19-21 - To and fros re dreams, imaginations, illusions

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    Sometimes there is the vibrance of interesting discussions in the air.  

    Perhaps an overarching or recurrent theme is the one of to and fro, sometimes called dialectic when each ‘to’ affects the subsequent ‘fro’ and vice versa.  Various perspectives informed by friendly minds and hearts, all learning together, sharing uncertainties, insights, doubts…

    From a session where concern about need, shame, trust are discussed:

     how we can be asheamed of need, of being needed ; trusting ourselves and others…the qays we ‘touch’ each other and ourselves and the painful inhibiting consequences when doubt prevails over trust.


    To a session where continuing discussion of faith, blind or otherwise, devotion, with our without mindfulness, and exploration of unfamiliar perspectives can occur:

    obedient love…aspects of love, from devotion (with and without mindfulness), faith or blind faith, gaining familiarity with new experiences (Allah)


    To a discussion about the relationship of dreams and dreaming to time and to reality, a discussion which seemed to invite many perspectives and to only ‘scratch the surface’ Several sessions seemed to embrace this interesting topic:


    Maxine Walden: the reality of the dreamer seems to differ from the recaller of the dream?
    Bertrum Quan: The reality of dream and the reality of RL are in a sense one in the same---and in their difference there may be important clues of the the illusion of reality.
    Pila Mulligan: if I understand Bert correctly, I agree that waking memories and memories of dreams exist simply as events in our experience, but our mind arranges them as linear of sequential events, if it can
    Pila Mulligan: in some cases it seems unreasonable to the mind, though, if the dream event relates to a waking event that happens later in sequence
    Fefonz Quan: I think that Bertrum pointed to something very intruiging - waking up from a dream is like a practice of the mind in waking up into a whole different reality. and it is amasing how we manage to do it every morning in just a few seconds


    Check out more wonderful tidbits at


    A discussion which seemed to continue in the next log with special emphasis on precient dreams (fortelling the future) and déjà vu (revisiting the past)…lucidity in dreams linked with lucidity in waking life.  Also the expansion of time and spacetime…


    To a discussion about whether the dream tells the absolute truth or is just as the waking mind sometimes misleading or misguiding.  A lengthy discussion available at The truth of dreams

    4/21 1300: Dream on and on:  The rather extra-ordinary discussion about prescient dreaming of an impressive sort, 

    Mickorod Renard: I have had a few experiences
    Mickorod Renard: not quite predictive
    Mickorod Renard: but being extraordinary,,and then becoming reality
    sophia Placebo: i agree with mick in his discreption
    Mickorod Renard: once I quoted a whole song and video of a record that didnt come out for a year or two afterwards

    Mickorod Renard: another was the dream of a distraught woman calling out her daughters name

    Mickorod Renard: the name was unusual,,i woke up in a terible state and insisted that my partner remember the name should i forget
    Mickorod Renard: afterward i felt disturbed by it as i felt It was a massage
    Mickorod Renard: message
    Mickorod Renard: one year later,,the girl was lost,,the one with the odd name
    sophia Placebo: what did you feel back then? when it come to reality
    Mickorod Renard: I cannot say,,,a mix of shock but also resignment
    Mickorod Renard: one thing these things pose to me is that it suggests that something can transcend time
    Mickorod Renard: and if so,,puts a diferent perspective on things

    and the burden such places on the dreamer (is there a responsibility which goes along with these dreams) but also the isolation, in that others cannot really appreciate the nature, extra-ordinary experience of having such dreams.   

    Fael Illyar: what I'm going at is, was there anything you wouldn't have done if you hadn't seen the dream?
    Mickorod Renard: at least 2 things come to mind
    Mickorod Renard: one is that I may have become complacent in the facination of them,,as they arrive with long periods without
    Mickorod Renard: and secondly, I may not have felt the compassion for the loss the parents felt,,as its normal to just think of the child
    Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, that might well be the dreams purpose.
    Fael Illyar: number 2
    Mickorod Renard: the child didnt feature at all,,just the mother
    Mickorod Renard: but the name was significant,,as when asleep,,i forced myself to wake,,if fact my jaw was still frozen in sleep and I couldnt even talk,,but i had to utter the name of the child

    The session continues with more detail about the burden, the disturbance to the dreamer that such dreams may cause…and there is a lot more great discussion.

    http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/04/2009.04.21_13%3a00_-_dream on

     and on

    Another rich to and fro regarding imagination and illusion from friendly different minds:

    question of imagination vs illustion.  Some equate, Adams suggested imagination as a focused way of looing at illusion.  

    The layering of meaning and truth; layering of authenticity

    Adams Rubble: I kind of think they are two different things Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I think that's what I'm working to clarify...projection/imagination
    Adams Rubble: imagination can be a focused way of looking at illusion

    Fael Illyar: alternatively, you could also try asking yourself, what else is there? in addition to imagination.

    A bit further:

    Fael Illyar: If I had to try to put things to words, we have imagination and then we have a sense truthfulness attached to the imagination and call other imaginations true and others not true and others yet undecided and ... well you get the picture.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Layers of authenticity maybe?

    Fael Illyar: oh and, the sense of truthfulness is also imagination :)
    Susi Alcott: truly ?
    Eliza Madrigal: So, as a practice, one sits with the "problem" and begins to see it differently...at different angles, allowing Being to infuse, and see where it might begin to unwravel ..where there might be more space than previously thought?

    And still further

    Eliza Madrigal: It seems a spectrum that people see differently...
    Eliza Madrigal: Imagination seems to me that actual facility...the actual projector.

    And a little further along

    Susi Alcott: a my way of 'thinking' is to look and observe...try to know enough what's there the truth...
     but sure my way is to seek the reasons to the problems… as there are so many problems that are illusion
     so; then they are good to see as imagined; not true… and the problem is gone… as so many things I ---as the healer---have noitced to be such

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, so your perspective is of uncovering the illusion with someone and then it poofs :)

    Susi Alcott: that imagined thoughts has created the illnesses too

    Susi Alcott: ah yes

    Eliza Madrigal: You need to be able to see from their viewpoint and feel empathy to do that I'd imagine...to understand where they are stressed/stuck.

    Susi Alcott: so; there is not much difference to my point of view, if we use the word illusion or imagination

    The guardian suggests: Yes, interpreting differently seemed a theme, as is often the case when individuals are working to apply what they are discovering to their unique daily lives. 

    Genesis arrives and brings up "considering vs. obsessing" about the illusion.


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