2010.08.24 13:00 - Metaphor is a mountain

The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia. This session was attended by Bolonath, Bruce, adoro, Qt, and myself. During this session, we discussed the use of words without understanding them through experience, spiritual metaphor as a map, and letting yourself be seen.

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bolonath, how wonderful to see you :)
Bolonath Crystal: namaste sophia :)
Bolonath Crystal: hm, there is something wrong... i have to log in again
Bolonath Crystal: brb
SophiaSharon Larnia: ok :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Zon :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: welcome back Bolonath
Bolonath Crystal: thank you :)
Bolonath Crystal: much better now ...
SophiaSharon Larnia: I dont recall seeing you a session this slt :) But I haven't been coming here as much as I had
Bolonath Crystal: i'm not often here, too
Bolonath Crystal: lot of samsara :D
SophiaSharon Larnia: I like to take breaks, talking about some things alot seem to circle them in your head sometimes
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I attended a talk by a lama yesterday, where he said we can't become enlightened by using language
Bolonath Crystal: hm... let's say not by talking alone
Bolonath Crystal: language can be a helpful tool
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi adoo, hi Bruce
adoro Rhapsody: hi all
SophiaSharon Larnia: adoro ** sorry :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello!
Bolonath Crystal: but of course the process of enlightenment is considered to be nonverbal
Bolonath Crystal: hello :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i beleive it is also Bolonath, I saw it as a bit of a predicament
SophiaSharon Larnia: Bruce and adoro, I just said: I attended a talk by a lama yesterday, where he said we can't become enlightened by using language, we were talking about that
Bolonath Crystal: i think, maybe he wanted to express, that enlightenment is not something to learn, but something to do
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bolonath Crystal: or better: something to "not-do" ;)
Bruce Mowbray: thanks, Sharon.
Bolonath Crystal: wei wu-wei
adoro Rhapsody: or not to catch in words
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods thoughtfully
adoro Rhapsody: but more in feelings
adoro Rhapsody: or emotions
SophiaSharon Larnia: to not use language but to hear
Bolonath Crystal: buddhists talk about "realisation"
adoro Rhapsody: enlightment as a state of mind

--BELL--

SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
Bolonath Crystal: in the yoga vedanta we learn about four states of the mind:
adoro Rhapsody: that's another enlightment as the knowledge enlightment in the middle ages
Bolonath Crystal: deep sleep, dream sleep, wake state and the "fourth state", turiya
adoro Rhapsody: ok i sleep talked a few nights ago
adoro Rhapsody: instead of sleepwalked
Bolonath Crystal: is it another enlightenment or just another way to enlightenment?
SophiaSharon Larnia: im listening, Im thinking of something that doesnt change
adoro Rhapsody: at he 7.00 pm session of pab
adoro Rhapsody: ok another way of enlightment
SophiaSharon Larnia: I cant answer that, I feel there are more than one way
adoro Rhapsody: still another way of enlightment by fysical weight is when u dont need books buut can all look up in wikipedia
Bolonath Crystal: :D
adoro Rhapsody: so pupils dont have to carry heavy bags with books
Bolonath Crystal: i never looked up "enlightenment" in wiki *g*
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bolonath Crystal: according to the yoga vedanta there are several ways - techniques - to enlightenment: bhakti-yoga (devotion), raja-yoga (meditation), karma-yoga (fulfilling certain actions) and jnana-yoga (philosophy). so there is a place for words in jnana-yoga
Bolonath Crystal: buddhism conncentrates in karma- and raja-yoga, technically spoken
SophiaSharon Larnia: he was also challenging us to look at the phrases we use, habitually we 'look in the book' and use those words without really understanding what they mean as experience
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Bolonath Crystal: yes!
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bolonath Crystal: some time ago i talked with some friends about taking refuge
Bolonath Crystal: so many simply repeat the words without actually realising what they are talking about
adoro Rhapsody: sure
adoro Rhapsody: we dont have time for enlightment it seems
SophiaSharon Larnia: I was answering his questions that way at first, when he asked questions, before I knew what the point was
SophiaSharon Larnia: so it was very useful
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: well i have to go tomorrow heavy day on work
adoro Rhapsody: bye
adoro Rhapsody: all
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye adoro :)
adoro Rhapsody: gooed night
Bolonath Crystal: bye adoro
Bruce Mowbray: be well, adoro. good to see you again.
SophiaSharon Larnia: Bruce is really waving goodbye!
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: I love these animations.
Bolonath Crystal: i like the namaste gesture :)
Bolonath Crystal: yes, this one
SophiaSharon Larnia: me too haha
SophiaSharon Larnia: namaste
Bruce Mowbray: One reason I come to PaB is to hear fresh metaphors ....
Bruce Mowbray: expecially for things like "enlightenment."
Bruce Mowbray: especially.
SophiaSharon Larnia: thats the thing with language, you can explain anything with a metaphor
Bolonath Crystal: there are many of them in indian literature :)
Bruce Mowbray: oh yes.
Bolonath Crystal: it is also very intersting how some of these metaphors interfere with other religions
Bruce Mowbray: but what I means is, to hear metaphors that Pabbers have created outof their own experience.
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods@ both :)
Bolonath Crystal: hehe, well, in 2000 years our wikipage will possibly replace the bible ;))
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: *gasps*
SophiaSharon Larnia: heheh
Bruce Mowbray: recently I've been using the metaphor of "wheel" -- both in discussions here and in my own RL practice.

--BELL--

Bolonath Crystal: universe is always ready for a joke
SophiaSharon Larnia: I've recently been reading that in the logs, Bruce, and seeing them too ^^ As well as your references to Inception, which I havent seen yet :)
Bruce Mowbray: for me, spiritual metaphors are a bit like maps for the mind.
Bolonath Crystal nods
Bolonath Crystal: that's how i see it, too
Bruce Mowbray: they might assist in finding one's way home. . .
Bolonath Crystal: indeed. and non of them is more "true" than any other
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Bolonath, that's why I enjoy the fresh experiential metaphors that Pabbers generate. . .
Bolonath Crystal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: we're a metaphor machine alright
Bruce Mowbray: each comes out of that individual's won experience -- and can probably be relied upon, somewhat, for finding that individual's way home.
Bruce Mowbray: own experience.
Bolonath Crystal: nothing has as many names as the unnameable ;)
Bruce Mowbray: That's for sure!
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
SophiaSharon Larnia: and sometimes make up words :D
Bolonath Crystal: but as the dao de king says: if you can give it a name it is not the dao
SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
Bruce Mowbray: within the map's structure (metaphorical architecture) one can find dynamics that can be of assistance. . .
Bruce Mowbray: for example, with my metaphor of the wheel. . .
Bruce Mowbray: it "works" for me to tell myself, "You are now way out on the rim. Get back to the hub."
SophiaSharon Larnia thinks of the lunatic fringe, and thinks that comment is out of place
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Qt :)
Qt Core: hi all
Bolonath Crystal: namaste qt :)
Bruce Mowbray: it really does feel like a "lunatic fringe," sometimes, Sharon.
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Bruce Mowbray: welcome, Qt.
SophiaSharon Larnia: we're talking about using metaphors to describe our experiences, Qt
Qt Core: in some form we use them for everything
Bruce Mowbray: I've also used the metaphor of a comet. . . orbiting its sun . . . and having to go WAYYYYYY out into the darkness before it lets itself be pulled back in.
SophiaSharon Larnia: I do know that talking about something too much, using too many metaphors, will bring me to that wavy fringe, if I don't look at what's happening
Bruce Mowbray: absolutely. . . and there's the irony in ALL so-called spiritual language.
Bruce Mowbray: The map is not the territory.
Bolonath Crystal: i like to compare the spiritual path with a walk in the mountains. sometimes it is going up, sometimes down, but always forwards
Bruce Mowbray: wonderful!
SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes Ive sat down
SophiaSharon Larnia: tired :)
Bruce Mowbray: and full of beautiful surprises!
Qt Core: but in very hard passage where the path is very tight you may have to go sideways ;-)
Bolonath Crystal: well, who doesn't, sophia? :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: and sometimes walk in circles.
Bruce Mowbray: and sometimes take a sip from a cool creek.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, sitting down and looking around can reveal some things
Bruce Mowbray thinks: This is Bolonath's metaphor. . . not mine, but I like it very much.
Bolonath Crystal: sometimes we have to stop and look around to become aware of where we are and where to go
Bolonath Crystal: and use metaphors :)
Qt Core: does anyone have a soul gps ?
SophiaSharon Larnia: ha!
Qt Core: ;)
Bolonath Crystal: :D
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that I do, Qt.
Bolonath Crystal: kind of
Bruce Mowbray: sort of like a compass - but multidimentional.
Bolonath Crystal: conscience
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Bruce Mowbray: or, for me, a sense of getting lost.

--BELL--

Qt Core: in the end everybody has one (or he would not be able to live) but i was just kidding
Bruce Mowbray: Someone pointed out to me the other day that there are two "north's." One toward the north pole, and the other toward a lot of magnetized iron under Greenland.
SophiaSharon Larnia: a soul gps like an instinct
Bruce Mowbray: She said she would rather steer by the "inner stuff" - not true north.
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps she was talking about "instinct"
SophiaSharon Larnia: I think so, following a true self
SophiaSharon Larnia: rather than what someone else says
Bruce Mowbray: yes, indeed. and that might sometimes be different for what others say is "true north."
Bruce Mowbray: from what...
Bolonath Crystal: "true" is always a kind of definition. many times when i hear people debating about "truths" i found out that they are debating about completely different things
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, that is 'true' :D
Bolonath Crystal smiles
Bruce Mowbray: yes, and often getting really worked up about it, too.
Bolonath Crystal: yep
Bolonath Crystal: starting wars and things
Bolonath Crystal: who was the first to say "there is only one truth"?
Qt Core: sometimes a war (even if only on personal scale) is easyer than even only accept the idea of other ideas being right
Bolonath Crystal: yes, seems so
Bruce Mowbray: many pathways around that mountain.
Bruce Mowbray: also, when actually hiking on the mountain, one cannot see the mountain to be a mountain, often.
Bolonath Crystal: i always find it fascinating to see things in a different way
Bolonath Crystal: it enlarges my inner horizon :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: with my metaphor of the wheel and the hub -- I enjoy have the hub become larger and larger -- and eventually it embraces all the spokes.
Bruce Mowbray: (and the pathways into itself).
Bruce Mowbray: all of the pathways.

Bruce Mowbray: Do you sometimes let yoursel be SEEN in different ways, Bolonath?
Bolonath Crystal: by myself, you mean?
Bruce Mowbray: (We're using that exercise in the Time Magic group).
Bruce Mowbray: well, just letting whatever wants to see you, actually see you.
Bolonath Crystal: sometimes
Bolonath Crystal: not always
Bruce Mowbray: Pema's instruction is to "come out of hiding and let yourself be seen" - and that means a whole lot of different things to different people.
SophiaSharon Larnia: it's been a very interesting series of sessions
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, it has.
SophiaSharon Larnia: and I've found the practice this week a lot easier than last
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Sharon, I missed the assignment for this week -- Is it the same as last week's?
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :)
Bruce Mowbray: thank you!
SophiaSharon Larnia: that first week I was a mess
Bruce Mowbray: me too!!!
Qt Core: more than wear mask i think that we use various color of optical filters for letting out only some part or ourselves
SophiaSharon Larnia: felt better almost the minute that last session ended, I think it was just knowing I wasnt the only one, that was enough
Bruce Mowbray: good point, Qt.
Bruce Mowbray: me too, Sharon.
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Qt :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yea, it was kind of weird
Bruce Mowbray: I vow never to read the reports until after I've written and posted my own. . .
Bruce Mowbray: ands this week I felt really weird about mine. . .

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: but it turned out that several of us were having troubles.
SophiaSharon Larnia: well, I've been busy and didn't have a chance before he weeks before
Bolonath Crystal: what kind of things are that, these "myselfs" and "ourselves"?
SophiaSharon Larnia was picture some really cool glasses, steampunk -like, with 100's of filters like camera
Bolonath Crystal: what do i let be seen if i show "myself"?
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods, I was thinking of the what is this self question also
SophiaSharon Larnia: part of the ackk!
Bolonath Crystal: another metaphor? ;)
Bruce Mowbray: Chances are pretty good that what you THINK you're letting others see is not the same thing that they ARE seeing.
Bolonath Crystal: i'm quite sure about that, bruce
Qt Core: me too
SophiaSharon Larnia: well, thats kind of scary
Bruce Mowbray: I said "you" but of course, I was talking about myself.
Qt Core: if we attain perfect comunication i think it would be boring
Bolonath Crystal: everyone creates another bolonath in his/her personal universe, when i let myself be seen (or whoever else)
Bolonath Crystal: hehe, i rather think that would be shocking, qt ;)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Qt Core: yes, in the beginning surely ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: The Time Magic exercise is "interesting -- It is OUR experience of letting ourselves be seen. . . not what others (or Nature, in my case) actually sees.
Bruce Mowbray: so there is a sort of "boomerang" effect.
SophiaSharon Larnia: (brb)
Qt Core: with only your reaction pn being yourself, not others reactions ?
Bolonath Crystal: it is our experience anyway (as the "others" are our experience, too)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, it's still "our" experience - and our awareness of appearances.
Bolonath Crystal: good to know, that the world outside and "ourselves" are both experiences of "our self" :)
Bolonath Crystal: that'S advaita vedanta *g*
Bruce Mowbray: yes, like "letting" the mirror "see" you. . . and then what do you see in the mirror?
SophiaSharon Larnia: back, and yes Qt, your reaction
Bolonath Crystal: ah, what a mindbuggling imagination, bruce... :))
SophiaSharon Larnia: thats one way to look at it
Bruce Mowbray: I'm mind-bungled myself often!
Bruce Mowbray: most of the time, in fact.
Bruce Mowbray: Bolanath, it is good to meet you - and I hope you'll return to the fountain soon.
Bruce Mowbray: I am now off to climb a couple of mountains...
Bolonath Crystal: yep, tomorrow 1 am
SophiaSharon Larnia: mind-bungled like being lost, but i used to really enjoy the feeling of being lost, in no hurry to go anywhere
Bruce Mowbray: May all be well and happy.
Bolonath Crystal: have a good time, bruce
Bolonath Crystal: om shanti
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bruce! Be careful :D
Qt Core: have fun bruce
Bolonath Crystal: that a great way to look at it, sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles, I haven't thought of it for a while
SophiaSharon Larnia: I do have to go too, rl is calling me :D
Bolonath Crystal: it always works :)
Bolonath Crystal: well, yes, me too
SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bolonath, hope to see you again soon
Qt Core: bye then i only have the bed calling me ;-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Qt ave fun :))
Bolonath Crystal: bye, om shanti
SophiaSharon Larnia: sweet dreams :)
Bolonath Crystal: Hey!
Qt Core: bye