2011.05.24 01:00 - Rarely, If Ever, Effective

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Pema Pera: hi Wol !
Wol Euler: sayonara, pema
Pema Pera: good seeing you again
Wol Euler: likewise
Pema Pera: I hope you're not leaving yet :-)
Wol Euler: I can't stay long, I have an appointment at 11
Pema Pera: "sayonara"
Wol Euler: and will need 20 mins to get there
Wol Euler: ah, sorry :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Wol Euler: konichiwa!
Pema Pera: same to you!
Pema Pera: let's see, morning for you, right?
Wol Euler: yep, 10am
Pema Pera: ohayo gozaimasu
Pema Pera: (litterally: "it is early")
Wol Euler smiles and bows
Pema Pera: for me 5 pm
Pema Pera bows back
Wol Euler: I found a newly opened Japanese restaurant in Stuttgart, quite delicious and authentic
Wol Euler: reminded me strongly of Kyoto
Pema Pera: oh, how nice!
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: what do they serve?
Wol Euler: well, they have a sushi bar with the "train", and two long communal tables
Wol Euler: there are soups and noodle/rice dishes, and many single dishes that I recognized
Wol Euler: salmon grilled in miso, for example
Pema Pera: I always enjoy community tables
Pema Pera: hmm, getting an appetite!
Wol Euler: the germans don't do it right :) they sit at the table but far apart and pretend they're alone
Pema Pera: (it's about that time for me)
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Pema Pera: oh, the Japanese are like the Germans in that regard :)
Wol Euler ponders
Wol Euler: we got into a few conversations, but perhaps that was the exotic-ness of us :)
Pema Pera: very much so
Wol Euler: being a foreigner, and clealy a well-intentioned one, exempts you from following the rules
Pema Pera: yes, anywhere!

A while ago, I had mentioned to Wol the web site http://www.unfetteredmind.org/

Pema Pera: btw, have you gotten a chance to read some of the Ken McLeod pieces, that I mentioned a while ago?
--BELL--
Wol Euler: not yet, no, but they are bookmarked and on my list
Wol Euler: I have a few half-days off during the next weeks
Wol Euler: and a lot to catch up on
Wol Euler smiles.
Pema Pera: I was surprised to see how similar his writing is to PaB
Pema Pera: perhaps more than anything I've seen so far, apart from the TSK book -- and complementary to ti
Pema Pera: *it
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: yes, my impression from loooking at the site was that there was a strong overlap
Wol Euler: the same emphasis on experience and non-judgement
Pema Pera: yes, going into the experiment, rather than standing at the gate, arms folded, and analyze :-)
Wol Euler: hehehe
Pema Pera: *experience, rather
Pema Pera: (but experiment too :-)
Wol Euler: an interesting slip :)
Wol Euler: both work
Pema Pera: yes!
Wol Euler: life as continual experiment
Pema Pera nods
Wol Euler: I was at a meeting of another group at the cafe recently, and had to leave within ten minutes
Wol Euler: because I was so incensed at the style of argument - not debate
Wol Euler: "I am right, you are wrong, and here's why"
Pema Pera: which one?
Wol Euler: I'll tell you in IM :)
Pema Pera: hahaha
Wol Euler: I recognize that my reaction was wrong, I shouldn't have been that emotionally involved
Wol Euler: but somehow he REALLY winds me up
Pema Pera: well, whenever we get somebody really argumentative, either here in the PaB pavilion, or in the Kira Cafe, it can also be seen as an interesting experiment, yes
Pema Pera: tit-for-tat doesn't work very well :-)
Wol Euler laughs.

An unexpected opportunity for an example application:

Pema Pera: ah, this gives me a chance for a Ken McLeod quote!
Wol Euler: not at all! it only makes things worse
Pema Pera: just a moment
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: okay, found it! here goes
Pema Pera: First feel the pain of the harm in you, how it expresses itself in physical sensations, emotions, and stories. Then, as you rest in the mess, you find first peace, then ease, and then a shift, and your struggles with the whole mess just evaporate. In this way, your antagonist becomes your teacher.
Pema Pera: When we react to sabotage, we fight like with like. We Become what we oppose. It's rarely, if ever, effective.
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: Take into consideration the past and the future, for they are both present in the present, and do what is appropriate for right now. When you do what is appropriate right now for no other reason than that it is appropriate right now, you may discover a quiet joy, a joy that comes when you aren't holding on to anything. This is a very different way of living.
Wol Euler smiles and nods. Been there, that is true.
Pema Pera: so easy to forget, though :-)
Wol Euler: just letting go of something that "should" have angered you is liberating
Wol Euler: the surprising thing to me about my anger was that he wasn't even arguing with me
Wol Euler: I found his style disrespectful of the group, inappropriate
Wol Euler: and his statements! "your experience is false" basically
Wol Euler: wtf?
Pema Pera: yes, and it is in a way more difficult to let that happen to a group, than to yourself, I know!
Wol Euler: funny, that :)
Pema Pera: we all tend to want to protect, and that in itself is a good reaction
Wol Euler: one can ignore an offence to oneself, but has to defend the group
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: the question is, *how* to defend
Wol Euler: and I am definitely the mother hen around here, nobody hurts my chicks
Pema Pera: by throwing oil on the fire is not the best way :-)
Pema Pera: I've done it many times myself!

So I can speak with some authority :-)

Wol Euler grins.
--BELL--
Wol Euler: there are a few of us, sure :) you and I, and storm also takes few prisoners :)
Pema Pera: Sorry, Wol, just noticed the time -- have to run, just took this log, because nobody else had volunteered so it was still open.  Was forgetting the time, while having fun (^_^)
Wol Euler: bye pema, and bon appetit :)
Pema Pera: thanks, Wol!
Pema Pera: you too (in due time)
Pema Pera: bfn