2013.08.21 07:00 - Intentions and Traditions

The Guardian present was Zen Arado. All comments are by Zen Arado.

Zen (zen.arado): Hi uns, Marge
Uns Mistwalker: Hi Zen
Zen (zen.arado): I'm here early today :)
Uns Mistwalker: you are.... though your hair hasn't quite arrived for me.
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): Just woke up...
Zen (zen.arado): not wearing long hair
PaB Listener Master: whispers: The session has not yet been claimed by a Guardian.
Uns Mistwalker: ok. then it has arrived!
Zen (zen.arado): felt like a change

Zen (zen.arado): hope this is working
Zen (zen.arado): I had to go back to Firestorm
Zen (zen.arado): just couldn't TP anywhere with LL viewer
Zen (zen.arado): don't know why
Uns Mistwalker: wow.... so it ended up being a viewer problem.

The region crashed at this point so we went to Kira Cafe:

Uns Mistwalker: seems to happen regularly, eh?
Zen (zen.arado): wb Uns
Zen (zen.arado): yeh every week around this time
Zen (zen.arado): must have missed last warning
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): I didn't see the warning either.
Uns Mistwalker: think we should just default to here for the wednesday gatherings?
Uns Mistwalker: nor did I.
Uns Mistwalker: hi San
Zen (zen.arado): some don't like it if I do that
Zen (zen.arado): Hi San :)
San (santoshima): greetins :)
Zen (zen.arado): they would rather be at the pavilion
San (santoshima): g
Zen (zen.arado): wb Marge
Zen (zen.arado): think we already exhausted the topic
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Uns Mistwalker: what was the topic?
Zen (zen.arado): nobody likes my perspective anyway
Uns Mistwalker: (I missed Monday)
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): Intention
Uns Mistwalker: /me grins.
Zen (zen.arado): something about where does motivation come from
Uns Mistwalker: oh, I see.
Zen (zen.arado): is that right Marge, San?

Intention:

Marjorie Chardin (dr42): Last week was Motivation, this week intention.
Zen (zen.arado): Firestorm seems to be recording chat ok at least
Uns Mistwalker: I see.
Zen (zen.arado): what is intention?
Zen (zen.arado): one of those words we use
Zen (zen.arado): what on earth does it mean?
Uns Mistwalker: Intention has to do with impulses that arise in the brain in particular contexts -- their source depending upon what particular faculty were are attending to at the moment.
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/intention?s=t
Zen (zen.arado): 'their source' hmm
Uns Mistwalker: I'm coming from a 'sufi' perspective there.
Zen (zen.arado): dictionaries just give you other words
Zen (zen.arado): more words
Zen (zen.arado): I have no idea where my thoughts and intentions come from
Zen (zen.arado): if you ever meditate you see all these thoughts spring up
Uns Mistwalker: Yes.
Zen (zen.arado): some completely unrelated to anything in my present context apparently
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Moon :)
MoonLight (moonlight.mellow): /me Namaste
Uns Mistwalker: within my tradition's context.... the sources of thought impulses are four.
Uns Mistwalker: 1. the self.
Zen (zen.arado): only four?
Zen (zen.arado): go ahead
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): ηαмαѕтє
Uns Mistwalker: yes.... well --- 'self' though illusory, covers a lot of territory.
Zen (zen.arado): sure does
Zen (zen.arado): Are you typing Uns?
Uns Mistwalker: so... 1. Self. 2. Angelic. 3. Demonic. 4. God.
Zen (zen.arado): ah
Zen (zen.arado): hmm all debatable as to their existence to me
Uns Mistwalker: so, the idea is to be aware of which particular faculty one is identifying with in the moment that a thought impulse arises....and form intention from that.
Zen (zen.arado): that kinda negates the idea we have free will surely?
Zen (zen.arado): like another entity planting thoughts in our brains?
Uns Mistwalker: I don't think so. The issue of free will/determinism is rather seen as a logical category error.
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Uns Mistwalker: from our point of view -- we have fee will.
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Bert
Bertram Jacobus: hi folks :-)
MoonLight (moonlight.mellow): smiles Hello
Zen (zen.arado): region shuts down around this time every week Bert
Uns Mistwalker: from the point of view of "Ultimate Reality" our choices are already known.
Uns Mistwalker: hey Bert.
San (santoshima): please, uns, could you state the tradition you are referring too?
Zen (zen.arado): yes agree Uns
Zen (zen.arado): most don't though
Zen (zen.arado): I see 'myself' as just an item in the vast interplay of forces
Uns Mistwalker: San, I am a Muslim, and a poor example of a follower of a traditional mystical tradition called "Sufism."
Zen (zen.arado): but also part of all that...not a separate item
San (santoshima): ty
Uns Mistwalker: Yes, Zen.... exactly.
Zen (zen.arado): surpirsed that is in Islam
Uns Mistwalker: the self is seen as illusory.
Zen (zen.arado): or perhaps only Sufi-ism?
Uns Mistwalker: I think more particularly in Sufism....though from the point of view of adherants of that tradition..... it is implicit in the teachings of Islam itself.
Zen (zen.arado): only thing..as soon as you say that, it doesn't leave much to talk about
Uns Mistwalker: why not? Understanding one's faculties, and the sources of thought impulse.... is non-trivial.
Zen (zen.arado): but if it is ultimately all a great mystery
Zen (zen.arado): not much to discuss
Bertram Jacobus: enlightenment needs no discussions i gues ...
Bertram Jacobus: guess*
Uns Mistwalker: hmmm... we would say.... that it is in no way possible to encompass reality within our limited faculties.
Zen (zen.arado): same thing really then?
Uns Mistwalker: but that we can get closer and closer.... clear and clear.
Zen (zen.arado): hmm but I'm not so sure
Uns Mistwalker: clearer and clearer.
Zen (zen.arado): I used to think that
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps we just get more and more lost in our concepts and distinctions
Zen (zen.arado): but we use them because of usefulness

Home:

Bertram Jacobus: i prefere to find my home ... ;-)
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Uns Mistwalker: Yes.....and if they continue to be useful....we continue to use.
Uns Mistwalker: Isn't 'home' a matter of what you identify with, Bert?
Zen (zen.arado): we see patterns in nature and use that knowledge
Bertram Jacobus: not necessairily i think uns -
Zen (zen.arado): and humans will never stop trying to inderstand I guess
Zen (zen.arado): what do you mean by 'home' Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: being
Zen (zen.arado): but we are home
Zen (zen.arado): where else would we be?
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes i loose it
Bertram Jacobus: and i forget, don´t feel this home
Zen (zen.arado): it is always there no matter what we do
Zen (zen.arado): what do you/me expect it to be like?
Zen (zen.arado): I don't think there is any place of supreme bliss and peace
Zen (zen.arado): it is just ordinary life ..or extraordinary when you think of it
Zen (zen.arado): but it is not all pleasant
Zen (zen.arado): and never could be I think
Bertram Jacobus: it´s the state of mind i guess
Zen (zen.arado): nature is full of creatures killing other creatures for instance
Bertram Jacobus: it´s accepting and dropping
Zen (zen.arado): I think the best we can do is accept it as it is
Zen (zen.arado): and not keep searching for something better that doesn't exist
Uns Mistwalker: right, Zen.... in my tradition.... there are simply the manifestations of different Names and Attributes of God -- 'supreme bliss' is more like a matter of recognizing them as they arise, and behavbing toward them with the proper courtesy.... there is no difference in that sense between 'pleasant and unpleasant'
Zen (zen.arado): the searching makes us discontent and we suffer I think
Zen (zen.arado): yes Uns..they are only words we attach to experiences
Zen (zen.arado): as soon as we start to use language we are into polarities too
Uns Mistwalker: so the function of 'intellect' shifts --- it is not for 'solving problems'....but rather for 'recognizing Reality.'
Zen (zen.arado): it seems to operate like that
Zen (zen.arado): every word has an opposite
Zen (zen.arado): good/bad right/wrong
Zen (zen.arado): like we divide reality into two parts
Uns Mistwalker: yes.... again, a matter of the level upon which we are discoursing.
Uns Mistwalker: there IS a play of opposites -- yin-yang --- from the point of view of ordinary consciousness.
Zen (zen.arado): we have to share the meanings of words like 'intellect' I guess
Zen (zen.arado): yes but isn't that invented by humans Uns?
Zen (zen.arado): it's a useful way to label what is harmful or safe for us from early times
Uns Mistwalker: yes it is.... i use it as a kind of place-holder for the set of all opposites.....night/day.....heaven/earth, inward outward.
Uns Mistwalker: etc.
Zen (zen.arado): but if we believe in them too much we see the world as a divided-up place
Zen (zen.arado): and then we add more gradations to the rough oppositions
Zen (zen.arado): does this make any sense?
Uns Mistwalker: Yes.... as you said.... all of which have limited.... and only limited, utility.
Zen (zen.arado): what I am saying I mean
Uns Mistwalker: it does to me.
Zen (zen.arado): well most don't usually agree
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Uns Mistwalker: In my tradition...we recognize that the ordinary divisions and labels of things.... are useful.... primarily to facilitate social life.
Uns Mistwalker: The word "Shari'a"..... has a root meaning of a broad path... or road.
Zen (zen.arado): I see
Uns Mistwalker: The idea is that these concepts and rulings.... facilitate life in a society.

Traditions:

Zen (zen.arado): I have been in various traditions
Zen (zen.arado): not sure if it a good or bad idea to be in one
Zen (zen.arado): last one was Zen tradition
Zen (zen.arado): but whatever people feel most comfortable with
Zen (zen.arado): it kinda give a grounding
Zen (zen.arado): gives
Zen (zen.arado): a community of like-minded people
Zen (zen.arado): nice to be in a community
Zen (zen.arado): and similar spiritual views is a good basis
Bertram Jacobus: to me, every community where is real love, is helpful
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Uns Mistwalker: Yes. I think that the utility of a tradition is that it provides an internally-consistent (at least in some cases).... framework for interaction. For me, the problem with 'no-tradition'.... is that it means I pick and choose.... and I worry I will omit...precisely... the stuff I 'don't like' which may be exactly what I need to confront.
Zen (zen.arado): good points Uns
Zen (zen.arado): what we like might not be what is best for us
Zen (zen.arado): we might need some correcting
Bertram Jacobus: [sry - phone] ...
Uns Mistwalker: isn't there an english cliche that goes something like.... "the road to hell pis paved with good intentions" ?
Zen (zen.arado): yeh..not sure what it means
Zen (zen.arado): that we never get around to doing good acts?
Uns Mistwalker: i think so.... and from my perspective...one of the reasons it is useful to understand the sources of thought impulses.
Free Radar HUD: /me v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
Uns Mistwalker: (I'm aware that I'm talking.... a LOT....and concerned that I am not leaving sufficient space for others to jump in.
Zen (zen.arado): me too Uns
Zen (zen.arado): anyone else want to comment?
Zen (zen.arado): wb Bert
Bertram Jacobus: ty ...
Bertram Jacobus: i wrote already some words ...
Zen (zen.arado): you like the Tibetan Buddhist tradition Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: so may be - space for the others ?
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): I had not put much energy into thinking about your discussion.
Bertram Jacobus: ehm - i´m very familiar with it zen, but as i posted before : every group with love is so to say, part of my home ...
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps I am in a kind of non tradition tradition
Zen (zen.arado): of non duality
Bertram Jacobus: oops - phone again ! ... sry :-(
Zen (zen.arado): some refer to an ancient teaching called the Astvakra Gita
San (santoshima): :)
Zen (zen.arado): Ashtavakra
Zen (zen.arado): older than Buddhism
Zen (zen.arado): and I like Taoism
Uns Mistwalker: does the word have meaning? or is just a 'handle'?
Zen (zen.arado): is that a tradition?
Zen (zen.arado): it probably has but I don't know what it is Uns
Uns Mistwalker: Ashtavakra
Zen (zen.arado): one thing I am not so keen on is following scriptures
Zen (zen.arado): even in Buddhism
Zen (zen.arado): I think the Buddha only gave guidelines
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): one having eight bends
Zen (zen.arado): not rules for all time
Uns Mistwalker: I suppose it depends on the scripture... and the tradition's relationship to it.
Zen (zen.arado): that's the meaning Marge?
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): yes
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): a sage mentioned in Hindu scriptures described as one born with eight different deformities of the body
Zen (zen.arado): well in Christianity thet kep telling me it wasn't 'biblical' to do certain things
Zen (zen.arado): but some of the injunctins were designed fro a stone age society
Uns Mistwalker: /me grins. The Christians have pretty well deconstructed their own scriptures.
Zen (zen.arado): ah sounds familiar
Zen (zen.arado): maybe somebody like me then
Zen (zen.arado): atleast the Buddha tld disciples not to accept authorities and teachings and go rether on their own experience
Zen (zen.arado): though that is in a Sutra
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps we need a framework to start off in
Uns Mistwalker: or as Dylan put it.... don't follow leaders and watch your parking meters."
Zen (zen.arado): and then eventually outgrow it
San (santoshima): excuse me, family visiting, must make them breakfast
San (santoshima): thansk for the conversation
Zen (zen.arado): kk byee San
Uns Mistwalker: bey for now San
Zen (zen.arado): enjot breakfast :)
Uns Mistwalker: There are whole books written (by sufis).... on "the delusions of the Sufis"
Zen (zen.arado): maybe if Zen centre was accessible to me I would go there
Uns Mistwalker: "outgrowing the Sharia" gets a lot of print.
Uns Mistwalker: Yeah.... access matters.
Zen (zen.arado): interesting
Zen (zen.arado): when I could go to retreats I was happy with Zen
Zen (zen.arado): you grow cold away from other followers
Zen (zen.arado): true of every tradition
Uns Mistwalker: /me nods. Sangha is an important part of Buddhist tradition, isn't it?
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): my only sangha is a group in SL
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): One of the the parts of the vows of refuge.
Zen (zen.arado): Original Face group
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): Three
Zen (zen.arado): yes Marjorie?
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): One of the three parts of the vows of refuge.
Zen (zen.arado): ah yes...I take refuge in the sangha
Zen (zen.arado): difficlt if you can't get into the place
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): Buddha, dharma, sangha
Zen (zen.arado): it is open to LGTB people but not to the disabled
Zen (zen.arado): we don't matter :(
Zen (zen.arado): I used to go to an online Zen sangha
Zen (zen.arado): but that isn't the same
Zen (zen.arado): SL is better than that
Uns Mistwalker: yes. SL engages our mirror neuron systems.
Zen (zen.arado): I 'took' the 16 precepts of Zen
Zen (zen.arado): but I think they are a bit dualistic now
Zen (zen.arado): who is this 'me' that should follow them?
Zen (zen.arado): guess they are a practical thing
Zen (zen.arado): guides for how to live together
Zen (zen.arado): originally in a monastery
Uns Mistwalker: /me nods. In my academic study of Buddhism....we were taught that the only "real" buddhists were monks and nuns.
Zen (zen.arado): The Threefold Refuges
 I take refuge in Buddha (the principle of enlightenment within).
 I take refuge in dharma (the enlightened way of understanding and living).
 I take refuge in sangha (the community of beings).
 Pure Precepts
 I vow to avoid all action that creates suffering
 I vow to do all action that creates true happiness.
 I vow to act with others always in mind.
 Grave Precepts
 Not to kill but to nurture life.
 Not to steal but to receive what is offered as a gift.
 Not to misuse sexuality but to be caring and faithful in intimate relationships.
 Not to lie but to be truthful.
 Not to intoxicate with substances or doctrines but to promote clarity and awareness.
 Not to speak of others’ faults but to speak out of loving-kindness.
 Not to praise self at the expense of others but to be modest.
 Not to be possessive of anything but to be generous.
 Not to harbor anger but to forgive.
 Not to do anything to diminish the Triple Treasure but to support and nurture it.
Uns Mistwalker: They are beautiful, Zen.
Uns Mistwalker: thank you for the conversation...time for me to amble on.
Zen (zen.arado): I think the opposiye view is gaing ground nowadays Uns
Uns Mistwalker: you and I really get going, eh?
Zen (zen.arado): that facing everyday life is better
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Zen (zen.arado): yep
Marjorie Chardin (dr42): bye
Uns Mistwalker: bye for now, Zen and Marge.
Zen (zen.arado): byee Marjorie and Uns