2010.07.31 13:00 - External vs. Innate Wisdom and Wondering Doors


    The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.


    Bleu Oleander: hi Wester
    Wester Kiranov: hi bleu

    Bleu Oleander: hi Ewan
    Bleu Oleander: hi Dream
    Dream Wrexan: hi
    Dream Wrexan: I'm helping Ewan find his lost doors
    Bleu Oleander: behind you Dream
    Dream Wrexan: thank you - we have no idea how that happened!
    Bleu Oleander: very easy to do :)
    Dream Wrexan: I guess I need that advanced building class
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Bleu Oleander: saw them moving around .... very funny
    Dream Wrexan: lol
    Dream Wrexan: sorry about that
    Bleu Oleander: no problem
    Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce
    Wester Kiranov: hi bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu and Wester.
    Bleu Oleander: how are you?
    Bruce Mowbray: Pretty good, thanks. I've been reviewing one of the session from yesterday.
    Bruce Mowbray: How are you both?
    Bleu Oleander: great, thanks
    Bleu Oleander: which session?
    Wester Kiranov: Fine. Back from holidays.
    Bleu Oleander: where were you Wester?
    Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful! I hope you had a relaxing time.
    Wester Kiranov: I was in the mountains of Austria, and then in Bled (Slovenia).
    Bleu Oleander: oh nice
    Bruce Mowbray: OHhh Ohhhh Great!
    Wester Kiranov: And I had as relaxing a time as is possible on a holiday with two 4-year-olds
    Bruce Mowbray: ha! You are brave!
    Bleu Oleander: a challenge I'm sure
    Bleu Oleander: yours?
    Wester Kiranov: Yes, mine. my husband was there too, and on the seconds half even my parents
    Bleu Oleander: wonderful
    Bruce Mowbray: A whole family affair!

    Bleu Oleander: hi Gaya
    Wester Kiranov: Hi Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Bleu, Bruce and Wester :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Gaya.
    Bleu Oleander: hi Ewan
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Ewan :)
    Bleu Oleander: I see your doors again :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Doors?
    Bleu Oleander: Ewan has some wondering doors
    Wester Kiranov: He was looking for his doors earlier
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Ewan.
    Bleu Oleander: funny to see them moving around
    Wester Kiranov: wondering doors - don't correct that, I like it.
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: I didn't see anything ... ah well.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Buona sera Qt :)
    Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
    Wester Kiranov: i haven't seen them either
    Wester Kiranov: hi Qt
    Qt Core: hi all ('sera Gaya)
    Bleu Oleander: they are over to your right Wester
    Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Qt.
    Qt Core: Hi Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: What's happening with Ewan?
    Bleu Oleander: he's trying to retrieve his doors
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure ...
    Wester Kiranov: he's trying to catch his doors, I believe
    Qt Core: doors ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh. . . well . . . of course.. . .
    Bleu Oleander: he must be building something
    Bruce Mowbray: with doors that run away. . .
    Bleu Oleander: that happens sometimes
    Bleu Oleander: funny
    Qt Core: oohh, build, this things everyone on sl talks about ;-)
    Wester Kiranov: ;-P
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bleu Oleander: if you don't build you probably haven't experienced that
    Qt Core: just tried adjusting some outfit, i'nn never have the taste or the patience for building
    Bleu Oleander: building is fun
    Qt Core: that's depend on the definition of fun ;-)
    Bleu Oleander: hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bleu Oleander: not fun when you lose your doors
    Bruce Mowbray: Not fun for Ewan, anyway.
    Gaya Ethaniel: We don't know that :)
    Qt Core: but now i just think we lost Ewab
    Qt Core: n

    I ask for a suggestion of a topic and Gaya comes us with a good one ....

    Bleu Oleander: anyone have a topic to suggest?
    Gaya Ethaniel: How about external vs. innate wisdom?
    Bleu Oleander: oh nice Gaya .... any initial thoughts?
    Bleu Oleander: hi Darren
    Wester Kiranov: hi darren

    Darren Islar: hi Bleu, Gaya, Wester and QT :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Darren :)
    Qt Core: Hi Darren
    Gaya Ethaniel: My first ah ha moment regarding innate wisdom was when someone [actually not very highly regarded or liked by others] says Buddha wasn't a Buddhist.
    Gaya Ethaniel: said*
    Gaya Ethaniel: It is very easy to look for an external approval on our experiences, thoughts, decisions etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: By approval, I mean relying totally on external knowledge.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think this is not helpful.
    Bleu Oleander: listening
    Gaya Ethaniel: ack
    Gaya Ethaniel listens.
    Darren Islar: (btw buddhism is manely a method, not external knowledge)
    Bleu Oleander: what do you mean by innate wisdom?
    Bleu Oleander: hi Adams
    Darren Islar: hi Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: For example, there are scriptures one can read. I consider this as external knowlege.
    Qt Core: hi adams
    Wester Kiranov: hi adams
    Adams Rubble smiles and quietly waves to everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's just a linen of thought I have been considering today. I don't have a long discourse ... :(
    Gaya Ethaniel: line*
    Wester Kiranov: what would you consider as innate wisdom?
    Bleu Oleander: my question too
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, there are bodily sensations, sometimes messages ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Gut feelings often give me a pause too.
    Bleu Oleander: internal feelings?
    Qt Core: something between a "outside the box" quick thinking or the resoult of some "background thinking"
    Gaya Ethaniel: I often hold question almost like an image, when meditating ... rather than consulting other people.
    Qt Core: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or some people say, if you hesitate, pause rather than action.
    Bleu Oleander: wb Ewan
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Ewan
    Darren Islar: hi Ewan
    Gaya Ethaniel: Off he goes again!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Ewan
    Qt Core: Ewan: a mano on a mission
    Wester Kiranov: so external knowledge is taking whole thoughts from other people, rather than figuring them out yourself?
    Bleu Oleander: (those wild doors again)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well Qt, it's similar to how one would practice with koan questions. Hard to describe in words I'm afraid ...
    Wester Kiranov: (I wonder where those doors lead to...)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Back here it seems :)
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Wester Kiranov: :-D
    Qt Core: like a puzzle piece rolling in our head waiting for its nearby piece ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps :)
    Darren Islar: or something you post in your own mailbox and finding it again later on, but then looking differently
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Darren Islar: finding the answer that was already there
    Gaya Ethaniel: I heard about a practice like that, writing something to oneself and post or put it away for a viewing at a later date.
    Bleu Oleander: like a diary?
    Darren Islar: ........ :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Usually in a few days or so ...
    Wester Kiranov: more like a note to your future self

    Gaya Ethaniel: Or a delayed email ...
    Darren Islar: some messenges don't take long, some months or even years
    Gaya Ethaniel: No I didn't mean external knowledge is relying on other people totally rather than figuring out oneself. I meant relying on the external knowledge alone is not very good ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: Figuring things out is an essential part in learning.
    Darren Islar: yes, I know :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: And perhaps I used to put far too greater emphasis on what other people says or textural sources.
    Gaya Ethaniel: And it probably was connected to not having much confidence generally.
    Darren Islar: yes, those two things ofte go together
    Darren Islar: *often
    Adams Rubble: as we get a better understanding of what we are, it is easier to rely upon ourselves
    Darren Islar: while strange enough, the ones who 'suffer' from that are most of the time the more sensitive people, often have more knowledge about those things in a intuitive way then lots of others do
    Darren Islar: *strangely *having
    Wester Kiranov: that's a general thing, people who know little feel they know a lot, and people that know a lot also know how little they know. There's a name for it, but I forgot
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Adams but there is a limit how far external knowledge can take us in our learning.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Being silly?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    Wester Kiranov: :P
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Wester Kiranov: some people actually researched it
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah wow ... ^^;;;
    Wester Kiranov: but I seem not to have internalized that part properly :(
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Did you all go through with this?
    Wester Kiranov: with what?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I mean balancing out innate vs external wisdom ...
    Darren Islar: to me it comes natural, but needed to learn to rely on my 'won' information
    Darren Islar: *'own'
    Bleu Oleander: by "innate" do you mean knowledge you were born with?
    Gaya Ethaniel: How did that change come about for you Darren?
    Darren Islar: but needing a method an information from outside as well
    Qt Core: not really, but still wonder somethimes from where something comes out
    Gaya Ethaniel: I guess so Bleu ...
    Darren Islar: trying to find the right envorionment
    Gaya Ethaniel: Of course, I'm using words, inside ... outside ... but don't think these are actual locations :P
    Wester Kiranov: have to go now. bye

    Darren Islar: looking for the 'flow' of energy between myself and my environment/ information
    Qt Core: bye Wester
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
    Darren Islar: bye Wester
    Adams Rubble: Bye Wester
    Bleu Oleander: seems to me that where and how you were brought up would be external knowledge framing your internal knowledge
    Darren Islar: there is some internal knowledge that I don't know where it comes from
    Darren Islar: *of which
    Qt Core: was thinking about that, Bleu, after all the years of esternal influence/.teachings, can we really have and/or regognize original thoughs/decision ?
    Bleu Oleander: hard to say where internal knowledge comes from
    Qt Core: sure our typos are ariginal ;-)
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Darren Islar: if it has no reflection at all on the outside, I doubt it
    Bleu Oleander: so many influences thoughout life
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    Bleu Oleander: there are many non-conscious influences
    Darren Islar: yes
    Qt Core: i was thinking about morals, you learned or you feel what is right ?
    Bleu Oleander: culture has a lot to do with that
    Adams Rubble: I don't think I feel it is as important WHERE the knowledge comes from as opposed to how useful it is to us
    Darren Islar: to me internal knowledge is deeper then moral
    Bleu Oleander: yes Adams
    Darren Islar: so I think you can do things that are not in line with yourslef
    Darren Islar: *yourself (need some typing lessons)
    Qt Core: without that we would start from inventing the fire every generation , Adams ;-)
    Darren Islar: right Adams
    Darren Islar: .... but holding on to moral standards you have learned, which is pretty frightening when you come to think about that
    Gaya Ethaniel: Willingness to take time and to figure things out for oneself is often under used when one values some sort of authority, often external?
    Gaya Ethaniel: values some sort of authority, often external, over own ability*
    Qt Core: and that could become a bad habit, tale it easy others will think for you
    Qt Core: *take
    Adams Rubble: learning to tell the difference between opinion and knowledge :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Even when knowledge or experience is shared ... if it's not integrated internally what is the use of knowledge or such interaction?
    Darren Islar: well, that can be subtle
    Gaya Ethaniel: Because as Qt says it becomes a habit ...
    Darren Islar: if you have learned to trust somebody
    Darren Islar: knowledge that is knew, can make you think
    Gaya Ethaniel: Habits are hard to break out ...
    Darren Islar: maybe in the end not addapting it
    Darren Islar: that is exactly why you need the knowledge of others
    Darren Islar: we tend to do what we always have been doing
    Adams Rubble thinks "dropping" rather than breaking out
    Adams Rubble: often more than the habit needs dropping
    Darren Islar: I thik it starts with dropping, then there is a moment of 'breakthrough'

    big rain storm, much needed in Arizona .... logged off before electricity did :)

    Bleu Oleander: big rain storm here so i'm going to sign off .... take care everyone :)
    Darren Islar: normally accompanied by a choice
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Bleu :)
    Darren Islar: bye Bleu :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Bleu. didn;t know it rained there (giggles)
    Qt Core: bye Bleu
    Bleu Oleander: once in a bleu moon hehe

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Darren Islar: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Breaking or dropping ... I'm happy with either terms ...
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Darren Islar: to me there is a difference
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well dropping can mean many things ... I'm not sure I want to go into that right now ... :)
    Adams Rubble: I think Gaya may be saying whichever works
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Darren Islar: sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: If your friend is in such a habit, what would you do?
    Gaya Ethaniel: S/he constantly looks for your thoughts on stuff.

    Adams Rubble: I was thinking that breaking may be something a friend does for us whereas dropping is something we can do ourselves
    Adams Rubble: always easier to drop than break
    Gaya Ethaniel: For me, breaking or dropping, one has to do it oneself ...
    Adams Rubble: sometimes we are blind to the obvious
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... you mean guiding?
    Adams Rubble: yes, that would be a good example
    Gaya Ethaniel: More lasting change in one's pattern comes from integration ... figuring out, trying, re-trying, experimenting ... etc done by oneself.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's what I mean by break the habit.
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Ewan again ... :)
    Adams Rubble: sometimes we are afraid to cross the bridge and need a little shove :)
    Adams Rubble: or a boot in the pants
    Adams Rubble: hopefu;;y across the brodge and not off of it :)
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ...
    Adams Rubble: This needs to be done by someone with knowldege of us and what is on the other side of the bridge
    Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed ...
    Adams Rubble: otherwise it can do us harm
    Gaya Ethaniel: Finding such a person can be difficult :)
    Darren Islar: the knowledge from outside
    Adams Rubble: I think they find us
    Darren Islar: a needle in a haystack
    Darren Islar: yes, that seems to work that way :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not entirely because finding such a person would include an ability to discern what is right for us and them.
    Darren Islar: sure, it is both
    Darren Islar: that is what I mean with the flow between myself and my environment
    Adams Rubble: I must run an errand before going offline. Thank you for the good conversation.
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Darren Islar: it needs to 'fit' somewhere
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Adams :)
    Darren Islar: bye Adams
    Qt Core: Bye Adams
    Adams Rubble: bye Qt, Gaya and Darren
    Darren Islar: and then there can be guidance in the right way
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Darren Islar: knowledge from outside
    Darren Islar: but always needed to be digested by yourself
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: This message sometimes I find is hard to get across ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: To people who are in the habit of not figuring things for themselves.
    Darren Islar: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps it's my inability to communicate too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: As much as their discomfort for looking at themselves ...
    Darren Islar: sometimes it needs a conflict, most of the time we're not really good at that :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, it may be just not a right fit as you said Dareen :)
    Darren Islar: right
    Gaya Ethaniel: idk I don't like conflicts :P
    Darren Islar: me neither :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Darren*
    Darren Islar: and conflict is maybe a big word
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello morgano :)
    Qt Core: Hi morgano
    morgano Bravin: Hi
    Darren Islar: but doing the thing that you think is right and knowing you are taking a risk, is hard
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah yes ...
    Darren Islar: hi Morgano
    morgano Bravin: hi
    morgano Bravin: its not private is it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: No :)
    Darren Islar: no :)
    morgano Bravin: ty:)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Darren Islar: this place is not private :)
    Darren Islar: the pavillion I mean
    Qt Core: it is the most public it can get, we log what we say here and post on our wiki
    morgano Bravin: I know its sort of outside hours
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I have things on my mind and Darren and Qt have been bearing with me :)
    Darren Islar: true, but the pavillion is not the right place for private talks, except maybe in IM

    Qt Core: :)
    Darren Islar: not so hard to bear with Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    morgano Bravin: I know that sometimes I want to be honest and yet it can be so hurtful to be so sometimes
    Gaya Ethaniel: It can be difficult yes ...
    Darren Islar: and it is hard to figure out if telling the 'truth' is the right thing to do
    morgano Bravin: even pointing out something imoral can look so out of place these days
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes especially when we know it may upset people.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't like upsetting people ^^;;;
    Darren Islar: :)
    Qt Core: even only responding bad, thank you to the hi how are you question is an source of weird stares ;-)
    Darren Islar: but maybe that is the question we should ask ourselves: is it about them or us?
    Gaya Ethaniel: eh really?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Italy is a friendly place I'd have thought.
    Gaya Ethaniel: relatively perhaps
    morgano Bravin: yes, I always say I am ok,,and this is not always a truth
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's true also Darren.
    Qt Core: it is, but mostly thinks that you have to put up an happy face always
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... sad to hear it.
    Darren Islar: me
    Darren Islar is looking in its pockets for a happy face
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    morgano Bravin: well, i am ok,,but like us all sometimes I may have a cold or whatever
    Gaya Ethaniel: I doubt everyone loooks happy in a morning commute train Qt?
    morgano Bravin: but I am beginning to learn ways around being honnest
    Gaya Ethaniel: There is a way around?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    morgano Bravin: I keep it to myself,,that way people wont think I am weird
    Qt Core: that's is more about being sad or a little down, just a cold is ok, it may even make you seem "heroic" for being not in bed ;-)
    Qt Core: honesty is all, once you learn to fake it ...
    Darren Islar: :)
    morgano Bravin: giggles
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: I saw this in someone's profile:
    Gaya Ethaniel: A: But I dont want to go among mad people. B: Oh, you can't help that, we're all mad here I'm mad. You're mad. A: How do you know I am mad? B: You must be, or you wouldn't have come here.
    Darren Islar: and what is being honest, hard to say
    Darren Islar: you have to be mad to get born
    Gaya Ethaniel: lol
    morgano Bravin: I think being honest is removing the false projected image one wants to give,,and to do so means discovering who you realy are irst
    morgano Bravin: first*
    Darren Islar: but what is projected and what not
    Darren Islar: sometimes it is hard to say
    Qt Core: in a weird way i think that here in sl one can be more honest than in sl
    morgano Bravin: and then acceprting how people take you when you expose your self to them
    Qt Core: last sl is rl
    Darren Islar: right QT
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's true Qt.
    Qt Core: but maybe in a cowardish way
    Gaya Ethaniel: In some incidences, I think you're right morgano.
    Gaya Ethaniel: How so Qt?
    Darren Islar: mye head is not feeling well :)
    Darren Islar: I think some sleep will help
    morgano Bravin: I think sl is a good preparation ground for discovering who you are and for practicing exposing your inner feelings
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Darren :)
    Qt Core: sleep well then Darren
    morgano Bravin: bye darren
    Darren Islar: bye
    Qt Core: that is as if i hurt someone or ruine my relationship with someone in sl i have (almost) no consequences, wheli i can't go hurting and offending people in rl (especially people like family and work bosses ) without consequences (even big ones)
    Qt Core: wheli=while
    morgano Bravin: I know what you mean QT,,this is the dificulty

    Gaya Ethaniel: Well I do try not to hurt people in SL ... but I think some people may not regard SL as equally as RL because of what you say, lack of consequences.
    morgano Bravin: but I have been putting my new self in place in rl,,there have been effects and I am glad to say that they are positive
    Qt Core: nice
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I should get going. Good night :)
    morgano Bravin: I think people see the real me and are not so distant as they would have been pressumably from lack of trust
    Gaya Ethaniel: Buona notte!
    morgano Bravin: nite Gaya
    Qt Core: good night Gaya
    Qt Core: 'Notte
    Qt Core: hi Ewan
    morgano Bravin: hello Ewan
    Qt Core: he kept coming and going all night
    morgano Bravin: must have a bad connection
    morgano Bravin: or maybe he has set here as his home tp
    Qt Core: no, he walked around like searching something, popped up here and there
    morgano Bravin: wow
    morgano Bravin: so you dont go out saturday nights in rl?
    Qt Core: me, almost never
    morgano Bravin: I thought the evenings are sociable outside in Italy?
    Qt Core: yes, it's me that is not very sociable ;-)
    morgano Bravin: :)
    morgano Bravin: same for me
    morgano Bravin: I think I am caught in a loop,,I havnt anyone to go out with so I stay in,,and because I stay in I dont meet anyone to go out with
    morgano Bravin: :)
    Qt Core: there are two more factors to consider... do you want to go out and then, with or without someone
    morgano Bravin: I do enjoy going out
    morgano Bravin: I should contact work collegues and ask them
    morgano Bravin: but feel that they would be with their families
    Qt Core: that is what in the end i do the few times i go out
    Qt Core: just last week we went out to meet a collegue of us we rarely see as she telework
    morgano Bravin: that was sweet of you
    morgano Bravin: I bet there are lots of others who like us would like to go out too,,he he
    morgano Bravin: but I also find sl fulfills my need for contact with others
    Qt Core: well, it is different from staying at home but i don't really have a preference
    morgano Bravin: the chat here and some other places is much better than what people say in rl
    Qt Core: maybe it is just as not being so used to it is always a big change in routine
    Qt Core: here you come to chat, in rl you mostly have to
    morgano Bravin: yes,,and I find rl chat so trivial
    morgano Bravin: it would be nice to find somewhere in rl where you can choose diferent discussions to join

    Qt Core: well,i choosed an astronomer amateur club as i'm interested in astronomy
    morgano Bravin: thats nice
    Qt Core: but then after the meetings there are chats with the members about almost any topics in front of some beverages
    morgano Bravin: do you use a telescope or is it all net based?
    Qt Core: i'm a not observant astronomer but mostly of the other members have one or more
    Qt Core: and it is very rl based with the net only as a medium
    morgano Bravin: how come you dont observe?
    Qt Core: i like more to read how star and other space stuff worls, for the image i have the hubble website ;-)
    morgano Bravin: what sort of things do you like to talk about (space wise)?
    morgano Bravin: yes,the hubble site is great
    morgano Bravin: some of the pictures are better than art
    morgano Bravin: spiral galxies etc
    Qt Core: having one as background at the moment ;-)
    morgano Bravin: yes?
    morgano Bravin: have u a link?
    Qt Core: let see it is more thana year that it is there
    morgano Bravin: I was looking at a star tonite,,i think it was vega
    Qt Core: lost all info when firefox converted it, sorry
    morgano Bravin: no problem, it was nice of you to look
    Qt Core: it i some dust clouds with a few glowing stars in the foreground
    morgano Bravin: sounds lovely
    morgano Bravin: a nebula?
    Qt Core: probably a star formation gas cloud
    morgano Bravin: I find it facinating but my brain wont store all the information,,so for me its just beauty to see
    morgano Bravin: I am sorry but I have to go home now
    Qt Core: sometimes is nice to stop considering the information about those pic and just enjoy them
    Qt Core: almost bedtime here too
    morgano Bravin: yes, this is what i am doing now,,although I keep up to date with idea's like spiraling black holes and chamealian matter
    morgano Bravin: ok,,see you soon QT
    Qt Core: bye morgano

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