2010.07.29 07:00 - Awakeness and awareness

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

    Storm Nordwind: Good afternoon Sartre
    Sartre Placebo: hey, how are you doing
    Storm Nordwind: Not so bad, thank you. Awake at least!
    Sartre Placebo: hehe, awake is not so important
    Sartre Placebo: awareness is the key :P
    Sartre Placebo: i am just kidding
    Sartre Placebo: i am more awake then aware :P
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Storm Nordwind: Can one be aware but not awake?
    Sartre Placebo: i could imagine that
    Sartre Placebo: we are talking about lucid dreaming often
    Sartre Placebo: but let us lead that question over to eden :)
    Sartre Placebo: when she´s here
    Storm Nordwind: I wonder if - at best - that merely mimics full wakefulness, rather than increasing awareness... but I am probably no expert! :)
    Sartre Placebo: eden likes to walk
    Storm Nordwind: She shares that with me
    Storm Nordwind: Good morning Eden!
    Sartre Placebo: hi eden
    Eden Haiku: Good morning Storm.
    Storm Nordwind: Good morning Bleu!
    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
    Eden Haiku: Hi Sartre.
    Eden Haiku: Good morning Bleu.
    Storm Nordwind: So far we have talked about awakeness and awareness...
    Eden Haiku: ;)

    Lucid dreaming.

    Storm Nordwind: I suggested I was only just awake this morning, and Sartre suggested that being aware was more important
    Sartre Placebo: can we be aware when we are not awake
    Sartre Placebo: so lucid dreaming
    Bleu Oleander: ah yes, can be aware while not awake
    Storm Nordwind: I also wondered whether - at best - lucid dreaming merely mimics full wakefulness, rather than increasing awareness. But I am not an expert practitioner!
    Storm Nordwind is hoping to learn more from the experts here :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eden Haiku: ;)
    Bleu Oleander: you can have dreams in which you are not only aware of the fact that you are dreaming but also have a complete memory of your dream and your waking life
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, I'd gathered that. But does it also involve an awareness that is somehow 'extra' to what you might have while awake?
    Bleu Oleander: well just the awareness that you are dreaming
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Bleu Oleander: that it is a simulation of sorts
    Storm Nordwind: Or, in the wakeful equivalent, awareness that you are in an imaginative reverie perhaps?
    Eden Haiku: ::::::In this lucid dream ::::::Of our lives as avatars::::::Are we the dreamers?
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Eden Haiku: Or are you the dreams of the machine?
    Eden Haiku: Are we the dreams of the machine.
    Storm Nordwind: And if so, how many machines are there? :)
    Eden Haiku: That is the question.

    Eden's old notebook.

    Eden Haiku: Imaginative reverie...yesterday, looking up notes for the novel I'm writing, I read a notebook of 2 years ago.
    Eden Haiku: Twice, a few weeks after my mother's death, I had written "conversations" with her "soul". Imaginative reverie kind of...
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Eden Haiku: Only twice. Never read that notes after that,.
    Storm Nordwind: I expect it was immensely helpful at the time. How did you find coming back to those notes?
    Eden Haiku: But as I did yesterday, the conversation felt so "real". So much full of insights.
    Bleu Oleander: I can imagine
    Eden Haiku: Yes Storm, very helpful at the time. And reading it yesterday was precious.
    Storm Nordwind: :))
    Eden Haiku: She was even seeing things about the novel I'm writing that I discovered only a few days ago...Two different threads being only one in fact. And my best friend who had died a few years before my Mom was with her, orienting her, giving me advice for my writing too...
    Eden Haiku: Was I dreaming while awake :)?

    Communicating via the 'medium' of Second Life.

    Eden Haiku: In my first sessions at PaB, I had the feeling my mother was sitting in the circle :)
    Storm Nordwind: Yes I remember that
    Eden Haiku: As silent as Sartre...
    Sartre Placebo: yes
    Eden Haiku: But a real presence. Just like Sartre is.
    Eden Haiku: A feeling of presence.
    Storm Nordwind: And this leads me to ask about 'immersion'. Did you feel she was next to you in the circle here? Or did you feel she was next to you in RL? Or had the two become so merged already by that time? :)
    Eden Haiku: Humm.. she was sitting in the circle in SL, on the other side.
    Eden Haiku: Not close to me, but being part of the group, but silent.
    Storm Nordwind: So... and please forgive the expression... almost like the ghost in the machine.
    Eden Haiku: Yes!
    Eden Haiku: Like she had no means to reach me but through this metaverse, she could inhabit the machine and let her presence be felt.
    Storm Nordwind: I understand... and it is almost as though she is smiling and nodding to me now in confirmation :)
    Eden Haiku: Now, I can "see" her here in a reverie yes, and I'm quite aware it is a reverie but there is some truth to it even though it doesn't feel as "real" as when the mourning process was in its earlier stage.
    Storm Nordwind smiles and nods
    Eden Haiku: Now, she is more like in my heart, mingled with my flesh and bones and awareness,
    Eden Haiku: Is that what you meant by "immersion" Storm?

    Some big questions about immersion.

    Storm Nordwind: Immersion is a wide subject. Not only "What is it that we are?" but "Where is that me that I identify with?" Am I in this virtual world, or merely watching it? And how is that different from so-called real life? And when I meet people in SL, where do I feel I'm meeting them - in SL or with me in RL?
    Eden Haiku: Ah, yes, I see...
    Eden Haiku: How is it for you Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: yes, big subject!
    Eden Haiku: You are also relatively new to SL.
    Bleu Oleander: feels very immersive to me
    Eden Haiku: And Sartre, do you feel immersed?
    Sartre Placebo: extremly
    Eden Haiku: I usually jump in like Gumbie in a book and loose myself in the play.
    Sartre Placebo: but being immersed and being confused are closely together for me
    Eden Haiku: And then I realize I can take a step back and watch it like a witness.
    Sartre Placebo: and confusion destroys the experience
    Eden Haiku: Like in RL, when the witness awakens and you see yourself aboutto do or to say something.
    Bleu Oleander: feels like communication across technology but at the same time feels like I am at a gathering here in sl
    Eden Haiku: And you are aware enough to make a decision instead of acting like a machine.
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Ewan
    Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ewan
    Eden Haiku: Hi Ewan.
    Eden Haiku: I am very aware avatars are real people behind computers.
    Storm Nordwind: Me too.
    Eden Haiku: And that we are really meeting in words at least. And sometimes in voices too thanks to Yaku :)
    Storm Nordwind would like to come to those sessions, but it is already weekend for me...
    Sartre Placebo: hey ewan
    Ewan Bonham: hi sartre
    Eden Haiku: Our hearts and souls and spirits are channeled through words and silences as well.
    Ewan Bonham: I think we can feel the energy through the internet...distance etc.
    Ewan Bonham: Without words
    Eden Haiku: Yes Ewan, I feel that too
    Eden Haiku: There is so little we know compared to all that is yet to be known
    Storm Nordwind: Do you think in the same way that we can communicate in each others' physical presence, even if our eyes are closed?
    Ewan Bonham: Because this sensitivity is still developing with me, I would say with certain folks, yes
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Eden Haiku: A kind of synchronizing that can happen in physical presence, yes eyes closed or not, as in these conversations here yes, I would think.

    Winding up.

    Bleu Oleander: bye for now everyone .... enjoy your day!
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Bleu
    Ewan Bonham: Bye Blue
    Eden Haiku: Bye Bleu :)
    Sartre Placebo: bye bleu
    Sartre Placebo: i am in a facinating sci fi sim right now , from the group i use with yakuzza
    Sartre Placebo: the group i am with is also a language education group whom take their group to excusions
    Sartre Placebo: also very interesting
    Eden Haiku: Sorry to interrupt Sartre, I have some work to do. Thanks for the nice conversation, bye Storm, enjoy your week end, bye Ewan!
    Ewan Bonham: Is this in sl?
    Sartre Placebo: take care eden
    Sartre Placebo: yes
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Ewan Bonham: Bye Eden
    Sartre Placebo: cypris is that group
    Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me guys... I have to go and carve out a couple of new guardian plots! :)
    Sartre Placebo: http://cyprischat.org/
    Sartre Placebo: take care everyone

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