2010.07.29 19:00 - Dreaming Body

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Paradise Tennant. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

    Fox Monacular: Hi Paradise!
    Fox Monacular: looking spectacular
    Fox Monacular: wow
    Paradise Tennant: good to see you fox :)

    Fox Monacular: :) good to see you as well!
    Fox Monacular: how are you?
    Fox Monacular: ?
    Paradise Tennant: very well thanks and you :)
    Fox Monacular: good, thanks, chaotic as usual, but mostly good:)
    Paradise Tennant: unpacked now and settled ?
    Fox Monacular: well, yes and now... Ive been in Montreal for the past 2 months with my daughter... profiting by grandparents' vacations and working on my thesis
    Fox Monacular: how is your summer unfolding?
    Paradise Tennant: oh wonderful
    Paradise Tennant: I am ..working hard unfortunately :)
    Paradise Tennant: but the weather here has been fabulous
    Fox Monacular: any vacations?
    Paradise Tennant: going to see some friends in montreal this weekend but other than that no
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Fox Monacular: not as hot as everywhere else/
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: how has montreal been
    Fox Monacular: pretty hot and humid
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: how is baby
    Fox Monacular: will be 2 years old tomorrow:)
    Fox Monacular: not really a baby anymore
    Paradise Tennant: smiles so walking
    Paradise Tennant: talking
    Paradise Tennant: dreaming
    Fox Monacular: walking talking and questioning our authority:)
    Fox Monacular: they're probably already dreaming in vitro:)
    Fox Monacular: you know they say babies start saying 'no' at 2 years old?
    Fox Monacular: that's her stage now
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: anything that does not kill you will make you stronger
    Fox Monacular: hehe, yes
    Fox Monacular: so far it's been pretty easy (knock on the wood)
    Fox Monacular: but now she says 'no' to everything, including, food, diapers, stroller... so it's getting more tricky
    Paradise Tennant: yep
    Fox Monacular: that's where 9 sec breaks help!
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: can see that :)

    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Fox Monacular: this avatar you have is very dreamlike
    Paradise Tennant: smiles seem to be channeling .. either tinkerbell or the littlest mermaid :)
    Paradise Tennant: but it pleases me
    Fox Monacular: it's nice
    Paradise Tennant: thank you
    Fox Monacular: dreamy
    Paradise Tennant: yes my grand mother would say fey :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Paradise Tennant: how is your thesis going
    Fox Monacular: slowly
    Fox Monacular: i changed my plan about 40 times now
    Fox Monacular: hopefully this latest idea is going to be the final
    Fox Monacular: and hopefully they'll give me an extension at the university;)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Fox Monacular: my thesis director is too good to me:) he just lets me do whatever I want! If he had just told me what to do, it would have been all done by now:)
    Paradise Tennant: they will always give you an extension :) just make sure you bring baby when you go in to ask :)
    Fox Monacular: I did!:)
    Paradise Tennant: ahhh h
    Paradise Tennant: but .......
    Paradise Tennant: it would not have been your "happy idea" ..
    Paradise Tennant: use to work up three or four ideas ..
    Fox Monacular: hehe, I know... :)
    Fox Monacular: yes, it's better this way, for sure
    Paradise Tennant: then go with the one that gave me that happy feeling .. that flowy feeling
    Fox Monacular: I like that 'flowy feeling"
    Fox Monacular: I'm more of a divergent thinking type, so I have a lot of trouble just settling on one thing and working on it...
    Fox Monacular: there's always more
    Fox Monacular: and so it just never ends
    Fox Monacular: but you're right, flowy feeling means you're on to something.. or understand something well enough to contribute to the discourse in some meaningful way
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: nods
    Paradise Tennant: precisely
    Paradise Tennant: lol sometimes it does sort of feel like your channeling
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: what idea have you finally settled on :)
    Fox Monacular: well, to make a long story short, we're working on the ways of embodiment in dreaming
    Fox Monacular: the way dreams are percepts just like wake
    Paradise Tennant: ways of embodiment ..
    Fox Monacular: and so the way we navigate, orient and use our 'dreambodies' in dreaming
    Paradise Tennant: levels of reality in dreams
    Paradise Tennant: ahh
    Fox Monacular: yes, something like that
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: brillant
    Paradise Tennant: !
    Paradise Tennant: !
    Paradise Tennant: like it
    Paradise Tennant: !
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: thanks:)
    Fox Monacular: so basically the study is pretty much finished
    Fox Monacular: now the long part - analyses
    Fox Monacular: but we've already shown that we can train people to report certain perceptual details
    Fox Monacular: and so now I have to see how and which
    Fox Monacular: something like that

    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Paradise Tennant: training someone to be aware while asleep
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: it is a very powerful project .. fox ..
    Fox Monacular: it's a beginnign
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: training to report dreams is extremely important
    Fox Monacular: those who meditate soon realize that even in wake we're hardly aware
    Fox Monacular: so what about the 'naive' dream reports we are getting?
    Fox Monacular: how close to 'real' dream phenomenology are they?
    Paradise Tennant: nods and listens
    Fox Monacular: it's like asking a professional wine taster to describe a particular bottle
    Fox Monacular: and then asking... well.. me
    Fox Monacular: I'll use 3-4 adjectives
    Fox Monacular: and he'll use 2 pages
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: have a couple of friends becoming sommeliers .. they can take a couple of pages
    Fox Monacular: yes, exaclty
    Fox Monacular: so we just want better dream reports.. for now
    Fox Monacular: to really do some kind of a more specific analyses
    Paradise Tennant: what would be the ultimate questions
    Fox Monacular: that is the question:)
    Fox Monacular: first, if training works
    Fox Monacular: and then what's differnet
    Fox Monacular: in new reports
    Fox Monacular: and then, I'm personally interested in embodiment, so that's what I'll look for
    Fox Monacular: but I don't have much to show yet... we just settled on questions and scoring scales:) so we'll see how that goes
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Fox Monacular: what's interesting for me, and I'll work on it more during mu phd, is that for one phenomenology seems to have always been addressing waking experiences with the subject actively interacting with the world
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Fox Monacular: and then there's a more recent movement on 'naturalized' phenomenology that deals with neuroscience a lot
    Fox Monacular: but it seems pretty reductionist
    Fox Monacular: so I wonder what will happen if we consider dreaming in these frameworks
    Fox Monacular: the subjective experience par excellence:)
    Fox Monacular: or in other words, can we have a phenomenological approach to dreaming without being reductionist:)
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Fox Monacular: and still remaining faithful (to some extent) to empirical science
    Fox Monacular: anyway, this is the larger framework, and I'm just trying to work out a way to use my master's data towards phd project... or at least stay in the same theoretical field
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: it is almost like your talemt for vivid dreaming is guiding th
    Paradise Tennant: you
    Fox Monacular: funny, i never thought about it:)
    Fox Monacular: but for me it's hard to separate work and life:)
    Fox Monacular: and my husband's in the same field, he just finished his dissertation with the same thesis director
    Fox Monacular: so we never seem to leave work at work... not even in our sleep, hehe;)
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: best way is when work is life
    Fox Monacular: yes, we're very fortunate to be able to study what we sincerely are interested and invested in
    Fox Monacular: next step would be to get jobs
    Paradise Tennant: means you are in flow passionate about it
    Fox Monacular: which is not obvious:)
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Fox Monacular: what is your field, Paradise, if you don't mind me asking?
    Paradise Tennant: you will likely create you own job
    Fox Monacular: that would be nice
    Paradise Tennant: hmm I love what I do .. I manage an underwriting department for an investment firm .. predicative analysis day in day out ..with tons of moving parts :)
    Fox Monacular: what does underwriting mean? sorry, I'm not familiar with this term:)
    Paradise Tennant: in finance it means valuation assessing risk .. managing a deal structure to prevent loss :)
    Paradise Tennant: basically lending money ..in a way that you will get it back :)
    Fox Monacular: thanks:)
    Fox Monacular: sounds like a pretty dynamic environment
    Paradise Tennant: smiles .. yes very busy job ..most days to not get lunch . but fun
    Paradise Tennant: lots of mental challenge :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Paradise Tennant: have you been dreaming :)
    Fox Monacular: that's great if this is the challenge that you like!:)
    Paradise Tennant: yes a blessing to love what you do
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Fox Monacular: yes, I know what you mean:)
    Fox Monacular: how's your dream life?
    Paradise Tennant: hmm non existent at least that I can remember
    Paradise Tennant: only seem to remember a dream like once a year
    Paradise Tennant: how 's your
    Fox Monacular: I hardly remember these days
    Fox Monacular: but i've had a couple of intense dreams
    Paradise Tennant: listens
    Fox Monacular: we've talked about them in the dream workshop, I had 2 dreams of dismemberment
    Fox Monacular: within 2 weeks
    Paradise Tennant: ouch

    Fox Monacular: yeah...
    Fox Monacular: interestingly, i told my supervisor about my first dream
    Paradise Tennant: must have left you distressed
    Fox Monacular: of a brothel where they would ritually cut into pieces and then eat the prostitutes
    Fox Monacular: i got angry and burned the whole place down
    Paradise Tennant: nods seems like a sensible reaction
    Fox Monacular: yes, was ver distressed, because the ethical or compassionate component, whihc is so important to me in my real life, was completely absent1
    Fox Monacular: anyway, i tell my boss, and he is saying - ah, very classic, a shamanic dream or dismemberment, so wait a few days and you'll have another one
    Fox Monacular: and sure thing!
    Fox Monacular: in teh second dream i was on a train, saw a maniac cutting up a woman, called the police, had him captured and then was given a bowl of soup to feed him... at first i was still angry, but then decided to be kind and compassionate
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm
    Fox Monacular: so the conflict created by the first dream resolved itself in the second
    Fox Monacular: which coincided with a real life internal conflict resolution
    Fox Monacular: not surprisingly
    Paradise Tennant: why did he call it a shamanic dream what does that mean foretelling
    Fox Monacular: well, apparently in many shamanic traditions this is part of a rite of passage
    Fox Monacular: dismemberment (in dream or even real), then coming back together as a real shaman
    Paradise Tennant: so destruction is necessary for creation
    Fox Monacular: so like an archetype of fragmentation, and rebuilding, reconstitution
    Fox Monacular: I found it kinda cool that he was so sure I would have a second dream
    Paradise Tennant: hmm yes me too
    Fox Monacular: but I wonder whether I would have had it without his suggestion:)!
    Paradise Tennant: hmm sometimes when you really know your stuff ..there is an intuitive .. stream .. you just know things
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Fox Monacular: definitely
    Paradise Tennant: without .. mechanics ..the information it just there
    Fox Monacular: and he knows me pretty well too
    Fox Monacular: I often come to him with problematic dreams, and he always has this real insight
    Paradise Tennant: does he dream
    Fox Monacular: yes, he's a very vivid dreamer himself
    Paradise Tennant: you know lucinda is doing a monthly dream circle
    Fox Monacular: Yes, I saw. I just don't have any 'real' schedule:)
    Paradise Tennant: should check the web site playasbeing.org .. there are chat logs and the dates coming up
    Fox Monacular: so I always mean to come, but then it just doesn't work out
    Paradise Tennant: nods
    Fox Monacular: have you been?
    Paradise Tennant: no
    Paradise Tennant: not sure what I would say
    Paradise Tennant: would have to speak to an old dream
    Fox Monacular: i've never tried a dream circle, I'm not sure how it works either
    Paradise Tennant: smiles seems to be just about retelling the dream .. others offer comment and insight if moved to ... or not .. as the cae may be
    Paradise Tennant: I guess all dreams are vivid really
    Paradise Tennant: just seems they .. shimmer and fade when we awake
    Fox Monacular: that's one of the big questions
    Fox Monacular: about the difference between the dream and dream recall
    Fox Monacular: no way to ever be sure!

    Paradise Tennant: whenever I really remember a dream ..it always feels like a gift
    Paradise Tennant: I only seem to remember the really nice ones :)
    Paradise Tennant: often they involve music
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: that's not very common
    Fox Monacular: musicL(
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: are there whole pieces? or it's not the tunes that you know?\
    Paradise Tennant: had a snipet of one surface ..where I was listening to music and the notes .. opened .. or sort of unfurled within me .. it was like i was a pool .. with each note a pebble .. making concentric ripples in me
    Paradise Tennant: very unusual feeling
    Paradise Tennant: accommodating the sound internally that way
    Paradise Tennant: the other one I had a while back was sitting in a field .. with a woman and a man ..who i knew in the dream .. at table .. smiling at each other..
    Fox Monacular: cool
    Fox Monacular: like synesthesia
    Paradise Tennant: maybe
    Fox Monacular: where senses intertwine
    Paradise Tennant: they started to sing .. and then did too . .the woman looked surprised that I could sing ..
    Paradise Tennant: but it was not really singing per se .. we just makng these kind of bell tone notes
    Fox Monacular: sounds very creatuve, and the fact that you're able to report it actually means that you're very sensitive and aware
    Paradise Tennant: that .. harmonized ..
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Paradise Tennant: in an usual way .. then the song ended the notes seemed to shimmer in the air we smiled at each other and I woke up
    Paradise Tennant: first thought that was a gift :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Paradise Tennant: see only remember the really nice ones ::)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Fox Monacular: that's great??
    Fox Monacular: !
    Fox Monacular: (sorry my typing is terrible tonight I didn't mean ??, I meant !
    Paradise Tennant: I should say good nite fox .. I have to give the dog a bath .. brush his teeth ..still do laundry .. make cookies and pack for the weekend :) lol will be up till 2 :)
    Paradise Tennant: my typing is always terrible
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: good to talk to you, Paradise!
    Fox Monacular: have a good evening!
    Paradise Tennant: always find these sessions are at the end of my day ..when my brain is pooped :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Paradise Tennant: you too .. I hope you and yours have a wonderful weekend
    Fox Monacular: thanks, same to you:)
    Paradise Tennant: really looking forward to hearing more .. about your thesis
    Fox Monacular: good night!
    Fox Monacular: :), thanks:)

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