2010.07.30 06:00 - The Tripartite Structure of Experienc {-er, -ed, -ing}

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

    The fifth session of the 6 am series on time was again well attended; it was a lively, fast-moving discussion. Fasten your seatbelts folks for a wide ride in the experience-vehicle with appearances by the Trinity, duality/non-duality, kittens and even a riddle of triplets. Warning: there is fog on the road ahead.

    [Note: the greetings and comments at the beginning are in gray text; the reader may wish to jump down to the black text]

    Fefonz Quan: hey Yaku
    Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi all :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone! Hi Fefonz, Yaku, Pema, Bleu, Eden, Bruce :)
    Pema Pera: hi Yaku, Bleu, Fef, Bruce, Sharon, Eden, Maxine!
    Eden Haiku: Hi everyone:)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi MAxine
    Bruce Mowbray: Good day, everyone.
    Maxine Walden: Sophia, Bruce, Fef, Eden, Yaku, Pema
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Adams and Riddle
    Maxine Walden: hi, Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello Everyone :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Riddle

    Fefonz Quan: Hi Maxine, Sophia,Adams, Bruce
    Pema Pera: Hi Adams, Darren, Hana!
    Fefonz Quan: and Pema!

    Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Darren and Hana :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Adams, Hana, Darren
    Hana Furlough: Hi all!
    Bleu Oleander: hi Riddle, Bruce
    Riddle Sideways: Hi EveryBody
    Pema Pera: Hi Riddle!
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Eliza
    Darren Islar: hi Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Lucinda and Eliza
    Pema Pera: hi ELiza and Lucinda!
    Hana Furlough: Hi Eliza and Lucinda!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Hana, Riddle, Lucinda and Eliza :)
    Eden Haiku: HI Eliza :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza, Lucinda
    Darren Islar: hi Lucy
    Maxine Walden: hi. Lucinda, Eliza
    Lucinda Lavender: Hello everyone!
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Lucind
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eliza
    Pema Pera: Good morning/afternoon/evening!
    Riddle Sideways: Whatever Time

    Maxine Walden: :)
    Pema Pera: Morning for me this time; just got back to New York City
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone... rezzing...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome susan
    Darren Islar: hi susan
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Susan
    Pema Pera: hi Susan
    Susan Aloix: Hey all
    Hana Furlough: Hi Susan!

    Adams Rubble: Hello Susan
    Bleu Oleander: hi Susan
    Pema Pera: Please sot down and join us, Susan
    Susan Aloix: Thanks Yuka :)
    Pema Pera: *sit
    Susan Aloix: Hey Darren :)
    Darren Islar: Hi Susan :)
    Susan Aloix: Hi Sophia :)
    Susan Aloix: Hi Hana! :)
    Susan Aloix: Hello Bleu :)
    Susan Aloix: Hi Pema...thank you :)
    Pema Pera: Susan, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://wiki.playasbeing.org/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    Pema Pera: thanks for the shirt, Bruce :-)
    Pema Pera: I read the reports: Thank you all for those heart-felt contributions: Maxine's image of a floating timeless now, being All and also All-connected; Eden's way to let the body find a way to go beyond narrow fight-flight options; Bruce's light sense of letting go of letting go; Sharon's integration of vivid present's elements, from smiles to long view; Bleu's similar sense of integration, of no line that can be drawn.
    Pema Pera: all on http://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/Weekly_Reports/2010%2F%2F07%2F%2F30:_Reports
    Pema Pera: and, oh, a report from Eliza too today, seven in total
    Bleu Oleander: ty also for your report Pema
    Bleu Oleander: made me homesick for NYC
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, to all the reports, weaving a kind of tapestry
    Susan Aloix: reading.......Pema....thats fine...i've attended PaB before :) thank you
    Pema Pera: ah, sorry, Susan, didn't remember :)
    Susan Aloix: Only been once before i think Peme...is fine :) nice to meet you
    Pema Pera: This is kind of an unusual session, from 6 to 7: see http://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/Time_Sessions/
    Pema Pera: we normally gather four times a day, at 7 and 1, am and pm, but once a week we get togethere here at 6 am to talk about time
    Susan Aloix: ohh time...sounds great....:)
    Pema Pera: would anybody like to comment, or pose questions, suggestions, about the chapter text, reports, or whatever?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, I had to read the chapter several times to 'get; it
    Pema Pera: there's a lot in there -- I'm spending my whole life trying to "get it" :-)
    Bleu Oleander: still wondering where "attention" fits in? what role it plays
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, I read the chapter several times... will read again Sharon .. enjoy when that happens
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and think I could stay with it for a while
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ....would anyone like to volunteer to post today's time session to the wiki?
    Maxine Walden: the juxtaposition of awareness and existence I found intriguing and evocative
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Dao
    Hana Furlough: Hi Dao
    Dao Yheng: hi there -- sneaking in :)
    Adams Rubble: I will be glad to post it although I may have to leave early for plumbers
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dao :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks Adams
    Eden Haiku: I like the way you describe holding different 'roles' Pema, and Eliza sees her children switching to 'older selves' in a way. Awareness of roles.
    Pema Pera: How about this, Bleu: when attention is `done' by someone, we're dealing with experience, an attentive experience; when attention spontaneously happens, it may be closer to awareness (in the sense that we use these terms in the book chapters on http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Adams!
    Eden Haiku: I guess we all meet in our "players as Being" roles in here ;)
    Bleu Oleander: ty Pema, that helps
    Hana Furlough: as well, especially since I took on a new role this week as caretaker of two street kittens : )
    Eliza Madrigal smiles @ Eden
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hana :D
    Pema Pera: yes, Eden: a de-emphasis on the self allows all the roles to be set free more
    Eliza Madrigal: Well here we can move in and out of forms and roles perhaps
    Hana Furlough: * that really resonated with me as well
    Pema Pera: welcome to the cat club, Hana!
    Pema Pera: somehow in the last week or so cats seem to be everywhere in PaB !
    Eden Haiku: :)
    Fefonz Quan: sometimes i fill that 'attention' is more outward-actice, while awareness is more all-srounding
    Hana Furlough: wow, really?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes they do... what a funny string
    Maxine Walden: synchronicity-cats?
    Pema Pera imagine kittens playing with strings . . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the tripartite structure of experienc {-er, -ed, -ing}, while not confusing to me exactly, strikes me as... the subject doesnt exist, the object doesn't exist so the action doesn't exist. Like math, you cancel out the other two, the one left doesn't make sense. The only place they make any kind of 'sense' at all is in time.
    Eden Haiku: Playing as being cats :) A musical!
    Maxine Walden: :) Eden
    Hana Furlough: lol!
    Pema Pera: yes, Sharon, they appear together, a kind of "co-dependent arising"
    Pema Pera: hehehe, Eden
    Pema Pera: or cats playing as Being
    Eden Haiku: Maybe we all are cats pretending to be humans? Very evolved cats ;)
    Darren Islar: I'm not sure Sharon
    Dao Yheng: My cats seem to think so, Eden
    Pema Pera: Wol is a dog . . . .
    Hana Furlough: that sounds about right these days
    Bleu Oleander: my dogs would disagree :)
    Susan Aloix: Sophia....makes sense in the narrative.....:)
    Riddle Sideways: Cats ARE Being... playing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me either Darren ;D
    Fefonz Quan is no cat whatsoever
    Bleu Oleander: "no cat"
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, Fefonz
    Eden Haiku: I almost hear your dogs barking ther protest Bleu :)
    Darren Islar: that things don't make sense, doesn't mean they don't exist
    Eliza Madrigal: What is striking to me about cats, is that you can see the windows behind their eyes open... taking things in but not responding to them...
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eden Haiku: ;)
    Maxine Walden: right now we might be playing as kittens do with a thread or string, letting our thoughts jump this way and that
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes seeming to ignore everything but probably never doing so
    Pema Pera: always ready to pounce . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes @ Maxine ;-)
    Eden Haiku: TRying to grasp the tripartite Sharon was talking about...
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Susan Aloix: lol
    Pema Pera: tripartite sounds like a dangerous explosive . . . .
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Pema Pera: (and it actually is!)
    Hana Furlough: lol!
    Fefonz Quan nods to Darren :)
    Pema Pera: (handle it with care!)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and for some reason associating this tripartite with the 'trinity' of religion
    SophiaSharon Larnia: prevalent
    Pema Pera: actually, there is a link . . .
    Eden Haiku: Trying to remember what the structure '{-er, -ed, -ing},' stands for?
    Pema Pera: not literally, but in "spirit" so to speak
    Pema Pera: subject as empthy: God
    Pema Pera: object as concrete, flesh: Son
    Pema Pera: interaction as Holy Spirit
    Eden Haiku: Oh!
    Susan Aloix: cool
    Hana Furlough: interesting...
    Pema Pera: Eden: experiencer experiencing the experienced
    SophiaSharon Larnia: our experience needing to personify
    Pema Pera: in Buddhism the three would be Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya
    Eden Haiku: God playing as us!
    Pema Pera: er, ing, ed
    Dao Yheng: Pema, was that an intended meaning in Christianity?
    Eliza Madrigal: :))) @ Eden
    Pema Pera: not so much intended, Dao, as just what practitioners saw when they went deeply
    Pema Pera: it's the structure of reality, those three aspect
    Darren Islar: not sure Pema
    Pema Pera: aspects
    Pema Pera: so you see it from whatever angle you start, if you go deep enough, I would think
    Pema Pera: but of course you use different names then
    Pema Pera: with different associations
    Fefonz Quan: can you detail the specific analogy Pema?
    Pema Pera: (like male names in a desert religion culture, perhaps)
    Fefonz Quan: (er ed ... to dharmakaya etc.)
    Pema Pera: which one, Fef?
    Pema Pera: ah, okay
    Susan Aloix: i love that interpretation of the trinity...really speaks to me......
    Eliza Madrigal: which seems a bit like the pie or clock from Maxine's report..Being in the center... not that Being is not everything else too
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Pema Pera: the subject sees objects -- the objects look concrete, while the subject looks more like the openness in which the objects appear -- does that help, Fef?
    Pema Pera: But if anyone else has a different interpretation, I'd love to hear that -- these are just what I have found so far
    Pema Pera: Darren, you have a different view?
    Fefonz Quan: yes thanks
    Darren Islar: well, there is a lot to say about trinity and the kaya's, this is a huge simplification
    Fefonz Quan: (though i meant to the kaya's too, the tirnity not beinng my major faculty)
    Fefonz Quan: fds
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods @ Darren, it is, such a simplification that it almost loses it meaning for me
    Darren Islar: right
    Fefonz Quan: (though i meant the kaya's too, the tirnity not being my major faculty)
    Pema Pera: it's a loose parallel
    Bleu Oleander: "from the point of view of awareness, the whole tripartite structurre of experience is only an illusion ...."
    Darren Islar: it can be taken as something concrete, like you can name what the kaya's are about
    Bruce Mowbray: "trinity" seems to emerge as na archetype -- sort of like "cats" emerges.
    Susan Aloix: umm....thinks out loud on an interpretation of the trinity...god = empathy, son = empathy infused with spirit, spirit = context
    Hana Furlough: i wonder how these fits into the Tendai/Tiantai view of emptiness, provisionality and the middle
    Hana Furlough: the so-called three truths
    SophiaSharon Larnia: subject, object and action, not simple nor independent
    Bruce Mowbray muses: trinities everywhere!
    Susan Aloix: lol brown
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think
    Susan Aloix: bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: well, the dynamism and 'life' that a "worshiper" of any faith or not faith experiences... certainly holy spirit or sambhogakaya seems to resonate, though of course one wouldn't want to define that exactly
    Darren Islar: I would rather like to get deeper into the named tripartite instead of making parallels
    Pema Pera: the main difference between science and religions is that in science the main goal is the find out how different descriptions can throw light on the same reality -- whereas in religions, the emphasis is on very precise training in one tradition, with little attempt to make bridges to similar terms in other traditions.
    Pema Pera: in that sense, religion is about "salvation" you could say, going for depth, whereas science is about "integration" of different approaches -- again very roughly
    Darren Islar: not quite true, but I think that needs to be handles with care
    Eliza Madrigal: then let the bridges go when they aren't useful..
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Darren, sure
    Susan Aloix: nice comparision pema
    Pema Pera: if you're in a homogeneous culture, where everybody shares the same religious background, there is less reason to compare
    Eden Haiku: Looking closely at Bleu's avatar with the balck and white designs, she seems to be the concrete appearance of an awareweness incarnated :)
    Hana Furlough: my feeling is that you probably need people who go deeply and committedly into specific traditions, who then share in an interfaith dialogue
    Darren Islar: right Hana
    Pema Pera: but most of my science friends can "believe" either Christianity or Buddhism -- which is why I like to make some parallels, trying to show that it's not just fantasy or cultural quircks
    Bleu Oleander: wearing black and white to remind myself to see in colors
    Eden Haiku: ;)))
    Pema Pera: *cannot believe"
    Darren Islar: not much scientist here :)
    Maxine Walden: maybe our searching for definitions this morning reflects how easily we get 'lost' when trying to stay with awareness vs experience and other of what Pema has been writing; at first it is intriguing but not being very familiar to many of us we may then feel a bit lost; that has been my experience at least
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods and agrees :)
    Bruce Mowbray: speaking of inter-faith dialogue, I hope everyone visits the Museum of Sacred Art - - wonderful work, there.
    Darren Islar: I don't say making parallels is wrong to do, but to do it loose and lightly is making it sound like there is not real content
    Pema Pera: that's why the reports are such wonderful reminders of what we're after @ Maxine
    Darren Islar: *no
    Maxine Walden: agree, Pema
    Darren Islar: making it too concrete
    Susan Aloix: i would like to see science as about integration Pema....i'm not sure the effort towards *integration* is a democratic one
    Eliza Madrigal: well it is one thing to say to 'not believe or disbelieve' but to do that one needs to be really sincerely listening to all kinds of experiences.. trying on views..
    Eliza Madrigal: being flexible/playing in that way?
    Eden Haiku: Hoe you will also include your own reports in your book Pema, they illuminate the theory!
    Pema Pera: democratic is that everybody gets an equal chance, ideally -- from there on it's comparing what you fine @ Susan
    Eden Haiku: *Hope
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sheer and mere :)
    Pema Pera: Don't know yet Eden -- for now the book is just the web pages including the reports
    Pema Pera: *find*
    Pema Pera: (note "fine")
    Pema Pera: *not
    Pema Pera: grrr
    Susan Aloix: science is not always democratic....the scientific method is ideally democratic perhaps?
    Darren Islar: :)
    Darren Islar: typing can be hard :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: ideally, yes
    Susan Aloix: yeah :)
    Riddle Sideways: the peer review idea of scientific method is also important
    Pema Pera: definitely!
    Adams Rubble: established religios/traditions have peer review; sects usually not :)
    Hana Furlough: Adams, can you say more about that?
    Adams Rubble just musing :)
    Darren Islar: sorry for my English, but what is a 'peer review'? refering to the word 'peer' in this combination
    Adams Rubble: someone on eqqual footing
    Maxine Walden: had an interesting experience re getting lost this morning: woke feeling grey/gray and then saw that fog had moved into my city making everything grey. Actually lifted my spirits as I could then envision being in a temporarily foggy place internally rather than a 'lost' place forever. I think that sometimes we revert to intellectual/philosophical issues when we feel lost in 'experience'. Could that be part of what is occurring now?
    Darren Islar: okay, thanks
    Hana Furlough: nice, maxine
    Adams Rubble: :) Maxine
    Hana Furlough: a slip into speculation
    Fefonz Quan nods to maxine
    Dao Yheng: I don't think it's strictly a philosophical discussion -- To bring the inner and outer back together a bit -- I suppose the comparison between the trinity and subject/object/action seems very appealing to me because it reframes the trinity in terms of something I have studied (codependent arising) -- but it's helpful to me to recognize that subjectivity.
    Bruce Mowbray: @ Maxine -- perhaps we take refuge in "existence" (at a price!) when we feel "lost in experience."
    Eden Haiku: ;)
    Maxine Walden: :) maybe so, Bruce
    Pema Pera: /nods at Dao
    Hana Furlough: is there a way we can bring experience/awareness to philosophy?
    Eliza Madrigal nods @ Dao
    Bruce Mowbray muses: "Phenomenology."
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Hana Furlough: ha!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eden Haiku: a rose is a rose is a rose is
    Darren Islar: in the end awareness is not a philosophy, but there is a lot you can say about it, I guess
    Hana Furlough: there is that, of course, but what about in the context of religious dialogue?
    Fefonz Quan: but will it smell differently if you won't call it that name Ededn?
    Darren Islar: or can't be theorized enough
    Susan Aloix: nothing more practical than a good theory *Kurt Lewin*.....
    SophiaSharon Larnia: speaking of inner and outer, I've thought that the experience is the purpose of this tripartite splitting in the first place, on a subjective level, hard to put into words what i mean by that
    Eden Haiku: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: if anything has a purpose
    Darren Islar: That puts experience in the centre, interesting
    Eliza Madrigal: Immediacty, in a sense Sharon?
    Eliza Madrigal: Immediacy?
    Darren Islar: maybe the experience isn't the centre
    Bleu Oleander: how is creating the duality of awareness and experience helpful for being?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, immediacy
    Fefonz Quan: my view on the triptisething feels that the 'ing' is more fundamental than the 'er' r 'ed'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: like something is looking in a snow globe and wants be in it, feeling it
    Hana Furlough: are they not a process?
    Hana Furlough: a balance?
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel absolutely no difference between "awareness" and "experience." -- perhaps I need to be more aware and have more experience with that.
    Yakuzza Lethecus sneaks out, bye everyone
    Darren Islar: I think it isn't Bleu, but we are living in duality and need an approach
    Fefonz Quan: bye yaku
    Eden Haiku: By Yaku.
    Hana Furlough: Bye, Yaku~
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but im aware this may be where my battle line is
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Yaku
    Bleu Oleander: what do you mean, duality are we living in Darren?
    Eliza Madrigal really appreciates the snow globe imagery
    Susan Aloix: yes sophia....agrees the idea of what the split is about.....however....the split is ultimately a one of two things....firstly a construction....and i appears momentarily - in order that *I* sees *thou*...(a'la Buber)
    Darren Islar: well, you are not me and I'm not you, but you are here for me, because I 'experience' you
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Susan Aloix: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Arch
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Arch
    Eden Haiku: Good morning Arch :)
    Hana Furlough: Hi Arch~
    Darren Islar: but maybe I'm not aware this is my experience and I might think my experience is you
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Sophia......Hi, Everyone
    Pema Pera: hi Arch!
    Darren Islar: not sure if I make any sense :))
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Hana Furlough: Hi Gaya~
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
    Eden Haiku: Hello Gaya :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles yes it does Darren
    Darren Islar: hi Gaya
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Gaya
    Maxine Walden: Hi, Gaya, and Arch
    Darren Islar: hi Arch
    Pema Pera: hi Gaya!
    Riddle Sideways: Hi Arch, Gaya and cat
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya and Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Quite a crowd this meeting !
    Darren Islar: becoming aware of that duality is an important step in awareness
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I cantwonders if duality is beings solution to experience?
    Darren Islar: which first only creates more duality in a way
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I wonder*
    Eden Haiku: This is the ending f the "Time session' Arch, t blends into the next session in a few minutes.;)
    Bruce Mowbray feels that the "duality" is a mental construction that separates awareness from experience.
    Bleu Oleander: not sure I understand why referred to as duality
    Susan Aloix: Hey Gaya....arch cat :)
    Riddle Sideways: Duality easier to talk about then triplettes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Bruce hmm
    Pema Pera: what I call "experience" to give it a name is what incorporates duality
    Pema Pera: duality between subject and object
    Susan Aloix: yes Bruce
    Eliza Madrigal: Bruce, so you see duality as the snow globe glass, in a way?
    Pema Pera: and what I called "awareness" is what goes beyond duality
    Darren Islar: in the end you are right Bruce
    Eden Haiku: The triplettes, Riddle ... Giggles..
    Bruce Mowbray muses: No separation, for me.
    Darren Islar: I think :))
    Susan Aloix: yes Pema
    Eliza Madrigal giggles @ Riddle
    Hana Furlough: (sneaking out to nap while the kitties are sleeping)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Hana :)
    Hana Furlough: bye everyone!
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Hana, and kitties
    Darren Islar: bye Hana
    Eden Haiku: Bye Hana, say hello to the kitties...
    Pema Pera: yes, Bruce, ultimately there is no duality
    Bleu Oleander: subject and object material .... duality between them is experience?
    Riddle Sideways sneaks out while RL is awakening
    Pema Pera: but when there is a sense of self as separate, that introduces the illusion of duality
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Riddle
    Eliza Madrigal: :)) Riddle, bye
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye those leaving :)
    Eden Haiku: Bye Riddle...
    Bruce Mowbray: but "ultimately" (in thinking about Time) is here and now.
    Darren Islar: and I agree Pema that awareness is what goes beyond duality
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core