28-31 - And the Fullness Rushed In

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    Snapshot_046.pngGuilt & Condemnation.
    Judgement & Acceptance.
    An Eclipse. Weddings.


    Mary & Martha. Dancing.
    Gestures & Rituals.

    Love, Clarity, Infinity.


    Fael  Illyar: I mean... there's knowing, then there's knowing about knowing ..
                     there's no need to know about knowing :)
    Riddle Sideways: knowing. has a period, end of sentence on it.
                             knowing about knowing is almost final too
                             between is something else
                             maybe call it life

    Pera: however, the assumptions that really hold us back are typicall quite big, staring us in the face, not deep into fractal land . . . ./ like assuming there is a self
    Pema Pera: or that things are really substantial in ways that are unwarranted
    Fael Illyar: is that really holding back?
    Pema Pera: or simply mistaking incompetence for ill will :-)
    Pema Pera: holding back in the sense of blocking new avenues to explore
    Pema Pera: those are often not very subtle



    "Sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
    Lewis Carroll

    Wol Euler: I was at a RL weddng of SL folk, it was quite wonderful
    Mickorod Renard: was it like you imagined?
    Wol Euler: different in many ways
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    Wol Euler: the people were even more wonderful in RL than I knew them to be here.
    Mickorod Renard: thats so nice Wol
    Shyama Sheryffe: did they meet in sl ?
    Wol Euler: yes, indeed thtey did :)
    Mickorod Renard: dangerous place SL..grin
    Wol Euler: made thje jump to RL about a year ago, moved in together six months back
    Wol Euler: quite a wonderful story. They are just absurdly happy
    Wol Euler: the wedding was held in their back garden. After the vows, we had margaritas, fireworks and waterpistol fights
    Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,incredible
    Shyama Sheryffe: sounds wonderful :)
    Wol Euler: I'm still floating on the happiness of it, nearly two weeks later
    Shyama Sheryffe: so its kind of meeting on soul level ?
    Qt Core: it is just more hires drawn with better 3d look and feel ;-)
    Wol Euler: very much so, Shyama. You meet souls here in SL, unencumbered by bodies

    -Qt Core: if you want to check for past, present and future eclipses:

    Qt Core: even knowing what is happening it is terryfying
    Wol Euler: yes
    Mickorod Renard: for me it wasnt so much the darkness,,but the lack of clarity if u know what i mean
    Bertram Jacobus: i don'´t feel terrified - more impressed ...

    "The weak can never forgive; forgiveness is the attribute of the strong." Mahatma Ghandi

    Fefonz Quan: for me acceptance should preceed forgiveness
    Fael Illyar: people doing wrong on purpose do so because they do not see an alternative.
    Fael Illyar: not a real one, anyway.
    Mickorod Renard: I would like to believe that Fael,but I dont /grin
    Fefonz Quan: or because their map of right and wrong got upside down
    Mickorod Renard: yes, some are tempted, and i am not innocent of temptation either
    Qt Core: or for them is just not wrong

    Bertram Jacobus: no fael. that's different to me : i can forgive and know it will happen again

    Fefonz Quan:btw, Mick, Jewish have a special day only for forgiveness - and this is the holiest day of the year

    Fefonz Quan: there is one interesting buddhist meditatin i found helpful
    Fefonz Quan: where you remind yourself continuesly that the people that made you angry/upset also want to be happy and not to suffer, and you wish that for them
    Wol Euler: that sounds like hard work, to be honest.
    Fefonz Quan: It is Wol, in fact this is the four stage of that meditation (called Meta)
    Fefonz Quan: you start with yourself, then beloved ones, then stranger, and finally enemies


    Pema Pera: and yes, Hana, I agree: meditation has no purpose . . . but to unpack that sentence is an interesting challenge then
    Eos Amaterasu: Suzuki Roshi said something like, we don't practice for the sake of enlightenment; rather, because we are enlightened, we practice
    Hana Furlough: right i think that's dogen's perspective as well
    Pema Pera: As for Being playing and always being there, that may be almost too much already. Being IS, anything more may be extraneous
    Hana Furlough: but we lose touch with that in our usual way of thinking
    Pema Pera: yes, we practice as a gesture, to celebrate, showing our appreciation

    Pema Pera: yes, Jeena, and the purest form of love may be to just express love without expecting anything in return, rare as that may be . . . .

    Eos Amaterasu: If by infinity you mean the "to see infinity in a grain of sand", I'm with you
    Eos Amaterasu: Our sense perceptions allow us access to "infinity" (same as Being?)
    Eos Amaterasu: I mean that we can find infinity in this pool, in the sound of the bird, etc
    Eos Amaterasu: It's not separate from manifestation

    Tarmel quoted:

    If we are not totally blind,
    what we are seeking is already here.
    This is it!

    - Alan Watts


    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes balance, I was trying to empty everything, to drop it, and, too long to state here, was having trouble. So, I gave that up, and the fullness rushed in :)
    Avastu Maruti: we may say everything is Being - all that appears is only Being

    stevenaia Michinaga: I work with an highly intuitive person who sees most things opposite of me,but it is usually an illusion as we are looking at the very same thing, like a door, only from different sides, it is always very amusing, but gives you perspective
    stevenaia Michinaga: emptyness being completeness
    stevenaia Michinaga: and fullness being completeness :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: does it go beyond that
    stevenaia Michinaga: well when opposites are the same, what does it need to go beyond
    stevenaia Michinaga: it becomes simplicity
    stevenaia Michinaga: the irony is the effort it takes to find simplicity
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs

    Avastu Maruti: Vedanta calls it Brahman - another word for Oneness or Life or God or whatever
    Avastu Maruti: brahman is defined as satchitananda
    Avastu Maruti: sat is Being
    Avastu Maruti: chit is knowing
    Avastu Maruti: ananda is fullness
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh my
    Avastu Maruti: being IS knowing
    Avastu Maruti: you are present and aware
    Avastu Maruti: same thing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was thinking how what you were searching for at the beginning of this conversation you found when you stopped searching
    Avastu Maruti: when seeking dissolves, ananda is revealed


    Yakuzza Lethecus feels so surrounded my dutch peoply :)
    Nymf Hathaway: :))))
    Pema Pera: :--)
    Nymf Hathaway: always lovely to see people happy :)

    Pema Pera: Actually, there is a book by a Scotsman who lived in Holland a hundred years ago
    Pema Pera: who wrote about such Dutch English topics
    Pema Pera: like when he sent a little present to his aunt in Scotland
    Pema Pera: and the Dutch post office clerk wrote underneath the name of hi aunt:
    Pema Pera: monster zonder waarde
    Wester Kiranov: there is a blog about "dunglish"/ :D
    Pema Pera: monster being "sample"
    Pema Pera: not worth paying import tax about
    Wester Kiranov: i wonder if those two words monster are related, and if so, how
    Pema Pera: hmmm, good question
    Wester Kiranov: no, they're not
    Pema Pera: how did you figure that out?
    Wester Kiranov: one comes from monstre, the other from monstrum

    Pema Pera: the people in the coffeeshop where I am sitting are wondering why this foreigner is laughing suddenly out loud . . . . in this so quiet space . . . .


    Adams Rubble: A week or so ago we talked about the Story of Christ visiting the house of Mary and Martha / and I have been mostly Martha lately
    Adams Rubble: and I have been a bit envious of those who are Mary knowing that i was Mary not so long ago / and pema wrote me a message this morning in which he reminded me that we are all both Mary and martha / and included an image of mary sitting there smiling
    Adams Rubble: and the thought of being Martha and seeing Mary there smiling and knowing we are both Mary and Martha has made me feel smiley
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: That's beautiful, yes both

    Adams Rubble:if we can always remember Mary smiling we will be OK

    Adams Rubble: There is passage in one of the apocraphal gospels where Christ dances with the Apostles
    Eliza Madrigal: A lovely image Adams! I didn't know that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! the round dance!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes I love that so, it started me on this present path of exploration Adams
    Adams Rubble: what a wonderful place to start :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: The Round Dance of the Cross

    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok, the human being as what jesus exemplified
    SophiaSharon Larnia: as to what we are to become / what we are
    SophiaSharon Larnia: erase the mythology and what the church has said about the original sayings, through the centuries / as i think jesus was an avatar

    I get by with help from my friends... 

    Fael Illyar: believing is assuming you know.
    Fael Illyar: doubting is assuming you know you don't.
    Fael Illyar: if you do these both at once :)
    Fael Illyar: it's no wonder that you'd get confused.


    Gaya Ethaniel: How are things and your practice Solo?
    Solobill Laville: Good :) about an hour a day, prostrations, chanting, sitting
    Eliza Madrigal: Does the routine come naturally to you Solo?
    Solobill Laville: Now it does, not a first though
    Solobill Laville: TIme of day has a big role...I was an evening guy
    Solobill Laville: after the kids went to bed
    Solobill Laville: but now I am a morning guy...much better I think :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the 'idea' of a set routine, and sometimes I fall into a pattern, but mostly I change day to day, week to week
    Solobill Laville: Right, I think that is good too, go with what your schedule and mind/body dictate

    Stumbling into Gaya's childhood...

    Gaya Ethaniel: Actually ... my grandma used to do that each morning now that I think about it ... though rather too energetically for us children watching.
    arabella Ella: bowing?
    Gaya Ethaniel: She had this beautiful painting of a bodhisattva in her room on the wall.
    arabella Ella: lovely
    Solobill Laville: :) Kwanseom Bosal? / Kwan Seom Bosal is Kwanzeon in Japanese, Avalokitesvara in Sanscrit / Solobill Laville: One of the biggie Bodhisattvas

    Gaya Ethaniel: The style varies between countries but it's similar to what many Buddhist pilgrims do .. hands in the front bow then kneel down etc. /
    Gaya Ethaniel: I liked my grandfather's funeral in a temple. And there are many fond memories :) Like friendly local monks etc. /
    arabella Ella: so Gaya excuse my ignorance ... what sort of Buddhism were you brought up in?
    Gaya Ethaniel: uh ... to be honest, I didn't know what sort at the time. I think it's Pure Land largely and with Seon thrown in here and there. Rather than a category, I can just describe as regular attending at temples ... lots of prostrations, sutra reading/chanting ... and so on.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Going to see famous monks and visiting sacred sites (a sculpture on very high mountains etc.) were regarded highly and many of my family members did that. /Like doing 10,000 prostrations things like that ... I thought it was a bit too extreme at the time
    Gaya Ethaniel: But Father became an evangelical Christian later in his life [he was somewhat agnostic before] so I guess it wasn't strictly Buddhist upbringing.
    Gaya Ethaniel: But I have to say though until recently I was somewhat against Buddhism as I knew back then, a lot to do with ignorance not knowing meanings behind the rituals.

    Pema quoted:

    We don't know what will happen in any moment.
    So, in each moment, if you fail to express
    yourself fully you will regret it later.
    Because you expect some other time -- a future,
    a time in which you are more real -- you fail
    to express yourself fully right now.
    And of course in this way you will be
    misunderstood by your friends, even by yourself.
    So you should always express yourself fully

    -Shunryuu Suzuki

    A good framework for the following conversation:

    arabella Ella: well work is important but two dear friends passed away this week both younger than me
    arabella Ella: and it is such a shock / and it brings to mind the fragility of life / and how precious it is
    Adams Rubble: yes, very sad
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, we're not guaranteed one moment to the next
    arabella Ella: yes especially one of them who left four very young kids
    arabella Ella: the other was single
    Eliza Madrigal: So hard
    arabella Ella: but the one with four kids left suddenly ... massive heart attack, no warning
    arabella Ella: and he had just been planning to cut down on his work
    Mickorod Renard: when i was younger i lost many of my friends,,and although sad it was easily accepted,,as part of being dangerous..now I am older it does seem so diferent
    Eliza Madrigal: It does make one pause, and ask themselves questions
    Adams Rubble: we need to live every day / one at a time
    arabella Ella: yes it is always a jolt which instigates reflection

    Mickorod Renard: everyone thinks I am macarbre when i say that i see death as a big adventure
    Adams Rubble: we worry about death when we live in the future
    arabella Ella: mick?
    Eliza Madrigal does not think that Mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes, the worry about death is part of that going thing


    Adams Rubble: We are looking for the times we could just be Mary 
                            looking at a flower 
                            watching the wind blow the leaves on the trees 
                            just listening :)

    Eliza Madrigal: What are you thinking about tday?
    sophia Placebo:playing with ego
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow. How so?
    sophia Placebo: well old children games
    sophia Placebo: say if i tell you something then you tell me how you see it
    sophia Placebo: ok , suppose you are sitting
    sophia Placebo: where were you sitting and how ?
    sophia Placebo: there is a choko cake infront of you
    sophia Placebo: what do you see yourself doing

    sophia Placebo: this was an ego practice , do you satesfy yourself or not
    Adams Rubble afraid to hear what Sophia has to say :)
    sophia Placebo:how much you relay on your ego in your decision
    SophiaSharon Larnia: depends of what the cake is for i guess
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, diving into the cake and eating every bit can be appreciation
    Fael Illyar: I don't keep a cake in front of me when sitting unless it is for me :P


    Fael Illyar: guilt is based on the mistaken notion that there's a self who bears the whole responsibility for something that happened. / and that this self shouldn't be the way it s
    Eliza Madrigal: oh wow
    sophia Placebo: guilt is the awarness of your mistake and its impact on others for me
    sophia Placebo: you wont feel much guilt if no harm done
    SophiaSharon Larnia: agress with sophia
    Adams Rubble: yes, guilt is a process on which we weigh our actions
    Eliza Madrigal: We are not completely aware though....even intending no harm, harm comes about in the normal scheme of things
    Adams Rubble does not feel guilty about the cake :)
    Fael Illyar: it's also based on the also mistaken notion that things could have gone differently.
    sophia Placebo: too much guilt though is seeing self as life engine, all is due me and my stupid acts

    Eliza Madrigal: Guilt can be a friend. Hard to see condemnation as a friend
    Fael Illyar: not sure of the point to have two words when the only difference is the power :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Condemnation doesn't lead anywhere I think
    Eliza Madrigal: there is no 'out' or way through it
    Eliza Madrigal: no love
    Eliza Madrigal: or that's how I think of it
    Fael Illyar: would you mean guilt as simply a wish to be able to do ... better, whatever that means.
    Eliza Madrigal: I think so, that guilt 'can be' a doorway to a positive kind of sensitivity
    Eliza Madrigal: Not that it always is
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... I can't quite fit that together with my previous idea of guilt at all :)


    Adelene Dawner: I'm good - I just found the blog of a woman who was daignosed with Asperger's at age 50, and enjoying reading that. :)
    Wol Euler: wow
    Adelene Dawner: http://www.aspergerjourneys.com/
    Nymf Hathaway: interesting

    Adelene Dawner: Well, like most of us who figured it out as adults, she'd always known she was different, and recognized herself in the description.
    Adelene Dawner: I'm actually interested in reading it as the perspective of someone who was raised as normal - a huge amount of how weird I am is that I was told, over and over and over again growing up, that I wasn't normal and shouldn't expect to be.
    Wol Euler: that is interesting.
    Wol Euler: and something of a self-fullfilling prophecy
    Adelene Dawner: I'm not complaining, though :)
    Adelene Dawner:From what I have read, there's a definite upside to knowing from the get-go that 'normal' isn't going to work for you. It's the stigma that comes with that that's the problem.
    Adelene Dawner: But acting weird without a diagnosis can be very stigmatizing, too.
    Wol Euler nods

    Bertram Jacobus: i think, to judge is not wrong, but to condemn can be problematic ...

    Wol Euler: not judging doesn't mean becoming blind
    Wol Euler: it does mean not becoming angry, or arrogant and proud
    Fefonz Quan: yes, there is some emotional layer put upon the evaluation that starts the whole mess
    Wol Euler: right

    Fefonz Quan: i would also say emotional value, not only scientific value
    Adelene Dawner: Regarding ideals: Most people don't judge others by ideal standards, but they do judge themselves by ideal standards in one way or another.
    Wol Euler: yes, the emotional weight is the key.
    Adams Rubble: It is problemmatic when we judge a person and not behavior
    Shyama Sheryffe: behaviour we eavluate, person we judge ?

    Wol Euler: well, we could bring it back to PaB by saying that observation or evaluation try to see what is
    Wol Euler: by dropping judgement

    Thinking of Storm amidst his blissful transitions...

    Wol Euler: it was built by Storm Nordwind, a fine SL builder
    Wol Euler: and one of us, when he isn't incommunicado in a RL retreat for two weeks
    Nyx SpiritWeaver chuckles
    Nyx SpiritWeaver: i am going to asume that rl is real life?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, those RL activities just take so much of your useful time!
    Wol Euler: a wonderful story, he met the love of his life in SL, and is moving to the US to marry her next month.
    Nyx SpiritWeaver: oh that is wonderful

    Fefonz Quan: i was thinking about those big changes in the context of what we do here
    Wol Euler: mmmm?
    Fefonz Quan: leaving big chunks of identityies in places where we spent a lot of timee
    Fefonz Quan: it is not easy many times
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: though it goes both ways, I find I take some of where I was to add to my identity
    Fefonz Quan nods too. Yet memories of a place and being there is very different
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Fefonz Quan: and the process of letting it go, is interesting and challenging
    Fefonz Quan: good practice of impermanence and attachment
    Wol Euler: you let go, but you can also keep.
    Wol Euler: you have the memories and the change in yourself from what happened that year, but you let go of the sadness (a judgement!)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, exactly. Or maybe, when sadness arise, letting it be till it dissolves itself without fighting it.
    Wol Euler nods
    Fefonz Quan: in a funny time-circular way, i find myself already missing the places where i still am!
    Adelene Dawner: I get that. I remember when I moved from NJ - a few days before I left, I realized (because there were some changes in the schedule) that I wasn't going to be going to the grocery store I used there, perhaps ever again, even though I'd planned to... it was sad, but kind of funny, too.
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Wol Euler nods and grins at fef
    Fefonz Quan: Yet i am also pleased with such feelings, because they are signs for me that i had good and meaningful times here

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

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