22-24 - In Silence, In Question

    Scribed by Eos Amaterasu

    I chose to make 4 slices, each extending through the same time slot across three days 



    The 1:00 AM sessions

    2009.06.22 01:00 - silent


    Gaya sat silently for a half an hour at Playgoda.

    2009.06.23 01:00 - quiet (as usual)


    The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.

    I sat quietly for half an hour, listening to the birds and showing my kids how to hide the pool, and put it back. Real magic!

    2009.06.24 01:00 - How 'old' are emotions?


    Nymf Hathaway: I came here to get surprised by the topic :)

    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh

    Tarmel Udimo: well today I was thinking why do we feel tearful when we experience beauty and awe or even when we have a realization about Being

    Tarmel Udimo: one would think this would create happiness or joy:)

    Tarmel Udimo: or at least the emotional expression of it

    Nymf Hathaway: Nice one :)

    Nymf Hathaway: seems my body reacts with the thought of a picture from two roses laying in the water.... it feels as if I want to open up for the beauty

    Nymf Hathaway: Is thinking... is this effect from beauty a recent development in history (since we create beauty ourselfs) or were the first humans reacting the same?

    Tarmel Udimo: good question?

    Nymf Hathaway: as there is beauty in nature :)

    Tarmel Udimo: nods

    Nymf Hathaway: seems to me it is a very "old" feeling

    Tarmel Udimo: yes looking forward to seeing if RL and Sl line up

    Nymf Hathaway: yes I can imagine

    Tarmel Udimo: I think it will its not like PaB is about externals

    Nymf Hathaway: I agree

    Nymf Hathaway: Needs to log off :( Tarmel I loved talking with you :) Thank you for the subject that will come to mind every few hours today :)

    Tarmel Udimo: ty and your thoughts will resonate for me too


    The 7:00 AM sessions

    2009.06.22 07:00 - just 'Lil Ol' Me


    By default the Guardian for this meeting seems to have been Adams Rubble. 

    I sat for a bit more than a half hour and no one came.


    2009.06.23 07:00 - cleverly worded Title


    Riddle Sideways: personally/lately there has been too much happening to really SEE things

    Riddle Sideways: details have taken over

    Adams Rubble: in your RL?

    Riddle Sideways: all lives

    Adams Rubble nods

    Riddle Sideways: dealing with tree bark flakes instead of forest management

    Adams Rubble: easy to do

    Riddle Sideways: seems just last week I could see everything connected

    Adams Rubble: Amazing how quickly things can change back and forth isn;t it

    Riddle Sideways: and now seems nothing connects or reaches outside

    Adams Rubble: Last weekend I learned about emptiness

    Riddle Sideways: was that just last week

    Adams Rubble: :)

    Adams Rubble: It seemed a negative term and was surprised to find it is just seeing that in the moment, there is nothing there until we write something on it

    Adams Rubble: so we can quickly go in a new direction

    Adams Rubble: It is such a freeing thought

    Riddle Sideways: Sine waves are more gentle

    Riddle Sideways: if we are swinging toooo far to one side (of anything) we swing back the other

    Talk about digital..

    Riddle Sideways: if we pick any one subject

    Riddle Sideways: that has 2 parts (0/1)

    Riddle Sideways: it often looks like we stop at one and start toward the other

    Riddle Sideways: but in having to put away our toys and start picking up others

    Riddle Sideways: we are really swinging

    Riddle Sideways: on some sine wave

    Adams Rubble: yes, I see that



    Adams Rubble: but we don't have to put away our toys, we just drop them

    Adams Rubble: that's the neat part

    Adams Rubble: no cleaning up

    Riddle Sideways: yes,

    Riddle Sideways: on only one digital subject we have deeper/taller and longer/short sine waves

    15 minutes

    Adams Rubble: The shorter stops seem to help with that

    Adams Rubble: I have gotten out of the habit of doing them regularly

    Adams Rubble: help focus on what I am doing at work

    Adams Rubble: the purpose rather than the "bark" you mentioned

    Adams Rubble: there is peace in that

    Riddle Sideways: regular appreciation seems easy

    Riddle Sideways: regular seeing the presence gets harder

    Riddle Sideways: less often

    Adams Rubble nods

    Riddle Sideways: of Appearance is even less often

    Adams Rubble: no automatic method of getting to the presence if being part

    Adams Rubble: it seems to come in its own good time

    Adams Rubble: for me anyway

    Riddle Sideways: Yet (for me) coming the other way works too

    Riddle Sideways: Being seems always there

    Riddle Sideways: the presentation of usually there

    Riddle Sideways: here, there and everywhere

    Adams Rubble: :)

    Adams Rubble: that is great!

    Riddle Sideways: I seem to have the least connect with appearence

    Adams Rubble: hmmm

    Riddle Sideways: coming from either side

    Riddle Sideways: not sure why

    Adams Rubble: maybe it is just words

    Riddle Sideways: probably

    Riddle Sideways: just a word that has 2 sides

    Adams Rubble: if you spend much of your time with presentation and Being then appearances not so important I would think

    sophia Placebo: how did you miss the appearance?

    Riddle Sideways: hmmmm, I don't think I ever miss the appearance

    Riddle Sideways: but (for me) it is the hardest of the 5 words

    sophia Placebo: how so?

    Riddle Sideways: oh dear, looking at it now. After you mentioning it that way ...

    Riddle Sideways: I can't come up with why, how, where

    Riddle Sideways: seems not difficult at all

    sophia Placebo: hehe

    Adams Rubble: :)

    sophia Placebo: im still in chaos state with these terms

    Riddle Sideways: Appearance is now the easiest thing in reality

    Adams Rubble thinks they are easiest on left and harder going to the right

    2009.06.24 07:00 - pride and the Judge


    Mickorod Renard: I think what we learn here is great,,hiya yaku,,,,,,but I wish I didnt keep loosing it


    Fefonz Quan: i feel in a way that sometimes it is more like training in a gym. when you stop training, your muscles get weaker, no matter how well you remember the exercises

    Gaya Ethaniel: Like the way I understood 'selflessness' and 'emptiness' now is vastly different from that of the past.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes when one stops, it goes real fast and takes longer to build up again.

    Fefonz Quan: personally, one of the biggest breakthrough i had was when i let go of being 'good' or 'just' all the time, and letting myself be accepted even when acting foolishly

    sophia Placebo: but i like to be more correct in how i interact with them

    Gaya Ethaniel nods @ Fefonz.

    Gaya Ethaniel: It can be a real stumbling block.

    Fael Illyar: yes, true freedom includes the permission to be a complete idiot.

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol

    Fefonz Quan: also, the fear that you will not be correct is a big barrier from acting and being

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I have become much more honest..not that I was a liar and cheat,,but more so in that I am happier to reveal my true self

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I have been tormented by wanting to put things right

    Mickorod Renard: and in the end have noticed that i was bordering on looking for ways to alter the past


    Fefonz Quan: 'there are three kinds of pride: one when you think you are betterthen others, two when you think you are worse, and three when you think you are exactly the same'


    The 13:00  sessions

    2009.06.22 13:00 - Detached



    Gaya Ethaniel: We had a little gathering yesterday which I found really helpful.

    Stim Morane: say more, Gaya?

    Gaya Ethaniel: I was a bit puzzled about 'going' 'goer' and 'gone to' and asked others on this point. Your choice of the word was particularly interesting, rather than 'do', 'go'.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Others present suggested time element from there which was quite helpful.

    Stim Morane: it was just an example, although one drawn from the tradition

    Fefonz Quan: Hello all!

    Fefonz Quan: somehow i feel, at least for my practice, PaB is not so distanced from what we talked aobut i the workshop

    Fefonz Quan: for example, when i practice 'appearances', the appearances of the 'self' blend into others.

    Stim Morane: yes

    Fefonz Quan: so the notion of 'i am walking' goes to 'there is walking'

    Fefonz Quan: when practicing appearances, for example, i feel like the point ov view shrinks in a way,

    Fefonz Quan: so if in daily life, the 'center' is a huma being watching the outside world, in APA, the appearances of the human being (hands, pains, etc.) are also a part of 'outside' world, while the 'inner viewer' is now some 'point' that sees all that surrounding it

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Fefonz Quan: but it makes me confused from two different directions:

    Fefonz Quan: one, is that i feel distances from myself, detachment feeling.

    Fefonz Quan: two, there is still some dimensionless 'me' watching all that

    Fefonz Quan: (and three: in all those appearances, surely i control some of them much more easily, making them somehow seperated form the others).

    Fefonz Quan: maybe when i am in a good mood, i feel less detached

    Wol Euler: or perhaps the detachment is less threatening?

    Wol Euler: (when in a good moood)

    Gaya Ethaniel: For me, when I'm doing introspection rather than observation is the heaviest times.

    Fefonz Quan: in a good mood there comes some empathy to all that arises,

    Fefonz Quan: hence no 'distanced' feeling

    Gaya Ethaniel: And in good mood tend to be more open 'outwardly'.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Let me give you an example ... let's say dancing.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Once I learn the movements, I can listen to music better ... articular so more open in that sense.

    Gaya Ethaniel: At that level, I would be watching loosely over my body, sounds etc but not controlling ...

    Gaya Ethaniel: I try to do that when meditating ...

    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Fefonz that probably applies to the directions you mentioned in the beginning.

    Gaya Ethaniel: [So just open ... all directions]

    Fefonz Quan: i see. have similar feeling when playing

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Gaya Ethaniel: When we do something we enjoy especially :)

    Fefonz Quan: enjoy, but also have enough skill not to 'control every movement'

    sophia Placebo: :) ok , distanced is the feeling btw yourself and other rthings , hmm in good mood you appreciations to things is better and distances are larger

    sophia Placebo: in bad sad mood ,everything just on your chest and aroud your neck

    aya Ethaniel: In the past, I'd sit daily if possible, doing various things like watching mind, counting breath etc. And during the most I did was pause and look for why and what to do.

    Gaya Ethaniel: These days I try to watch more during the day even if there isn't any loud pointers to make me stop.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Anyway that's what I do these days.

    2009.06.23 13:00 - karma , kama and calmer


    Mickorod Renard: I dont suppose any of you know much about kama do you?,,silly question

    Fael Illyar: karma?

    Mickorod Renard: soz yes

    Wester Kiranov: ah, found the WoK homework http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/2Explo...18th-25th_June

    Stim Morane: for your homework, investigate "going" in life, and in your meditation practice etc
    Fefonz Quan: ah, like walking?
    Stim Morane: see the myriad ways "going", with codepedent "goer" and "gone to" are involved


    Pema Pera: it is related to the home work that Wester just pointed us too

    Pema Pera: which I just read right now -- a beautiful exploration!!

    Pema Pera: did anyone try it yet?

    Mickorod Renard: I know the gist is about living out stuff in a way due to how previously conducted onesself

    Mickorod Renard: wow,,thats spooky

    Wester Kiranov: I found it quite difficult and abstract, and i wasn't the only one :)

    Wester Kiranov: but i do get glimpses

    Pema Pera: it's actually very concrete . . . it invites you to radically drop everything

    Mickorod Renard: I havnt read it yet,,and missed last EoK

    Pema Pera: it reminds me of the six words of Tilopa

    Wester Kiranov: it does point out to me how i'm often not ion the present

    Pema Pera: it's an extremely radical form of wu-wei

    Pema Pera: not-doing

    Pema Pera: not-going

    Pema Pera: but the beauty is, it does not just say "don't!"

    Pema Pera: but rather "look how you do it"

    Pema Pera: to help you not to do it

    Pema Pera: look at the "you" and the "doing" and the "done

    Fael Illyar: it does not tell you "you have to do this". It gives tools to undestand.

    Pema Pera: in this case, the "you going toward", all three words in there

    Pema Pera: yes, and invites you to use those tools

    Pema Pera: does anyone want to try it, right now?

    Wester Kiranov: at the gong?

    Pema Pera: and report what happens?

    Wester Kiranov: what i can see, is that i'm usually going instead of being

    Mickorod Renard: can u explain that more wester?

    Mickorod Renard: is the going a sort of being driven,,?

    Wester Kiranov: when i'm doing this, i'm thinking of how i'm going to say it to you all. Or when I'm having dinner, i will think of the next bite instead of the one i'm chewing.

    Pema Pera: one way to view this is to start with karma

    Pema Pera: as you mentioned, Mick

    Mickorod Renard: being accepting of direction without questioning whether its right or not?

    Pema Pera: karma seems to have a hold on us

    Mickorod Renard: ok?

    Pema Pera: in that everything we tend to do and think and say seems to be driven by the past, and in anticipation of the future

    Pema Pera: but we have the choice to step out of that, so to speak

    Pema Pera: to let go of that whole cycle of movement

    Mickorod Renard: yes?

    Pema Pera: and nothing is required to do that!

    Wester Kiranov: i am starting to see i'm in that cycle.

    Pema Pera: ONLY to see that you're voluntarily in that cycle

    Pema Pera: and to the degree you see that, you realize your'e not really in it

    Pema Pera: but if you don't it seems to continue

    Pema Pera: -- the hard part is, we want to step out

    Pema Pera: -- thereby feeding the cycle

    Pema Pera: the main point is: we are not in the cycle, we only think we are

    Pema Pera: so therefore we cannot step out

    Pema Pera: because we are already out

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I am doing alot at the moment to get back onto a better track

    Pema Pera: but as long as we think we are in, we encounter problems

    Pema Pera: how about dropping ALL THAT, Mick?

    Pema Pera: seriously

    Pema Pera: for a while at least, to try

    Mickorod Renard: yikes,,that sounds scary Pema

    Pema Pera: you may be surprised . . . .

    Pema Pera: try it for three days

    Pema Pera: how's that?

    Pema Pera: actually, it would be a great experiment to smoke it anyway, even if the cigar tells you it doesn't want to be smoked -- then pay attention to how that feels, it may show you a lot! exploration is not obedience but testing and learning

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,I have never thought about asking a cigar,,although I do talk to innanimate objects frequently

    Wol Euler: :)

    Pema Pera: :)

    Mickorod Renard: perhaps we get there wether we think about the going or not

    Wester Kiranov: perhaps there is no "there"

    Pema Pera: it's not only that "going" is impossible, but stronger than that, there is no "you" who can go and no "goal" to go towards

    Pema Pera: the "no you" is the hardest . . . .

    Mickorod Renard: can you elaborate a bit on 'no you' Pema?

    Fael Illyar: when you are "going", you change the picture to be going.

    Fael Illyar: in addition to physically going.

    Mickorod Renard: ok

    Fael Illyar: the picture is an illusion.

    Fael Illyar: hence "no you"

    Mickorod Renard: ssso,,,,,erm

    Mickorod Renard: where am I ?

    Pema Pera: I like perhaps the best way is to look at what you're trying to do and then drop all that trying . . . . that will then answer that question, Mick

    Fael Illyar: yes, don't try to understand. Understand, or don't :)

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,thanks,,I have done this before,,methinks,,in the explorations

    Pema Pera: well, you can do something: watch

    Wester Kiranov: :D (fael)

    Pema Pera: see how you're trying -- but don't try not to try

    Mickorod Renard: yes!

    Pema Pera: watch the trying

    Pema Pera: that's enough

    2009.06.24 13:00 - 

    Looking into What You Are


    sophia Placebo: can denying self lead to hostility ?

    sophia Placebo: hmm im not sure about this , still thinking of it , but i feel that if someone deny oneself - deny it some right or some identification or some care or some love - that leads to hostility being arises from within

    genesis Zhangsun: I don't get it

    genesis Zhangsun: what does denying the self mean

    genesis Zhangsun: like not eating chocolate?

    Storm Nordwind: But what is "sophia"?

    genesis Zhangsun: so what is "sophia"

    genesis Zhangsun: lol

    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    sophia Placebo: what is sophia ?

    Fefonz Quan: without getting physiological, in general what is meant is that deniying one from things he crave, tend to bring agitation and short temper

    genesis Zhangsun: in my experience I can tell when I am denying my small self and when I am denying my truer self

    genesis Zhangsun: when I deny my small self it stings for a little while

    genesis Zhangsun: when I deny my "truer" self it feel completely wrong right away

    genesis Zhangsun: and stays that way

    genesis Zhangsun: until I stop

    genesis Zhangsun: so do we eat chocolate to please the small self- repeat some past experience of eating a chocolate and feel warm and fuzzy or do we eat chocolate for this moment because it is the natural thing to do


    The 19:00  sessions

    2009.06.22 19:00 - Just a feeling


    Adelene Dawner: (believe it or not I have a PaBish topic tonight)

    Threedee Shepherd: yup

    Adelene Dawner: Basically I'm trying to figure out how /why/whatever I wound up with that 'moral instinct' or whatever you want to call it...

    Adelene Dawner: Its accuracy is really starting to get to me. It's like... am I really weird with that? Do other people have that skill and just... ignore it? Buh?

    Adelene Dawner: In fact more often than not it's 'just a feeling' that something is Wrong, and I do have to actually sit down and figure out why I feel that way. I've never failed to come up with a coherent reason, though, so it seems to be pretty accurate.

    Threedee Shepherd: an interesting discussion, even a PaB one, is to explore the concept "what do I want"

    Adelene Dawner: Good question... not one I spend a lot of time on ^.^

    Threedee Shepherd: Which in part is why I raise it.

    Adelene Dawner ponders.

    2009.06.23 19:00 - 

    Physical/non-Physical Interdependence


    Eos Amaterasu: my wife directs the ALIA Institute (Authentic Leadership in Action) which is having its annual summer week-long program right now

    Pila Mulligan: aha

    Eos Amaterasu: and I'm helping prepare a triple world cafe (RL, SL, Skype) in conjunction with that

    Pila Mulligan: how interesting

    Eliza Madrigal: I'm thoughtful tonight... spoke with my son about the topic we touched on Sunday (interconnectedness) and then its come up twice this evening

    SophiaSharon Larnia: what did he have to say about it?

    Eliza Madrigal: or maybe I'm just reading it into everything... but either way

    Eliza Madrigal: Well it was a funny conversation...started with his talking about aliens and if something doesn't have a brain...how can they breathe... silly...

    Eliza Madrigal: but then somehow we got to interrelatedness and dependence ... breathe/air

    Eliza Madrigal: then to chaos theory...

    Eliza Madrigal: was a ride, really :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles

    Eos Amaterasu: Moms should take their kids on roller coaster rides :-)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: our society of hyper-stimulus would seem to be anthema to spirual inquiry (although i don't think he thought of it that way)

    Eliza Madrigal: no, maybe not :))

    Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes things get so loud that everything is quiet

    SophiaSharon Larnia: but i suspect it may be the other way around

    Eliza Madrigal: hmm

    Eliza Madrigal: yes, why would anyone want to stop when they could be going?

    SophiaSharon Larnia: hyper evolution (im sure many would not agree)

    Eos Amaterasu: go where?

    Eliza Madrigal: well there is the question :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

    Eos Amaterasu: hyper stimulus could also be like hyperconnectedness

    Eos Amaterasu: nothing is anything without its connectedness to everything

    Eos Amaterasu: which means it's really nothing

    SophiaSharon Larnia smiles

    Eliza Madrigal: :) empty

    Yidam Nightfire: so you mean the interconnectedness of all things not just living beings?

    Eos Amaterasu: I think so: we owe our molecules to the stars

    Eliza Madrigal: that's where the conversation started, yes... our breath requires air...

    Yidam Nightfire: so you mean only the physical basis for existence is pervasive?

    Yidam Nightfire: atomic if you will

    Eos Amaterasu: No, just that we're interdependent with the physical or what we call the physical

    Eos Amaterasu: we also arise out of interdependence

    Yidam Nightfire: that what i was saying or trying to

    Yidam Nightfire: i understand the first point but not your second about arising

    Eliza Madrigal: yes, can take that idea further? What constitutes non-physical?

    Eos Amaterasu: Oh, I think when we appreciate the presence of our own appearance

    Eos Amaterasu: (to ourselves)

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah

    Yidam Nightfire: you mean the mental awarenss of our thoughts and memories then?

    Eos Amaterasu: we find that our identity(ies) arise out of many interdependencies

    Eos Amaterasu: our experience, which we can label as either mental or physical or whatever

    Eliza Madrigal: yes see that...so 'ideas' like the self..

    Yidam Nightfire: ah...the thoughts are dependent upon the physical?

    Eos Amaterasu: my thoughts get affected by food or lack of it, hormones, temperature, what I see...

    Yidam Nightfire: ok

    Yidam Nightfire: so you mean the thoughts are dependent upon mental and other sensory powers?

    Eos Amaterasu suspects we think we think our thoughts, but they just arise regardless

    Yidam Nightfire: sounds like you're implying that physical is what we impute upon the sensory input to our consciousness

    Eos Amaterasu: Something like that: Play as Being seems like a way to experience something like that...

    Yidam Nightfire: if that is true then you're saying the interdependencies are just between our sensory cognition?

    Eos Amaterasu: I like Varela's idea of autopoiesis, the organism in structural coupling with its environment

    Eliza Madrigal nods re PaB... interplay

    Eos Amaterasu: we can't go beyond our experience of our experience

    Eos Amaterasu: but we can sharpen or soften our awareness of experience

    Yidam Nightfire: you mean implying more to it than our sensory evidence suggests?

    Eos Amaterasu: and see the play of its origination, which includes the play of I and it

    Eos Amaterasu: How do you experience that, Yidam?

    Yidam Nightfire: experience what?

    Eos Amaterasu: what your were talking about re implying more than our sensory evidence suggests

    Yidam Nightfire: you were saying we sharpen or soften our awareness of experience..i wondered if you meant imputation or something else?

    Eos Amaterasu: well, the play of imputation seems to be part of it - we impute reality and qualities to things, to it, and to ourselves, to I

    Yidam Nightfire: impute to our sensory awareness of things you mean

    Eliza Madrigal: yes, maybe implying less too... or not at all

    Eos Amaterasu: or realizing how much we over-impute

    Eos Amaterasu: & relaxing

    Eliza Madrigal: I think I arrived at it through noticing synchronicities personally....

    SophiaSharon Larnia nods

    Eliza Madrigal: and then in a less selfish way

    Eliza Madrigal: but the terms and images I've learned in the last several months certainly deepen that

    Eliza Madrigal: helpful friends :)

    Eos Amaterasu: language and little phrases and exercises help

    Eliza Madrigal nods...very much!!

    Yidam Nightfire: how do you experience the non-physical?

    Pila Mulligan: is light physical?

    Eos Amaterasu: and is sensory evidence physical or non-physical?

    Eos Amaterasu wonders if Eos is physical or non-physical

    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles

    Yidam Nightfire: eos is a mental construct

    Eos Amaterasu: who said that?

    Pila Mulligan: earlier Eliza asked What constitutes non-physical?

    Pila Mulligan: what is non-physical?

    Pema Pera: a dream?

    Pema Pera: a fantasy?

    Eos Amaterasu: SL?

    Pema Pera: is a painting physical?

    Pila Mulligan: so dream light is separate from photon light?

    Pema Pera: the pigments are, but not the picture perhaps?

    Pema Pera: is the value of a dollar bill physical?

    Eliza Madrigal: value is what is mutually agreed upon?

    Eliza Madrigal: or rather, compositely

    Eos Amaterasu: interdependence

    Pema Pera: strictly speaking all our experiences are experiences that arise in our consciousness, and we label some of them as physical and others not . . . that is the everyday way of speaking

    Pila Mulligan: this saying attributed to Confucius has been part of my contemplation recently:

    Stop listening with your ears and listen with your mind. Then stop listening with your mind and listen with your primal spirit. Hearing is limited to the ear. Mind is limited to tallying things up. But the primal spirit is empty: it's simply that which awaits things.

    Eos Amaterasu: Yes Pila, what is the attentiveness that sees? that listens? that attends?

    Pema Pera: Yes, Pila, that is even better, but if we stay with everyday ways of looking, we don't need to go beyond that

    Pila Mulligan: that seems to reflect a progression from physical to non-physical

    Pema Pera: there are then two questions

    Pema Pera: a) how do we use "physical" in every day speech

    Pema Pera: b) how can we widen/deepen our experience

    Eliza Madrigal: At first we were talking about interrelatedness... so my thinking tended toward the point between experiencer and what is experienced? whether in dreams or reality?

    2009.06.24 19:00 - Labels and Categories



    Pila Mulligan: so Pema after yesterday I think it may be better to try to define metaphysical than to try to define non-physical, regarding Eliza's question (her question was 'is anything non-physical')

    Pema Pera: :-)

    Pema Pera: for me, categories are less interesting than descriptions of what we are actually dealing with

    Pila Mulligan: yes, but you know how the science-meatphysics boundary often arises in doing so

    Pema Pera: we can endlessly define new categories and discuss borderline cases, where they go

    Pila Mulligan: I think quite a few of the experiences people describe here are borderline cases

    Pila Mulligan: bordering metaphysics (as a vague term)

    Pema Pera: I would say: if it is real, let's find out what it is and what we can do with it -- if it is not real, but a speculation or fantasy, it is more a question of psychology

    Threedee Shepherd: an interesting discussion, even a PaB one, is to explore the concept "what do I want"

    Adelene Dawner: Good question... not one I spend a lot of time on ^.^

    Threedee Shepherd: Which in part is why I raise it.

    Adelene Dawner ponders.

    Pema Pera: universality is very interesting, in that science transcends traditions and cultures . . . .

    Pema Pera: so far I don't think any tradition or religion quite does that

    Pema Pera: Buddhism may come closest, but is still mired in debates between sects

    Pema Pera: THE hall mark of science is that differences are welcomed and then sorted out

    Pema Pera: science does not form schools that fight each other forever

    Pema Pera: they want to reach agreement, and typically within a few decades succeed in doing so

    Pema Pera: inconceivable to have an "Einsteinian School of Science" and a "Newtonian School of Science" -- like Theravada and Mahayana. For me that is a HUGE difference between modern science and ANY other approach, traditional or not. In fact, when I say that PaB has a scientific angle to it, I mean exactly that universalism, that we don't form/stress different sects, fortunately!!!

    Pila Mulligan: RL + SL + conference call

    Pila Mulligan: yes, thank you -- Skype

    Pema Pera: I would prefer to keep the PaB RL retreat focused as much as possible

    Pema Pera: we only have three full days, five in total with coming and going

    Pila Mulligan: yes, I was thinking just for an hour or so, for those of us waiting for it to get a feel and say hi

    Pema Pera: the big challenge will be to dive deeply into reality

    Pila Mulligan: but I appreciate your view on the need to be there

    Pema Pera: this is our first retreat, afterwards we can plan longer and more diverse events

    Pema Pera: as many as we like, in different places and with different formats

    Pema Pera: But it's a neat idea, for later, I agree, thanks!

    Pema Pera: I really want everybody to focus fully on presence

    Pema Pera: there and then with the group

    Pema Pera: at the land

    Pema Pera: in the place

    Pema Pera: no cyber stuff ! ! !

    Paradise Tennant: in the moment

    Pema Pera: ideally no email and cell phones . . . .

    Pema Pera: but that will be hard to ask :-)

    Pila Mulligan: or televisions :)

    Pila Mulligan: that alone could generate a few epiphanies

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