2010.08.22 13:00 - Of dreams, Time and philosophers

    Table of contents
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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    During this session we began considering dreams and a couple of dreams were offered for thought, and later the conversation turned to dreams and Time, the notion of NoTime, and then to what some philosophers notions have been about our capacity to detect reality. 

    adoro Rhapsody: hi max
    Maxine Walden: hi, adoro
    Maxine Walden: nice to see you, I have been away
    adoro Rhapsody: same to me
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    adoro Rhapsody: hi eden
    adoro Rhapsody: wonderful oitfit
    adoro Rhapsody: outfit
    Eden Haiku: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: like cleopatra
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eden, how rather spectacular you look, Eden!!
    Maxine Walden: yes, cleopatra!
    Eden Haiku: Thanks Maxine :)
    Eden Haiku: It's more Nefertiti I would think :)
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Maxine Walden: :) ah, yes, any secrets from the past to share?
    adoro Rhapsody: you can know it
    Eden Haiku: Hummm... rather looking for secrets to unveil...
    Maxine Walden: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: there atre no secrets
    adoro Rhapsody: sre
    adoro Rhapsody: are
    Eden Haiku: oh, I see...
    Maxine Walden: :)
    adoro Rhapsody: all secrets will come open some day
    adoro Rhapsody: public
    adoro Rhapsody: known
    Maxine Walden: hmm, all will become known...
    adoro Rhapsody: some may last 50 or 75 years
    Eden Haiku: I had this strange dream a few weeks ago.
    Maxine Walden: oh, Eden?
    adoro Rhapsody: interesting

    First dream with some discussion among other threads:

    Eden Haiku: Some unknown woman was transmitting a message from my estranged sister,
    adoro Rhapsody: wow !
    Eden Haiku: The woman was very friendly, smiling.
    Eden Haiku: But the message was difficult to decipher. It was in the form of an haiku.
    Maxine Walden: intriguing...
    adoro Rhapsody: hi morgano
    Eden Haiku: The first and third lines vanished a few seconds after I woke up.
    morgano Bravin: Hi Guys
    Maxine Walden: hi, Morgano, Eden is sharing a dream...
    Eden Haiku: Hi Morgano :)
    morgano Bravin: yes? i am interested
    Eden Haiku: And I managed to take a note of the second line:
    Eden Haiku: Defile and click flexicode (unicode).
    adoro Rhapsody: ok
    Eden Haiku: Too long for a second line (should be 7 syllables in a haiku) :)
    Maxine Walden: dream ofa message from an unknown woman re an estranged sister given in haiku form
    Maxine Walden: much of the haiku disappeared upon waking...
    morgano Bravin: amazing
    Eden Haiku: Started reading about unicode on wikipedia: a vast subject. Than it lead me to hieroglyphs...
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    adoro Rhapsody: well ladies i have to go adain
    Eden Haiku: Hence the outfit :)
    adoro Rhapsody: again
    adoro Rhapsody: bye
    Eden Haiku: Bye Adoro
    Maxine Walden: bye adoro, thanks for dropping by
    morgano Bravin: bye adora
    Maxine Walden: ah, Eden, intriguing...any insights from with the Nefertitti appearance?
    morgano Bravin: ?
    Maxine Walden: wondering whether her appearance has sparked any further insights into her dream...
    Eden Haiku: Not yet, but I joined an Ancient Egyptian group and maybe things will unfold...
    Maxine Walden: :))
    Maxine Walden: If it is not too intrusive, Eden, is there an estranged sister in RL?
    Eden Haiku: Yes, that part is in RL.
    Maxine Walden: ah, my first thought, one that still lingers, is that the dream still may refer to an estranged-seeming part of the self...
    Maxine Walden: at least that is what occurs to me at first hearing
    Eden Haiku: Oh, how interesting Maxine, that might be yes...
    Eden Haiku: Loved your remark during the last time session about how we fear the unknown.
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    morgano Bravin: Hi ara
    Eden Haiku: Hello Arabella!
    Maxine Walden: hi, ara, nice to see you
    arabella Ella: Hey Eden cool outfit wow I am impressed!
    arabella Ella: lovely to see you too Maxine how are you?
    Maxine Walden: ah,...thanks, that has been something, fear the unknown, which seems to become apparent in many ways over time
    Eden Haiku: I also have a cool kneeling animation...if you ever feel like being worshipped Ara :)
    Maxine Walden: thanks, ara, I am fine, nice to be back after being away a few weeks
    arabella Ella: great to have you back with us Maxine and I hope you enjoyed your break too :)
    morgano Bravin: did you go anywhere nice maxine?
    arabella Ella: and Eden, is it transferable?
    Maxine Walden: (after the pause...)
    Eden Haiku: You were bicyling in New Bruswick I think Maxine?
    Maxine Walden: I went to the Nova Scotia retreat, which I found very wonderful. Then cycled much of Prince Edward Island with my husband Al...

    A slight misumderstanding, clarified...and some commiseration for cyclists

    arabella Ella: apologies Maxine please dont bring out your whip :)
    Eden Haiku: No transferable Ara, sorry ;(
    arabella Ella: (joking)
    arabella Ella: (except for sincere apology)
    Maxine Walden: whip?
    arabella Ella: cos the way you said 'after the pause' well wow discipline!
    morgano Bravin: that sounds wonderful maxne
    Eden Haiku: Oh, nice, did you have a nice weather for the cycling trip Maxine?
    morgano Bravin: and did your hubby go to the retreat too?
    arabella Ella: did you cycle for many hours each day then?
    Maxine Walden: ah, sorry, I was not sure about leaving Morgano's question dangling during the pause...did not mean for 'discipline'
    morgano Bravin: hey maxine,,i understood,,i felt rude for posing the qusetion just at the wrong moment :)
    arabella Ella: ah i thought it was cos i spoke
    Maxine Walden: yes, nice cool weather most of the time tho a bit humid; and yes, with flat tires :( and all we cycled maybe 6-8 hours each cycling day...a bit wearing...
    morgano Bravin: ouch on the bum
    arabella Ella: wow you must have built up both stamina and muscle strength then i am impressed
    Maxine Walden: ouch, indeed!!!
    Eden Haiku: Flat tires are no good...except for praticing being zen..

    And then back to considering dreams and dream-like experiences

    experience which triggered the question...about dreams and past/future...
    Maxine Walden: maybe we could think together...
    arabella Ella: well i am reading a book on psychics
    arabella Ella: who have premonitions or claim to have them at least
    arabella Ella: and i was wondering whether some dreams may be premonitions and what you think about this?
    arabella Ella: taking also into consideration the fact that there are some archetyal dreams in for example the bible
    morgano Bravin: the spooky thing about attaching a generality about whether past experiences can manifest themseves into a precognitive dream is that often the precognitive dream has a special flavour to it,,that seperates it from general dreams..in my opinion
    arabella Ella: interesting take on th topic morgano
    arabella Ella: ooops
    Maxine Walden: yes, various ways to view these dreams...:)
    morgano Bravin: Hi yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Maxine Walden: hi, yaku
    Bruce Mowbray: welcome, Yaku.

    And then some 'corridors' in dreams or dreams as threads of connnection...

    Eden Haiku: In connection to Time, dreams feel like connected throughout time it seems. There is some kind of bayou river where I went when I was about 10 and later in my life. Some unknown city too. It reminds me the "corridors" Eliza talks about...
    arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku
    Eden Haiku: Hello Yaku :)
    Maxine Walden: corridors, Eden, say more please?
    arabella Ella: yes Eden and some dreams repeat themselves over time too
    Bruce Mowbray: fascinating idea, Eden. please say more.
    morgano Bravin: some take you back to mysterious houses,,as if they are your home
    Eden Haiku: The way I understand Eliza's corridors is there would be passageways between different dreams we make at different times in our lives, and they are all connected like passageways...
    Maxine Walden: My own current notion is that the unconscious realm from which dreams derive, is so rich, so complex, and so relatively inaccessible except in dreams...and that dreams are one important 'thread' for access to these unconscious realms...
    Eden Haiku: Ah, yes, just one world of the vast unconscious...
    morgano Bravin: that sounds a nice package Maxine

    A direct question about the value of dreams...

    arabella Ella: so Maxine do you mean you think we can learn a lot more about our own selves when we take our dreams seriously?
    Maxine Walden: yes, perhaps a vast communal or 'collective' unconscsious...
    Eden Haiku: Ah yes, the mysterious houses Morgano....That must be a theme in our dreamlands...
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, ara, I really do think we can learn about ourselves from our dreams, and perhaps they are our best teachers...
    Eden Haiku: A representation of our selves I suppose
    Maxine Walden: yes, Eden perhaps a representation of our 'inner' selves...
    Eden Haiku: You know about the estranged part of myself from the dream we were talking earlier Maxine? I had a flash about it. I think you were right :)
    Maxine Walden: which is ever evolving, perhaps out of sight most of the time, unknown about most of the time
    Maxine Walden: ah, Eden,:)
    Bruce Mowbray is so glad that Maxine said selves instead of self.
    Maxine Walden: many selves, Bruce? it certainly seems that way to me...many selves
    Eden Haiku: Me too, feeling at ease with my mutiple-personnalities here :))
    Bruce Mowbray: me too, definitely.

    And then dreams and their possible relation to Time

    morgano Bravin: of any dream that I have had that I would class as premonitionary,,I would say that all the premonition does(as it contains no valuable insite)is that it proves to the dreamer that time is an interesting topic
    Maxine Walden: oh, me too....perhaps all of us
    Darren Islar: hi :)
    Bruce Mowbray: welcome, Darren.
    Maxine Walden: hi, Darren
    morgano Bravin: Hi Darren
    arabella Ella: but Maxine if I may play the so called devil's advocate, out of honest curiousity, would it not generally be better to simply forget dreams like horrible nighmares?
    Eden Haiku: Hello Darren :)
    Maxine Walden: very interesting thought, morgano.
    arabella Ella: Hiya Darren

    And then Bruce begins to tell us of a nitemare which plagued him years ago: (as PaBers may know Bruce is accompanied by Blub his loyal circling fish)

    Bruce Mowbray: I had the same nightmare for nine years - and awoke each time screaming.
    arabella Ella: Hiya Darren!
    morgano Bravin: there seems to be something fishy going on next to you darren
    Bruce Mowbray: You better believe I did not "forget" about it!
    Darren Islar: :)
    Eden Haiku: Oh! Do tell us the nightmare Bruce, if you like :)
    Maxine Walden: oh, many people think that, ara, 'just brush it aside, it is only a dream...'. But the potentially tragic thing (in terms of loss) is that we then brush aside one of the greatest sources of learning/ awe/ appreciation for that which we can barely otherwise understand, or so it seems to me
    Bruce Mowbray: Those are subconscious fish -- don't pay them any mind.... They've been here for a couple of days. Mickorod left them here.
    Maxine Walden: Bruce, I can empathize with your recurring nitemare. Did you get any relief?
    Bruce Mowbray: Wll, OK -- if you want to hear about it...
    Darren Islar: subconscious fish :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes -- I got wonderful relief!
    Eden Haiku: Yes, sure,.
    Bruce Mowbray: The dream began right after my father died -- I was 19.
    Maxine Walden: if you care to tell us, Bruce, but don't feel compelled if it is too private
    Bruce Mowbray: I would be practicing the piano (forced to by my mother).
    Bruce Mowbray: From both sides there would come a darkness.
    morgano Bravin: u were so young bruce,,to loose your dad
    Bruce Mowbray: I would start to suffocate with the dark... and wake up screaming.
    arabella Ella: yes how sad :(
    Bruce Mowbray: I went through several college roommates.
    arabella Ella: i can imagine
    morgano Bravin: yes?
    Bruce Mowbray: The dreams continued for nine years -- until i moved to the farm where I live now.
    Eden Haiku: Wow, darkness...
    arabella Ella: wb Yaku!
    Maxine Walden: how very sad... and since you are at the farm, no nitemares?
    Bruce Mowbray: I won't go into all the details -- except to say that once I moved to the farm (1971) the dreams stopped and have not returned in almost 40 years.
    arabella Ella: amazing
    Maxine Walden: hmm, what a relief that must have been....
    morgano Bravin: thats fantastic news Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: well -- pretty life-changing, actually.
    Eden Haiku: The dreams had been connected to the house in a way ...
    Maxine Walden: indeed
    arabella Ella: do you have any explanation for it Bruce?
    Darren Islar: yes, I can imagine

    Bruce's and others thoughts about the nitemare's meaning or function

    Bruce Mowbray: No -- the dreams were connected to my need for Freedom.
    arabella Ella: how would you figure it out?
    Eden Haiku: Oh no, because you were in college afterwards...
    Maxine Walden: care for us to gently think about the nitemares, or is it best to leave them alone, Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: The amazing things is this:
    Eden Haiku: No wonder you love your hermitage :)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I didn't realize it when I moved to the farm in Ohio (from Berkeley, Calif.) -
    morgano Bravin: this is a classic case of needing to listen to your dreams I guess
    arabella Ella nods
    Bruce Mowbray: but my mother later told me that that was the very same years my father had planned to retire and move to this same farm.
    Bruce Mowbray: year.
    Darren Islar: that's a weird coincidence (if it is a coincidence)
    Maxine Walden: how very astonishing...how do you connect these things, Bruce?
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- well, mostly I just accept the goodness of it all.
    Maxine Walden: grateful for the goodness...
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, gratitude.
    Maxine Walden: very nice
    Darren Islar: sometimes it is hard to tell what happened, but the fact it happened is enough for your (fishy :)) subconsciousness
    morgano Bravin: I was wondering something,,if one reaches a state of death or near death,,and one see's their life before them,,then recovers,,is it not likely they would have a glimse of life to come?
    arabella Ella: interesting idea
    Eden Haiku: Were you and your father already connected to that area Bruce?
    Maxine Walden: perhaps gaining freedom got linked up with some reconciliation ...
    Bruce Mowbray: No, we were not connected.
    Bruce Mowbray: The piano/mother/darkness/screaming came to "mean" entrapment.
    Darren Islar: not according to buddhism
    morgano Bravin: I do suspect that destiny may be geneticaly linked
    Eden Haiku: Its an amazing synchronicity Bruce. Like carrying some of your father wishes, did it feel something like that?
    Bruce Mowbray: The farm came to "mean" Freedom.
    Bruce Mowbray: I went to two psychic readers to try to clear up the connection with dad's plans.
    arabella Ella: yes Bruce I can understand and I think your nightmare is linked to a person who you mentioned at i ching the other day who wrote about dreams too but i cannot recall his name
    Eden Haiku: oh!
    morgano Bravin: maybe there is genetic entropy
    Bruce Mowbray: thinking that somehow I was living out his dreams instead of my own life.
    arabella Ella: he had said that the meaning is in the details of the dream
    Bruce Mowbray: Both readers emphatically affirmed that this was MY life - not his.
    Eden Haiku: Or maybe he was leading you on a path known to him to the best place for you :)
    Bruce Mowbray: I would like to think that - and I reaised that question with one of the psychics...
    arabella Ella: i dont think so
    Bruce Mowbray: but he raised his voice and said, "WHAT YOU ARE DOING HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR FATHER!"
    arabella Ella: exactly i agree
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks, ara.
    arabella Ella: you were young, only 19, impressed after having experienced death at close hand and ...
    arabella Ella: your context and situation were such that they were like an entrapment situation which you had to get out of somehow
    Darren Islar: maybe it is just the moving out of your old home that brought the change
    arabella Ella: t6hat's my take
    Bruce Mowbray: (actually, my dad was 1000 miles away from me when he died)... but I knew he was dead before i got my mother's call telling me he'd died suddenl;y of a heart attack.
    arabella Ella: you must have been like a square peg in a round hold metaphorically speaking
    Darren Islar: yes, that seems to happen
    Bruce Mowbray: The entrapment of my childhood was experienced on different levels when I became an adult... but it was still there.
    arabella Ella: exactly
    Bruce Mowbray: The dream kept pushing it foreward.
    arabella Ella nods
    Bruce Mowbray: until I took care of business, so to speak.
    Darren Islar: :)
    arabella Ella: yes
    Bruce Mowbray feels that he is talking too much and vows to shut up and let others speak now.
    arabella Ella: LOL
    Maxine Walden: I think you are providing us with so much to think about, Bruce.
    arabella Ella: we enjoy listening to you Bruce
    Maxine Walden: We are grateful to you
    morgano Bravin: I am grateful for your ords bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    morgano Bravin: words*
    Bruce Mowbray: thank you for listening so kindly.
    Eden Haiku: Very dark and rainy day here. There is fire in the fireplace, I think I will go sit by the fire. Thanks for sharing about the nightmares Bruce, thanks for the conversation everyone, thank you Maxine for the insight about the 'unicode' dream :)
    morgano Bravin: bye eden
    Maxine Walden: bye Eden
    Bruce Mowbray: thanks, eden. Bye!
    morgano Bravin: take care
    Maxine Walden: :), perhaps a conversation aiding all of us...amidst trust and sharing
    Bruce Mowbray: and gratitude.
    Darren Islar: Bye Eden (for the record)
    Maxine Walden: yes, :)
    Maxine Walden: I will need to go soon, as well, and thinking of the theme of today perhaps being about trust, sharing, gratitude about the lessons gleanable from the dream...from these glimpses of the unconscious realm...
    Maxine Walden: Will be off, and grateful for this discussion.
    Maxine Walden: bye all
    morgano Bravin: bye maxine
    Darren Islar: bye Maxine
    arabella Ella: bye Maxine and thanks!
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Maxine. Thank you.

    The conversation pursues dreams and Time, and the concept of NoTime

    Bruce Mowbray: Did the question about dreams and time ever get answered?
    morgano Bravin: not this century Bruce
    morgano Bravin: :)
    Darren Islar: you never know :)
    arabella Ella: well the question about dreams and time is even more interesting when one listens to what Pema has to say on 'No Time'
    Bruce Mowbray: It originally was arabella's question:
    Bruce Mowbray: do you think dreams provide a glimpse of the past or of the future? [13:23] arabella Ella: (assuming that there is Time and not No-Time!)
    morgano Bravin: can u say more of what Pema said Ara?
    arabella Ella: ah i dont think i can say it half as well as he does in the videos we were given links to
    arabella Ella: any one else know more about it please?
    Darren Islar: sorry no
    morgano Bravin: would you have the link for mr ara,,i dont get them sent to me
    arabella Ella: oh
    arabella Ella: i will try to look for it later morgano as I would have to sift through tons of emails

    Bruce summarizes Pema's notions of NoTime

    Bruce Mowbray: I do not wish to speak for Pema. . . but, I think he point was not that there is No Time . . .
    arabella Ella: and will give it to you when i next see you
    arabella Ella: please go on Bruce ...
    Bruce Mowbray: but rather about our EXPERIENCE -- and we only experience the present.
    Bruce Mowbray: all our memories are simply present experience.
    Bruce Mowbray: that sort of thing.
    morgano Bravin: do you mean there is 'NO TIME'?,,or do you mean there isno'TIME'?
    arabella Ella: but Bruce Pema also has an experiment where we are asked to drop 'time'
    arabella Ella: and of course time is still one big mystery
    Bruce Mowbray: say more about that experiment, please.
    arabella Ella: ah i dont feel competent
    arabella Ella: maybe Yaku if he is listening?
    arabella Ella: why are none of the 'experts' here tonight?
    arabella Ella: (more competent than ara surely)
    Bruce Mowbray: what we "drop" is all of our presuppositions. . .
    morgano Bravin: Ara, we have confidence in you
    Bruce Mowbray: and one of those is that there is such a thing as "time".
    arabella Ella: honestly i feel totally incompetent and would not know where to begin
    arabella Ella: but if you have a look at the PaB wiki you are sure to find Pema explaining it all very nicely

    In the groups searching, Bruce offers another summary thought:

    Bruce Mowbray: So, "Notime" is the position in consciousness of being here and now - without the presupposition of there having been a past or will be a future.
    Bruce Mowbray: their having been...
    morgano Bravin: watching a river flow and seeing the eddies,,or vortexes is useful
    Bruce Mowbray: yes, usefull indeed, but all of that occurs in present time (Time having been dropped).
    Bruce Mowbray: Time having been dropped).
    Darren Islar: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time
    Darren Islar: if there is something like a present
    Darren Islar: if there is no future or past, why would there be a present?
    arabella Ella: thanks for the link Darren
    Bruce Mowbray: we have this appearance rising. . . That is what we call "present."
    morgano Bravin: thankyou Darren,,for the link
    Darren Islar: yes but in the perspective of no-time, it is probably a different 'present' then we experience
    Bruce Mowbray feels lost with this -- unless sheer appearance is "present."
    Darren Islar: well, I guess the only thing I want to say that if there is no concept of future and past, then what is the concept of present
    Darren Islar: somehow to me that doesn't make sense
    morgano Bravin: can we hold the experience of dropping for more than a few minutes?
    Darren Islar: a lot of teachers say it can be done, but they don't talk about dropping everything
    Darren Islar: they talk about awareness
    Darren Islar: which is quite different
    morgano Bravin: for example,,say Pema can experience no-time,,what happens when he needs to catch a train ?,,does he have to revert back to reality as we all know it?
    Darren Islar: I don't think that is the way it works

    Other thoughts about NoTime

    arabella Ella: i may be wrong but i tend to get the feeling that 'no time' is an elevated state of consciousness like being 'beyond and above time'
    Darren Islar: you can consciousely loose track of time
    arabella Ella: yes and through meditation even more so
    Darren Islar: but no-time is not the same as no time
    morgano Bravin: a period can become timeless,,or detached from notions of time,,
    Darren Islar: yes, but to me that is more a perception of time
    arabella Ella: ah Storm, Stim or Pema would be able to explain all this so easily
    morgano Bravin: but I cannot understand the posibilities of working outside the constarints of the watch
    Darren Islar: a psychological awareness of time, that can be different then what the clock shows us
    arabella Ella: and Bruce I am not sure whether you are familiar with what St Augustine wrote about time but he also said that the present is very fleeting and we can never captture it as by the time we try it is gone into the past
    Darren Islar: and actually is more important to us then the clock
    Darren Islar: nor can I Morgana
    Darren Islar: Morgano
    morgano Bravin: but do we have a psychological awareness of time?
    arabella Ella: yes we do
    arabella Ella: of the passing flow of events
    arabella Ella: of sequence
    Darren Islar: yes, we do't live by the clock, we never did
    Darren Islar: sometimes we take a look at it to see what the time is
    Darren Islar: that is all
    Bruce Mowbray: Wouldn't it be interesting to go for a week or two with NO time-pieces? Then, perhaps, we would discover the psychogical time that Darren is talking about.
    arabella Ella: i sometimes do Bruce
    Bruce Mowbray: wonderful! How is that working out?
    morgano Bravin: I am sure we will still be thinking of how much of the week has passed
    arabella Ella: especially when on vacation
    arabella Ella: it is much less stressful than living with 'a time piece'
    Darren Islar: sure, but those are little moments in an ocean of moments where we don't remember the time
    arabella Ella: and i dont wear a wrrist watch havent done so for years
    Darren Islar: me neither :)
    morgano Bravin: I loose track of the day,,or even the month,,but I am still aware of whether its lunch time or bedtime
    morgano Bravin: Ara,,u must work to timetables
    Darren Islar: because that is our habit
    morgano Bravin: appointments etc
    arabella Ella: the only thing is that unless one is really on vacation one still has 'the time' in one's car, one's computer, one's mobile phone
    Darren Islar: there are rythms, patterns
    arabella Ella: i dont always work to time tables morgano
    Bruce Mowbray: Since i am retired and a hermit, I have little use of clocks except to tell me when PaB sessions are about to happen.
    arabella Ella: i can sometimes be flexible
    morgano Bravin: I bet you do
    arabella Ella: :)
    morgano Bravin: even if its subtle
    Darren Islar: and because of those rhythms, my guess is that there are different quailities of time
    arabella Ella nods
    Darren Islar: there might be a time we can measure
    Bruce Mowbray hopes he can get into the rhythm of PaB sessions.
    Darren Islar: we look at the clock, which gives us information about the time we live in
    Darren Islar: we listen to our body if it is hungry, which is btw different in summer then in winter
    arabella Ella: well has anyone here ever experienced waking up a minute or two before the alarm clock goes off even though it is not set for the usual wake up time?
    Bruce Mowbray thinks that Yaku might have achieved No Time.
    Darren Islar: we have a psychogical timeframe in which we can loose track of time completely
    Darren Islar: and maybe there is also no-time, I don't know
    arabella Ella: brb
    morgano Bravin: I can see the practicability of removing stress from worrying about time and deadlines etc
    morgano Bravin: that is a possibility
    Darren Islar: that canbe a result yes
    Bruce Mowbray: @ arabella: I ALWAYS wake up a couple of minutes before the alarm --- WHY is that!!???
    morgano Bravin: and i can understand the desire to unlock elements of time
    Darren Islar: habit Bruce ?
    Bruce Mowbray: I don't think it is habit -- I might set the alarm once or twice a year -- only when I have to catch an early flight or something like that.
    Darren Islar: well, this question is not about elements, it is a question about the whole 'thing'
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently to Darren.
    Darren Islar: yes, but to me Bruce, time excists
    morgano Bravin: lets say that we live in all time,,that is present now,,that would mean our life would be over in a flash
    Bruce Mowbray: for me too, Darren.
    Darren Islar: otherwise I don't know where those patterns we live in and make are coming from
    Bruce Mowbray: I have a firm mental construct that time exists as a "reality."
    Bruce Mowbray: I agree with you.
    Darren Islar: well I think more things can excist at the same time
    Darren Islar: hmm, talking about time :)
    Darren Islar: but I can, to a certain extend, explain time as reality
    Darren Islar: no-time is a mistery to me, but that doesn't mean it doesn't excist
    morgano Bravin: I can only imagine that we live in a single conciousness of everything,,and that its at a quantum state,,we then experience some of those events percieved in a linear fashion
    Bruce Mowbray: Are you saying (with the quantum physicists) that all times can exist at the same time?
    Darren Islar: but one thing I do think and that is that there is not static no-time
    morgano Bravin: yes
    Darren Islar: no empty no-time
    Darren Islar: a not moving no-time
    Darren Islar: I don't think that excist

    Arabella brings in the philosopher Emmanuel Kant 

    arabella Ella: may i introduce some philosophy here?
    Bruce Mowbray: So "time" (taken in the largest possible sense) is more of a sphere than a point or a line?
    arabella Ella: the one and only Immanuel Kant
    Bruce Mowbray: please do, ara.
    Darren Islar: because if that would excist, we wouldnt be breathing
    morgano Bravin: well,,I feel that there is no actual time other than our own perception of it
    arabella Ella: well Kant said that we perceive things through sort of spectacles
    Darren Islar: maybe so Bruce, I don't know
    arabella Ella: he called it forms of sensibility
    Bruce Mowbray listens intently to ara.
    arabella Ella: and he claimed that the human mind is so constructed so as to only be able to perceive within the 'forms' of space and time
    arabella Ella: it was called the copernican revolution in philosophy
    arabella Ella: that's it if it makes sense to you?
    Bruce Mowbray: Where do the "forms" come from?
    arabella Ella: they are how our brain is constructed
    arabella Ella: like the spectacles of our brain
    arabella Ella: analogously of course
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Darren Islar: of course :)
    Bruce Mowbray thinks his brain might be near-sighted -- like Mr. Magoo.
    arabella Ella: and that may be why you are both saying that you believe in time and that you cannot imagine anything outside space or time
    arabella Ella: just try to imagine anything you wish outside space and time
    morgano Bravin: just say,,for sake of a discussion,,that just one person see'sinto the future,,just once and prooves it,,then that one event would open up the fact that time is and has always existed now
    arabella Ella: Kant said it is impossible
    arabella Ella: sorry morgano my last comment was not in response to yours
    Darren Islar: yes, but he didn't say it isn't there, and that aspect is intruiging
    morgano Bravin: thats ok
    morgano Bravin: I am mad anyway :)
    arabella Ella: well people had previously believed that space and time exist outside the human mind and Kant reversed this idea
    arabella Ella: he said they dont exist 'independently'
    Darren Islar: yes, he ways we are nog capable of doing so, interesting
    morgano Bravin: are you familiar with descartes too Ara?
    arabella Ella: yes morgano
    Bruce Mowbray: Well. . . this "Copernican revolution" sounds to me like it has simply laced the human brain in the center where the sun used to be.
    Bruce Mowbray: placed.
    Darren Islar: I think Morgano, Ara knows a lot about philosophy :)
    morgano Bravin: ok,,what was his take re the conciousness and subconciousness?
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: yes Bruce that is why it was called Kant's copernican revolution
    Darren Islar: hmmmm, nice parallel Bruce
    arabella Ella: our brains make us perceive stuff the way we do
    arabella Ella: he had other ideas too about things
    morgano Bravin: wasnt iyt that the subconcious is a common conciousness for all,,and the conciousness that only of the body?
    arabella Ella: and he claimed we can never know things as they are in themselves
    Darren Islar: but in those days copernicus made clear that the universe was bigger then just the earth
    arabella Ella: could you repeat please morgano i dont understand what you mean?
    Darren Islar: so he added new space to our concept
    arabella Ella: well what Kant's ideas boild down to
    arabella Ella: is that the human mind perceives the way it does due to how it is structured and we can never know how things really are
    morgano Bravin: ok,,we are exposed to two forms of conciousness,,the concious that is part of our body,,and the subconcious that is outside of our body and is common to us all yet constarined by the bodily concious
    Bruce Mowbray: wow -- Are you guys sharing my sub-conscious?
    arabella Ella: well morgano Descartes divided everything into the physical and the mental and we are suffering the repercussions of that until today
    Darren Islar: heheh
    morgano Bravin: yea,,why not
    morgano Bravin: untiltoday?
    Bruce Mowbray: Then you could be having my dreams....?
    morgano Bravin: I may be
    morgano Bravin: are they usually rude?
    morgano Bravin: :)

    More philosophers and other thinkers...

    arabella Ella: it was Hegel who believed in a collective consciousness which he called 'Geist' which is often translated as 'Spirit' but it is not a 100 percent correct translation
    Darren Islar: I wouldn't be surprised if all our thoughts aren't new, and has been there for a long time
    Darren Islar: in that case we are more like a medium
    morgano Bravin: that sounds plausable darren
    Bruce Mowbray: Sounds like Jungian collective unconscious.
    arabella Ella: now that we are into philosophy (I cant help this) Derrida said that everything has already been written he was a post modernist
    Darren Islar: Kant's spectalce
    arabella Ella: Jung was a psychologist, Hegel was a philosopher
    morgano Bravin: was he suffi too?
    morgano Bravin: derrida?
    Darren Islar: like we are a piece of glass that is focussing certain thoughts and feelings
    arabella Ella: Jacques Derrida, died a few years ago, born in Algeria, French, taught at the Sorbonne
    Darren Islar: like a filter
    arabella Ella: yes
    Darren Islar: so, what happens if you take away the filter?
    arabella Ella: i dont think he was sufi morgano quite a few of the philosophers from previous centuries had to be careful about their beliefs as they were scared they would be burnt at the stake so many of them had christian eliefs
    Darren Islar: maybe Kant is right and we can't do that
    arabella Ella: you can never tell what will happen if you take away the filter it would have to be possible
    morgano Bravin: I need a visit,,back in a mom
    arabella Ella: it may be possible i dont know we will have to wait and see
    Bruce Mowbray senses an undertone of determinism with Hegel and Derrida.
    arabella Ella: but concerning time dont forget that Einstein's theory of relativity also demonstrated that time moves at different rhythms depending on where you are located, on earth or in space (if i remember correctly)
    arabella Ella: Hegel was a determinist to some extent he also wrote about the cyclical nature of history
    arabella Ella: Derrida was not he was pretty subversive about everything
    arabella Ella: Derrida enjoyed upsetting the status quo
    Bruce Mowbray: Derrida said that everything has already been written.
    Bruce Mowbray: sounds pretty deterministic to me.
    arabella Ella: he meant it was no longer possible to be as creative as we thought we could be somehow
    arabella Ella: but he is not an easy philosopher to understand or to explain either
    Bruce Mowbray: What do you think Derrida would have thoght of Play as Being --- (joke).?
    Darren Islar: or it is very liberating Bruce
    arabella Ella: Derrida enjoyed playing, playing with ideas, upsetting the conservatives with his playing
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-) That is my experience, to be sure.
    Darren Islar: depends on the angle you look at it
    morgano Bravin: bac
    Bruce Mowbray: wb, morgano.
    Darren Islar: think of the reservoir there is we can take advantage of, if we take away the filter
    Bruce Mowbray: oh wow! Now THAT is a liberating idea!
    morgano Bravin: just a thought,,if another inteligence locks into the www web and see's us as electronic communications,,they would see us as linked to a common conciousness,,but our individual abgorythms would single us out as individuals
    Bruce Mowbray: perhaps single us out as sub-routines of a common program.
    morgano Bravin: maybe
    Darren Islar: I like the metaphor :)
    morgano Bravin: but would they not think how odd it is that we dont know everything
    Darren Islar: :)
    Bruce Mowbray: No sub-routine knows the entire program.
    Bruce Mowbray: (only fractals know the entire body they are parts of).
    morgano Bravin: also ,,what value would time have,,when hose individuals are linked to a static knowledge
    Bruce Mowbray: Derrida might be happy to hear that.
    morgano Bravin: well,,are we not fractal?
    Bruce Mowbray: Are you saying that my little finger knows the entire body? -- on a level of the DNA molecule, perhaps so.
    Darren Islar: but having all knowledge, doesn't mean nothing changes
    Darren Islar: like lego
    Darren Islar: you take everything apart and make something new
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Buddhist impermanence?
    Darren Islar: :) probably
    arabella Ella: our knowledge once again is linked to the way the human brain is structured
    morgano Bravin: sorry,,distactions in rl
    arabella Ella: fraid i gtg
    arabella Ella: enjoyed this chat with you thanks
    arabella Ella: bye for now
    morgano Bravin: bye ara
    Darren Islar: bye Ara
    Bruce Mowbray: I'd like to think that it also works the other way: that our knowledge (or means of deriving it) actually causes brain structures to change.
    Darren Islar: need to go too, midnight here
    Bruce Mowbray: This can be proved by neuro-science, btw.
    arabella Ella: good night and maybe Pema will see this chat and come set us straight about no time!
    morgano Bravin: nite te darren
    Bruce Mowbray: bye, ara and darren. THANK YOU!
    morgano Bravin: giggles
    Darren Islar: well, I would like to talk more, but it is really late
    Bruce Mowbray: we understand. Good night and thanks!
    Darren Islar: but I liked the session :)
    Darren Islar: bye :)
    morgano Bravin: me too
    Bruce Mowbray: me too.
    morgano Bravin: bye,,i must go too
    Bruce Mowbray: I wonder how Yaku feels about it.
    morgano Bravin: bye everyone
    Bruce Mowbray: Ok morgano.
    Bruce Mowbray: Good night and thasnks!
    morgano Bravin: c u soon,,God bless


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