2012.11.03 13:00 - Desire is like a box of chocolates - You never know . . .

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

    Eos Amaterasu: Hey ho!
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Kori.
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Korel
    Korel Laloix: Ummm.... are you aware of the meaning of the term "ho"?... lol
    Eos Amaterasu: & Bruce
    Korel Laloix: Good to see you both... smiles
    Eos Amaterasu: as in "hoe"
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, QT.
    Korel Laloix giggles
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eos!
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Eos Amaterasu: sex is everywhere
    Eos Amaterasu: ha ha ho ho
    Qt Core: hi, already here or still here ?
    Korel Laloix: Or Santa Clause can't say ho anymore.. and it has to be in sets... smiles
    Eos Amaterasu cranes his neck, looking for qt
    Eos Amaterasu: ah, there

    Eos Amaterasu: Is "desire" the theme?
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh, yes, I guess that it is.
    Bruce Mowbray: I have been desiring all afternoon to find a live-feed of the OSU vs Illinois game... and have had no luck with that....
    Korel Laloix: Not read much of the previous logs on it.. so don't know what has been said or not.
    Bruce Mowbray: So, my desires are in slack at the moment.
    Korel Laloix: Which OSU?
    Bruce Mowbray: Ohio State Buckeyes.
    Korel Laloix: OH OK.
    Bruce Mowbray: Doesn't matter. I'll catch it on the re-runs.
    Korel Laloix: I would not care if it was OKSU either though... smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: catch*
    Korel Laloix: Canching sounds good though.
    Eos Amaterasu: humoring one's desires
    Bruce Mowbray: Or "flowing" with them . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: those little fallibilities are oft openings to our human
    Eos Amaterasu: like a "weakness" for chocolate
    Korel Laloix: I might have that issue.. just a little.
    Eos Amaterasu: bittersweet, is it not :-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, when I feel some desire - - could be physical, emotional, whatever. . . I figure that's something to look at, for sure.
    Korel Laloix: Speaking of chocolate.. brb
    Eos Amaterasu: oh no, look what we've done!
    Bruce Mowbray: Why would that be a "weakness..."?
    Bruce Mowbray: C ya in a few, Kori.


    Eos Amaterasu: in the sense of we're willing to let our guard down, and even share that down guard with others
    Korel Laloix: http://www.chocolatesource.com/products/detail.asp?selection=576


    Korel Laloix: Having that at the moment.
    Eos Amaterasu: yum... Au hot Masala
    Bruce Mowbray: Looks delicious, Kori.
    Eos Amaterasu: wow, yes
    Korel Laloix: That says it mildly.
    Eos Amaterasu looks at Korel with new respect :-)
    Korel Laloix: My favorite choc at the moment.... smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm wondering why desires need to be "guarded..." and what "letting one's guard down" might mean.
    Eos Amaterasu: human beings have such fine discernments, discrimination, in their tastes and likes and appetites
    Korel Laloix: And it is not too milky or sweet so I can plow through most of a bar in one sitting.
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: dangerous
    Korel Laloix: Desires can be good or bad... on in between.
    Bruce Mowbray 's typist likes dark chocolate.
    Eos Amaterasu: ah yes, Bruce, perhaps it's a "women and fire and other dangerous things" type of thing
    Bruce Mowbray: What makes a desire "bad" or "good"?
    Eos Amaterasu: desire has potential for creating chaos
    Korel Laloix: Just don't let the desires based on wants rule you. The desired based on needs though... are important.
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh! So it's the chaos part that makes desires "bad"?
    Korel Laloix: Or to create order.
    Eos Amaterasu: that's one of the jobs of dakinis in some schools of Tibetan Buddhism, "stir it up, lil' baby..."
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, the dakinis are useful for that.
    Eos Amaterasu: chaordic being: orderly chaos
    Korel Laloix: I desire order around me, so I make it.
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Sun!
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    szavanna Resident: Brucey °͜°
    Eos Amaterasu: hi szavanna
    szavanna Resident: hi Korel, Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: and Xs
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Bruce Mowbray: I desire silence around me. . . so remove from my environment those things that make noise.
    szavanna Resident: hi Qt :)
    szavanna Resident: Xs °͜°
    Xs Andree: ao off
    Qt Core: Hi Sun, Xs
    Eos Amaterasu: umm, you look leopardy
    Bruce Mowbray: Lookin' GREAT, Sun!
    Xs Andree waves waves
    szavanna Resident: ty I am a Cheetah ;))
    Eos Amaterasu: ah, swift Cheetah
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes! Fresh from the African savannah!
    Eos Amaterasu: hi Fc
    Bruce Mowbray: FC!!
    szavanna Resident: I saw Woly today in this avi so I got one :)
    Korel Laloix: I don't do well around other people with silence.. but I love the natural calm from being out in the open in a grassland or the like.
    szavanna Resident: hi FC :)
    Korel Laloix: Even though it is not actually quiet.
    Bruce Mowbray: Fc! Haven't seen you in ever so long!
    Qt Core: Hi Fc
    FcSeeker Resident: _/!\_ to all
    Bruce Mowbray: Namaste, Fc!
    szavanna Resident: _/\_
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Xs! Sorry, didn't see you arrive!
    FcSeeker Resident: appeared with my avatar also to few sessions late days
    Eos Amaterasu: we seem to be playing in the heart of gold band
    szavanna Resident: yes it seems so :)
    Eos Amaterasu: we've been riffing on desire and variations
    Korel Laloix: Heart of Gold Band?
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    FcSeeker Resident: btw; somebody yesterday said some thought of me to be in Finland, but I'm right now in Georgia, USA
    Korel Laloix looks it up
    Bruce Mowbray: Georgia is good.
    Eos Amaterasu: (a line from a Grateful Dead song, Korel: everybody's playing in the heart of gold band)
    FcSeeker Resident: nope
    szavanna Resident: i think I know it
    Eos Amaterasu: Scarlet Begonias
    Korel Laloix: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_of_Gold_Band
    Korel Laloix: OH OK... smiles
    szavanna Resident: :) Korel
    FcSeeker Resident: not to me I mean, and not to my spouse; that's why we decided to continue our life in my home country....to which so many 'strangers' also told that my spouse is only returning home....
    Korel Laloix: Not sure I know any of their music.
    Bruce Mowbray: Wasn't "Heart of Gold" sung by Neil Young?
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    FcSeeker Resident: well; this was the message I wanted to bring here with this 'painting'....how everybody plays in the band of golden heart....
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh44QPT1mPE
    Eos Amaterasu: ah!
    FcSeeker Resident: (was glad that it neither was returned to my inventory)
    Bruce Mowbray: Ah! We all play in the Band of Golden Hearts.
    Eos Amaterasu: What does that mean, to play in the band of golden hearts?
    Korel Laloix: Will try to listen... smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, I was wondering that myself, Eos.
    FcSeeker Resident: and everybody can lay one's heart onto the angel's hand ....if wants to...
    Bruce Mowbray: Laying one's heart into the "Angel's Hand...." Hmmmm.
    FcSeeker Resident: that everybody's heart is at least partly golden....that there is love in each person, no matter what kind one is....or what kind of life one lives...
    Bruce Mowbray: Is this a "desire" ----- to be gaurded, perhaps?
    FcSeeker Resident: even Husseins and Idi Amins and such....
    Korel Laloix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a15Vwj4keI
    Korel Laloix: This is better...
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh, I agree with you on that one, Fc!!
    Xs Andree: There is no 1%
    FcSeeker Resident: that's because there is no life without love...
    Bruce Mowbray: Everyone's heart is partly golden.


    FcSeeker Resident: just that so many human minds makes tricks and change Love to be something else....
    Bruce Mowbray remembers putting the "tiny cushion" over there a long time ago, and is happy that he never removed it.
    Korel Laloix: There are people I know that I think the vast majority are something very toxic... and maybe milligrams of gold.
    FcSeeker Resident: well...not only human kind beings mind...there's selfishness and fears and doubts of the truth within many different kind of life forms outside this 'our' planet...
    Bruce Mowbray notices Stevenaia has arrived....
    Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Steve!
    Eos Amaterasu: ~~, stevie
    szavanna Resident: hi Steve °͜°
    Korel Laloix: Heya
    Qt Core: hi steve
    FcSeeker Resident: yes Korel; such people (beings) do have a lot of lack of love and information/knowledge/understanding
    FcSeeker Resident: Hello Steve :)
    Bruce Mowbray: So, we have hearts [partially, at least] of gold, and we have desires (to be guarded, perhaps), both "good" and "bad" -- or so it is said. . . .
    Bruce Mowbray wonders what to make of all this.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi, finally got internet :)
    szavanna Resident is listening to Neil Young - amazing °͜°
    FcSeeker Resident: ...I just ended collecting fire wood, so I'll take quick shower, but bb soon and role the lines you create here in the mean time
    FcSeeker Resident: CU soon
    Bruce Mowbray: Welcome back, Steve!
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Fc!
    Bruce Mowbray: GOOD to see you again!
    Eos Amaterasu: listening to Korel's heavy metal heart of gold link :-)
    szavanna Resident: take care Fc
    Korel Laloix: A more reasonable version I think.
    stevenaia Michinaga: a week w/o SL
    Bruce Mowbray: May the love that you send out return to you a thousand-fold.
    Xs Andree: I"m very happy to see you all
    szavanna Resident: Xs °͜°
    Eos Amaterasu likes the Neil Young version, but again, human beings are discriminating re what they like :-)
    szavanna Resident: wb Stevie :)
    Korel Laloix: Ooo... found another song.... lol..."Hooker with a Heart of Gold"
    Korel Laloix: Probably not the same thing.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eos. That 'discrimination' thing is why I asked about going with the "flow" of our desires.
    Eos Amaterasu: ho ho ho
    Korel Laloix: Back to that... smiles
    Eos Amaterasu: we are picky, ever so picky
    Bruce Mowbray: Are we laughing now?
    szavanna Resident: °͜°
    Xs Andree: What do we mean by Desire, then?
    Bruce Mowbray laughs.
    stevenaia Michinaga: now I'm making stuffed cabbage, so I may have to momentarily be away as I disassemble the cabbage head (leaf by leaf)
    Eos Amaterasu: "the force that through the green chute drives the fuse"....
    stevenaia Michinaga: *away
    Bruce Mowbray: I once knew a VERY liberal minister of a Christian church who said that "de-sire" meant "from the Father" -- by which she meant, God.
    Eos Amaterasu: steveanaia discriminating cabbage
    Korel Laloix: Desire is such a wide word.
    Qt Core: have to go, bye all
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Xs Andree: Take care, Qt
    Bruce Mowbray: Her interpretation was that ALL desire comes from a divine source.
    Eos Amaterasu: bye, Qt
    szavanna Resident: take care Qt
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Qt!
    Eos Amaterasu: famous New Orleans streetcar named desire
    Korel Laloix: There are divinely driven desires for sure.
    Xs Andree: plato writes the same in Symposium, the discourse of the evening is of Eros, the divine source of Desire
    Korel Laloix: But there are very basic/basal desires as well.
    Bruce Mowbray remembers Tennessee Williams.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes, my minister friend was very hip on Plato, actually.
    Korel Laloix looks up
    Bruce Mowbray: Her whole theology was informed by Platonic thought.
    Xs Andree: it sounds like it. What else did he say?
    Xs Andree: She say. lol
    Bruce Mowbray recalls Plotinus.
    Bruce Mowbray: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plotinus
    Bruce Mowbray: Plotinus was a Christian theologian who overlaid Platonic ideas on Christian theology.
    Bruce Mowbray: This has been adopted hook line and sinker by the Unity Church of Christianity.
    Eos Amaterasu: desire embodied in music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXwjeEJtyLM
    Eos Amaterasu: tenderness
    Korel Laloix: Lots to write down and look up today.
    Bruce Mowbray: http://www.unity.org/
    Bruce Mowbray: (which is basically a positive-thinking phenom.)
    Eos Amaterasu: Chopin Etude Op 25 No 1 (re youtube link)
    Bruce Mowbray: Ohhhh! Wonderful Chopin!
    Bruce Mowbray: DESIRE for the cosmos!
    FcSeeker Resident: b
    szavanna Resident: wb :)
    Bruce Mowbray waves to Fc (!) while listening to Chopin.
    Korel Laloix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOe670xcKhk
    Korel Laloix: This one I like better... smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: (only one minute left on the Chopin, Kori).
    Korel Laloix: Another version of the Chopin.
    Bruce Mowbray: Valentina Lisitsa
    Eos Amaterasu: A favorite lately has been Daniil Trifonov doing the entire set of Op 25 by Chopin, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLZ4WJiDldU&feature=BFa&list=FLI3z2tVF3Oeg4BWnIxx2l8A


    Korel Laloix: brb
    Bruce Mowbray: Daniil Trifonov
    Xs Andree: My Ruin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeQt0-Dzq2U I think has many elements of desire. it is raw, however, and sung without regret
    Eos Amaterasu: love minus zero, no limit
    Eos Amaterasu: (-BD)
    Bruce Mowbray: (somehow prefers Chopin etudes.)
    Eos Amaterasu also likes My Ruin - Terror
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    szavanna Resident: hmm bit scary for me :)
    Bruce Mowbray: Equanimity prevails!
    Eos Amaterasu: desire in music is oft desire transparent
    szavanna Resident: mmty Brucey
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: Seems to me that everything that exists might have a desire -- to be.
    Bruce Mowbray: . . . and that other desires are piled on top of that one.
    FcSeeker Resident: ***<3<3<3***
    szavanna Resident: °͜°
    Eos Amaterasu: "to be" very much implies that
    Bruce Mowbray: ♥ ♥ ♥

    Xs Andree: I have seen that as well in my own struggles with desire, Bruce...there are desires which can be shaken off like fleas, and those which are part of us, and cannot be denied
    FcSeeker Resident: ...and to do ('work') is the desire which brings the need to exist...
    szavanna Resident: hm desires that can be shaken off . :)
    szavanna Resident ponders
    Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! So, in order to "do," we first must "be" -- so "To BE" is the primal desire.
    FcSeeker Resident: well...one may shake off even hunger for a while if it's needed truly...
    Xs Andree laughs
    Eos Amaterasu: Frank Sinatra: do be do be do
    szavanna Resident: even if you are Hungarian?
    Xs Andree: yeah, it can be. i saw this in Ocean Beach
    szavanna Resident: ;p
    Xs Andree: :P
    Bruce Mowbray: Is Ocean Beach still there?
    Bruce Mowbray: Thought the hurricane might have desires of its own about Ocean Beach.
    FcSeeker Resident: hm...as far as I've followed new life to start....the 'to be' is given...to the being without any desires yet....
    Xs Andree: San Diego, yes, but i think that it's purpose in my life has passed, but i do not know.
    Eos Amaterasu: and of royal blood, sza....
    FcSeeker Resident: like I've said that everybody has got a present; that is life
    Bruce Mowbray: Oh, THAT Ocean Beach, sry.
    szavanna Resident: :) Eos
    FcSeeker Resident: but that also it is, that everybody who's chosen to receive and keep that present, is a present to 'All that is'....to life itself...
    FcSeeker Resident: yea....don't much like repeating, but wanted to say that again....
    FcSeeker Resident: (maybe I'm learning more to be a human....)
    Bruce Mowbray: kk, Xs. I would definitely agree with you that there are desires that can be shaken off and others that cannot be denied. . . and that's why I originally raised the point about "flowing" with them....
    Bruce Mowbray: and not resisting them.
    Korel Laloix: Some desires, though, you should resist.
    FcSeeker Resident: why Korel ?
    Xs Andree: Duhkka?
    Bruce Mowbray is afk for just a sec while he "flows" with one of his desires.
    FcSeeker Resident: *giggles*
    szavanna Resident: ;p
    FcSeeker Resident: well...yes...might each need create a desire....
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, there is the other aspect. As Saraha says, "luminosity is obscured only by the rising of desire"
    Eos Amaterasu wonders if Korel got more Chocolat Dolfin
    Korel Laloix: Well, some can end up making you dead or in jail or the like for one thing.
    szavanna Resident: byebyeee all I must go - ty for the Oreo °͜°
    FcSeeker Resident: but that may be to others to say...this little panda's head may be too small to understand all those things
    Bruce Mowbray: [or more Chopin etudes....]
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    szavanna Resident: take care all :)
    Korel Laloix: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n4sP8r0ZUk&feature=related
    Eos Amaterasu: nice to spot you, Szavanna
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Sun!
    Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for coming!
    FcSeeker Resident: szvanna
    Korel Laloix: I think we all have some unhealthy desires.
    FcSeeker Resident: CU
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Bruce Mowbray thinks of his "unhealthy" desires as "uncooked seeds at the bottom of the pot."


    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Fc!
    Xs Andree: i think in the West, especially in America, our desires are dictated to us, we drown in a sea of conflicting desires, and conflicted also against them, even as we are drowned in their need. We are surrounded by images of sex, and still yet told to enjoy it is wrong, unless it is purchased in cellophane, with sanctified packaging, disconnected with its essence, so that we will always want its release, the release from our slavery to it.
    Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful put, Xs.
    Eos Amaterasu is hot for Lola Astanova
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Korel Laloix: You and me both... smiles
    Xs Andree: This is a desire one should resist, I think, and be well practiced in its resistance.
    Bruce Mowbray: So, how do we take off the cellophane and go to the real McCoy?
    Korel Laloix: Resisting Lola?
    Korel Laloix: WE do live in a society that gives us bad choices and temptations all the time.
    Bruce Mowbray: https://www.google.com/search?q=Lola+Astanova&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=wUR&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvnso&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=a4aVUJT3FJCWjAKWg4CoDQ&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=750&bih=706
    Xs Andree: Find love, be gentle in it, forget desire a moment and remember we all desire to be, even the object of our desire, to be accepted as we are, not as we wish it to be, discard the images we've been taught and discover, Be with them.
    Eos Amaterasu: Nicely said, and points to how desire requires discrimination too....
    Bruce Mowbray ponders "to be accepted as we are...."
    Korel Laloix: Yes... but things overlap.. you can be completely in love with someone... and seriously desire them physically.
    Eos Amaterasu: why not?
    Xs Andree: and discipline, as Korel speaks of, self-discipline
    Bruce Mowbray: Physical desire is real too, Kori.
    Korel Laloix: I know.
    Eos Amaterasu: no shit
    Xs Andree: i could not find the desires that were mine until i shed those pushed upon me by the external world
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)!!!
    Korel Laloix: That is what I said.
    Korel Laloix smiles
    Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Xs.
    Bruce Mowbray: And sometime one finds those at Ocean Beach (!)
    Bruce Mowbray: or at least they seem to emerge there....
    Eos Amaterasu: Nice to join you for some great conversation; ciao, all!
    Korel Laloix: One of the things I am dealing with is what desires were programmed in me by my first sexual encounters.
    Bruce Mowbray: Be well, Eos!
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    stevenaia Michinaga: Has anyone touched on the desire ofr bye Eos
    stevenaia Michinaga: opps, bad edit
    Bruce Mowbray: How was it that humans as a species learned to stifle our desiring? I don't know any other animal that does that.
    stevenaia Michinaga: *Bye Eos
    Korel Laloix: But we do learn desires.
    Korel Laloix: Like beer... I don't know anyone that liked it the first time they tasted it.
    Xs Andree: They did, Bruce, thank you for reminding me, and convicting me of it
    Bruce Mowbray: I'm not at all sure that all desires are learned.
    Bruce Mowbray: especially the most basic ones.
    Korel Laloix: Not all.. but some.
    Xs Andree: hierarchy.
    Bruce Mowbray: hunger, sex, being....
    Bruce Mowbray ponders Maslow once again.
    Korel Laloix: I agree with his premise.
    Korel Laloix: But when you get into the less basic structures, it gets very complicated.
    Xs Andree: The desire for some of us to be more than others. to be elevated, put in special places.
    Bruce Mowbray: My own experience is that some of the lower levels of that pyramid are often ignored or postponed when higher levels get achieved.
    Xs Andree nods to Korel
    Korel Laloix: But some learn to be sheepish as well.
    Xs Andree: meek
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off, glad to back, warm and connected, small desires :)
    Korel Laloix: Yes, a better word.
    Korel Laloix: Ciao
    Bruce Mowbray recognizes himself as "sheepish..."
    Xs Andree: poor in spirit, if you are raised x-tian as i was
    Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Steve!
    Xs Andree: Thank you, Korel
    Korel Laloix: Or if you adopt it later in life, like me.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yes.
    Korel Laloix: I am just bossy... smiles
    Xs Andree: someone has to be
    Korel Laloix: And I do have a desire to run things.
    Korel Laloix: But I also have a desire to make sure people are not taken advantage of.
    Korel Laloix: So are those opposite desires, or two sides of the same?
    Bruce Mowbray: I was raised X-tian. . . then went to a X-tian seminary, got a Masters of Divinity degree, and in the process learned I didn't qualify to be a X-tian.
    Xs Andree: i think both, yes
    Korel Laloix: Not qualified?... smiles
    Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Bruce Mowbray: yes.
    Korel Laloix: If you insist...
    Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
    Korel Laloix: Not sure that desires are linear.
    Bruce Mowbray: Well, I don't insist. It's just how it is.
    Korel Laloix: Not sure the right English.
    Korel Laloix: Desires are linked.
    Bruce Mowbray: I really TRIED! Honest!
    Korel Laloix: Circular.
    Bruce Mowbray: Spherical?
    Korel Laloix: Maybe.
    Korel Laloix: Action reaction.
    Korel Laloix: I am trying to think of any desire I have that is not related a bunch of others.
    Bruce Mowbray: I couldn't agree with the first premise of X-ty: that human desire for knowledge of good and evil was opposed to God's will.
    Bruce Mowbray: That's the primal myth that makes all the rest of it necessary.
    Korel Laloix: Hmm.. I don't have a problem with that.
    Bruce Mowbray: all of the sacrifice, etc.
    Korel Laloix: But we can chat about that later.
    Bruce Mowbray: nor do I, actually.
    Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, time for moi to find some din-din to satisfy one of my primal desires!
    Korel Laloix: But desire is such a huge part of our behaviour..
    Korel Laloix: Take care.
    Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Kori -- and everyone, present and departed!
    Korel Laloix: ciao... smiles
    Xs Andree: I agree Korel
    Xs Andree smiles
    Xs Andree: Thank you.
    Korel Laloix: No worries... smiles
    Korel Laloix: Might have to talk with my shrink about this topic.. I am sure that will annoy her.
    Xs Andree: lol
    Xs Andree: She's getting paid, yes?
    Korel Laloix: Yes, but not much on me.


    Xs Andree: At least she has the appreciation of her services in monetary support. Many of us do our "right occupation" without it, or its obvious show of appreciation or station.
    Korel Laloix: Could be a new way for me to consider things.. will have to put some thought into this.
    Xs Andree: you've already given me many new ways of thinking
    Xs Andree: i hope it is returned
    Korel Laloix: It is through a related organization to the Indian Health Service.
    Korel Laloix smiles
    Korel Laloix: I do like this place.. it makes me think.. and gives me the opportunity to contribute likewise.
    Korel Laloix: I really don't understand some of my desires.
    Xs Andree: me too, it is seldom i find both in the same place
    Korel Laloix: They make no sense.
    Korel Laloix: This can be a good forum for sure.
    Korel Laloix: But sometimes.. just a good chat.
    Xs Andree: A friend of mine said to me, to be able to hold a paradox in one's mind, and have it make sense, is the mark of genius
    Korel Laloix: I have heard that quote before somewhere.
    Xs Andree: to believe in both without conflict
    Korel Laloix: Not sure I agree with it though.
    Xs Andree: She didn't know who said it. Only that it was said and she remembered it
    Korel Laloix: Just means you can see something from different perspectives.
    Korel Laloix: And I think most people can do that... but I could be wrong.
    Xs Andree: which is not something many can do, not unless they agree already with what they believe truth is
    Korel Laloix: IN fact.. I think a lot of people deceive themselves with it regularly.
    Xs Andree: when perspectives seem to be opposite each other, they take a side
    Korel Laloix: Maybe my brain is different.
    Xs Andree: you seem to me an administrator, with the gifts of such
    Korel Laloix: Or maybe since I grew up on the seam between two cultures, I was programmed with that ability from an early age.
    Xs Andree: not only with the desire to run things, but to protect others from being abused
    Korel Laloix: An interesting thought.
    Xs Andree: You can't be all things all the time. sometimes you have to be "a" thing, which means you cannot be another.
    Korel Laloix: I wonder what the baggage and benefit I got from that growing expereince... never tried to quantify it before.
    Korel Laloix: On some things I do chose sides for sure.
    Xs Andree: I do as well, trying to remember that the other side cannot be wholly wrong anymore than mine can be entirely correct.
    Korel Laloix: But maybe that is why I like research.
    Xs Andree grins
    Korel Laloix: You have to believe the current model is correct and see how it could be wrong.
    Xs Andree: "That is why they call it "re-search" - to search again
    Korel Laloix: yes.
    Korel Laloix: Well, i will disagreed with you on that.. sometimes, some ideas are just wrong.
    Korel Laloix: But I do believe in absolutes... with a lot of gray in the middle.
    Korel Laloix: brb
    Xs Andree: You are an administrator, you must believe this, most of them do. It helps you to do your job, and it doesn't help you to believe otherwise.
    Xs Andree: Just be you,
    Xs Andree: The truth you can discover when you are done, and you will find you were not wrong, and not right.
    Xs Andree: but justified
    Xs Andree: and followed the right path. We often do things for reasons we think we know, but we do not. The wrong logic can still lead to the right answer.
    Xs Andree: If you are true, then your actions and decisions will be made true, even when your thinking is wrong.
    Korel Laloix: True, but the right logic can lead to a wrong answer as well.
    Korel Laloix: We make mistakes.
    Xs Andree: only when the premises are false, but we assume the premises are true
    Xs Andree nods
    Xs Andree: We cannot see everything, can i give something to you?
    Korel Laloix: And that is a big issue... often our assumptions are wrong.. because we want them to be.
    Korel Laloix: Sure.
    Korel Laloix: brb
    Xs Andree: heh, yeah, seeing what we want to see


    Korel Laloix: wado... will have a read.
    Korel Laloix: But I do have to go do that darn RL thing for a bit.
    Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.
    Xs Andree: me as well, very soon. Take care Korel
    Xs Andree: I love you
    Korel Laloix: Ciao bella... smiles
    Alfred Kelberry: xs! :)
    Xs Andree: Hey boxy
    Xs Andree: give me time for Tea, my throat is hurt, I have bronchitis i think
    Xs Andree: and the irritation in my throat makes it hard to stop coughing
    Xs Andree: Thank you for your advice the other day. It does help.
    Xs Andree: brb
    Alfred Kelberry: eh, i know several people with bad cough. must be a virus.
    Alfred Kelberry: welcome :)
    Alfred Kelberry: funny how it outbreaks at the same time on different continents
    Alfred Kelberry: hi, Guest
    Guest: HEY
    Guest: oops
    Alfred Kelberry: new here?
    Guest: at this place yes
    Alfred Kelberry: welcome then :)
    Alfred Kelberry: this is a discussion group
    Guest: thanx a lot :-)
    Wol Euler: evening all
    Xs Andree: kk back
    Alfred Kelberry: behind you is the board with our meeting schedule
    Alfred Kelberry: woly ;)
    Alfred Kelberry: Guest , take a special note of the Monday 1 pm meeting. arguably the best one :)
    Xs Andree: eee hee hee hee!
    Wol Euler: ... if the guardian actually shows up (cough cough)
    Alfred Kelberry: er...
    Guest: what on right now? i always mix up the time zones
    Xs Andree giggles
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: last Monday? seems to me that I took that session
    Xs Andree: it is good to see you Wol, I missed you
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: thank you, xs, it's nice to be here
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, i missed it
    Alfred Kelberry: hope it was nice and edgy with your presence, Woly :)
    Xs Andree: we were speaking of Desire, most everyone has left though
    Wol Euler: dear old desire, how is she?
    Xs Andree: Seeker came again to speak to us, briefly
    Alfred Kelberry: right, this week's topic
    Xs Andree: lol i can give you a link...:P
    Xs Andree: a song stuck in my head
    Alfred Kelberry: please do
    Xs Andree: i'll send it in im, i already posted it in chat
    Alfred Kelberry: we often share music clips on the weekends :)
    Xs Andree: then i do not feel so bad
    Guest: so how does that work...someone prepares a speech about a certain topic and introduces it to you...and then you discuss it?
    Xs Andree: not really, it is open discussion, some meetings it arises from conversation without introduction
    Xs Andree: some meetings it doesn't come up


    Alfred Kelberry: xs, ouch - dark and goth :)
    Guest: test
    Alfred Kelberry: xs, i think Kori would like it
    Xs Andree: Korel?
    Xs Andree: i think she did.
    Alfred Kelberry: Guest , there's a proposed "theme" each week
    Guest: i c
    Guest: and its by voice chat ...?
    Alfred Kelberry: session host chooses how to pose a particular question
    Alfred Kelberry: no, chat
    Alfred Kelberry: we have a voice chat once a week
    Wol Euler: I infer that Boxy hasn't yet told you that we record these conversations and post them on our website?
    Alfred Kelberry: nope
    Wol Euler: he always "forgets" to do that because he doesn't want to believe that it's important :)
    Xs Andree: yeah, you can ask that your part be taken out if you like.
    Guest: hehe
    Xs Andree: he has warned me before.
    Alfred Kelberry: Woly, I'm so used to it that i don't really notice
    Guest: that's a kinda scary part
    Wol Euler: not about you, boxy. It's about asking permission so we don't get slapped for violating TOS
    Xs Andree: it is so we can catch up on meetings we miss.
    Alfred Kelberry: but you being the one who built the logger certainly would remember :)
    Wol Euler: that has nothing to do with what you like
    Xs Andree: lol
    Wol Euler: Guest tak, we record these sessions and publish them on our website, http://wiki.playasbeing.org/ so that absent members can read what was said.
    Wol Euler: may we have your permission to include your SL name and your comments in the published log?
    Xs Andree: you can still be here otherwise, they just take them out, i think. Yes?
    Wol Euler: it's not that easy, because people respond to your comments.
    Wol Euler: it ends up being a huge chunk of the log missing, and a lot of work
    Alfred Kelberry: xs, in theory
    Alfred Kelberry: in practice it's complicated
    Wol Euler: it's easier to change your name
    Wol Euler: we do that if people insist
    Wol Euler: but best is if people agree :)
    Guest: i got one question....
    Xs Andree: i self-edit
    Guest: can u see me right?
    Alfred Kelberry: i think so
    Xs Andree: I can, Guest tak
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Guest: my clothes aren't rezzing
    Alfred Kelberry: white dress, hat, no shoes
    Guest: okay
    Guest: phew
    Xs Andree: We see them fine, I think.
    Xs Andree: lol
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler: yes, that's what I see
    Guest: wasn't sure if im naked
    Xs Andree: you aren't naked
    Alfred Kelberry: not naked :)
    Guest: good
    Guest: lol
    Wol Euler: nope, we are kind, somebody would have told you :)
    Guest: and my face looks normal ?
    Xs Andree: yes
    Guest: ok
    Alfred Kelberry: Woly, unless you're rhia :)
    Xs Andree: no ruth
    Guest: thanx :-)
    Wol Euler: we did tell her, actually, until we all figured out that she is always naked.
    Wol Euler: Guest tak, may we have your permission to include your SL name and your comments in the published log?
    Alfred Kelberry: did she quit coming here?
    Xs Andree: i saw her once
    Guest: Wol...rather not
    Guest: :-)
    Alfred Kelberry: xs, nice
    Alfred Kelberry: say hi next time :)
    Wol Euler: okay, thanks for telling us
    Xs Andree: I will.
    Wol Euler: Rhi hasn't been here in quite a while, as far as I know
    Alfred Kelberry: eh, we lost Guest  :/
    Xs Andree: I think it was a few weeks ago
    Xs Andree: For Boxy is unwilling that any should be lost, no, not even one.
    Xs Andree: eee hee hee hee!
    Wol Euler: she used to come to my 1am's on the weekends, but hasn't been there in a while
    Alfred Kelberry: actually, about changing names. Woly, can my name be changed in the logs?
    Alfred Kelberry: or make use of a display name instead
    Wol Euler: if you mean can the guardian who edits the log do a text substitution? that is a pain in the ass but it is possible
    Wol Euler: the reason we don't use display names is that the script language cannot guarantee *getting* the display name
    Wol Euler: it's in their own wiki.
    Alfred Kelberry: maybe we could do it on the server?
    Wol Euler: since it's not reliable, we decided not to do it
    Wol Euler: in theory, yes; in practice, a display name can change constantly.
    Alfred Kelberry: this way anyone who wishes to keep his/her name private can easily do it
    Wol Euler: ???????
    Wol Euler: the trouble is that their own name is not enough to ensure their privacy
    Alfred Kelberry: i mean, it would substitute real name to foo on the server side
    Wol Euler: think about Korel. Everybody calls her Kori, everyone knows that "kori" means Korel.
    Wol Euler: so it's not enough to change the entry in the table of speakers, you also have to edit every line of every session
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, but new people can take advantage of it. like Guest  there.
    Wol Euler: but that's not all. Some people call her "kor"
    Wol Euler: you see? where does it stop?
    Alfred Kelberry: it's not for the old guard who already agreed
    Xs Andree: That and anyone who is on during a session will know the name substituted on logs they are not part of by looking at logs they are a part of, unless the name is changed each time
    Wol Euler: right
    Xs Andree: or unless all the names are masked under the same alias...even then, it is not guaranteed
    Wol Euler: what about Guest tak? You called her "Guest "


    Wol Euler: tell me what kind of automatic system is going to be clever enough to change that?
    Wol Euler: I think it's a great idea, I just think it does not work
    Wol Euler: but I encourage you to prove me wrong. Go ahead.
    Alfred Kelberry: yes, it has its drawbacks, but it's something :)
    Wol Euler: "something" is not enough to be worth bothering with, in my opinion
    Xs Andree: what if we logged into the flower as we came in, and if we don't, it simply doesn't record us?
    Wol Euler: telling people that we have a system to keep their privacy, which then does NOT keep it, lulls them into a false sense of security
    Xs Andree: and we could select to be recorded as "Guest"
    Wol Euler: at least this way they know to be alert
    Wol Euler: xs, think what this log would look like if Boxy's lines were missing because he forgot
    Xs Andree: so our words would show up, but as "Guest" for anyone who chose that route.
    Wol Euler: short answer: I'm not going to do it.
    Wol Euler: we have a system that works, we have a system that was THOROUGHLY debated and agreed on
    Alfred Kelberry: there's no way to avoid cctv these days :)
    Xs Andree: yes, but we would have to be complicit in our recording in order to have them recorded
    Xs Andree: which is safest.
    Wol Euler: that is why we ask, xs
    Xs Andree: by logging in, we assent to be recorded, if we forget, we forget.
    Wol Euler pokes boxy. that is why it is important to ask
    Wol Euler: I'm not going to change the system, sorry.
    Xs Andree: and we can remind each other as well.
    Wol Euler: if anyone else wishes to take over this project ENTIRELY then I will be happy to give it to them ENTIRELY
    Xs Andree: that is fine. Just like to bring ideas.
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Xs Andree: lol
    Xs Andree: I feel your frustration
    Alfred Kelberry: Woly, i don't think it's that important. it's being overly careful. dozens of sims record chats without any permission and do just fine.
    Wol Euler: *** reminder to GOC, Guest did NOT agree to being named. Please anonymize her ***
    Xs Andree: you've been anonymized  

    (Note from Bruce:  I have changed all of "her" comments to "Guest.")

    Wol Euler: boxy, what you think is not significant. The Terms of Service clearly state that we may not publish without permission.
    Xs Andree: because enforcement is beyond the scope of LL without a complaint being filed.
    Wol Euler: but if a complaint is filed?
    Alfred Kelberry: Woly, i get that, but in practical terms, it's of little significance.
    Xs Andree: I think it is important to Woly because she's taken on the responsibility
    Xs Andree: and she needs our cooperation to fulfill the duties we've asked her to do.
    Wol Euler: if a complaint is filed, then we will say to the lab "Boxy said that it is not significant"
    Alfred Kelberry: i don't mind :)
    Xs Andree: and the Lab will say, you agreed to the TOS
    Xs Andree: Boxy doesn't matter
    Wol Euler: exactly
    Xs Andree: and it will fall on Wol and PaB
    Wol Euler: it's like paying taxes, nobody likes doing that but it is part of civilized life
    Xs Andree: and the sim owner
    Wol Euler: just shut up and do it
    Xs Andree: or speak up and don't.
    Xs Andree: :P{
    Alfred Kelberry: :)
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: it's easy for you to say that it is not significant, but I wrote that script. Pema owns this group.
    Wol Euler: WE would be in trouble, not you.
    Alfred Kelberry: anyhow, this logger isn't going anywhere, so... we might as well shut up :)
    Wol Euler: we take that seriously even if you do not
    Wol Euler: agreed
    Wol Euler: okay
    Wol Euler: next topic
    Xs Andree: I love you two.
    Alfred Kelberry: ok, i have one
    Wol Euler: yeah, we love each other too
    Xs Andree: I can tell.
    Wol Euler: I really like Boxy, seriously.
    Wol Euler: but he winds me up
    Alfred Kelberry: we love each other more in rl :)
    Wol Euler: and I sometimes think it is deliberate
    Alfred Kelberry: outside of pab
    Wol Euler: we had a good time in Berlin ;)
    Alfred Kelberry: Woly, funny, i think the same :)
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Wol Euler: see?
    Wol Euler: what is your new topic, boxy?
    Alfred Kelberry: er... i forgot :)
    Wol Euler: bah
    Alfred Kelberry: Woly: oh, btw, do try http://quietube.com
    Alfred Kelberry: it may solve your "not available in your country" issue
    Alfred Kelberry: or at least solve the ad problem :)
    Wol Euler: heheh, nice one.


    Alfred Kelberry: i have an ad blocker on the tcp stack level, so when i open an ad supported clip, it simply doesn't show anything. one click and it's solved :)
    Xs Andree: heading out for rl, take care all
    Alfred Kelberry: xs, be good
    Wol Euler: goodnight, xs, take care
    Wol Euler: actually I think I'll move on too
    Alfred Kelberry: right, it's late
    Wol Euler: goodnight, dear boxy
    Wol Euler: take care
    Alfred Kelberry: auf, Woly
    Wol Euler: :)
    Alfred Kelberry: i do love you, btw :)
    Wol Euler: despite all our arguments, yes-
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Alfred Kelberry: which are really insignificant, if you think of it :)
    Wol Euler: ha
    Alfred Kelberry: oh, timely :)
    Wol Euler: [15:17] the voice: Wol Euler is in love with boxy

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