, not the combination of traditional separate categories
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UbtcmjfKa8
    Paradise Tennant: the unity .. between body and mind
    Calvino Rabeni: so if I can sense the *meaning* of the word, e.g. "bush", along with the embodied feeling of uttering it, then that is an action of soma
    Calvino Rabeni: and it can be discovered, they actually are interwoven deeply
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: synesthesia ... kind of?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think in part, but synesthesia is about overlapping of different senses
    Paradise Tennant: laughs and pulls up wiki :)
    Paradise Tennant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
    Archmage Atlantis: Chuckes
    Archmage Atlantis: Nee, do your worst
    Paradise Tennant: this is can be demonstrated by some who see numbers as landscapes
    Paradise Tennant: smiles at arch :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: onomonapoeia ... there is an underlying common "shape" or form that's expressed in both the sound and the thing itself ...
    stevenaia Michinaga: sorry, getting lost in the "Argument sketch"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is a simple form
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y&feature=related
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Paradise ... seeing numbers as landscapes !! That notion fascinates me no end ...
    Calvino Rabeni: but there are deeper levels of semantics to sounds than just the word resembling the sound
    Calvino Rabeni: A soma isn't a body and it isn't a mind; it's the living process.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: like a "whole" as in system theory?

    Calvino Rabeni: Systems theory had been critiqued, depending on whether it allows the whole to dominate the parts or not
    Archmage Atlantis: Here, this is how it is, ....,,, , you say blue.......my mind sees blue.......you say go away, my mind sees blue, then approaching black dange
    Calvino Rabeni: Supposedly integrative theories are careful about that dynamic between parts and whole
    Archmage Atlantis: All tests are limited buy the testing instriments
    Paradise Tennant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Tammet
    Paradise Tennant: he wrote " born on a blue day" .. wonderful book - daniel tammet
    Calvino Rabeni: Some people see the world as fairly meaningless - or think they do. With others, it's the opposite - they see everything as meaningful and connected, or think they do.
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess I'm kind of a Goldilocks in that regard
    Calvino Rabeni: looking for "just right" amount of meaning
    Paradise Tennant: smiles kind of think there is a goldilocks in us all :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: hopefully!
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, you are at the point of decision, Cal;
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a male thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Paradise, interesting story about that savent
    Calvino Rabeni: *savant
    Paradise Tennant: very worthwhile reading the book .. it is compelling
    Calvino Rabeni: It makes me think, perhaps learning abilities for many kinds of people can be enhanced, if they become more aware of their soma and its participation in knowledge and learning
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I certainly thing that would be a great improvement to the educational system
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Women are born with this choice made for them
    Archmage Atlantis: They do not have a choice not to bear children
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: really?!??! I missed that memo!
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    stevenaia Michinaga: bed time, night all
    Paradise Tennant: nite steve dream well :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well it seems there's more choice for the women about bearing, then for the men
    Archmage Atlantis: I knew you would Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night Steve :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Good evening, stevenaia
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to ask, is it possible for things to be "too meaningful" - and is that similar to the question whether it's possible to have "too much information"?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: blinks .. and decides to sleep on that one :)))))))
    Calvino Rabeni: Art can be a good antidote to such questions
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni admires the skirt Paradise wears
    Paradise Tennant: good nite all .. thank you for the conversation :))
    Paradise Tennant: feels pretty swishy in it !
    Paradise Tennant: namaste cal .. mitzi arch .. cyu soon :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hard core now
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hey Paradise, be welll all week!
    Calvino Rabeni: I've got to get a skirt like that ! :)
    Archmage Atlantis: She will be, I forsee it
    Archmage Atlantis: Oy vey, gender is so flexible in SL.........

    Archmage Atlantis: A triangle
    Archmage Atlantis: I was doing to go to bed, but your choice Cal, interests me

    Editor's Note:  The Calvino avatar had assumed a female Form.

    Calvino Rabeni: It's interesting to me - although I don't personally understand it - that gender identity play seems one of the "killer apps" of Second Life
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ha! Very interesting.
    Calvino Rabeni: I suspect some PaB members would be pretty articulate about that question
    Archmage Atlantis: Hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not one of them
    Calvino Rabeni: I could only speculate from an external position
    Archmage Atlantis: That, is obvious
    Archmage Atlantis: I came to love a man, as I am a gay man, who prefers to be a woman......and women really, really turn me off sexually
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... what are we talking about now ...?
    Archmage Atlantis: gender Identity, I thought
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh!
    Calvino Rabeni: I was just wondering why playing with gender identities seems so compelling to many SL people
    Calvino Rabeni: Not that I think somehow it shouldn't
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Maybe because it's relatively easy to experiment with - just switch up your avatar and voila!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: And who isn't curious about how bieng a different gender might change ones' perspective?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, personally that does not affect me much - like I did switch 10 minutes ago
    Calvino Rabeni: I do find, there are some interesting things to do in RL
    Archmage Atlantis: My sister preferss to be male, as she thinks it gives her more authoritty
    Archmage Atlantis: I have tgo sign off......els my body will crash
    Calvino Rabeni: I was watching a couple different Japanese anime shows recently. One of them is simply obsessed with power. The other takes the complete opposite position in its drama.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah ha! I didn't notice, I was looking ellsewhere ...!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Arch (belatedly)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: (your gender switch I mean, Calvino!)

    Calvino Rabeni: I wanted to change the subject to that topic of Help.
    Calvino Rabeni: which doesn't actually seem unrelated to what we were talking about
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: oh, how boring (now)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... all right then ... how are they related?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, what can we do to sex it up ?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well, maybe go back to the monk outfit! NOthing like the unavailability to make one wonder ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: YOu are transforming before my eyes, very fascinating to watch. Like the incredible Hulk bursing out of his business suit!
    Calvino Rabeni: I thought the previous form was more "bursting" :)
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yeh, I guess, but rather modest clothing by SL standards
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, your avatar now seems all male EXCEPT the head and eyes still female ... oops they are changing now!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: PSYCH- ah - DEL - ic!!! Wow. Here comes the goatee.
    Calvino Rabeni: A bit uncanny
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Calvino as in dude with bike gloves and British cap ... welcome back.
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Where were we?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, gosh, pick your topic of the evening. It's been wide ranging.
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, the topic in my recent RL group meeting was "How sensitive is my hearing" by which, actually was meant Listening
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow, interesting topic.
    Calvino Rabeni: So in that topic there's gender sterotypes, relationships, and Help
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's a sorely lacking skills for almost all of us!
    Calvino Rabeni: And as Goldilocks, we can take our pick
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Go on then ... can you say a little more?
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I heard a group contemplate that topic for 2 hours
    Calvino Rabeni: through personal stories, not through philosophy

    Calvino Rabeni: There are many levels of that listening
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: personal stories can be the best way of all to get to the meaty stuff
    Calvino Rabeni: when people speak in such a circle, they speak into the listening that is provided by the others
    Calvino Rabeni: and in a sense, that listening, creates or draws the speaking
    Calvino Rabeni: true isn't it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah! yes. I believe it pulls things out of you which you may not have even known were there.
    Calvino Rabeni: yes - in a way it "blesses" those things
    Calvino Rabeni: allowing them to come out from the darkness
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I had expressed that to you before ... that when I speak in response (which is a little different than just speaking in a group, although maybe a lot of overlap) I hear myself say things and am as surprised as anybody when I hear them.
    Calvino Rabeni: If they were intense, it might be a kind of exorcism, but, this is the everyday easy version of that pehnomenon
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I don't know about exorcism - that implies a removal of something, rather than a flowing forth.
    Calvino Rabeni: Many of those anime episodes were about exorcism
    Calvino Rabeni: So it's interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: but I'm usually thinking about the"everyday" settings
    Calvino Rabeni: There's the power of the agreement of the group
    Calvino Rabeni: for example, in that group, they have accepted an agreement that there is a theme for the meeting, and take it on, in this case Listening
    Calvino Rabeni: and that better listening is a good thing
    Calvino Rabeni: So it is a kind of contemplation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I didn't know that was the theme?
    Calvino Rabeni: That was the them for the RL group I attended yesterday
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Oh, OK, got it. RL
    Calvino Rabeni: There's a topic, and a story told by a storyteller, then a circle of contemplation
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: There's just a rich , big bunch of energy in a group setting.
    Calvino Rabeni: The derivation of the word Contemplation has lots of clues in it, about the process
    Calvino Rabeni: Energy moves within a container - A kind of form, or "machine" maybe
    Calvino Rabeni: the word Contemplation - I read this first from a book "Tea Here Now" which I think you know, but then did some more looking
    Calvino Rabeni: Con = together
    Calvino Rabeni: and Temple or Template
    Calvino Rabeni: meaning a place in which things can be measured
    Calvino Rabeni: with the archaic meaing of Augury
    Calvino Rabeni: which was looking for the meaning of something, with a view towards the growth of nourishment
    Calvino Rabeni: Augment, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: Originally used to find out how to have a good crop season
    Calvino Rabeni: But later, abstracted, it means, creating a space in which things can be seen and measured against spiritual criteria
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, understanding aimed at spiritual growth
    Calvino Rabeni: So, all very interesting, what's in a word
    Calvino Rabeni: And important as a part of a contemplative lifestyle
    Calvino Rabeni: or a contemplation practice
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Augury! What a lovely new word
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I just googled it - it said a priest or official whose role was to interpret the will of the gods by studying the flight of birds ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... the direction , speed of flight, etc. all the aspects ... I really like that idea!
    Calvino Rabeni: That's pretty ancient

    Calvino Rabeni: I Ching probably originated in a similar pragmatic setting
    Calvino Rabeni: So the Augur was a deep listener, looking at all those dimensions of the phenomena
    Calvino Rabeni: And then in the group (about 20 people) there were all kinds of versions / levels of listening
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: yes!
    Calvino Rabeni: Starting with, just point your face in the right direction, and shut up :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't argue, etc.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: sure, ... as a minimum level.
    Calvino Rabeni: Like non-defensive listening
    Calvino Rabeni: Right, as a minimum
    Calvino Rabeni: and the next level something like - being able to get a somewhat accurate idea of what someone is trying to communicate
    Calvino Rabeni: The squeaky wheel gets the oil - unfortunately
    Calvino Rabeni: So our social learning focuses on the problem cases
    Calvino Rabeni: and we don't learn that well from the GOOD examples
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Being able to get a somewhat accurate idea of what someone is trying to communicate. Much more difficult than it seems ...
    Calvino Rabeni: That's true
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... I have learned from trying to get a little more depth in that area.
    Calvino Rabeni: But there are other levels, and I don't believe, it's necessary to get one "right" or full before being able to do anything with those other levels
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: MMM. well I like your attitude there. it's not hopeless.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: For example, some of the men, had wives that would bully them a little about listening - they felt they could *never* get it right
    Calvino Rabeni: They might truly have been bad at it
    Calvino Rabeni: but were not getting good objective feedback either
    Calvino Rabeni: which is important for learning
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, communication in marriage. Sigh.
    Calvino Rabeni: We did some listening / communicating exercises relevant to that, in the martial arts school
    Calvino Rabeni: It seemed to surprise people that it was on the curriculum of that school
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: That had a somewhat different purpose though, as I recall.
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, that particular level is incomplete
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Not specifically designed to delve into communication ....
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but to use communication to bring out where one is at, at that moment.
    Calvino Rabeni: I saw it as delving into mind and perception
    Calvino Rabeni: and authenticity, construed in a certain way
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes.
    Calvino Rabeni: Well maybe some people have done those exercises in couples therapy also or something
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: which ones?
    Calvino Rabeni: and they have it somewhat figured out as having something to do with accuracy
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, reflective listening exercises
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: But also , not to do with accuracy, but serving specific functions in terms of the interactions or relationships.
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes if there's a kind of buddhist flavor to the therapist, they associate it with the idea of ego
    Calvino Rabeni: and that was somewhat present in the martial arts school also

    Calvino Rabeni: A case in point - listening for effect
    Calvino Rabeni: But it ultimately won't satisfy
    Calvino Rabeni: They start thinking "If only I could get my 'Self' out of the way, then I would be a better listener, and it would serve the (unstated) function of creating a meeting of minds
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah, satisfaction! Now there's a topic! As juciy and meaty as "help" if not more so.
    Calvino Rabeni: But that has an inherent contradiction, of course
    Calvino Rabeni: It's as I see it, similar / ovelapping / same topic as Help
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I probably would lnever have that thought. I don't"think" ... ! Ha ha
    Calvino Rabeni: "Thinking" includes intelligent behavior of soma
    Calvino Rabeni: Let us liberate intelligence from the "Thinking" box
    Calvino Rabeni: or redeem the word "Thinking"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm all for that Calvino!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: No, "thinkin" cannot be redeemed, it is what it is too much so in the mind of everybody.
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I'm thnking of Huckleberry Hound, asserting "I'll do the thinnin' around here!"
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, there were some people talking about their communication relationships with their partners
    Calvino Rabeni: And they were doing the "accuracy" thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure it can :) But, we can't substantiate that either way
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Ah, we were almost having an exciting argument there!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: .. but go on about the accuracy thing ...
    Calvino Rabeni: and it wasn't working, the partner was saying - "NO, I don't feel listened to!"
    Calvino Rabeni: "But you said, XYZ "
    Calvino Rabeni: "Isn't that right?"
    Calvino Rabeni: "Yes, but you're not listening!"
    Calvino Rabeni: Some version of that story
    Calvino Rabeni: See where I'm going with that?
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Yes, I experienced something similar in this communication practice I was involved with. Because the emotional / feeling component wasn't being listened to or heard in that case
    Calvino Rabeni: Even if it were on that level, it wouldn't necessarily be the thing....
    Calvino Rabeni: Although it's probably a good guess
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Right, not necessarily, of course.
    Calvino Rabeni: So one of the things being asked for, was beyond anything like accurate egoless listening
    Calvino Rabeni: What the partner wanted, is to see how (her) statement REALLY affected her partner.
    Calvino Rabeni: That is, listening in relationship that has 2 people in it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... more like needing a sense of just presence, being accepted, "heard" in that sense.
    Calvino Rabeni: THe partner didn't so much want to be seen, as to be in a connected relationship that has two authentic sides to it
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: There you go. That would be the ideal in my mind as well.
    Calvino Rabeni: An even, "accuracy" took a second place consideration
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Nicely phrased I would add, Calvino.
    Calvino Rabeni: The partner could have said - What I really want is YOU, in relationship to what I am offering of myself"
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: My investigations seem to show me that accuracy in communication is neither needed nor desirable in most personal communications. It is useful in business or engineering however.
    Calvino Rabeni: Actually I think I agree - I think that there's a slightly misguided idea, coming from an engineering culture
    Calvino Rabeni: that says, communcation is about exchanging information accurately
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: In fact, it's highly disruptive of social relationships, and should be used sparingly if at all.
    Calvino Rabeni: hehe
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: I thought we just agreed it's more about maintaining social relationships.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Or should I say, "talking" is about maintaining social relationships ...
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... probably "communication " is defined just as you said.

    Mitzi Mimistrobell: It's been real, Calvino, must sign off now ... next week I presume.
    Lucinda Lavender: hi all!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: We well
    Lucinda Lavender: Just leaving?
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, Mitzi
    Calvino Rabeni: Great talking to you
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: Be well ... Yes, just leaving ... nice to brush up against your presence though!
    Mitzi Mimistrobell: See you another time I'm sure ...
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: sure...it takes me a while to get here sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: We had been talking about the idea of Listening
    Lucinda Lavender: hey zaldaan
    Lucinda Lavender: listening deeply?
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Zal
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, well, about how it could be deeper
    Calvino Rabeni: in the technical culture, listening is thought of as maybe about communication in a technical sense
    Zaldaan Sirnah: howdy :)
    Calvino Rabeni: You will be interested in reading the log, but it was a long session, Lucinda
    Lucinda Lavender: ah...yes
    Calvino Rabeni: So deeper listening - like you do in your dream circle
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: listing beyond the requirements of looking for an accurate intterpretation of a "message"
    Lucinda Lavender: we had a rubiks cube in one of the dream today
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Um, so it isn't a technique any more
    Calvino Rabeni: like - communication becomes communion
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: there is something to be learned from ceremony
    Calvino Rabeni: I wanted to finish a story I started about a dying man in that contemplation group I am in
    Calvino Rabeni: The man could not make it to the group meeting
    Calvino Rabeni: too sick, on his death bed
    Lucinda Lavender: so sorry to hear that
    Calvino Rabeni: so his friend make a video for him to bring to group
    Zaldaan Sirnah: did you visit him?
    Calvino Rabeni: No but many of his closer friends went out to his island - on a ferry, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: He told the group the main things he learned from them
    Calvino Rabeni: Particularly about a kind of listening
    Lucinda Lavender: interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: "What I learned from you is that the greatest gift I could give you, is to be authentically present with you"
    Calvino Rabeni: Before you arrived, the topic was - some people weren't satisfied even when their partners got pretty good at "accurate" reflective listening
    Calvino Rabeni: but they wanted communion, not communication
    Calvino Rabeni: and expressed it as "You're not listening"
    Lucinda Lavender: hmmm
    Lucinda Lavender: so interesting
    Lucinda Lavender: in one dream today there was a dream with the image of husband and wife holding hands sleeping and in deep connection
    Calvino Rabeni: Wow
    Calvino Rabeni: Well as Woody Allen said, "90% of life is just showing up"
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Although he wasn't a spiritual exemplar or anything
    Calvino Rabeni: that's a good image of it
    Lucinda Lavender: in this dream beings were listening in to the space of their minds though their connection to each other
    Lucinda Lavender: through
    Lucinda Lavender: I can tell you about it another time tho if you want to talk about the way the earlier discussion went and in light of your learning from the dying man
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel complete with it

    Lucinda Lavender: what if our deepest connection is when we have less consciousness running it?
    Lucinda Lavender: judging how to interpret
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe even more silence
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I can see that under some circumstances
    Lucinda Lavender: I am somewhat fueled by today's dream circle.
    Lucinda Lavender: and any synchronicities I am hearing
    Lucinda Lavender: what do you think?
    Calvino Rabeni: tell me about it ...
    Lucinda Lavender: The dream was told beautifully and the idea that our unity in a relaxed state is the opening of the mind...
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that theme
    Lucinda Lavender: in the dream when the husband got up the link was broken
    Lucinda Lavender: then women who study mysteries were looking to open the mind again which had bee srapped with duct tape...
    Lucinda Lavender: been wrapped
    Lucinda Lavender: ducts carry
    Lucinda Lavender: then it was presented that a certain clearning about color and form would assist in this as well but it would be based not in appearance but in energetic connection. And the Rubiks cube was a key as well.
    Lucinda Lavender: I thought immediately if Bleu's Rubik cube and Pema the Rubyist
    Lucinda Lavender: sorry to go on so

    Lucinda Lavender: deep dream
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like it
    Calvino Rabeni: And it's in line with my contemplations of last week
    Lucinda Lavender: can you say more?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll try :)
    Calvino Rabeni: sorry phone call - brb
    Calvino Rabeni: back
    Lucinda Lavender: ok
    Calvino Rabeni: there's a level of consciousness accessed in dreams and deep states, maybe sleep
    Calvino Rabeni: in which complex knowledge can be present in a kind of unified way
    Calvino Rabeni: and also the "over the edge" thinking of the dreaming mind
    Calvino Rabeni: And one of the challenges is maintaining a relationship to it during waking life
    Calvino Rabeni: in a sense, every day waking up, is a forgetting or amnesia from some of those other knowing states
    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I was talking to Mitzi in IM about it - we both had dreams last night with a similar theme
    Calvino Rabeni: also related to the theme of contemplation that came up before you arrived at the session
    Lucinda Lavender: Ah
    Lucinda Lavender: New Moon Solar Eclipse today
    Calvino Rabeni: which is how to create an environment that supports contemplative understanding

    Lucinda Lavender: and there comes in the right use of will...
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: authentic presence
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: what if being/soul is creating the possibility of connection for us all
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that a useful perspective
    Lucinda Lavender: places of intersection
    Lucinda Lavender: placement, intelligence unity and movement are the principles of the violet sphere and in the dream a lavender/violet mist infused itself iinto the dream
    Lucinda Lavender: this vilet sphere is the sphere of ceremony and architecture
    Lucinda Lavender: violet
    Lucinda Lavender: just for expanation there...
    Lucinda Lavender: explanation
    Lucinda Lavender: unity in a marriage for example is a potential place of intersection
    Lucinda Lavender: based perhaps in ceremony to begin with...tho certainly not always...just thinking outloud
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not married, so I'm not too aware of its current status as an institution
    Calvino Rabeni: of course there's many variations
    Lucinda Lavender: :) yes
    Calvino Rabeni: I saw a book lately called Spiritual Partnership, by Zukav
    Calvino Rabeni: In the tradition of new age / human potential I think
    Lucinda Lavender: I like the idea of that topic
    Lucinda Lavender: did you read anything there that stood out for you?
    Calvino Rabeni: I only kind of browsed its promotional materials in a Meetup.com group
    Calvino Rabeni: but my interest in it was more in its application outside the institution of marriage

    Lucinda Lavender: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: what would make for a spirtual partnership?
    Lucinda Lavender: big question...but authentic presence and deep listening come to mind
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and the agreements between a husband and wife for those qualities, could be taken between any two people or a group
    Lucinda Lavender: yes!
    Calvino Rabeni: the Irish have a concept of spiritual friend
    Calvino Rabeni: there's a book about it - Anam Cara, by John O'Donohue
    Calvino Rabeni: so it is not missing in traditions
    Calvino Rabeni: a kind of a friend version of a spiritually beneficial relationship
    Calvino Rabeni: outside the hierarchical pattern of the master / student relationship
    Calvino Rabeni: but it is required to create a satsang or communitiy of practice
    Lucinda Lavender: hmmm
    Lucinda Lavender: yes, sounds interesting. I had best go...forgot the bath water...
    Lucinda Lavender: cooling
    Calvino Rabeni: I should go also - thanks for coming by for a while - I liked your dream image
    Lucinda Lavender: you are welcome
    Calvino Rabeni: Talk to you later Cinda and Zal
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: BFN
    Lucinda Lavender: bfn...Zal, Cal

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