04-06 - Mick has another go
Table of contents
- 1. Table of contents (Mickorod Renard was the scribe for 4/5/6)
- 1.1.2. -------------------------------- *****------------------------------------
- 1.1.2.1.1.1. Pema sheds some light on seeing
- 1.1.3. ------------------------------------******-------------------------------------
- 1.1.4. ------------------------------------******-------------------------------------
- 1.1.4.1.1.1. Nasruddin
- 1.1.4.1.1.2. moving on to other issues
- 1.1.5. ------------------------------------******-------------------------------------
- 1.1.6. ------------------------------------******-------------------------------------
- 1.1.7. ------------------------------------******-------------------------------------
- 1.1.8. ------------------------------------******-------------------------------------
- 1.1.8.1.1. Thankyou X
Table of contents (Mickorod Renard was the scribe for 4/5/6)
(Mickorod Renard was the scribe for 4/5/6)
I have just cut and pasted some of the (what i thought) interesting and informative parts of the chat logs. There is so much good stuff in the chats i feel i was challenged most by having to cut out so much rather than search for good pieces. However, maybe this short version will help remind some of us about the key issues we like to get involved with.
just a quick warm up:-
If thou wilt be observant and vigilant, thou wilt see at every moment the response to thy action. Be observant if thou wouldst have a pure heart, for something is born to thee in consequence of every action. (Rumi)
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Pema sheds some light on seeing
Scathach Rhiadra: would you say the seeing is enough?
Pema Pera: yes, seeing is enough is a nice way to summarize it all, Scathach
Pema Pera: emotions often come with their counterparts, only thinly veiled . . . .
Pema Pera: anger that can lead quickly to insightfulness, cutting through, for example -- not quite a counterpart but another aspect
Pema Pera: love that can quickly led to a need for possession, and fear of loss . . . .
Pema Pera: so many forms :-) including devotion to an exploration of reality, which may be what unites us here!
Eliza Madrigal: Corvi brought up this idea one day, of appreciating without attaching 'good' or 'beauty' to anything
Pema Pera: yes, that is key!
Pema Pera: letting all that appears speak for itself, rather than dressing up it with our judgments like baby dolls, the way we usuall do
Pema Pera: concerning the opening up, through dropping and stopping, one of my favorite short summaries was given in just six words, by Tilopa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilopa#Six_Words_of_Advice
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Sophia P brings us up to speed on Islam
sophia Placebo: then prayer has a meaning of purifcation, the more you are pure the more halo feeling you would get, and the more halo feeling you got the better you see and more purness you become so i started to develop self, stop lies, stop talking behind poeple backs and so on
sophia Placebo: with time prayer becomes like an alarm, when you are angry at someone and really thinking to harm him/her, and it is a prayer time, you would think btw your self befor performing salat how pointless it is, you are standing asking for guidance and mercy but at the same time planning to harm someone so you just stop, calm, try to distracts those ideas and start praying
sophia Placebo: ps: calmness im talking about is not as strong as the one after smoking a cigar or drinking a wine or drugs or anything of that sort it is so fine feeling, but dosne vanish, it persist and you build upon it. end.
Wol Euler: I'm curious about the difference between two kinds of prayer, that you made explicit.
Wol Euler: There is the routine prayer with a fixed form or words, that is repeated regularly. This seems to be like "sweeping the path", clearing away the weeds that might grow betwen you and perceiving God
Wol Euler: when we met earlier to discuss what to say, you named these kinds of prayer as Dua'a and Salat
Wol Euler: where Salat is the regular prayer, the standard form of words, five times a day
Wol Euler: and Dua'a is "the whispered prayer" as you called it :)
Wol Euler: which is personal and self-examining
Wol Euler: could you tell us a little more about the difference?
sophia Placebo: well , it is a diffrence in faith strenghth thing as explained islamically , to make it clear , if you wish to be slim is not like thinking serously about it and is not like planning to it and is not like taking a physicall step towards it , what motivates you to take the physical steps is much stronger than the one that makes you wish
sophia Placebo: the inner has manfested on the outer
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Riddle unriddles sophiasharons riddle
Riddle Sideways: every day is a holiday and every meal a feast
Riddle Sideways: now that I am somuch older I know what I means to thank g-d that I awoke this morning
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i had an odd experience the other day that way, i was writing out checks
SophiaSharon Larnia: and decided to stop
SophiaSharon Larnia: for some reason i was looking at the zero
Riddle Sideways: ah
SophiaSharon Larnia: that i had written, and it suddenly didnt look like a zero
SophiaSharon Larnia: i looked like a racetrack, and then the 1 in front of it struck me, how something could go from zero to 10 with two character
Riddle Sideways: did the zero (which is suppose to mean nothing/nil) somehow mean a circle of all
SophiaSharon Larnia: but nothing, a zero means nothing, zilch
SophiaSharon Larnia: with the one it multiplied
SophiaSharon Larnia: to 10
SophiaSharon Larnia: that struck me as odd, that it was a symbol
Riddle Sideways: but a circle can mean all, unity, completeness
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Riddle Sideways: and ten is a long way from zero
Riddle Sideways: just when you had the 1'sand 0's as binary poof it became a ten
Arisia Vita: talking about nothing... :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yup :)
Riddle Sideways: before teh Greeksinvented zero, people had nothing but did not know it
SophiaSharon Larnia: ha
Riddle Sideways: everything had to start off being one
Riddle Sideways: much later the Romans invented a way to go negative
SophiaSharon Larnia: i love the way you think Riddle
Riddle Sideways: sorry, am in bazarre mood/mode today
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Nasruddin
(regarding sophia's (Placebo) prayer theme session)
Pila Mulligan: Sophia is doing beautifully
Pema Pera: yes, she has a way to express her own involvement gently and clearly
Pila Mulligan: and also she tells nice Nasruddin stories :)
Pema Pera: actually, concerning Nasrudin, it is great that so much is now online, e.g. : http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sufism/Nasrudin
Following Pila's suggestion to look at Nasrudin, I found a great sentence on that web site:
Pema Pera: A nice line there, at the start of the first section:
Pema Pera: "It is sometimes said that the Universe is Allah laughing himself into existence"
Eos Amaterasu: Humor seems to be a kind of appreciation of the gap
Pila Mulligan: yes,Eos, for me it is also
Pema Pera: Yes, the gap is beyond rationality, yet has its own logic. For example, in this "no-self" story of Nasrudin:
The dervish Nasrudin entered a formal reception area and seated himself at the foremost elegant chair.
The Chief of the Guard approached and said: "Sir, those places are reserved for guests of honor."
"Oh, I am more than a mere guest," replied Nasrudin confidently.
"Oh, so are you a diplomat?"
"Far more than that!"
"Really? So you are a minister, perhaps?"
"No, bigger than that too."
"Oho! So you must be the King himself, sir," said the Chief sarcastically.
"Higher than that!" "What?! Are you higher than the King?! Nobody is higher than the King in this village!"
"Now you have it. I am nobody!" said Nasrudin.
Eos Amaterasu: "If we can't have sanity, we can fake it with humor. Humor gives you the same distance from the situation, the same metaview, only laughing is easier than sanity and possibly more fun." — St. Jude
moving on to other issues
Paradise Tennant: we so often fight .. or want to change what is .. instead of accepting that what ever is ..could not be otherwise .. that is not to say you do not plan or try to improve things just focus on the now and enjoy it for all it is .. and really all you ever have :)
Pema Pera: that's a great way to explain by example what PaB is trying to suggest to do in the 9-sec: "drop what you have to see what you are" or even more accurately "to see what is" since you have to drop the "you" too . . .
Eos Amaterasu: "Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be."
Pila Mulligan: there is a nice ethical paradix in the truth of this idea we are discussing
Pema Pera: before even thinking of improving, we have to accept and face up to the situation as it is . . . .
Pema Pera: as Paradise expressed so well
Paradise Tennant: :))))
Pema Pera: and Eos/Lennon/McCarthney did too
Paradise Tennant: lol beautifully
Paradise Tennant: sometimes the very simple shifts are the biggest leaps :)
Paradise Tennant: in a way the non doing is surrender to the bigger picture .. a totality where .. you are part of an enormous connected whole with .. infinite awareness
Pema Pera: what ceases to exist is our limited picture of the world, perhaps, so that the real beauty can finally shine through, without any sense of possession or attachment, making it far more beautiful
Paradise Tennant: yes .. another way .. of saying this preceived reality is like a dream from which we will awake and look back on as just a dream :)
Eliza Madrigal: without looking back maybe :)
Pema Pera: or already right now we can begin to experience it as the dream that it is, in some ways
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room for God , Allah, buddha, Being and all
Quote: What you are looking for is what is looking.
- St. Francis of Assisi
Adams Rubble: how I can take my understanding of God as a resource and apply it to Being as a resource
Adams Rubble: I was going to ask what is the difference?
Adams Rubble: well, I felt that God had a plan for me
Adams Rubble: that He would guide me
Adams Rubble: the best part was that I felt at peace
Adams Rubble: that I did not have to depend on my own weaknesses
Adams Rubble: that I could act despite them
Adams Rubble: be more than I could just by depending on my own poor skills
Adams Rubble: transcend my weaknesses
Pema Pera: all of that can carry over easily to viewing Being as a resource, even though the language would be somewhat different
SophiaSharon Larnia: I feel that these weaknesses are our vulnerablities, not that they make us weak, they make us individual, I feel that we are all given everything we need as a part of being
Adams Rubble: It is when things are difficult we need to see past our identities
Pema Pera: yes, that feels more like going to the core, Adams!
Pema Pera: in Christianity "we are all God's children" -- a very powerful reminder that we are not just some useless critter somewhere in a corner of the Universe . . . .
Pema Pera: Sophia, does Islam have a similar perspective, of us as God's children?
sophia Placebo: no
sophia Placebo: islam consider humas as creatures
sophia Placebo: most beloved but creatures
sophia Placebo: you feel weak and poor in front of God cause he who gave you all the powers you have , to thank him for these is to show it to use it and not to abuse it or underestimate it
Wol Euler: where does "unworthy" come from, Adams?
Pema Pera: how about this angle: if a child forgets being a child of his parents, he may see himself as utterly unworthy, when seeing his faults -- but when remembering to be a child, that then changes everything -- does that help?
Eliza Madrigal is still contemplating Adams typo of earlier "being worthy of the sight of God"
Eliza Madrigal: Isn't that what it is... beyond less/more...beyond trying?
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Quote:- If one morning I walked on top of the water across the Potomac River, the headline that afternoon would read: "President Can't Swim." ~Lyndon B. Johnson
Spike them journalists
Eliza Madrigal: I payed attention to Twitter during the election, and recently for Iran coverage a bit...not more than that though.
Eliza Madrigal: I heard about SL through Twitter during the election :)
Tarmel Udimo: well its certainly made us more global, and information is shared but I wonder whether the herd mentality has changed?
Mickorod Renard: I dont think that will ever change
arabella Ella: sources of authority are in the process of changing i think
Tarmel Udimo: has it broadened our persepctives?
Mickorod Renard: how do u mean Ara?
arabella Ella: both broadened and narrowed our perspectives
arabella Ella: well today we take journalists to be super truth heros for example
Tarmel Udimo: nods
arabella Ella: spiked - creative industries, creative clusters within one geo area
arabella Ella: well I think that saying simply that the world is flat - all interconnected - although correct is a bit too much of a simplification
arabella Ella: and the same applies to Florida's The World is Spiked
Maxine Walden: how so, Ara?
arabella Ella: so I think we should look at things as overlapping and criss crossing not simply as dichotomies that never meet
Eliza Madrigal: We have greater access...but also a flood of information to filter...so the effect can be the same in that some will actually narrow their choices...news channels which tell one side, etc
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Maxine Walden: interesting, Eliza. Our human limits often seem to create a narrowing...
arabella Ella: learning not to be overwhelmed is ... sounds like ... one of the new skills to be learnt for the 21 st century
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Quote:-
Our task must be to free ourselves . . .
by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures
and the whole of nature and its beauty.
Albert Einstein
Compassion is free, but spend it wisely
Stim Morane: We're talking about "compassion"
Stim Morane: I think this is a fragment of a longer discussion. For now, I could just say that real compassion is not an emotion or any other product of the ordinary mind.
Stim Morane: it is inseparable from a kind of "seeing" that appreciates other beings' difficulties, but ALSO sees that in some particularly important sense, the beings are still OK.
Stim Morane: if you don't see the latter, the former isn't enough to qualify as com
Stim Morane: The reason is that you can't help other beings in the truest sense, i.e. to wake up, if you don't see that they already have an enlightened nature. 'Help' means 'helping them appreciate what they are'
Stim Morane: otherwise you just end up putting bandaids on peoples' problems
Stim Morane: It's like the old adage that it's better to teach people how to feed themselves, than to give them a little food.
Stim Morane: Here the point is that if you help them appreciate why they are OK, they can hold that in the midst of all life's ups and downs. Otherwise, you can perk them up a bit on one occasion, but then they get distressed again in another situation.
Stim Morane: So you can show them the latter and how to hold it.
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Thankyou X
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