2011.09.29 19:00 - What is Atonement, What is Sin.

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    The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia. This session was attended by Stevenaia, oO0Oo, Alfred, and Bertrum; and Tess and Rhiannon. Stevenaia initiated the topic of Atonement in respect to the upcoming Yom Kipper (Day of Atonement) on this Rosh Hashanah.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi SSL, I am just showing my sister-in-law from Detroit around
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh great!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Showing her second life?
    stevenaia Michinaga: sl and PaB
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wonderful
    stevenaia Michinaga: she has has an avatar but rarely uses it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: It would be nice if she could join us sometime.
    stevenaia Michinaga: unfortunately she is usually asleep by this time
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :) yes, it's 10 pm our time
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Paradise is in Paris, I am claiming the session for her
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I like how that sounds, paradise in Paris ;)
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, I didn't think I'd make it to help her out tonight because the house is full of relatives, but things have quieted down now
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you can take it if you want it
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, she has been very excited about it, as I'm sure I would be
    stevenaia Michinaga: never been to that side of the pond
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! I bet. I wouldn't sleep for a few days beforehand!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Samúð
    stevenaia Michinaga: I will be picking up her log next thursday
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for helping :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: do swing by the art dome if you haven't done it yet, Steve, not that I need to tell ya that
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was just there showing her around
    oO0Oo Resident: :) Hi Sophia, Stevenaia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yay
    stevenaia Michinaga: love the show
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Samúð
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I didn't bring a topic nor a quote today, anything you'd like to discuss?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I just got done doing dishes, I don't know when my mind will be focues again, however we have just entered the Jewish new year leading up the the day of "Atonement"... always a fun topic this time of year 
    stevenaia Michinaga: how is one forgiven for past transgressions
    oO0Oo Resident listens ;)
    stevenaia Michinaga: a time of personal cleansing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a wonderful concept, opening up to start with a clean slate, if I understand correctly
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, and of course, be written into the "Book of life" for another year, kind of like Santa's list (he knows if you've been bad or good)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm woefully ignorant of the jewish meaning, I know it mostly in a catholic sense
    stevenaia Michinaga: you reflect on your past, and look ahead for a better year, not an issue by issue discussion with a priest, for instance
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and forgiven for your sins
    SophiaSharon Larnia: which brings to my mind, what is sin, or the concept of sin
    stevenaia Michinaga: more a way to reflect on wrong deeds, and a way to better yourself nest time (dropping those past deeds, for instance) and asking other people for forgiveness if you have wronged someone
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I like this that I just read: We are likened to angels, so we too, like the angels, can recite it out loud
    SophiaSharon Larnia: just reading
    stevenaia Michinaga: (there is a list in the service, but it's a rather old "sin" list with many still relivant sins listed, jsut in case you can't remember them all
    stevenaia Michinaga: where did you read that, SSL?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im kinda embarrassed to tell ya, it's basic
    oO0Oo Resident: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks for the halo !!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, yom kippur for beginners, love that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i told ya
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Rhi
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Rhi
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but I do love the idea, letting go of those things, and being pured of them
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi 0o! Steve!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Rhiannon
    Rhiannon Dragoone: thanks for the tp
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Sophia!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: freed* rather
    stevenaia Michinaga: we were talking about dropping sins on this jewish new year, Rhi
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: (the short version)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Tess
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi tess
    oO0Oo Resident: Hiya Tess :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: haven't seen you in a while tess
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi tess!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you've been here before, haven't you, Tess?
    Tess Aristocrat: yes
    Rhiannon Dragoone: dropping sins?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nice to see you
    Tess Aristocrat: well, I saw Rhia's request for a tp ㋡
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah :))
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Like having a portrait absorb them or What?
    stevenaia Michinaga: taking a moment to reflact on them (whatever they might be) and moving on
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Thanks, tess!
    stevenaia Michinaga: I like "clean slate"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: slates are meant to be written on, so maybe dropping is better?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: not sure how other cultures or religions handle that process of cleansing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in catholicism the concept of atonement is similiar
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes dropping is where the words go when they fall off the slate
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a deep human need to forgive, be forgiven and be freed
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or maybe thats just me
    stevenaia Michinaga: it does offer an opportunity to creae a new path from oneself
    stevenaia Michinaga: a moment of creativity to change direction
    SophiaSharon Larnia: seems to me also a moment of submission
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well atonement has This be sincere Ans authentic. Luke Jeffrey daumer. Erm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i didn't get that Rhiannon, can you state that again
    SophiaSharon Larnia: has to be sincere to be authentic?
    stevenaia Michinaga: well that's a good start to make it more than just words without meaning
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: something very comforting in the cyclic nature of ritual as well
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Sophie, the point us, it has This be more than reflecttuon. There has This be a deep character reform.
    Rhiannon Dragoone: or You're just saying it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: preventing harming others again
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes saying it is the beginning to a deeper change
    oO0Oo Resident: *submission*
    stevenaia Michinaga: to whom or what Samúð
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Steve, the beginning. But Like rhw only character reform Luke this occured maybe once..Augustine. That is why he's considered a saint
    oO0Oo Resident: well there's sub (deeper) and mission (beginning toward change), but was just feeling out what SSL said... wondered how she experiences that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its hard to say how I experience it, because I don't. Ive imagined it to be an understanding that my will is god's will and god's will is mine.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Stevenaia disappeared :(
    SophiaSharon Larnia: submitting in that sense would be submitting to god's will
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, Steve. Christians call it receiving Jesus
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Steve is gone, Rhiannon
    oO0Oo Resident: Thanks SSL
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it seems to be that most religious systems have this concept in common, although the feeling of submission to something else, like being for example
    Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
    Alfred Kelberry: neko girl :)
    Tess Aristocrat: Hello Alfred ㋡
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Boxy :)
    oO0Oo Resident: Hi Boxy :)
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Alfred
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we were talking about dropping sins on this jewish new year, and the meaning of atonement, Boxy
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Sophia. It's a core belief then, it would seem
    Alfred Kelberry: shana tova :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is it a core need, then?
    oO0Oo Resident: Le'Alter LeChaim Tovim U'Leshalom
    Tess Aristocrat: I like to think each day as a new beginning. That is my philosophy. Do it every day. Begin anew.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how wonderful to start off so fresh
    Alfred Kelberry: a good one :)
    Tess Aristocrat: If you fall/fail, get up, dust off, keep going
    oO0Oo Resident: and the day is divided into many opportunities as well
    Tess Aristocrat: yes
    oO0Oo Resident: *keep going*
    Alfred Kelberry: stev! :)
    oO0Oo Resident: keep coming back... wb Stevenaia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wb Steveania! is your sister-in-law still with ya?
    Alfred Kelberry: and her amazing dress!
    stevenaia Michinaga: no she left, computer crashed, said we don't talk fast enought to keep her interest :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ohh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: I like our pace
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think it may if she were talking
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Boxy
    stevenaia Michinaga: I said that
    Alfred Kelberry: fast enough? :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heh
    Rhiannon Dragoone: who's This?
    stevenaia Michinaga: My sister-in-lAaw was here in RL
    Rhiannon Dragoone: I guess it's a shame um on my phone Then
    Rhiannon Dragoone: lolo
    SophiaSharon Larnia: looking over Steve shoulder lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: no she was beside me, not in SL
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe your moods just don't match this evening :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes you cant get a word in edgewise, I like those sessions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bruce!
    oO0Oo Resident: Bruce :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Bruce
    Alfred Kelberry: bruce :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, everyone!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (its been a while for that kind of session tho, I think)
    Alfred Kelberry: heh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we were talking about dropping sins on this jewish new year, and the meaning of atonement, Bruce
    Alfred Kelberry: there's a nice quote i heard today...
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Bruce,
    oO0Oo Resident listens
    Bruce Mowbray: great topic!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: listens
    Alfred Kelberry: "minority is only thought of one when it constitutes some kind of a threat to majority"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ill have to think about that one, Boxy
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: We drop so much here:), perhaps its time to talk about what it means to drop things we don't usually think of dropping, past sins
    oO0Oo Resident wonders if sins are seen thus prior to submission (RE: Boxy's quote)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect we do it over time, naturally
    Tess Aristocrat: Does anyone feel we should 'confess' our sins in order to atone for them, i.e., the way Catholics do)
    stevenaia Michinaga: or more structured when in a group
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i keep getting hung up on the word sin
    Tess Aristocrat: I always just use this avi..take it or leave it
    Alfred Kelberry: try to replace the word sin with mistake or error :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: transgressions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: anything that hurts another is a 'sin' as far as I'm concerned but still don't like the word
    SophiaSharon Larnia: transgressions
    oO0Oo Resident: regrets?
    Bruce Mowbray: I feel that awareness is sufficient, Tess. I wouldn't know whom to confess to, except to the person I sinned against.
    Bruce Mowbray: and possibly myself.
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, bruce
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me too Tess, sorry to take a bit to answer
    Tess Aristocrat: ok, trespasses, etc..do you think we must confess?
    Tess Aristocrat: ah, ok..:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: is the sin then in the mind of the person you did an injustice to, or with you?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: if I know I've hurt someone, it is my own, whether they know it or not
    Alfred Kelberry: heh
    stevenaia Michinaga: and likewise if they were hurt but you didn't know it?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: that is a horrible situation, isn't it
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Tess Aristocrat: I always say the Lords prayer, it pretty much covers it all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i tend to run along the idea of serving a penance. It's a private thing and means something different to anyone   (disclaimer: there is no way I can explain what I meant in 10 minutes of text chat, there is more I would have liked to say about this, part is having a little bit to do with karmic duty/balancing, etc).
    Tess Aristocrat: nods
    Alfred Kelberry: example of a sin anyone?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: quite a bit of the volunteer work ive done has been with that in mind.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: for right or wrong 
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bert.
    stevenaia Michinaga: lie, cheat steal?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Bertram
    Rhiannon Dragoone: hi Bert
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bertum, rather
    Tess Aristocrat: and of course you can promise to 'not fail/fall' again, but we are only human and are prone to mistakes
    Tess Aristocrat: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Bertrum
    SophiaSharon Larnia: anything that causes harm'
    Bruce Mowbray: sry, I must go.
    Bruce Mowbray: bye for now.
    stevenaia Michinaga: night bruce
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bruce!
    Tess Aristocrat: goodbye
    stevenaia Michinaga: so SSL, you wouldn't do good unless you did bad?
    oO0Oo Resident: Bye Bruce
    Rhiannon Dragoone: Ned This get going
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no of course not :)
    Alfred Kelberry: stev, i think lying and cheating is commonplace. i wouldn't categorize it as a sin.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but it's in the back of my mind, even at work
    Tess Aristocrat: so, in a sense, its like driving to the store and on the way you get a flat tire. You're not going to fix the tire and just go home, you'll fix the tire and keep going
    Tess Aristocrat: and life is full of flat tires.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: heh
    Tess Aristocrat: and boxes of chocolates..
    Tess Aristocrat: brb..
    stevenaia Michinaga: The world would be a better place if we didn't
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)) time for me to go, good night everyone!!
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Sophia
    Alfred Kelberry: night neko girl :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: if we didnt what?
    SophiaSharon Larnia is hooked
    stevenaia Michinaga: lie, cheat and steal
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes, agreed!!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now
    oO0Oo Resident: Bye SSL
    Alfred Kelberry: it would be idealistic, which is impossible :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it's a start, however, exceptions come later
    stevenaia Michinaga: don't kill.... unless
    stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm..... a show stopper
    oO0Oo Resident: sometimes the impossible, becomes the improbable, becomes the likely
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, another quote: "when you are not practicing, someone else is. when you meet him, he will win." :)
    Alfred Kelberry: um, that's a martial arts saying :)
    oO0Oo Resident: i like to preserve room for miracles
    Alfred Kelberry: i wonder how it relates to meditation :)
    Alfred Kelberry: um... sam? why are you standing with your arms spread? :)
    Alfred Kelberry: been wondering for a while :)
    Tess Aristocrat: I thought it was just me that saw that..
    Tess Aristocrat: my viewer can be a bit laggy at times
    oO0Oo Resident: I think it is a product of perspective Boxy
    Bertrum Resident: how so?
    Alfred Kelberry: or an sl bug :)
    oO0Oo Resident: you see something, and I see something else
    Bertrum Resident: What do you see, Sam?
    oO0Oo Resident: Oh, well my avatar appears seated and hands placed in lap
    Tess Aristocrat: once, I went to philosophy island and a girl told me I was nude!
    Tess Aristocrat: and I was fully clothed
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe cause there is a variety of viewers. imagine if there was only one. same with humans :)
    Tess Aristocrat: and she took a pic and gave it to me..sure enough
    Alfred Kelberry: tess, she only wished it to be true :)
    Alfred Kelberry: ahhh
    Tess Aristocrat: no, in the pic I was nude!
    Tess Aristocrat: lolll
    Alfred Kelberry: sometimes, our dreams come true :)
    Tess Aristocrat: I felt like the Emporer in his new clothing
    Alfred Kelberry: yea, happens all the time
    oO0Oo Resident: what are you wishing for Boxy?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be going, night all
    Alfred Kelberry: various things
    Tess Aristocrat: so, of course, I left..went home, relogged
    Alfred Kelberry: night, stev
    Bertrum Resident: 'night Steve
    Tess Aristocrat: night
    oO0Oo Resident: Night Stevenaia.. Many years!
    oO0Oo Resident: I must go too
    oO0Oo Resident: Farewell all
    Tess Aristocrat: goodnight
    Bertrum Resident: 'nigh Sam
    Alfred Kelberry: one of a wish is probably stop wishing :)
    Alfred Kelberry: night all
    Alfred Kelberry: wuff!
    Bertrum Resident: night all
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    Wonderful session, thanks!! You know, this week I heard the term 'active passivity' which has stayed with me a bit. Comes to mind in your conversation about submission. This practice of asking forgiveness once a year, for offenses known and unknown, has struck me as one of the most beautiful rituals, with the community stopping to see and let each other/themselves off the hook, at the same time. Thanks for talking about it.
    Posted 01:49, 5 Oct 2011
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