04-06 - Mick nets a whole lot of APAPB

          

    I have found it impossible to dispense with the chat logs as a whole as the

    content was so interesting. Some I have retained in great depth because

    not only are they wonderful but also because they hold the key to what PaB

    is about. I have been careful to edit as much as posible to cut out the

    bulkiness and yet at the same time leave the message intact. There is

    much to grasp in reading over again and again about APAPB ,in my opinion

    like many things it must eventually sink in.

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                                     a new Same Ol thing

    The Guardian for this meeting was Riddle Sideways. The comments are by Riddle Sideways.

    As I add some comments, I know that I am not in the same moods as I was..  Several times, I have virtually commented this session.. Now that I really hit the keys, there is a different feeling that is not as deep.Some dreams, some thoughts, some waking.


    Deja Vu has become a smaller meaning then we need.
    Same dreans, same thoughts, same waking.
    Same as it always was, but different

    Riddle Sideways: One of my favs is walking thru completly dark house
    Riddle Sideways: using senses other then eye sight
    Riddle Sideways: in the quiet
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, but i only do that in order to not wake everyone up while i cook my first coffee when everyone is sleeping :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Actually our own experiences act like filters when we listen to music or look at arts.
    Riddle Sideways: or make coffee
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Riddle Sideways: or appreciate this chat
    Gaya Ethaniel: I like Lebanese style best :)
    Riddle Sideways: the sun arose once more this morning
    Riddle Sideways: like it always does
    Riddle Sideways: and we were different for it
    Riddle Sideways: David Bynes "Same as it ever was, same as it ever was..."

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         no prizes for guessing who brought the flowers

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                                        SL unwrapped again


     The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i always think about the issue how much time i ,,waste" here, but i think most of the contacts are better then gaming contacts and the people especially on pab are talking about sensefull stuff and especially true thoughts at least i have that feeling so it´s virtual but real communication
    Pila Mulligan: Pema deserves a lot of credit for creating these things we enjoy
    Maxine Walden: indeed, Pila
    Wol Euler: yes, definitely.
    Mickorod Renard: he does, and if I may say so, so do you all too
    Wol Euler speaks into the camera. "Thank you, Pema! We are very grateful"
    Pila Mulligan: amen, Wol
    Maxine Walden: waves to Pema
    Pila Mulligan: (don't let it go t your head, Pema:)
    Maxine Walden: pretty amazing isn't it, Mick, how he has so much energy and focus
    Pila Mulligan: this is an example of education without hierarchy
    Mickorod Renard: and in some way that quality inspires me to make an effort


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                                        A Little Turbulent

    Quote:' We work on ourselves in order to help others, but also we help others in order to work on ourselves.': Pema Chodron

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu.

    Eliza Madrigal: I find myself listening to Pema Chodron a lot these days. She talks much about the idea of our 'soft spot'
    Eliza Madrigal: She's wonderful... truly moving, and so funny
    Eliza Madrigal: when we empathize we are open
    Eliza Madrigal: Did I ever tell you my sleeping buddha story?
    Eos Amaterasu: No
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... so in my house I have a piano toward the front door...
    Eliza Madrigal: On top of it are pictures and such
    Eliza Madrigal: And I was given a beautiful sleeping buddha statue
    Eliza Madrigal: It seemed like it should go in the bedroom... after all, he is sleeping...
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Eliza Madrigal: So I made a place for him in the bedroom...
    Eliza Madrigal: but just did not fit there... kept moving things.
    Eliza Madrigal: Finally, I realized that he wanted to be on the piano, because
    Eliza Madrigal: "When I think on the notes between the spaces, the music begins to play itself"

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                     Advocates of Awareness and Compassion

          

    Quote:' When you begin to touch your heart or let your heart be touched, you

    begin to discover that it's bottomless, that it doesn't have any resolution,

    that this heart is huge, vast, and limitless. You begin to discover how much

    warmth and gentleness is there, as well as how much space'.:Pema

    Chodron

    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal..
     Sophia asks "What is a Bodhisattva?"

    Eliza Madrigal is encountering Gaya as non-bunny for the first time :)
    Fael Illyar smiles 'You look great, Gaya.'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how nice to see you Gaya :) I have never seen you in a human avi
    Gaya Ethaniel: It shows how many more lovely friends I've met over last few months :)
    Fael Illyar smiles 'I'm happy for that.'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I've been thinking about what a bodhisattva is, wondering if anyone has any thoughts about it.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but what does that mean, to be a way show-er, and to where does this one point to
    Fael Illyar: the pathless path :)
    sophia Placebo: like to be a leader or a guider?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes, that resonates with me also
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think compassion is key in understanding bodhisattvas, not just Avalokiteshvara.

    In Buddhism, Avalokiteshvara is the embodiment of compassion...

    Eliza Madrigal: In all traditions there are stories of people who had reached a place where they were empty of suffering (?) and there is a determination to 'stay' to help others, and yes...compassion
    Gaya Ethaniel: In the doctrines, they are described as being those obtained nirvana and are beyond birth/death.
    Gaya Ethaniel: But chose to be born again to help.
    Eliza Madrigal: It is helpful to look at the Bodhisattva vows
    Gaya Ethaniel: Like prayers in Christian practices, metta meditation ... volunteering and so on, will shift something within, re: self in Buddhist context.
    Eliza Madrigal: You begin to take vows that are impossible, really, from an unenlightened perspective
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it's like keeping in the seeming impossible levels of ethics discussed by Kant.
    Eliza Madrigal: Vows of great compassion
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the barriers seem insurmountable
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, mountains
    Eliza Madrigal: For me this opens a little of what Jesus and other great masters say also, about moving mountains... impossible!
    Gaya Ethaniel: That doesn't stop one trying :)
    sophia Placebo: we would need to melt it
    Gaya Ethaniel: Once learnt ... then we can really experience it ... we can really be compassionate while praying.
    sophia Placebo: then moving it wouldnt be hardEliza Madrigal: I found a snippet from a talk Isen Enso gave in SL, and I like the way he talks about the vows:
     
    [18:05] Isen Enzo: 'the Bodhisattva vows'
    Isen Enzo: they go- 'beings are numberless, I vow to free them' ; 'delusions are inexhaustable, I vow to end them' ; 'Reality is boundless, I vow to to percieve it' ; ' the awakened way is unsurpassable, I vow to embody it.'

     [18:07] Isen Enzo: a bodhisattva, as you know is a sort of advocate of awareness/enlighhtenment

    Eliza Madrigal: Remember the poem Pema posted a few months ago? A True Master?
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, the poem:


    As Rinzai said:

    ``In this five-foot lump of red flesh there is a true person of no rank always

    coming in and going out; if you have not seen it yet, see it now!'' . . . It is

    always coming and going in and out of our body.

    When it goes out, if we see a flower, we become a flower; when we hear a

    beautiful bird's song, we become a singing bird. When we go within, we are

    hungry, sleepy, hot, and cold. There is a true master like that within each of

    us.

    We see a river and we are flowing without pause. We see the sky full of

    stars and we become it all. We dive into the suffering of all people, into

    society's miseries. Within this is a true person of no rank.

    Shodo Harada (1940 -- )

    Fael Illyar: that's why being judgemental blinds us.
    Eliza Madrigal: Stim said once "We are blind to our blindness"
    Fael Illyar: the only blindness that sticks is one that we are blind to :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes!!
    Eliza Madrigal: When we see it, seeing is enough

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    This was a real heavy session and because it was long I cut it back in a

    huge way. To me it captures the way we can all join in together on diferent

    topics just for the sake of interaction with each other.

                           Symmetry and other games

    Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session, which ended up

    nicely poised between earnest and silliness.

    Quote: My work always tried to unite the truth with the beautiful, but when I

    had to choose one or the other, I usually chose the beautiful.,,,Hermann

    Klaus Hugo Weyl

    Shyama notices that we are sitting symmetrically, mirrored about the fountain.

    Shyama Sheryffe: we r sitting very nicely in symmetry :)
    Qt Core: some of us are obsessed with it ;-)
    Hana Furlough: have you ever read the book symmetry?
    Shyama Sheryffe: symmetry is nice and balancing
    Mickorod and Arabella choose seats across the fountain, restoring the group's symmetry.
    Shyama Sheryffe: perfect symmetry now
    Hana Furlough: well it's by a mathematician at oxford
    Mickorod Renard: do u know his name?
    Hana Furlough: it's by marcus du satoy
    http://www.amazon.com/Symmetry-Journ...9504517&sr=1-1

     Hana Furlough: i think math is a great tool for appreciation
    Hana Furlough: yeah and the funny thing is, he is so good at appreciation in the book!
    Hana Furlough: i found it odd that he wasn't so open to the idea of god
    Mickorod Renard: sounds like we should invite him to PaB
    Hana Furlough: we totally should~
    arabella Ella: appreciation of what though Hana?
    Hana Furlough: of math, symmetry, possibilities

    Leonardo da Vinci's Vitruvian Man (ca. 1487) is often used as a representation of symmetry in the human body and, by extension, the natural universe.;wikapedia

     
    Symmetry, circularity and karma

    Shyama Sheryffe: hm.. could symmetry hav something to do with karma doctrine ?
    Hana Furlough: what do you mean shy?
    Shyama Sheryffe: well, if i throw a ball to the wall
    Shyama Sheryffe: it bounces back symmetrcally to me
    Shyama Sheryffe: perhaps we need both..asymmetry in symmetry

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                                         Maxine in the Balkin's

     
    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are

    by stevenaia Michinaga 'including very useful ways to work with the APAPB sentence'

    Later Maxine tells the story of her recent trip to the Balkins's and her meeting Lech Walensa
     
    For example, here is one way to work with the APAPB sentence:

    Appreciation:
    -- note that the sentence start with appreciation, as opposed to judgment.
      we tend to judge all and everything around us, habitually, without even
      noticing we are doing that.

    Appearance:
    -- how to avoid this ingrained labeling and valuing of everything?  By
      simply being with all that appears, as it appears, rather than what
      you think these appearances all mean, for you.

    Presence:
    -- be in the presence of what appears, don't lose yourself in thoughts
      about what has happened or what may come, but rather really just
      "be with" all appearances.

    Presentation:
    -- view all that appears, moment by moment, as a gift from the Universe,
      from Being, or depending on your background and orientation you could
      view it as a gift from God, or the way the Tao presents itself, of how
      the clarity of emptiness manifests; many options!

    Being:
    -- this is the most neutral word I can think of to point to the appearing
      of what appears in the most open and liberating way, stripped of all
      the many additions we are so fond of using to hide the innate clarity
      of Being, by draping it in many layers of judgment, hope, fear, etc.

    Pema Pera: "there it is" may be the supreme summary of PaB !
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods, and the completeness in that makes for a lovely calm place to see thing
    Pema Pera: If you don't mind, could you perhaps just give us one Baltic vignette? :-)
    Maxine Walden: One Baltic tidbit involved my readings and preparation, read a lot as this was a university trip, history over the centuries but especially the last chaotic, war torn century...expected
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Sophia
    Maxine Walden: to see the aftermath of Soviet grip and agonies of recent revelations from WW II, and to all of our surprise, all the countries, including Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania (previous Soviet states) were bright, optimistic and Western...very stunning
    Maxine Walden: The learning for me was how history can establish such 'prejudice', or expectation, just as other fantasies, etc. Very interesting to me/us

    Lech Walesa ;(born 29 Sept 1943) is a Polish politition and former trade union and human rights activist. He co-founded Solidarity, the Soviet bloc's first ndependent trade union, won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1983, and served as President of Poland from 1990 to 1995.


    Maxine Walden: We also had Lech Walensa on the boat, with us, a surprise for us all
    Pema Pera: the problem with any kind of idealism is that it starts not with what is, in the present, but with what could be, in the future . .. .
    Pema Pera: hence not grounded

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    I found no way to cut back this session as I believe it contains fundemental understanding about a focus point at PaB.

                                  APAPB "We LOVE Homework"

    The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

    I sat alone for about ten minutes and then noticed that Pema was there.

    Adams Rubble: Pema has given me a homework assignment :)
    Adams Rubble: That I watch my thoughts and report to him very day
    genesis Zhangsun: "we LOVE homework"
    Pema Pera: so the idea was to just watch how thoughts appear an disappear
    Adams Rubble: A few interesting things have happened in the first two days
    Pema Pera: without judging them or following them and also without trying to suppress them in any way
    Adams Rubble: It is hard for not to judge and to not hold on the the thoughts
    Adams Rubble: Well the first thing of interest was on the train
    Adams Rubble: not necessarily thought watching but APAPB
    Adams Rubble: It occured to me how much we decide about people based on their appearance
    Adams Rubble: and how what was going on in my head was unrelated to that
    Adams Rubble: then I realized my appearance was a presentation of Being
    Adams Rubble: It may have been the first time that struck me
    Adams Rubble: and how my other manifestrations also are a presentation fo being
    Adams Rubble: such different appearances
    Adams Rubble: same Being
    Adams Rubble: The next event was last night
    Adams Rubble: i was with a friend who asked me how I was
    Adams Rubble: assuming I had had a pretty successful day
    Adams Rubble: and I immediately latched on to the fact that my big project was not moving that well
    Adams Rubble: and then just like that...poof
    Adams Rubble: I realized I could let that thought go
    Pema Pera: wonderful, Adams!
    Adams Rubble: It was a useful use of the homework assignment :)
    Adams Rubble takes a breath
    genesis Zhangsun: thankyou for sharing
    Pema Pera: it's so easy to let go, once we realize we can just let go -- but we tend to forget that we even can do that in the middle of arguments etc
    genesis Zhangsun: when you let the thought go how did you experience the rest of your conversation with your friend?
    Adams Rubble: It was a reset buttton
    Adams Rubble: and my friend appreciated what had just happened:)
    Adams Rubble: why wallow in the negative of the moment
    Adams Rubble: grab the positive energy instead
    Pema Pera: It is surprisingly difficult at first to just watch thoughts, without preference, without chasing one and avoiding another, without judgment; our mind is like an auction or market place: anything that comes up we tend to evaluate and hang price tags off of, effectively.
    Adams Rubble: Sophia, yes to the importance of other people to make us more aware of what we are saying. Like looking in a mirror while taklking
    genesis Zhangsun: to Adams: yes and also in the way you were able to recognize something fundamental about reality at that moment as opposed to being stuck in a fabrication (your slow project) of what that moment could be
    Adams Rubble: :) Pema
    Adams Rubble: Is that wu wei?
    Pema Pera: it's certainly related
    Adams Rubble: I sort of think of wu wei as falling into awareness
    genesis Zhangsun: "our old friend wu wei " as Wol says :)
    Pema Pera: judging is an added kind of action, a type of doing, that can be dropped to get not-doing, wu wei -- overly or unnecessary judging, that is; of course we do need to make natural judgments, like driving on the right side of the road and such


    A few pieces regarding APAPB fell together for me...
    genesis Zhangsun: going back to APAPB
    genesis Zhangsun: so appearance includes inner and outer appearances
    genesis Zhangsun: thoughts and physical appearances
    genesis Zhangsun: and it is is about appreciating both
    genesis Zhangsun: seeing both
    genesis Zhangsun: but attaching to neither
    Adams Rubble: yes, Gen seeing all the appearance, not just aprt of it
    genesis Zhangsun: and see that they are all contributing
    Adams Rubble: but hard to see the inner of strangers
    genesis Zhangsun: all nonthreatening, can be include in your experience
    Adams Rubble: but then it is knowing it is there
    Adams Rubble: what we share with fellow beings
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we do see appearances similarily, as shared experience
    SophiaSharon Larnia: although can not see it
    Pema Pera: on one level, strictly speaking, each phenomenon or appearance is different for each of us, each moment; and yet there is a lot that is shared
    Pema Pera: like sitting here around the "same" pond together
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Pema Pera: while each pond is conjured up as pixels on screens thousands of miles away from each other
    Pema Pera: as for "nonthreatening", also when appearances are threatening, the "threat" perceived itself is an appearance
    Pema Pera: and as such can be nonthreatening!
    genesis Zhangsun: yes perhaps what I meant to say is all included in appearance
    genesis Zhangsun: which is quite radical!!!
    Pema Pera: we don't need to add fear to create fear of fear -- we can just stop at fear
    Pema Pera: yes, VERY radical!
    genesis Zhangsun: this is the self cleaning oven :) concept we have talked about Pema
    Pema Pera: we can accept threat without being threatened by threat
    genesis Zhangsun: and what you referred to in " illusion of illusion"
    Pema Pera: yes, it's all inclusive
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have been wondering if appearance is another word for awareness
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (different word but smiliar idea)
    Adams Rubble: or is the apprectaion the awareness part
    Pema Pera: awareness gives rise to all that appearance as content of awareness
    Pema Pera: appreciation is also an appearance :)
    Pema Pera: and so is lack of appreciation
    Pema Pera: or disinterest, etc
    Adams Rubble: the appearance of APAPB :)
    Pema Pera: and yes, we can appreciation our, or others', appreciation too!
    Pema Pera: *appreciate
    Pema Pera: appreciate the presence of appreciation of appearances :)
    genesis Zhangsun: what I find so radical about it is that it heals the gap for me in the sence of outer and inner
    genesis Zhangsun: into one fundamental reality
    genesis Zhangsun: it also presents a groundless "ground"
    genesis Zhangsun: one that does not require cultivation
    genesis Zhangsun: or action to maintain it
    genesis Zhangsun: just see it
    Pema Pera: yes, the move in phenomenology, to see all that appears in any form as just phenomena, is an amazingly radical starting step
    Pema Pera: much more amazing than most students or even professors in phenomenology seem to realize . . .
    genesis Zhangsun: "plain as the nose on your face and too mundane to see it" :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but are appearances being seeing itself? The illusion of appearance seem to have a functin, to me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: why the illusion
    Pema Pera: illusions are appearances too . . .
    Pema Pera: and there is the question who is seeing (hearing, etc) all those appearances? Normally we would say "I do that" but if we play as Being, we can say "Being does the seeing, hearing, etc" -- and what Being sees is of course also Being, in the form of appearances.
    genesis Zhangsun: also if you see inner and outer appearance as one fundamental reality there is no subject and no object
    genesis Zhangsun: no self
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, no subject without an object
    genesis Zhangsun: appearance as the groundless "ground" makes playing as being possible
    Pema Pera: what we normally call inner and outer involves objects in both cases, like a stone we see and classify as an outer object, and a fantasy or memory which we call an inner object; in both cases we normally deal with the subject/object split
    Pema Pera: yes, the presence of appearance is all that is given, no extra ground
    genesis Zhangsun: but the question is do we see really see appearance as appearance?
    Pema Pera: a focus on the presence of appearance helps counteract our habitual focus on the meaning or content of appearance
    Pema Pera: and that helps to see appearance as "sheer appearance"
    Pema Pera: as just "what is there"
    Pema Pera: the presence of appearance
    Adams Rubble is thinking about all the abstractions
    Adams Rubble: I am just slow in grasping them
    Pema Pera: can you give an example?
    Adams Rubble: It was the sheer number of words flying by, not any particular one. Sometimes seems just a changing of word order
    Pema Pera: I always like to go slow, and to retrace our steps . . . .
    Adams Rubble: But looking back, the not making judgments about content of appearances stands out as a useful thing to ponder :)
    Pema Pera: like returning to the sentence APAPB, I can spend a life time on unraveing the many layers of meaning there . . . .
    Pema Pera: yes, and that is the same as the exploration I suggested to

    you two days ago
    Pema Pera: to just watch thoughts come and go, independent of their meaning or imputed value
    Adams Rubble: maybe that is why it stood out :)

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                                 In Complete Silence for 10 days

    The Guardian for this meeting was sophia Placebo.

    Pema Pera: Fox, if I may ask, have you played with the 9-sec approach yet, the brief breaks a few times an hour, to drop what you have to see what you are?
    Fox Monacular: Yes, I have played it for a few days
    Fox Monacular: it's a very interesting kind of mini-meditation on the awareness of the present moment
    Fox Monacular: and, as always, I find it hard to just 'be' - I'm practicing diff kinds of meditation, and also read a lot about buddhism
    Fox Monacular: so I realize how many preconceptions I have)
    Pema Pera: that's a great start, almost the end of it all :)
    Pema Pera: when we see our own preconceptions, we actually don't have to drop them . . . seeing is enough
    Pema Pera: when we really see them . . . in practice we oscillate, seeing, forgetting, seeing again, etc . . . but over time we can learn to see more clearly and more steadily
    Pema Pera: "dropping" can have various meanings"
    Pema Pera: the simplest is to really get rid of something, but the more subtle one is to get rid of your attachment to it
    Pema Pera: actually getting rid of something is almost impossible . . . and not necessary either
    Pema Pera: and yes, when really seeing, that implies no longer being bound by it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is shocked by the notion of not dropping it
    Pema Pera: Sharon, in meditation, we often try at first to "drop" thoughts, but in fact, just watching thougts it much better, just letting them be, watching how they arise and disappear, like watching the waves on the beach, leisurely
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I've known this to be true, but haven't brought it up
    Fox Monacular: I got introduced to vipassana in a quite intense way - having never tried meditating, I went to a 10 day silent retreat... I learned more about the mind I think than during my BA and masters togehter:))
    Fox Monacular: definitely, I though of leaving the first 10 day retreat on about day 5... and then I talked to the teacher, and realized why I thought it wasn't for me.. I'm very happy I stayed
    sophia Placebo: how the time pass in those 10 days fox?
    Fox Monacular: oh, it passes in different speed...
    Fox Monacular: first few days you just slow down from your 'normal' speed
    Fox Monacular: and you only practice anapana - meditation on breathing
    Fox Monacular: so it's vrery strange
    Fox Monacular: then on about day 4 you start vipassana
    Fox Monacular: and that's when all your chronic diseases and usual phobias and dislikes all resurface:)
    Fox Monacular: so many people have all sorts of breakdowns, you see people crying, or laughing... but you can't talk to them:)
    Fox Monacular: last couple of days are the best
    Davina Bazylinska: What did the teacher say to you to get you to stay past Day 5?
    Fox Monacular: she basically said that the mind and the body are both resisting this change, and they find usual habitual excuses
    Fox Monacular: like 'i'm sick, it's not for me, i'm not ready and so on
    sophia Placebo: so the first step is to break the resistant to look inside by enforcing the brain though distracting it from surrounding by breathing
    Fox Monacular: so it's like the decision is not really coming from me, and I should regain control over myself

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