2010.08.26 13:00 - (lucid) dream

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Lia Rikugun: hello hana
Hana Furlough: Hi Lia
Lia Rikugun: how are you doind?
Hana Furlough: I'm all right
Hana Furlough: how are you today?
Lia Rikugun: hm tired somehow :)
--BELL--
Hana Furlough: oh yeah? did you work today?
Lia Rikugun: yes yes

I had experienced a lucid dream a few days before and was wondering if Hana had had a similar experience

Lia Rikugun: I have a question
Lia Rikugun: did you ever have a lucid dream?
Hana Furlough: you mean when i was awake?
Lia Rikugun: realizing that you dream while dreaming
Hana Furlough: yes a couple of times
Hana Furlough: have you?
Lia Rikugun: ah interesting
Lia Rikugun: I am reading this book about lucid dreaming right now
Lia Rikugun: and I had one after starting
Hana Furlough: oh wow!
Lia Rikugun: but I woke up very quickly after realizing
Lia Rikugun: so now i am always curious before i go to bed
Lia Rikugun: will i be lucid tonight?
Hana Furlough: wow
Hana Furlough: what was it like?
Lia Rikugun: it was funny
Lia Rikugun: I was in Hamburg in germany
Lia Rikugun: (in the dream)
Lia Rikugun: the whole city had higher water
Lia Rikugun: so a small flood but not dangerous
Lia Rikugun: and then I saw a collegue from work
Lia Rikugun: and then another
Lia Rikugun: and more and more
Lia Rikugun: and at some point i told myself, wait a minute
Lia Rikugun: this cant be true
Lia Rikugun: this is when I realized I was dreaming
Lia Rikugun: there were two people in a car or something and i asked one " who he was"
Lia Rikugun: and then somehow i woke up very quickly
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: hello bruce
Lia Rikugun: we are talking about lucis dreams
Lia Rikugun: lucid
Hana Furlough: greetings, bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Lia and Hana.
Lia Rikugun: (sorry i talked too much)
Bruce Mowbray: please continue.
Hana Furlough: not at all
Hana Furlough: so it was the uncanny presence of your coworkers that made you realize you were dreaming?
Lia Rikugun: uncanny presence
Lia Rikugun: i dont know
Lia Rikugun: i knew i was not there with work, so it was too much of a coincidence that somehow everybody of my coworkers were there too
Lia Rikugun: so this is how i knew i was dreaming
Lia Rikugun: bruce did you have lucid dreams?
Bruce Mowbray: If I understand what "lucid dreaming" means (basically that you are fully aware that you're dreaming), then yes, I sometimes have them.
Lia Rikugun: hello liza
Liza Deischer: hi all :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Liza.
Lia Rikugun: we are talking about lucid dreams liza
Hana Furlough: Hello Liza
Bruce Mowbray: am I right with my definition?
Liza Deischer: ok
Lia Rikugun: this is how I understood it :)

How can we "make sure" to have a lucid dream? What do I need to do for it?

Lia Rikugun: I am just wondering what it might mean
Lia Rikugun: and when is it easier to have a lucid dream and when not
Lia Rikugun: sometimes i feel if i am trying to remember a dream
Lia Rikugun: that it is all there just on a different level of awareneess, i just need to click a certain button and then I can remember everything, but somehow i dont always find this button
Hana Furlough: yes it is strange how memories of dreams dribble back long after waking

Bruce tells us about his experience with lucid dreams and that not being heroic will help him remember, he has to promise not to control anything

Bruce Mowbray: I have a rather strange relationship to my dream "state" . . .
Lia Rikugun: in what sense bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: If I want to remember the dream, I sort of have to make a "deal" not to be heroic . . .
Lia Rikugun: i dont understand?
Lia Rikugun: during the dream you are not heroic?
Bruce Mowbray: The dream comes to me as a sort of "gift" -- not something for me to overwhelm with my own "heroics"...
Lia Rikugun: ah ok
Bruce Mowbray: So, lucid dreaming is only possible for me if I promise not to be the hero in my own dream.
Lia Rikugun: is this before you go to bed?
Hana Furlough: that's realy nice, bruce
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: N, actually during the dram I have to make the promise...
Bruce Mowbray: dream.
Liza Deischer: lucid dreaming is something different then remembering a dream, isn't it?
Hana Furlough: we should all be making that promise in daily life
Lia Rikugun: bruce how do you make that promise if you are not yet aware?
Liza Deischer: (sorry, didn't hear the first bell)
Lia Rikugun: licid dreaming is being aware that you dream while dreaming liza
Bruce Mowbray: No problem, Liza.
Liza Deischer: but yes I agree Hana
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Lia Rikugun: hello yaku we are talking about lucid dreaming
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's how I understand "lucid dreaming," also.
Liza Deischer: hi Yaku :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, i am not that much of a lucid dreamer sadly
Hana Furlough: Hi Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: i should write a dream diary
Liza Deischer: yes, ok, then we are talking about the same thing :)
Lia Rikugun: bruce i didnt understand how you make that promise, can you say more please?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i rarely dream and conciously
Bruce Mowbray: OK, sure. If it is a lucid dream, then I am aware that I'm dreaming.
Lia Rikugun: yes
Bruce Mowbray: If in that dream, there are "problematic" scenes going on -- ones that I might be able to "win" in -- through some sort of heroic behavior...
Bruce Mowbray: then I have to "promise" not to be the hero -- Just to see the material as a "gift" to me awareness.
Bruce Mowbray: my awareness.
Lia Rikugun: otherwise you loose the lucidity?
Bruce Mowbray: Here are all these pieces and their relationships.... that this dream is presenting to you as a gift. . .
Lia Rikugun: hello adoro
Bruce Mowbray: no DON'T get in there and mess around with our gift by trying to be a hero!
adoro Rhapsody: hello all
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, adoro!
Liza Deischer: hi Adoro
Hana Furlough: what happens then, bruce? do you become a bystander?
Hana Furlough: Hello Adoro
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey adoro
Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- absolutely a bystander - and a grateful one, too.
Lia Rikugun: wow it is fascintaing I want to try out more, am curious if I when I will have a lucid dream again
Hana Furlough: really? so you don't participate at all?
Lia Rikugun: (we are talking about lucid dreams adoro)
Bruce Mowbray: I might be one of the characters in the dream -- In fact, I usually am one of the characters.
Bruce Mowbray: But I have to promise not to CONTROL everything by intervening in some heroic way.
Hana Furlough: but what happens to the action after you stop intervening?
Hana Furlough: what is the outcome?
Bruce Mowbray: just "see" everything for what it is.
Bruce Mowbray: It's like watching a movie -- you don't have any control over the outcome. This is the only way I can do "lucid dreaming."
Hana Furlough: interesting
Hana Furlough: does it have a happy ending?
Bruce Mowbray: sometimes -- sometimes not.
adoro Rhapsody: does it have a happy beginning ?
Liza Deischer: in buddhism there is talking about being able to participate in a dream
Hana Furlough: :)
Bruce Mowbray: We were talking about dreaming in general, then lucid dreaming in particular -- so I just offered that I have to make a "promise" not to interfere if I'm going to have a lucid dream.

Is it possible to meet a friend in a dream?

Lia Rikugun: i would liek to tr that, meet my friends in a dream :)
Liza Deischer: but I don't think that is the same thing as trying to control it
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Lia Rikugun: i met my mother once in a dream :)
Lia Rikugun: it felt really true
Bruce Mowbray: say more, please, Lia.
Liza Deischer: she is still alive Lia?
Lia Rikugun: no
Lia Rikugun: but it was very intense, and she didnt look like her
Lia Rikugun: but it was her
Lia Rikugun: haha, well i dont know
Lia Rikugun: but i know
Lia Rikugun: :)
Liza Deischer: :)
Liza Deischer: I say a lot of bright blue around me :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Lia Rikugun: this is bruces t-shirt :)
Liza Deischer: ah, ok
Bruce Mowbray: [I make peace shirts and give then away to anyone who wants them.]
adoro Rhapsody: we got it from Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: But back to Lia's dream about her mother.
adoro Rhapsody: hi ewan
Liza Deischer: hi Ewan
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Ewan!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ewan
Lia Rikugun: hello ewan
Hana Furlough: Hey Ewan
Ewan Bonham: Hi folks!
Lia Rikugun: we talked about dreaming and lucid dreams
Lia Rikugun: and meeting people in your dreams :)
--BELL--

Is there an ethical component in the dream for the person who dreamed it?

Bruce Mowbray: Do dreams have an ethical component -- for the dreamer?
Lia Rikugun: i dont understand 100%.
Lia Rikugun: what do you mean bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: If you do things in your dreams, are there ethical considerations for you as the person who dreamed that?
Lia Rikugun: thank you
Hana Furlough: good question
Liza Deischer: I think dreams show a part of you that isn't always a conscious part
Bruce Mowbray: another way to state it might be, What is the relationship between the dreamer and her dream?
Liza Deischer: but if we consider dreams to be 'ours', I guess there is, as in real life (or second)
Bruce Mowbray: One reason (as I told you earlier) that I cannot be heroic in my dreams is that if I could act heroically, then I could also act demonically....
Liza Deischer: I think that would be the first thing to establish yes
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Liza.... so that's why I consider the dream to be a "gift" -- not something for me to messa round with.
Liza Deischer: that sounds more like a choice then that it is about the dream itself
Liza Deischer: hi Arch :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Arch!
Lia Rikugun: hello arch
Bruce Mowbray: A choice, yes... and what I consider to be an ethical choice.
Lia Rikugun: we are talking about dreams and lucid dreams
Liza Deischer: well I think that is a great attitude
Liza Deischer: in general as Hana already pointed out
Ewan Bonham: I agree it is a gift...we may interpret it symbollically..
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Ewan.

Is the dream directing us? Does the dream guide us with real life choices? an inner knowing that comes out in a dream

Ewan Bonham: But i look at it as a karmic guidance.
Liza Deischer: but don't hang yourself up on your own choice
Liza Deischer: sometimes you just need to act
Ewan Bonham: The dream may direct us..
Liza Deischer: in what way Ewan?
Bruce Mowbray: welcome back, adoro.
Liza Deischer: wb Ad
Ewan Bonham: hi Adoro..
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bruce Mowbray: Ewan, are you saying that the dream actually guides you with Real Life choices?
Ewan Bonham: I think it can...
Ewan Bonham: I think it is a sense of inner knowing that comes out in the dream when we are not so well 'defended' to our own truth..
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh! Excellent! THAT's exactly what I was trying to say when I explained that I could not be "hero" in my own dreams.
Liza Deischer: in that case there is a direct relationship between dreamer and dream
Bruce Mowbray: indeed there is.
Ewan Bonham: liza, of yes..
Liza Deischer: I have a feeling there are different layers
Liza Deischer: things we find in our dreams about the previous days
Liza Deischer: things that are mor subconscious
Liza Deischer: and maybe even things that come from a sort of collective memory
Hana Furlough: well said, Liza
adoro Rhapsody: ok
--BELL--
Ewan Bonham: Liza..yes i agree...there are just so many ways we communicate with ourselves and spirit..
Ewan Bonham: the point for me, is to listen..
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) [yes!]
Liza Deischer: yes, Burces point also
Liza Deischer: and I agree
adoro Rhapsody: me too

just listening to the dream may be more important than trying to interfere?

Bruce Mowbray: If I htink of my dream as being like a friend telling me a story. . .
Bruce Mowbray: then it is not "right" for me to interfere with his/her narrative. . .
Lia Rikugun: so it doesnt matter if you ra elucid or not in a dream, just remembering is good :)
Bruce Mowbray: It is more appropriate and ethical for me to let that story be told -- as my friend wants to tell it.
Liza Deischer: I don't know about ethical
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah -- 'theical' is probably a bit too strong.
Liza Deischer: I think you can listen in many ways
Bruce Mowbray: But at least "appropriate..."
adoro Rhapsody: active or passive listening
Liza Deischer: right
Ewan Bonham: yes, actively LISTEN..
Hana Furlough: i need to get back to work
Hana Furlough: great discussion as always!
Hana Furlough: bye for now!
Lia Rikugun: have fun hana
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Bruce Mowbray: OK hana. Bye and thanks!
Liza Deischer: ok Hana, bye :)
adoro Rhapsody: dreamworks
Ewan Bonham: Which is very different from interrupting the tale.
Liza Deischer: (for the record)
Ewan Bonham: bye Hana
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye hana
Liza Deischer: yes but I think that to listen closely, you need to be albe to 'flow' with the tale
Liza Deischer: 'tale'
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Liza Deischer: not really sure what I mean by that :)
adoro Rhapsody: thats a sign of interest in the other
adoro Rhapsody: keeping up with his or her flow

the respectful listener

Bruce Mowbray: yes, adoro -- and a respectful listener.
adoro Rhapsody: of course
Ewan Bonham: yes, adoro
Bruce Mowbray: May I give a personal example?
Liza Deischer: sure
Ewan Bonham: sure, bruce
Lia Rikugun: yes please
adoro Rhapsody: go on
adoro Rhapsody: bruce
Bruce Mowbray: At the last session here, Yaku was talking about his own life and giving specific details.
Bruce Mowbray: The whole time I was listening to Yaku, I was also watching myself -- and watching how much I wanted to INTERFERE with Yaku's story. . .
adoro Rhapsody: so ?
Bruce Mowbray: to give advice or to offer help, etc.
Bruce Mowbray: That, I think, would NOT be a respectful listener.
adoro Rhapsody: i had the same in manny discussions
Bruce Mowbray: UNTIL Yaku actually asked for that advice.
Ewan Bonham: Yes..
Bruce Mowbray: So. . . I feel it is the same with a dream.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: respectful dreaming
Ewan Bonham: i agree , Bruce..
Bruce Mowbray: I respectfully LISTEN and WATCH -- and maybe later I can analyze it, symbolically, or whatever.
Liza Deischer: That depends, is the advice interfering with the flow or not
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Liza Deischer: maybe even helping to get more clearity about the flow
Ewan Bonham: And...the dream just happens...then i need to continue to listen to it play inside of me...like plying an mp3 again..
adoro Rhapsody: do u add or break something to the flow
Liza Deischer: I don't belief in just listening
Liza Deischer: I do belief in 'active listening'
Liza Deischer: but that is hard to describe
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Ewan Bonham: yes, Liza
Liza Deischer: not acting might be interfering too
adoro Rhapsody: that is building a realtionship
Liza Deischer: right Ad
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Alfred!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi alf
Lia Rikugun: hello alfred
Liza Deischer: hi Alf
Alfred Kelberry sneaks in from the bushes
adoro Rhapsody: hi alf
Ewan Bonham: hi alf
Alfred Kelberry: oi :)
Lia Rikugun: what a ncute avatar
Liza Deischer: you've been spotted though Alf :)
Alfred Kelberry: thank you, lia :) i've always liked your cute tail :)
Bruce Mowbray: It seems especially delicate when the only way I have of communicating is through chat. . . and there are time lapses, etc.
Liza Deischer: that's true Bruce
Lia Rikugun: (haha, I dont think I have it on right now :)
Bruce Mowbray: So, I am especially concerned about the "ethical" issues of listening.
Liza Deischer: sl sure has its limitations
Alfred Kelberry: listening? are you talking bout 1984? :)
Liza Deischer: no Alf
adoro Rhapsody: and ethical is subjective
Alfred Kelberry: um, ok
Bruce Mowbray: mmmmm. . . . (not entirely sure that ethical is 'subjective'). . .
adoro Rhapsody: or elative i mean
Alfred Kelberry: bruce, some tribes think it's ethical to eat humans
adoro Rhapsody: relative
Liza Deischer: I think everything is subjective
Ewan Bonham: Perhaps respectful listening
Lia Rikugun: (sorry will go to bed, my eyes are clsoing automatically.. was a very interesting session, thank you)
Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone likes some soylent green ?
Liza Deischer: bye Lia ;)
adoro Rhapsody: dream well
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night lia
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, Lia!
adoro Rhapsody: lia
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: night, lia :)
Bruce Mowbray: Sleep well.
Ewan Bonham: by lia
Lia Rikugun: i hope some lucid dream ;)

adoro Rhapsody: can lucid dreams be wet deams too ?
Alfred Kelberry: i think an objective view is just like a norm. it's what considered right by majority.
Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha!!
adoro Rhapsody: sorry
Bruce Mowbray: no problem, adoro -- That's a good question, actually.
adoro Rhapsody: its not ethical
Bruce Mowbray: The thing is, Alfred, I have strong ethical feelings about things that the majority has an opposite moral feeling about.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i also have to sleep
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
Bruce Mowbray: OK, Yaku. Good night and sleep well.
Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)
adoro Rhapsody: night yak
Ewan Bonham: Bye yak
adoro Rhapsody: can we also out of the box dreaming , Alfred ?
Alfred Kelberry: it just makes you a non-conformist :)
adoro Rhapsody: the bravery of being out of range
Bruce Mowbray: Well, indeed I am non-conformist -- but my ethical system is t=not that of the majority -- but it is still an ethic -- mine!
adoro Rhapsody: by roger waters
Bruce Mowbray: Pink Floyd?
Alfred Kelberry: of course, a subjective ethics of yours :)
adoro Rhapsody: we need that
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Ewan!
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks.
adoro Rhapsody: bye
adoro Rhapsody: ewan
Ewan Bonham: Thank you folks, i will have to excuse myself...very interesting..:))
Liza Deischer: bye Ewan
Alfred Kelberry: ewan mcgregor
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: he's cute
Alfred Kelberry: i've seen the ghost writer recently
Alfred Kelberry: a good movie
adoro Rhapsody: interesting
adoro Rhapsody: an u tell the essence of the film in one minute ?
adoro Rhapsody: can
Alfred Kelberry: what?
adoro Rhapsody: of that film
Alfred Kelberry: in fact, it was only 2 words
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: which 2 words ?
Bruce Mowbray: A writer (Ewan McGregor) stumbles upon a long-hidden secret when he agrees to help former British Prime Minister Adam Lang (Pierce Brosnan) complete his memoirs on a remote island after the politician's assistant drowns in a mysterious accident. In director Roman Polanski's tense drama, the author realizes that his discovery threatens some very powerful people who will do anything to ensure that certain episodes from Lang's past remain buried.
Alfred Kelberry: "a good movie"
adoro Rhapsody: wonderful
adoro Rhapsody: so now i dont have to go to see the film
adoro Rhapsody: you explained the essence
adoro Rhapsody: for me
adoro Rhapsody: very clear
adoro Rhapsody: and its published
adoro Rhapsody: so i can read it over and over again
adoro Rhapsody: wonderful
Bruce Mowbray: Do you know about imdb.com adoro?
adoro Rhapsody: not yet
adoro Rhapsody: what is it ?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, you can go there and find information about ANY movie -- all the actors, production details, plots, etc.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bruce Mowbray: Internet Movie Database
Alfred Kelberry: um, i think i'll go see how ways of knowing is doing
adoro Rhapsody: so i never have to go to any movie
Bruce Mowbray: I could not understand what was happening in INCEPTION until I read about it in IMDB.
adoro Rhapsody: bye alfred
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Alfred.
adoro Rhapsody: i see
Bruce Mowbray: I didn't realize that Ways of Knowing was meeting through the summer.....(?)
adoro Rhapsody: i got an idea when i saw the trailer on youtube
adoro Rhapsody: of inception
adoro Rhapsody: it was great
Bruce Mowbray: yes. Actually, there are a lot of "moral" issues about dreaming presented in that movie.
Bruce Mowbray: "ethical" issues, I would call them.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: thats why the film is often referred to here
adoro Rhapsody: in this sessions
adoro Rhapsody: i think
adoro Rhapsody: maybe
adoro Rhapsody: but its interesting
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Mmmm... not sure. There is a lot of "consciousness" work in the movie -- and some of it seems to be a bit "Buddhist" -- and maybe that's why it is mentioned here.
Liza Deischer: goin guys
Liza Deischer: see you :)
adoro Rhapsody: bye liz
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Liza -- and Thanks!
adoro Rhapsody: taylor
adoro Rhapsody: thnx
Bruce Mowbray: Do ethical questions sometimes come up in your IT security work adoro?
adoro Rhapsody: yes often
adoro Rhapsody: keeping balance between user and provider
Bruce Mowbray: I'm sure.
adoro Rhapsody: and government and citisan
adoro Rhapsody: citizen
adoro Rhapsody: in privacy questions
Bruce Mowbray: Recently, as I am sure you know, there has been a big release of wiki-leaks material -- concerning the US military. . .
adoro Rhapsody: CIA = confidentialy, Integrity and Availability
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
adoro Rhapsody: of information or data
adoro Rhapsody: especial personel data
adoro Rhapsody: of race, illness, and so on
Bruce Mowbray: also, the matter of copyrighted material.
adoro Rhapsody: beleif, religion etc
adoro Rhapsody: yes also copyright or licences
Bruce Mowbray: yep.
adoro Rhapsody: and segregation of duties
adoro Rhapsody: and two opposite principles:
adoro Rhapsody: need to know
adoro Rhapsody: or
adoro Rhapsody: public, unless
adoro Rhapsody: we in dept. of education promote freedom of information, so publis, unless
adoro Rhapsody: but defence and justice promote : need to know
adoro Rhapsody: but we are one government
Bruce Mowbray: Hi there, new guardian!
adoro Rhapsody: so i like to make a bridge between boths
adoro Rhapsody: for ythe one citizen
Bruce Mowbray: For me, the moral precept "Do no harm" comes into the play . . .
adoro Rhapsody: sure
adoro Rhapsody: its in all beliefs the main rule
adoro Rhapsody: hi aph
Bruce Mowbray: But how about this: Say I want to download a movie that I would NEVER buy - - -
Aphrodite Macbain: hi
Bruce Mowbray: and I get a bit torrent and download it (like through Pirate Bay).
Bruce Mowbray: That is violating a law, but it is not "Harming" anyone.
adoro Rhapsody: that can be in another business model
adoro Rhapsody: just tax the use of internet
adoro Rhapsody: and pay all producers
adoro Rhapsody: or so
adoro Rhapsody: just imagine
Bruce Mowbray: mmmmmm. . . . What if the movie is pornographic -- and some folks don't wish to be taxed to promote porn....
adoro Rhapsody: some ideas
adoro Rhapsody: we dont need no mind control
adoro Rhapsody: pink floyd
Bruce Mowbray: I'm in agreement with you -- but the producers of the movies disagree.
adoro Rhapsody: pornographic is respectless
adoro Rhapsody: so no good practice
adoro Rhapsody: but lust instead of love
Bruce Mowbray: lacking respect -- OK, perhaps,. But there is an enormous appetite for it on the Internet. . .
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bruce Mowbray: so how to regulate downloads. . . and still keep open the "freedom to know, " etc.
adoro Rhapsody: ok thats a paradox
adoro Rhapsody: we have to come out by balancing from a higher level
adoro Rhapsody: maybe
Bruce Mowbray: I'm not really talking about porn -- more about access to digital media on the Internet and how "Do no harm" comes into play.
adoro Rhapsody: the harm is done while producing it not while watching it
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. There is another precept: "Do not steal."
Bruce Mowbray: maybe that's the one that comes into play with downloading copyrighted material.
adoro Rhapsody: thats the consequence of "ownwership"
--BELL--
adoro Rhapsody: but sharing on internet is not losing the original
adoro Rhapsody: sharing is multiplying
Bruce Mowbray: I like that!
adoro Rhapsody: downloading do u self
adoro Rhapsody: its making your own copy, not stealing
adoro Rhapsody: the owner keeps his copy
Bruce Mowbray: I agree -- and I would not then go out and sell my copy.
adoro Rhapsody: that depend of your business model
Bruce Mowbray: (also depends on my ethical model, I think)
adoro Rhapsody: u sell a copy nit the original
adoro Rhapsody: not
Bruce Mowbray: I would never do that.
adoro Rhapsody: of course busines has ethical aspects
Bruce Mowbray: It seems that morality and ethics has to run to catch up with technology.
adoro Rhapsody: making profit ? for your self ?
adoro Rhapsody: or for the community ?
Bruce Mowbray: No profit for me. . . just enjoyment of the movie that I downloaded for free.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: but u spend time and deliverd maybe your ptivate data
adoro Rhapsody: private
adoro Rhapsody: and google can do marketing with your searching data
adoro Rhapsody: just for free ?
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. . . never thought of it that way before.
adoro Rhapsody: almost nobody does
adoro Rhapsody: but its not complete picture
adoro Rhapsody: because we are impressed by the new possibilities
Bruce Mowbray: well, sir, this has been an interesting session. I must get some supper now.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: sir
adoro Rhapsody: bye
adoro Rhapsody: apatite !
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) Bye -- See you again soon!
adoro Rhapsody: apatite
adoro Rhapsody: later
adoro Rhapsody: namaste