2011.04.03 19:00 - Waiting on a Bridge for (and to) Reality

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.
    I was struck by the flexibility of the group with respect to entertaining topics.  Today's topics include morality and existence.  Animal companions did put in an appearance near the end, as they are wont to do, but the kittens did not play this time.

    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Cal :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Did you go to the retreat this weekend?
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I would have but it was during sleep time
    Archmage Atlantis: I did not either
    Archmage Atlantis: I think 1 a year may be the most my psyche is capable of
    Calvino Rabeni considers
    Archmage Atlantis: I hope that is a good champagne, or other similar wine
    Calvino Rabeni: It makes one quite animated and vociferous
    Archmage Atlantis: I like Frexinet
    Archmage Atlantis: The Spanish importt
    Calvino Rabeni: It's something to look forward to
    Archmage Atlantis: agree
    Archmage Atlantis: I have been watching a lot of murder, rape and torture shows......American TV you know
    Archmage Atlantis: Trying to understand
    Calvino Rabeni: Why they think about that stuff for "fun"?
    Archmage Atlantis: My Dad was a "Special
    Archmage Atlantis: Agent"
    Archmage Atlantis: like in the shows
    Calvino Rabeni: What job is that?
    Archmage Atlantis: I never thought of what that meant
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a person, man, woman, who is commmitted to protecting the system of justice
    Archmage Atlantis: And also committed to holding the system of justice responsible
    Archmage Atlantis: I don't think of it as fun
    Archmage Atlantis: I think of it as, am I doing my obligation
    Calvino Rabeni: Now I'm wondering - Does that mean, such topics were commonplace during childhood?
    Archmage Atlantis: Never
    Archmage Atlantis: It was all kept from me
    Calvino Rabeni: What do you think, was that better?
    Archmage Atlantis: A child, in their opinion, as best I can tell, requires a time of innocence
    Paradise Tennant: hiya arch cal :) :)
    Calvino Rabeni: But it could have been in the air, unspoken, and looking around for expression or questioning
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Paradise :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Better, no....differerent, yes
    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Paradise
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes. in the air, true
    Calvino Rabeni: Hearing about it .. the real thing, it's not at all like watching entertainment on TV
    Calvino Rabeni: It's not in the "fun" category at all
    Archmage Atlantis: Still not in my life....only knowledge to be activated when the time came
    Archmage Atlantis: OMG, to me, not entertainment at all
    Calvino Rabeni: Nor to me
    Archmage Atlantis: A responsibility
    Calvino Rabeni: So basically I don't "get" it when seeing TV...
    Calvino Rabeni: Consequently I don't do that much... :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Except out of curiosity, I did an experiment from time to time, like watching a TV show called "24" which carried a load of it.
    Calvino Rabeni: Although it did not create a "taste" for it
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes I watched 24 for the first time this year
    Archmage Atlantis: It has been on several yeary
    Paradise Tennant: smiles and sneaks out ... :)
    Calvino Rabeni: A RL story of those things always takes time to recover from, or assimilate, or whatever it is one does, hearing about such things
    Archmage Atlantis: It wore me out
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it is true that, children aren't too disturbed by stories of killing, but very sensitive to stories of injustice
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Lucinda !
    Lucinda Lavender: Hey Hi:)
    Calvino Rabeni: We had some things in common then, Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: yes, Cal
    Archmage Atlantis: new subject
    Calvino Rabeni: How are you, Cinda?
    Lucinda Lavender: good...
    Lucinda Lavender: and you?
    Lucinda Lavender: All?
    Archmage Atlantis: Involved....aware....so, good
    Calvino Rabeni: Enjoying a little cooking tonight, more relaxed than during the week
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Archmage Atlantis: Cooking, kewl
    Archmage Atlantis: My tomato sauce wasn
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Susan:)
    Lucinda Lavender: What did you cook?
    Archmage Atlantis: ''t up to my usual standards this week
    Hana Furlough: Hi everyone!
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Archmage Atlantis: What did you cook, Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: (what's the opposite of haute cuisine) ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sort of like camp food
    Hana Furlough: ha
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Hana:)
    Lucinda Lavender: think so Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: Ground beef, different kinds of beans and corn and tomatoes, from inside tins :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Family cooking is the opposite of haute cuisine
    Hana Furlough: were you camping, cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: This could qualify
    Archmage Atlantis: Bad cooking is neither
    Calvino Rabeni: In my house :)
    Hana Furlough: nice
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes this is hearty non-gourmet fare
    Lucinda Lavender: nourishing then

    Archmage Atlantis: Namaste, Stevenaia /|\
    iwandertoo Resident: waves to Stevenaia
    Calvino Rabeni: Any hightlights in the art Dome?
    Hana Furlough: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Lucinda Lavender: Hi Steve:)
    Archmage Atlantis: Being is to be.....alive is to participate.....morality is to participate with thought
    Hana Furlough: can you say more about that last part?
    Archmage Atlantis: Wish I could, Hana......but for me it is each our own path to find
    Hana Furlough: i agree, but i'm curious about how you would define morality in this context?
    Archmage Atlantis: Morality in any context is that action, inaction....thought, or non-thought...that gives the greatest felling of love
    Archmage Atlantis: And no, I cannot define love
    Hana Furlough: right action?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, tho right action can be sometimes wrong, and wrong action can be sometimes right
    Hana Furlough: as in, there are no fixed actions?
    Archmage Atlantis: There are others here, Hana......perhaps some will help with that question
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi, fabgear, this is the discussion area for PlayAsBeing .. our conversations are published on the wiki at http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
    Hana Furlough: Hi Fabgear
    fabgear Resident: Evening

    Calvino Rabeni: Fab, we inform visitors that their words are being recorded, to make sure they understand and are okay with that
    Calvino Rabeni: One of the events this weekend here was a kabuki play
    Hana Furlough: cool!
    fabgear Resident: ok
    Archmage Atlantis: I must go, ty all for the evening
    Calvino Rabeni: it had the archetypal characters of the young lovers, the woman waiting on a bridge, the lover going off to war
    Hana Furlough: good night, arch
    Calvino Rabeni: Take care, good to see you Archmage
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Arch
    Lucinda Lavender: bye Arch...have a good eve
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Lucinda Lavender: HI Paradise:)
    Hana Furlough: Hi Paradise
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi paradise
    Paradise Tennant: hiya hans ..cal stev lucinda iwandertoo :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there's a lot of symbolism to the bridge
    Hana Furlough: for sure
    stevenaia Michinaga: you are partly cloudy tonight
    Lucinda Lavender: ah..in the Labuki play you mean...
    Calvino Rabeni: but lately I'm thinking of it as representing the relationship links between people
    Paradise Tennant: waves and smiles at hana missed you on my cam around :)
    Hana Furlough: nice, steve
    Calvino Rabeni: and waiting on it is giving attention to relations
    Hana Furlough: interesting, cal, can you say more?
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, one idea is that people are like islands, that sounds a little familiar,.. the bridges are the links between them
    Lucinda Lavender: nodding
    Calvino Rabeni: sociology has gone back and forth between focusing on the islands and the bridges
    Hana Furlough: right
    Hana Furlough: but that's a pretty modern/western concept, no?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, well, at least since morality was identified with logic instead of relationship, and logic was located inside an individual
    Calvino Rabeni: so morality got a bit weaker, when it came to depend on a person's individual thinking or feeling
    Hana Furlough: right i think the emphasis on the individual -- the idea that individuality is even possible -- was the main development
    Hana Furlough: interesting comment about morality cal
    iwandertoo Resident: why did it get "weaker"?
    Hana Furlough: if there's only isolated beings, then morality must become difficult
    iwandertoo Resident: why so?
    Calvino Rabeni: because it was cut off from relationship
    Hana Furlough: right
    iwandertoo Resident: but not from a relationship with oneself
    iwandertoo Resident: are you saying that one is moral because of relationships with others?
    Calvino Rabeni: that idea that what happens to me is more important than what happens to others, for instance, or the idea that I would be less aware or not aware of it
    Hana Furlough: i would venture to say that relationship with oneself is not separate from relationship with others
    Lucinda Lavender: Luci is thinking about awareness of oneself and feeling that from a place of authenticity then one becomes available to stand on the bridge and wait...of
    iwandertoo Resident: nods with Hana, Luci
    Calvino Rabeni: I like that statement of it Cinda
    Calvino Rabeni: It's the difference between "valuing" and "evaluating"
    Lucinda Lavender: without dissipointment in what one thinks one can expect perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: Valuing is a relationship ... I value you, (or whatever) it has three parts
    Calvino Rabeni: but evaluating is to take the value OUT of something and try to make it stand alone
    Calvino Rabeni: abstractly

    iwandertoo Resident: evaluate is to define the value
    iwandertoo Resident: sorry...not sure i am following
    Calvino Rabeni: To define is to take it out if context and make it stand alone, without the subject, the object, the relatioship being present any more
    Calvino Rabeni: valuing is an act where all those still are present
    iwandertoo Resident: knowledge is contextual...
    Calvino Rabeni: very much so
    iwandertoo Resident: definitions are contextual
    Hana Furlough: nicely put, cal
    Hana Furlough: an important reminder, too
    Hana Furlough: :)
    iwandertoo Resident: lost
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Hana Furlough: i think cal's trying to remind us all that all things are in relationship, always
    Calvino Rabeni: the context is thick .. infinite actually
    iwandertoo Resident: i think i come from a different school of thought. but it's good to listen and test one's premises.
    Hana Furlough: can you tell us more about your school of thought?
    iwandertoo Resident: it's not one that says primacy of consciousness
    iwandertoo Resident: i think this is the fundamental difference
    Hana Furlough: so what do you give primacy to?
    iwandertoo Resident: existence exists
    iwandertoo Resident: whether we are here or not
    Hana Furlough: but are we not part of existence?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles little bits of fluff or no fluff :) as the case may be :)
    iwandertoo Resident: we do exist
    iwandertoo Resident: but i do not believe we determine reality
    iwandertoo Resident: we perceive through our senses
    Hana Furlough: so what determines reality?
    iwandertoo Resident: i dont understand the question
    Hana Furlough: you said you don't believe we determine reality
    Hana Furlough: which makes perfect sense to me
    Hana Furlough: i was wondering, if we don't determine reality, then how is it determined (if at all)?
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb Lucinda
    iwandertoo Resident: if humans were not here, there would be no reality?
    iwandertoo Resident: (trying to understand your question)
    iwandertoo Resident: there would be no earth?
    iwandertoo Resident: no water, no air?
    Hana Furlough: hmmm
    Hana Furlough: how can i say it better
    Hana Furlough: eeek don't know if i can
    Hana Furlough: i'm just curious about what you think holds it all together, so to speak
    iwandertoo Resident: please restate differently

    iwandertoo Resident: consciousness as identification
    iwandertoo Resident: (not consciousness as creating it)
    Paradise Tennant: so thoughts do not manifest :)
    Hana Furlough: isorry for confusing you
    iwandertoo Resident: i don't understand
    Hana Furlough: what do you mean by existence?
    iwandertoo Resident: i think we speak a different language...may take some time to understand each other
    iwandertoo Resident: this
    Hana Furlough: life in the biological sense?
    Hana Furlough: or something else?
    iwandertoo Resident: what other sense is there?
    iwandertoo Resident: that rock. you. the fountain. the seaside. the air you breathe - existence
    Hana Furlough: so you mean like experience?
    iwandertoo Resident: no
    iwandertoo Resident: unless
    iwandertoo Resident: ...
    iwandertoo Resident: you mean the act of one's sense perceiving at a biophysical level?
    Hana Furlough: yeah
    iwandertoo Resident: k
    Hana Furlough: is that what you mean?
    iwandertoo Resident: yes
    Hana Furlough: so existence is the act of sense perception at the biophysical level
    Hana Furlough: it's in the subject?
    iwandertoo Resident: no
    iwandertoo Resident: existence exists
    Hana Furlough: can you say more?
    iwandertoo Resident: our means, as humans, is to perceive it through our senses
    iwandertoo Resident: but it exists whether or not we do
    iwandertoo Resident: (existence exists whether or not we do)
    Hana Furlough: ok
    Hana Furlough: gotcha
    stevenaia Michinaga: is that the same as reality.. exisitng wheter we do or not?
    iwandertoo Resident: yes.
    iwandertoo Resident: if i understand what you are saying
    iwandertoo Resident: how might existence be different from reality?
    stevenaia Michinaga: was wondering if there is a diference, or does reality require perception
    Paradise Tennant: does attention change reality
    Paradise Tennant: if you believe quantum physics it does :)
    iwandertoo Resident: they are one in the same and perhaps this is where we differ
    iwandertoo Resident: humans do not live at a quantum level
    Hana Furlough: we don't?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suppose exisitance exists on say mars, so reality does too?
    Hana Furlough: or we can't?
    Paradise Tennant: smiles yes but we are composed of very very little bits that behave oddly :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles not that the big bits do not behave oddly :)
    iwandertoo Resident: Stevanaia, i dont have different definitions for those terms. If you do - then perhaps yes
    Hana Furlough: i must run
    Hana Furlough: thank you all for the fascinating discussion!
    iwandertoo Resident: waves
    Paradise Tennant: good nite hana ..thank you for the conversation :0
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, take care Hana
    Lucinda Lavender: Bye Hana:)
    Calvino Rabeni: When I think about where morality "comes from" it's not, philosophers trying to define the capitalized things like Good in abstract ways that can be reasoned ... Where does morality come from? I see a lot of it being created where people work with young children, helping them refine their intrinsic relatedness and responsiveness to others, helping them develop intelligence in that area
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am wondering, does the surface of jupiter have a reality, or do we need to be there to make it so, does it jsut ahve existance
    Calvino Rabeni: oops Steve, I thought you were through :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: n.p. Cal, I jsut have questions
    stevenaia Michinaga: does reality require conciousness (like, say morality)
    Calvino Rabeni: If you want it to, sure
    Calvino Rabeni: if reality is defined as an act of consciousness, it requires it, by definition
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods, still working on that definition
    Calvino Rabeni: the "other kind" of reality then, doesn't
    Calvino Rabeni: it does fine by itself
    Paradise Tennant: reality has about ... 493,000,000 results in google .. :)
    iwandertoo Resident: haha
    Lucinda Lavender: )
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders what the last one is
    Lucinda Lavender: ;)
    Paradise Tennant: existence only 150,000,000 results :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: Tomorrow it will have 493,000,001 results, after this conversation is posted :)
    iwandertoo Resident: :)
    Paradise Tennant: smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: The students of the future will sit around in coffee houses pondering, if a fact exists, but doesn't get indexed, then is it still true?
    stevenaia Michinaga: google will make sure the question is asked, and put ads on the page
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe being indexed will be "enough" to serve the role of listening to create the sound of the tree falling in the forest
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes that makes sense Steve
    Lucinda Lavender: sounds like the indexing of things is becoming more imporant ...
    Calvino Rabeni: It's gone beyond indexing pre-made facts, now they can be created to order, in order to be indexed
    Calvino Rabeni: The map really IS the territory ... ?
    Paradise Tennant: always find the concept of reality is amorphous .. subjective .. a shape shifter .. layered .. to the point of almost being prism .. in the individual
    Lucinda Lavender: Luci is thinking of the indexing of the rocks and trees as well
    Lucinda Lavender: surveyers examined the land so as to sell as well
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, or for places to build things to sell
    Calvino Rabeni: creating "space"
    Calvino Rabeni: does the space exist before being surveyed?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not in the same way
    Calvino Rabeni: And it was different before the invention of geometry
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe it lacks boundaries?

    stevenaia Michinaga: does time exist before it is measured, perhaps in a different form
    Lucinda Lavender: Feeling what I just said maybe sounds silly in some way...ah well
    Calvino Rabeni: not at all
    Lucinda Lavender: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: what would space be like without all the ways of measuring and commoditizing it and filling it with useful things?
    stevenaia Michinaga: it would be .. ready for exactly that
    stevenaia Michinaga: and so much more
    Calvino Rabeni: Why that and not something else?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Lucinda Lavender: potential?
    stevenaia Michinaga: read for the future
    stevenaia Michinaga: ready
    stevenaia Michinaga: soundsl like limitless potential always exists
    Calvino Rabeni: but would it be unstructured and formless as a way of being limitless?
    Calvino Rabeni: (rhetorical question)
    stevenaia Michinaga: one possibility :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'd guess not
    Paradise Tennant: hmm matter is really kind of unstructured .. formless :) ..
    Lucinda Lavender: what about on an energetic level
    Lucinda Lavender: very far down
    Lucinda Lavender: like molecular...
    Lucinda Lavender: maybe not...
    iwandertoo Resident: best to everyone
    stevenaia Michinaga: night susam
    Paradise Tennant: smiles good nite iwandertoo :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, take care :)
    Lucinda Lavender: night Susan...

    Paradise Tennant: smiles getting sleepy too .. and my four legged friend is giving me meaning ful glances :)
    Lucinda Lavender: must go for now...dream well all :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sounds good to me too ...:)
    Paradise Tennant: watched a video the other night with jane goodall on animal communication thought I would leave you with a link to a telepathic parrot :)))
    Paradise Tennant: http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/2-14-2004-50553.asp
    Paradise Tennant: namaste my friends :))
    Calvino Rabeni: I like those meaningful non-human glances
    Lucinda Lavender: thanks Paradise:)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    stevenaia Michinaga: night
    stevenaia Michinaga: off to bed too
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, everyone, sleep well, dream mighty
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Cal, Lucinda, Paraside
    stevenaia Michinaga: paradise
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Paradise Tennant: thank you cal ..lucinda .. stev for the conversation :) the ideas the company :)
    Lucinda Lavender: namaste ...

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